How NOT to Fix Forward Head Posture: The Futility of Chin Tucks
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- čas přidán 20. 10. 2020
- Chin tucks are not a good way to fix forward head posture that results in O/A joint compression. This is because the forward head posture does not occur in isolation from the rest of the body and your body's postural stability and balance system.
You can't relax sub-occipital muscles if the posture of the body will not allow them to relax, and it's the pelvis and ribcage/spine position that dictates the position of the neck and thus forward head posture.
Importantly, upright function depends on proper sensory inputs from your vision, feet, stomatognathic and vestibular systems, all of which are required to navigate ground and space effectively and without compensation.
When the system gets disordered, or in Postural Restoration terms, to heavily patterned (left AIC, right BC, PEC etc...) your neck will suffer the consequences as it's used for breathing, stabilization, and trunk rotation in ways that it shouldn't be. Further, when our sensory system no longer gives the brain accurate positional information, the neck will tighten as a protective mechanism.
The result is often a forward head posture as your body has to compensate in three different planes of motion. This is all quite normal and understood. What is not well understood is that a forward head posture can not be corrected if the pelvis and ribcage are not restored to a neutral position and stabilized appropriately.
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pritrainer.com/pri-left-aic-r...
Hey there, my name is Neal Hallinan.
The purpose of this channel is to help people understand and resolve chronic muscular and joint pain, primarily through the discipline of Postural Restoration.
As someone who lived with chronic pain for many years of my life, I know how debilitating and isolating it can be. But I also know it can be resolved.
I hold the following credentials:
Postural Restoration Trained (PRT)
Strength and Conditioning Coach (CSCS)
Licensed Massage Therapist (LMT)
Amateur Historian (AH, my own self-designation)
I live and work in the great state of New Jersey, USA.
I offer one-on-one training as well as online consultations via Skype. Feel free to e-mail me at Nealhallinan@gmail.com for more info.
/ neal_hallinan
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Subscribe to my channel here: / @nealhallinan
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For an example of typical exercises for a beginner program, you can look here:
pritrainer.com/pri-left-aic-r...
Please note, this is quite generic and not sufficient for everybody!
For further information about Postural Restoration defined patterns, check out these videos and blog posts.
pritrainer.com/left-aic-pattern/
• What is the Left AIC p...
• Introduction to the Ri...
pritrainer.com/right-bc-pattern/
• RTMCC Pattern Basics
pritrainer.com/right-tmcc-pat...
I have had multiple chiropractors and physical therapists have me do chin tucks. I’m dealing with occipital neuralgia. Every time I do chin tucks, they hurt my occipital and suboccipital muscles so bad! It is so hard to get these professionals to understand that those do not work for everyone. Your video made me feel way better.
Neal, your channel is undeniably one of the best and most refreshing ever. Thank you.
I am literally bypassing my GP and physiotherapist now and following this channel. Thank you so much, this information is life transforming to say the least. Very very grateful 🙏
You’re amazing! I cannot thank you enough for creating these videos and educating everyone on PRI! I finally truly know how I can start to fix my self ( my lateral pelvic tilt/posture) and now understand the body mechanics that have caused all my pain for the past 6 years. You are a god send .. for a lot of us I’m sure! THANK YOU A MILLION TIMES!! Please don’t stop educating!! ❤️ would love to meet you in person some day, I live in NJ as well!
Thank you for the kind words, Brooke.
Thank you for this beautiful & important reminder to stress down the chain! (I’ve only ever seen this recommended to clients laying down as a part of their strengthening routine, not as a chronic / all-the-time postural goal.)
I’ve always felt intuitively that chin tucks weren’t good for me. No wonder - I have a reverse cervical curve and unstable atlas. Thanks for helping me understand! I would love to have better posture one day 🦋
Same!! I permanently messed up my neck and jaw so much worse aggressively following the chin tuck routine my physical therapist drilled me about when I was seeing him for Tmj. But insurance only covered that so he focused entirely on head neck and shoulders so it didn’t do a damn thing for stabilizing everything BELOW my neck
what helped? i have the same issues
Glad you tackled this! Thanks for this video
Will you do a follow-up video, or do you already have one, on the right thing to do? I know this is my issue. I can feel it without question. Thank you.I also want to mention that I am subscribed with notifications, but I did not get a notice about this video. Glad I happened upon it.
I’ll explain my story here for anyone that needs a bit of the dark side to chin tucks. Oh trust me. When he said it’ll cause you serious problems. He was not kidding.
So I had terrible posture for a solid 6 years due to boxing, and desk jobs.
Once Covid came through I said I’m going to take this time to correct my posture, away we go. I started slow doing stretches, some strengthening weaker muscles etc etc.
Well fast forward about 1.5 years and my shoulders were amazing. The pain in them was completely gone. Sadly I did end up getting shoulder spurs from correcting my rolled in shoulders but that was due to the poor posture.
Now with my shoulders being good, I wanted to get my neck in order. There was a great improvement in my forward head posture once correctly my rolled shoulders but it was still there and noticeable.
So what did I do. Chin tucks. Lots of them. Chin tucks. Chin tucks. Chin tucks. Literally every Damn video “chin tucks”. Even professionals that have MANY subs “chin tucks” ya.
Do them. If you want vision problems, SCM pain so unbearable that you can barley breath, swallowing issues, and a nerve compressed that it sends pinching pain to your tonsils, tongue and throat.
And I wish I was joking but I’m not.
And that was my issue. My chin after all these stupid tucks was going naturally to a looking up position.
It started with the SCM pain. Literally unbearable tightening. Which would get worse just from breathing. Then I developed swallowing issues. A weak swallow, felt like stuff was going down super slow. Ended up getting scopes and all done because of that with everything coming back negative. TMJ? Yea mine got about ten times worse. I started seeing black dots and stars in my vision all the time, oh and the best was when a nerve got compressed and my tonsils would get a shooting pinching pain, sometimes my throat some times it was my tongue.
Ya it’s been great.
So I paid a decent penny to see a chiropractor and he said the same thing this guy said but in a more stern fashion. “Why the fuck are you doing anything with your neck”
Same thing this guys said “ most people don’t even need to stretch their neck, the only time you should be doing anything with your neck is if you have mobility issues”.
So life lesson learnt. Leave your neck the hell alone.
He pulled out a full spine and broke it all down to me.
Same thing this video is saying.
Your spin is all one link. When the bottom is pulled in one directly it then pulls the top with it.
Long story short. Leave your neck the hell alone. Luckily all my damages aren’t permanent. But from what I’ve learnt from him, and reading they very well can be if you do it bad enough.
How are you feeling now?
Me!
So basically work on strengthening and balancing everything below the neck and it will in turn help the neck into proper place? I've been chin tucking myself into pain too and quite frankly, fuck that shit. It DOES do more damage.
I fucked up my neck the same way. and j have vertical heterphoria (misaligned eyes needing prism lenses i only got after 31 years of vision issues and head tilt) and hypermobile joints. Absolutely useless ligaments.
My spine is so messed it up it feels like my heads trying to twist off my body. My shoulders are numb and useless and uneven and I can’t keep my balance. Neck crunches, I’m always turned jn on myself so I can’t get the bridge of my nose to stop blocking my peripheral vision on the left eye. Neck crunches all the time, hips impossible to keep even, and if I lurch forward wrong there’ll be this intense THUNK at the base of my skull. My sleep is ruined, it’s hard to think, my body’s an uncoordinated mess, and my jaw keeps trying to pull back and retract into my fkn skull.
The scm pain and wildly unstable sternoclavicular joints are unbearable
Just. Don’t mess with chin tucks. I’m sure they’re useful for very specific situations but dont destroy your cervical spine I like did trying to follow medical advice till your atlas went so. Far forward chin tucks turned into chin drop and it felt like my head was trying to flip upside down
@@kristiniandolo3809 I wish I’d heard of the muldowney method (or even known I was hypermobile) before a PT started me on chin tucks and other tmj stuff focusing from head to shoulders. Meanwhile every recommended person/book/whatever to look into from others who have been at this longer than me hammers home the point that you HAVE to stabilize your pelvis and spine and get SI joint problems under control or any work you do further up the spine will just undo itself
this is gold material. subbed !
Im completely agree, I learn the hard way. The best thing to do chin tuck is lying down with your lower back in neutral or flat.
was hoping and waiting for this video :) :) :) danke danke danke Neil!!
Excellent video!!!
Very informative. So I have a hypolordosis (Straight lumbar) according to the MRI, although there is a curve. I also have a straight cervical spine, according to upper back MRI too. Both due to muscle spasm. What should I do? Been having chroni low back pain for 7 years, and chronic pain over C7 for 2 years + neck hump. Any recommendations?
Keep going and you are a good explainer
I find I do a lot of this arching when reading and writing because I start going forward with a head and then I arch it up to look up. What can you do to improve or I should say less than the amount of looking down when reading and writing?
i learnt that in order to stop your body from rotating left , youll have to stay on your left foot, left but cheeck active, right tricep active, left canine in front of the right canine and lower the the right canine, so youll actually feel a lot of air getting into your left posterior rib cage and right upper chest cause your entire right side of the body will get into extension and at some point youll feel that with every breath your body starts moving from side to side only by breathing
Not sure what you are trying to describe with the canines, but yes, air does move us. It just doesn't move into the left posterior rib cage and right upper chest very well due to left AIC right BC right TMCC pattern.
This is so great. Love when you are holding a laugh about gentleman’s demonstration and pelvis going forward :D Excited!
I did kind of laugh when I saw it.
Thank u for this video.
Sir I have a loss of neck curve. My occiput hurts and tinnitus is bad. Chin tucks flare up my TMJ pain.
I am happy to know from you about the pelvis n rib cage correction. Where do I get these exercises from?
Kindly help.
@Neal Hallinan
Great explanation Neil.
I realized after a long time trying to fix my neck that what you say seems to be as you state in your video, the issue is usually lower down in the pelvis/throacic area. I have reach a stage now where I feel the issue, for me, is lower down in my pelvic floor which is why I dont want to try anything with the neck until I've fixed a pelvic floor issue.
My pelvic floor issue seems to be what you describe about left pelvis falling forward and consequently the left mid thoracic area having flatterned causing the lower ribs to flare as they can't retract due to too much concentric activity around that mid thoracic area.
I feel a 'tugging' sensation especially and most intensely in my left testacle and perineum area. I think the testicular muscle and perineum muscles are trying to pull the lower ribs down and back due to the flare in the lower ribs along, in conjunction with the midthoracic area tightness, it feels like a sharp sensation when doing this.
Do you have any advice on how to best use the testicular and perineum muscles to pull the pelvis back and lower ribs down? bearing in mind I've already spent 100's of hours on left hamstring, left adductor and left Glute medius.
Do you have any dental issues? Gum disease, tooth infection?
@@Vegasomg yes I wear dentures
@@ruebenandrews9914 i had a tooth infection that I hadn't dealth with in the past 2+- years and couldn't chew on the right side. It was about the same time I started having issues with my erections and I was 23. (basically it was soft and couldn't maintain it properly).
I still have to go for another session to close it up, but even after the 1st day of the root canal treatment I started feeling waaaaay better. I haven't been this hard in 2 years probably.
Neal has talked about it before. If there is a tooth/vision issue, it's going to be hard for the muscles to let go. Also humans have 3 "floors". Occlusal, pelvic and the one we step on. If one is out of balance the brain will perceive all of them as unbalanced.
@@Vegasomg yeah I have problems with erections too, I know the feeling, ever since I started this PRI adventure. Haven't had one in over 6 month to be precise. I think its messed with my internal wiring, lucky im not married or with anyone right now.
Problem with me is that I had some invasive prodecures around inguinal area on the left side so its weakened that side even further than what normal people undergo due to the pattern.
I think my main issue is the procedure caused organ stickage and scar tissue adhesions which I believe is out of teh scope of anything that PRI can possibly offer, although I might be wrong on that. But if I hadan't had the surgery id be a boss by now.
Do you have a pelvic floor dysfunction?
You are amazing.
What if you have dorsal cifosis and normal lordosis (lumbar and cervical)and head forward posture?
thank you!!!!!
Chin tuck works for my chronic upper back and neck pain. It's just my anecdotal experience. Obviously it will not work for everyone, but we should be open minded enough to at least try it.
Yeah it seems like one of those exercises that’s probably an excelent tool to have in your toolbox but for very select things and has to be used with care and with training to do it right. It’s just a disaster that it’s so many physical therapists and such’s first line of exercises to start people on. It’s encouraging seeing comments here from folks whose therapists correctly assessed them and did things in a more sensible order instead of just going “if the chin tucks aren’t helping you aren’t doing them hard enough”
I’m genuinely really glad to hear they help you though. Anyone getting relief from neck pain is cause for celebration imo
Neal, this is absolutely fantastic. My PT has gotten me to a point where my symptoms are more of flare ups than every day misery. She is correct that I need to get everything below the neck right before messing around too much up top. My subocciptals are like a hair trigger that can be set off by the lightest of stretching and it gives me a lot of anxiety. I plan to give your basic plan a go and see if it can help me. I thought I was alone. There's so many videos out there about how to get over these symptoms that involve chin tucks and subocciptal stretches that just don't work for me. I felt like I was alone without anyone who understood until I found these videos.
I'm glad the video helps put things into perspective. You may need a Postural Restoration provider to resolve the situation below the neck.
Thank you for this video. How do you restore cervical curves of you have text neck?
Did you ever figure this out? I've apparently lost the curve entirely...
Can chin tucks cause brain stem injury? I was doing some pretty intense chin tucks earlier and have this pain going from the upper right base of my head down my neck, have been feeling weak and very unbalanced ever since and also nauseous. I'm pretty concerned.
When My tongue was released, I can't closet My mouth and My jaw shifted to the right, and i felt the conection with de pelvis. I think has to do with de hyoid bone. If not trying to put the jaw back but the hyoid bone still is dangerous ?
How do I fix it then
Hi, I have exactly what you said in this video - extremely tight sub-occipital muscles and an excessive neck curve. It has caused TMJ, which has then caused ringing ear and many eye floaters. My neck does not feel tight, only the back of my head. I was also told to do chin tucks. My hip flexors are very weak as well from sitting down all day and I have snapping hip syndrome as well and clicking knees. Should I be doing the exercises that you mentioned in the video, such as pelvic stabilization? I'm so frustrated, I've had this all for 4 years.Thanks!
I would seek help from a PRI therapist. With all those symptoms, it will be complicated.
I have been told to put a flex band behind my head , put my arms against the wall and pull my head backwards against the flex ban,!! Is this move incorrect?.
I developed severe whole-head headaches and sinus problems after starting chin tucks. Does this make sense"? Are there nerves that area that are autonomic and affect the sinuses?
Yes, it makes sense. Just "Google" cranial nerves, autonomic nervous system, and O/A joint. Observe how much function is located in the base of the skull/neck area.
What about doing seated chin tucks?
Thanks for this video, now I understand what my condition is. I’ve been struggling for a while. How do I sleep with this issue? I have cervical pillows but they make my neck hurt, if I sleep on the side it also strains. I have no been resting the last couple of weeks because what is talked about in this video is happening to me throughout my whole sleep cycle. Does anybody have a solution, im tired of all these symptoms due to my bad posture
So what do i do? I'm fed up of living in pain and burning my money on physios who tell me to do chin tucks and other by the book garbage that isn't recommended according to you. My whole posture is horrible and i dunno how to fix it
The only solution for me seems to be getting a rope and hanging from it. The pain is unbearable, i habe extremely forward head posture from years if gaming, i struggle to breath despite only weighing 164 lbs at 5"11. Can anyone help me please?
What position should the head be at the bottom, during, and eccentric part of a deadlift?
It'll depend on how "neutral" you keep your pelvis and ribcage. If your technique is based on lots of extension and creating intra-abdominal pressure, the neck will simply be overactive no matter what. If you strive to keep a more "neutral" spine (from a PRI perspective, not from a lifting perspective) your neck will be less engaged and more optimally positioned. I know you asked about the head, but the head position is dependent on neck position. Overall, optimal head position (whatever that may be) is dependent on optimal neck position, which is dependent on your particular technique..
I knew there was a subconscious reason why I'm unattracted to some people's voices...
I have a bad neck, I noticed my right hip is a little funky (going a bit tilted upwards I think, I can feel pressure in my right ribcage -at the bottom-most rib, slightly above the same line as my belly button but backside, maybe the mid-thoracic region is called that) and on top of that my voice has been utter shit, I thought it might have been adolescence
i check out all the three symptoms you told
Dear Neal,
Could a deviated septum potentially cause PRI-like issues? Considering that deviated septum leads to mouth breathing, bad tongue posture and forward head posture
What of i have a small receded jaw
What about doing chin tucks laying down? Doesn’t that get rid of the pelvic rotation problem your discribing?
I just started pt for reverses neck curve and pinched nerve and was told to only do while laying down
I’ve been seeing a Blair chiropractor for 3.5 years, focusing exclusively on cervical spine. His belief is that correcting the neck will correct the rest of the spine. But I frequently feel like my pelvis needs to move differently, like it’s stuck in an off position. I also have rib pain most days....usually I attribute it to C4 being out. I don’t have full range of motion going right ear to shoulder. I’m starting to wonder if I’m missing something...
All of Postural Restoration is about correcting the neck, but we never do it through touching the neck. The neck won't correct unless the "system" allows it, and unless the pelvis and rib cage are in a "neutral" position, the neck will just yo-yo back and forth between "temporary release" and "stuck".
@@NealHallinan this lines up with what a friend of mine with EDS who’s actually gotten access to a diagnosis and treatment has told me when describing their cranio-cervical instability. They never do anything direct with the neck when it’s like that just relax with gentle heat and do their routine to coax their si joints back into cooperation, and then once they start moving their neck tends to fix itself
pls one question about forward head posture ....are SCMs tight/short (overused) to pull head forward and up? ... or are SCMs already lenghtened and weak/inactive?
(i heard Ron saying that about the weak left hamstring that actually feels tight, but isnt- coz lenghtened and inactive)
The SCMs are tight and overactive for many reasons, particularly the right SCM. It'll be used to stabilize/rotate the head/shoulder complex, to facilitate air flow into the restricted right upper chest wall, and probably try and help with torso rotation also. All muscles can be tight/short/lengthened/weak/hypertonic etc... in different planes of motion at the same time. SCMs are no different. So your question isn't straight forward. Just know that they are usually overused and need to be inhibited via thoracic flexion.
@@NealHallinan many thanks!!! :)
I have had neck straightening for years....chiropractic care for YEARS...good pain management but my neck has virtually lost all of its curve + some changes to vertebrae. Trying not to panic bc it has seemed futile. Have you seen PRI help restore the neck curve? Trying to find the right direction to go in...no PRI folks in my area as far as I can tell!
The other aspect - I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on this - my system is SO sensitive that if I go for a chiro adjustment + traction + PT exercises I am totally locked up for 1-3 days w/ pain and stiffness. High alert! Have you seen/experienced this? People don't seem to know what to do with me.
In other videos, it was said that the neck changes due to the chin and that causes problems in the pelvis and thoracic spine, but this video seems to be the opposite.
The chin is the jaw, and the jaw is embedded in neck muscle and controlled by neck muscle. People with mispositioned jaws (like in forward head posture) have generally lost normal cervical lordosis. Thus, the chin/jaw is dependent on cervical lordosis. You can’t change cervical lordosis by moving the chin/jaw.
When i make a double chin it brings my pulse back. I was diagnosed with bilateral arterial tos 20 months ago and when i bring my arms up or turn my head my radial pulse goes away. However after learning that making a double chin engages the deep neck flexors and extends the scalenes i applied it and found that it brings my pulse back in those positions. It has even allowed me to throw a baseball again. I would literally make a double chin through the throwing motion and the pain would go away.
Perhaps it temporarily opens up space in the front of your chest/clavicle, which is a good thing. Engaging deep neck flexors is good as long as the neck regains its curve. But if you just do chin tucks, and the neck is still not "neutral", it's less likely to "stick" and you continuously have to do it.
@@NealHallinan So what other ways would you suggest opening up that space in front of clavicle?
@neal hallinan just want to follow up and see if you know of anything that will open up that space
Top video! How can the neck not side bend 20-30 degrees? I Don't get it.
When it loses its lordosis, and thus straightens, it can’t sidebend. Same as when the spine gets stuck in extension, you lose the frontal plane.
Neal, I just saw your video and I have a few questions: once hyperlordosis and hyperkyphosis are corrected, will the nerd neck correct itself?
And also, how to correct hyperlordosis and hyperkyphosis? By building muscle?
(sorry for my bad english, i'm french but i hope you will understand me)
Have you any images of before / after nerd neck corrected by working on hyperlordosis and hyperkyphosis, please ?
Is my neck forever going to hurt from a 3 level spinal fusion ? I feel like the game is over for me , is there hope ?
I have this awful head position after a visit at the dentist where she reconstructed two molars 🦷, I cannot recover my normal posture now 😢
But. Have forward head and a lump on the back of my neck
Hi,you also mean the chin is not parallel to the ground by saying arching the base of skull ?
I'm not sure I understand the question.
@@NealHallinan hi, thanks for replying.. I mean this problem causes the head to be towards the sky a bit ? Like 1 inch.. I mean exactly the same postition when you look at the sky..
The way the chin tuck is demonstrated in this video is incorrect. Physiotherapists don't show you to lift your chin up like he is doing. Of course, that would cause O/A joint compression. To do a proper chin tuck your chin slightly goes back; making a double chin. It would have been better if he had started the video saying, "This isn't the way to do a chin tuck." If you are taught to do chin tucks by lifting your chin up then yes, the info he is presenting is correct.
100%agree with you. I have never seen anyone do /teach a chin tuck the way Neil is showing
How I was taught was against the wall. And the top of my head is going straight up as I'm tucking my chin
Yes, its the other way around i mean your chin goes kind of back rather than going up and your neck goes kind of straight and back rather than forming a curve like he is showing
and this can cause dizziness and vertigo?
I can't say for sure, but it wouldn't necessarily surprise me that for someone it might.
@@NealHallinan thanks. I might need to work with u soon. thaks for all u do
Wops made my forward head posture worse recently😩
Please Persian farsi subtitle
Well I do have neck head forward and I just can not get rid yes teeth need doing but it must be something else I feel had physio few time made no difference in fact they tell you to do the chin tucks it was a waste of time over 6 months now all drs do is give pain killers it’s the spasms I can not stand need new mattress may help I do not know what too do now dentist too dear
oh my! all the patients i have had do chin tucks over the past 29 years! yikes.
I'm sure everyone has done them at one point or another. We do our best.
So can’t we just do chintucks laying down?