This has been a major struggle for me too but I find that the Orthodox Church consistently says the most graceful things I can expect the hypothetical true church I seek to say without going too far. Every allowance is made except to allow the truth not to matter. It's as fuzzy as we should expect as limited human beings but as certain as we should expect too. I share the concern of Austin and Dr Ortlund but I can't justify not accepting a truth that can set me free just because I am worried others won't. If I went that far, then I'd go so far as to blindly accept perrennialism since most of my loved ones are not Christian and I pray for all of them and all unbelievers everywhere. The Orthodox Church continues to look, sound and walk like I have to expect the Church I seek to look, sound, and walk.
@@AccordingtoJohn Thanks John and well said. I really appreciate what you do, and I like your obvious caution and I pray that by God's grace you never overstep in the manner you hope not to. I for one am always edified by your work.
@@FirstnameLastname-py3bc yes. I’ve great respect for Austin, but in the end his worthy questions & honest critiques are highly subjective & contingent, not on an outside authority to which he must subject his thoughts, but his feelings & impressions. Now that counts to a point because what else have we? But trying to adjudicate specific Orthodox doctrines is an exercise is futility. The discussion with the heterodox & Latins ought to be on the foundation claims, in the former case of the nature of the Church, in the later on the nature of authority & primacy. It seems to me.
@@traceyedson9652 for both nature of Church and authority are the case, they're not Christian at all, they're sectants literally, they have fundamental issues Catholics are not just Orthodox but schism was between Patriarchs and issue is only that (plus lies about who led the councils) That's how I thought until I by almost a coincidence didn't stumble upon Jay Dyer's debate with Ybarra. That fundamentally changed my views On everything Ahah And by the way - it was Austin's interview with Jay Dyer, and wow, it changed my life starting from that period So thank you Austin and then Jay and Ybarra for changing my mind completely Ahah
Something that you said around the 31 minute point reminds of the verse in John 21:20-23 where Peter asks Jesus 'what about him' and Jesus says 'just follow me'. I find myself asking 'but what about them' a lot, but then this verse comes to mind.
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. - Matthew 7:13-15 The only reason "exclusivity" is a problem is because of the infinitessimal schismatic nature of protestantism and the modern protestant collapse of doctrine. 100 years ago protestants were exclusive to denominations this ended when it started giving birth to restorationist abberances like mormonism and jehovas witness who were formed in large part due to the frustrations of denominationalism. This created a panic for mainline and has led to the embrace of such things as charismaticism as a "unifier." Important to remember the ecumenical movement was foisteted and encouraged by outside antichrist forces (occultists, spiritists/theosophy, freemasonry, etc.) As Austin states salvation is union to Christ. As we know Orthodoxy is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, the body of Christ. How is it possible be joined to Christ apart from his body? Become Orthodox ☦🙏🏻
Excellently said! I struggle with this exact thing with my girlfriend who is an Evangelical who went to my Orthodox Parish with her Bible and her marker disappointed that the service wasn't someone explaining Bible verses. She acted like it was not how church is supposed to look. I told her this is the Christian Church and she might think we are the same in faith but are really not. I was Roman Catholic before converting and did not understand there was one true Church. The more I learn the more It makes sense that Orthodoxy is the true Church. My girlfriend talks about we need to go her Church that she never attends and the Bible is her book that she never reads; nor with context of which it was written. Protestants like to Lawyer their way into heaven but as we learn many of these ideals flys in the face of true Christian doctrine. Has it been anyone else's experience that the weaker their faith the stronger people cling on to something they only have a sentimental attachment to?
@@theworldbeforeus1775 You have a relationship to tend, it seems. Not sure how you’ll raise children with such disparate ideas on fundamentals. God bless!
Protestantism has tired of denominations. Now they form mega-churches” in metro areas with various campuses that function like a diocese & parishes. Never settled, they.
@@theworldbeforeus1775 Give her time, pray for her, and most importantly love her. Orthodoxy can be very jarring for someone that only knows low church modern protestantism. Feed her information slowly and as she asks. Lead by example, as she sees that Orthodoxy is working on your soul and making you a more loving partner, she will come around God willing. God bless 🙏🏻☦
What if God has a plan for Austin to get his theology degree, get married, and gain a larger audience before he finally begomes Orthodox so he can bring more people into the Church with him.
The question of whether there is salvation outside the Church relies upon a few other questions that must be answered first, namely: 1. What do we mean by "the Church"? 2. When did the Church actually start to exist? 3. Is God constrained or restrained in any way? 4. Would you say that people could have experienced salvation either before the Church actually existed, or if they had no knowledge of Christianity or the Church after the Church came into existence? These questions are in no particular order of importance, but I believe they must be answered before we can properly begin to answer the question of whether there is salvation outside the Church.
St Paul in his letters is constantly dividing what is The Church and what is not. Our problem today is that heterodox when readying this automatically consider their church to be The One Church. So if we first take it that the first 100years there was One Church and those outside of it have their salvation at great risk or worse have purposefully split The One Church; the question then is why would this position of The One Church would have changed? God is all powerful and His judgment is just so if He grants salvation to heterodox He can because He is God, I don’t argue against this. However I do believe there continues The One Church even today as The One Church is to unite us as One Body of Jesus Christ
I would say this. "We know where the church is and not where it isn't" is the wrong mentality. We know where the CHurch is and isn't, but we don't necessarily know how God will work on those outside taht and whom he will or will not have mercy on. The Scriptures are pretty clear that all will be judged based on the knowledge they have.
This was a great conversation, John. You did really well. Sure, you talked a lot, but you kind of need to when discussing ideas that can so easily be misunderstood or misinterpreted. Both of you were gracious and a pleasure to listen to, so thanks!
Great interview! The theological tension between you two was very strong, yet you both managed to remain polite and respectful. It appears that Austin and probably many other Protestants would place themselves in the 'schismatic' category (as opposed to 'heretical'), and don't believe schism excommunicates them from the true Church. Of course, us Orthodox view both heretics and schismatics outside the Church, but it's interesting to see things from their perspective. Incorrect doctrine doesn't seem to be as big a problem for them, since they believe that there will be constant 'reform' in the church through the Bible. This mentality contrasts greatly with the Orthodox notion that Christian doctrine never changes, only becomes more explicit with the rise of surrounding heresies. Also, the Orthodox view the Body of Christ as a very specific and material spiritual community, and not in an abstract sort of way.
But even Orthodox don’t say that all within the Church (you & me) will be saved. “Be faithful until death.” My Protestant community I was raised in taught this and were accused of legalism. Now they often water it down to a pseudo-pop-Calvinism.
When Austin said that he and his fiancee are getting married in June it reminded me of the lyrics from the Hank Williams song "Just Waitin'": The congregation's waitin' for the preacher Preacher just waitin' for the groom The groom's just waitin' for the June bride And the bride's just waitin' for June
The Orthodox church has saints that were baptized not in a church but in martyrdom baptized in blood...mostly because it was so difficult to participate in the sacraments in the early church history.
Or even some that professed faith upon witnessing a martyrdom and the. were martyred immediately, never even entering a single moment of Christian life other than their martyrdom.
The fact of these fuzzinesses & inconsistent nuances is a sign of the Evil One. He is the author of confusion, not the Church operating in the Spirit. Also, a tough pill for evangelicals (& many Orthodox) to swallow - I still am choking at times! - is the need for humility and to lay aside our feelings. Is the Church what the Orthodox Faith says it is? If so, we embrace it, and then mold our lives to Her, not vice versa.
“Holy archimandrite, their souls obviously feel that they are acting correctly in believing in Christ, in honouring the Holy Mother and the saints - whom they invoke in their prayers. That is why, when you tell them that their faith is illegitimate, they will not listen to you… But if you told the people that they are right in believing in God, that they are right in honouring the Holy Mother and the saints, and in going to church for services and praying at home, that they are right in reading the Word of God and all the rest, except that here and there they have a few incorrect theories which should be corrected, then everything will be just fine and pleasing to God, and by the Grace of God, everyone will be saved…. “God is Love”, and that is why a sermon needs to always spring from love. Only then will the preacher and the listener both benefit. But if you censure them, then the souls of the people will not listen to you and no benefit will be achieved.”
Watched the whole thing, this was helpful. I also am looking for more information on the thought that since protestants are saved, why should they change to Orthodox/Catholic/whatever you think is the true church?
I think you are looking at it too simplistically, even if it is possible for a Protestant to be Saved it may not be a good idea to be a Protestant. If you are a Protestant you are cut off from the Sacraments or Holy Mysteries such as Holy Communion, Communion strengthens you in the Faith, and forgives everyday little sins. Communion unites you to Christ. Confession gives you guidance and helps you repent and turn to Christ. Sure, with perfect contrition your major sins can be forgiven without Confession, but how many people have perfect contrition. What I am saying is that by being a Protestant you are putting your soul in a dangerous position. You strive for Salvation, but you neglect many great Graces that come through the Holy Mysteries or Sacraments. Which means your Salvation is less sure. It also means you could of advanced to much greater Holiness with way less effort. Also there is a big difference to say it is possible for a Protestant to be Saved and saying a Protestant will be Saved. For instance it may be possible for me to become Holy Roman Emperor, but very improbable. Just because it is possible for a Protestant to be Saved doesn't mean that it is not a good idea to become a Catholic or an Orthodox.
I recently converted to Catholicism after being an evangelical Christian for 35 + years. I was definitely saved and filled with the spirit as a Protestant, and thank God for all the blessings I received there. I think many protestants have strengths that the Catholic and Orthodox Church could learn from. However, for me, personally, the Eucharist was the big draw for me to convert. Also, the sense of sacredness in Catholicism and the emphasis on church history has been very meaningful to me. One of my daughters and son-in-laws recently converted to Orthodoxy. I love the Orthodox Church as well. If there had been one close to me, I might have gone that direction over Catholicism.
I think this has to do with how God knows our hearts. So if I were to remain protestant even though I feel led by the Spirit to Orthodoxy, and my intellect assesses that to be sensible, for me it would be sin. If another person has never been in that position, even if it is true that they are outside the fulness of faith, I think we have good scriptural basis to hope God will not judge them based on what they did not know. I also think all of us avail of this mercy with regard to the many many things we do not know. But I am not a theologian - this is just my thought on the matter.
@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 Your answer is good, but incomplete. If a well intentioned Protestant, remains in the Protestant Faith, he will non-the less miss out on the Holy Mysteries or Sacraments and the Fullness of the Faith all of which despite of the Mercy of God, will result in a lesser degree of Holiness than had the individual fully converted to the One Church.
@@adolphCat Yes so in life there will be consequences, of a missing-out kind, or of less sanctifying progress than might otherwise be the case? Very true.
Salvation is in Christ alone. It occurs when one believes the gospel responding in Repentance and faith. People could join to any local church and still not be regenerated by the spirit of God.
Austin seems to have a kind and gentle heart. I pray that he will someday become Orthodox.
This has been a major struggle for me too but I find that the Orthodox Church consistently says the most graceful things I can expect the hypothetical true church I seek to say without going too far. Every allowance is made except to allow the truth not to matter. It's as fuzzy as we should expect as limited human beings but as certain as we should expect too.
I share the concern of Austin and Dr Ortlund but I can't justify not accepting a truth that can set me free just because I am worried others won't. If I went that far, then I'd go so far as to blindly accept perrennialism since most of my loved ones are not Christian and I pray for all of them and all unbelievers everywhere.
The Orthodox Church continues to look, sound and walk like I have to expect the Church I seek to look, sound, and walk.
@@AccordingtoJohn Thanks John and well said. I really appreciate what you do, and I like your obvious caution and I pray that by God's grace you never overstep in the manner you hope not to. I for one am always edified by your work.
Excellent comment.
Church may say some things that you won't like. But what you like or don't like isn't the best judgement of what is true and what is good...
@@FirstnameLastname-py3bc yes. I’ve great respect for Austin, but in the end his worthy questions & honest critiques are highly subjective & contingent, not on an outside authority to which he must subject his thoughts, but his feelings & impressions. Now that counts to a point because what else have we? But trying to adjudicate specific Orthodox doctrines is an exercise is futility. The discussion with the heterodox & Latins ought to be on the foundation claims, in the former case of the nature of the Church, in the later on the nature of authority & primacy. It seems to me.
@@traceyedson9652 for both nature of Church and authority are the case, they're not Christian at all, they're sectants literally, they have fundamental issues
Catholics are not just Orthodox but schism was between Patriarchs and issue is only that (plus lies about who led the councils)
That's how I thought until I by almost a coincidence didn't stumble upon Jay Dyer's debate with Ybarra. That fundamentally changed my views
On everything
Ahah
And by the way - it was Austin's interview with Jay Dyer, and wow, it changed my life starting from that period
So thank you Austin and then Jay and Ybarra for changing my mind completely
Ahah
Something that you said around the 31 minute point reminds of the verse in John 21:20-23 where Peter asks Jesus 'what about him' and Jesus says 'just follow me'. I find myself asking 'but what about them' a lot, but then this verse comes to mind.
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. - Matthew 7:13-15
The only reason "exclusivity" is a problem is because of the infinitessimal schismatic nature of protestantism and the modern protestant collapse of doctrine. 100 years ago protestants were exclusive to denominations this ended when it started giving birth to restorationist abberances like mormonism and jehovas witness who were formed in large part due to the frustrations of denominationalism. This created a panic for mainline and has led to the embrace of such things as charismaticism as a "unifier." Important to remember the ecumenical movement was foisteted and encouraged by outside antichrist forces (occultists, spiritists/theosophy, freemasonry, etc.)
As Austin states salvation is union to Christ. As we know Orthodoxy is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, the body of Christ. How is it possible be joined to Christ apart from his body?
Become Orthodox ☦🙏🏻
Excellently said! I struggle with this exact thing with my girlfriend who is an Evangelical who went to my Orthodox Parish with her Bible and her marker disappointed that the service wasn't someone explaining Bible verses. She acted like it was not how church is supposed to look.
I told her this is the Christian Church and she might think we are the same in faith but are really not.
I was Roman Catholic before converting and did not understand there was one true Church. The more I learn the more It makes sense that Orthodoxy is the true Church. My girlfriend talks about we need to go her Church that she never attends and the Bible is her book that she never reads; nor with context of which it was written. Protestants like to Lawyer their way into heaven but as we learn many of these ideals flys in the face of true Christian doctrine. Has it been anyone else's experience that the weaker their faith the stronger people cling on to something they only have a sentimental attachment to?
@@theworldbeforeus1775 You have a relationship to tend, it seems. Not sure how you’ll raise children with such disparate ideas on fundamentals. God bless!
Protestantism has tired of denominations. Now they form mega-churches” in metro areas with various campuses that function like a diocese & parishes. Never settled, they.
@@theworldbeforeus1775 Give her time, pray for her, and most importantly love her. Orthodoxy can be very jarring for someone that only knows low church modern protestantism. Feed her information slowly and as she asks. Lead by example, as she sees that Orthodoxy is working on your soul and making you a more loving partner, she will come around God willing. God bless 🙏🏻☦
What if God has a plan for Austin to get his theology degree, get married, and gain a larger audience before he finally begomes Orthodox so he can bring more people into the Church with him.
The question of whether there is salvation outside the Church relies upon a few other questions that must be answered first, namely:
1. What do we mean by "the Church"?
2. When did the Church actually start to exist?
3. Is God constrained or restrained in any way?
4. Would you say that people could have experienced salvation either before the Church actually existed, or if they had no knowledge of Christianity or the Church after the Church came into existence?
These questions are in no particular order of importance, but I believe they must be answered before we can properly begin to answer the question of whether there is salvation outside the Church.
This channel needs more recognition and subscribers. Your interviews are always on point and very interesting. God bless you, John! Christ is born!
Truly he is born! Thank you for your kind words, all glory to God
John, I'd like to thank you for your patience. You did very well in this interview.
St Paul in his letters is constantly dividing what is The Church and what is not. Our problem today is that heterodox when readying this automatically consider their church to be The One Church. So if we first take it that the first 100years there was One Church and those outside of it have their salvation at great risk or worse have purposefully split The One Church; the question then is why would this position of The One Church would have changed? God is all powerful and His judgment is just so if He grants salvation to heterodox He can because He is God, I don’t argue against this. However I do believe there continues The One Church even today as The One Church is to unite us as One Body of Jesus Christ
Καλά Χριστούγεννα,παρακαλω πολύ προσθέστε υποτιτλους
I would say this. "We know where the church is and not where it isn't" is the wrong mentality. We know where the CHurch is and isn't, but we don't necessarily know how God will work on those outside taht and whom he will or will not have mercy on. The Scriptures are pretty clear that all will be judged based on the knowledge they have.
“The Spirit listeth where He will,” said the Lord.
This was a great conversation, John. You did really well. Sure, you talked a lot, but you kind of need to when discussing ideas that can so easily be misunderstood or misinterpreted. Both of you were gracious and a pleasure to listen to, so thanks!
Thank you! All glory to God!
Great interview! The theological tension between you two was very strong, yet you both managed to remain polite and respectful. It appears that Austin and probably many other Protestants would place themselves in the 'schismatic' category (as opposed to 'heretical'), and don't believe schism excommunicates them from the true Church. Of course, us Orthodox view both heretics and schismatics outside the Church, but it's interesting to see things from their perspective. Incorrect doctrine doesn't seem to be as big a problem for them, since they believe that there will be constant 'reform' in the church through the Bible. This mentality contrasts greatly with the Orthodox notion that Christian doctrine never changes, only becomes more explicit with the rise of surrounding heresies. Also, the Orthodox view the Body of Christ as a very specific and material spiritual community, and not in an abstract sort of way.
But even Orthodox don’t say that all within the Church (you & me) will be saved. “Be faithful until death.” My Protestant community I was raised in taught this and were accused of legalism. Now they often water it down to a pseudo-pop-Calvinism.
When Austin said that he and his fiancee are getting married in June it reminded me of the lyrics from the Hank Williams song "Just Waitin'":
The congregation's waitin' for the preacher
Preacher just waitin' for the groom
The groom's just waitin' for the June bride
And the bride's just waitin' for June
The Orthodox church has saints that were baptized not in a church but in martyrdom baptized in blood...mostly because it was so difficult to participate in the sacraments in the early church history.
Or even some that professed faith upon witnessing a martyrdom and the. were martyred immediately, never even entering a single moment of Christian life other than their martyrdom.
Go Austin. Go Orthodox.
The fact of these fuzzinesses & inconsistent nuances is a sign of the Evil One. He is the author of confusion, not the Church operating in the Spirit.
Also, a tough pill for evangelicals (& many Orthodox) to swallow - I still am choking at times! - is the need for humility and to lay aside our feelings. Is the Church what the Orthodox Faith says it is? If so, we embrace it, and then mold our lives to Her, not vice versa.
Looking forward to this! Quick question-what exactly do you mean by the hashtag #salvationoutsidethechurch in your description?
I might change it but it is basically the topic we discussed: is there salvation outside the Church or how do we interpret that statement
“Holy archimandrite, their souls obviously feel that they are acting correctly in believing in Christ, in honouring the Holy Mother and the saints - whom they invoke in their prayers. That is why, when you tell them that their faith is illegitimate, they will not listen to you… But if you told the people that they are right in believing in God, that they are right in honouring the Holy Mother and the saints, and in going to church for services and praying at home, that they are right in reading the Word of God and all the rest, except that here and there they have a few incorrect theories which should be corrected, then everything will be just fine and pleasing to God, and by the Grace of God, everyone will be saved…. “God is Love”, and that is why a sermon needs to always spring from love. Only then will the preacher and the listener both benefit. But if you censure them, then the souls of the people will not listen to you and no benefit will be achieved.”
Watched the whole thing, this was helpful. I also am looking for more information on the thought that since protestants are saved, why should they change to Orthodox/Catholic/whatever you think is the true church?
I think you are looking at it too simplistically, even if it is possible for a Protestant to be Saved it may not be a good idea to be a Protestant. If you are a Protestant you are cut off from the Sacraments or Holy Mysteries such as Holy Communion, Communion strengthens you in the Faith, and forgives everyday little sins. Communion unites you to Christ. Confession gives you guidance and helps you repent and turn to Christ. Sure, with perfect contrition your major sins can be forgiven without Confession, but how many people have perfect contrition. What I am saying is that by being a Protestant you are putting your soul in a dangerous position. You strive for Salvation, but you neglect many great Graces that come through the Holy Mysteries or Sacraments. Which means your Salvation is less sure. It also means you could of advanced to much greater Holiness with way less effort. Also there is a big difference to say it is possible for a Protestant to be Saved and saying a Protestant will be Saved. For instance it may be possible for me to become Holy Roman Emperor, but very improbable.
Just because it is possible for a Protestant to be Saved doesn't mean that it is not a good idea to become a Catholic or an Orthodox.
I recently converted to Catholicism after being an evangelical Christian for 35 + years. I was definitely saved and filled with the spirit as a Protestant, and thank God for all the blessings I received there. I think many protestants have strengths that the Catholic and Orthodox Church could learn from. However, for me, personally, the Eucharist was the big draw for me to convert. Also, the sense of sacredness in Catholicism and the emphasis on church history has been very meaningful to me. One of my daughters and son-in-laws recently converted to Orthodoxy. I love the Orthodox Church as well. If there had been one close to me, I might have gone that direction over Catholicism.
I think this has to do with how God knows our hearts. So if I were to remain protestant even though I feel led by the Spirit to Orthodoxy, and my intellect assesses that to be sensible, for me it would be sin. If another person has never been in that position, even if it is true that they are outside the fulness of faith, I think we have good scriptural basis to hope God will not judge them based on what they did not know.
I also think all of us avail of this mercy with regard to the many many things we do not know.
But I am not a theologian - this is just my thought on the matter.
@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 Your answer is good, but incomplete. If a well intentioned Protestant, remains in the Protestant Faith, he will non-the less miss out on the Holy Mysteries or Sacraments and the Fullness of the Faith all of which despite of the Mercy of God, will result in a lesser degree of Holiness than had the individual fully converted to the One Church.
@@adolphCat Yes so in life there will be consequences, of a missing-out kind, or of less sanctifying progress than might otherwise be the case? Very true.
Salvation is in Christ alone. It occurs when one believes the gospel responding in Repentance and faith. People could join to any local church and still not be regenerated by the spirit of God.
I hope you read that mate... Go for it. I do like that, but you may get visits.... if you know what I mean.
Is there really "A ORTHODOX CHURCH" ?
I think we can say, ORTHODOXY/Singular..but ORTHODOX CHURCHES/Plural, seems more accurate to me.