HOW TO BEAT GRAVITY WHEN USING THICKENED EPOXY!
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- Last week I got beat, no way around that one lol ;-) That said, working on boats is all about problem solving as each project is unique. So this week instead of showing the process of fixing the problem, I thought it would be more helpful to put together a short list of the things I did differently to help ensure success when laying up thickened epoxy and gravity is not on your side (especially in cooler temps :-) Some of these tips also apply to working with epoxy in warm weather for those that live in more spicy climates ;-) Hope this helps with your upcoming boat projects!
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Happy to see you back working on boats. Just completed some wet core repairs and did a lot of epoxy work outside. I did my laminations when the deck was around 50. My epoxy was cold from the night temps getting down around 35, so I learned an easy way to warm up epoxy resin and hardener is to place the cans in a bucket and add hot water (bath water hot, not boiling) until the cans just float off the bottom. You don't need too much water as you want the cans to stay upright. I place the bucket into the marina's outside sink and it works great using hot water. The resin and hardener warms up in a half hour, so no long waiting and it pumps easier. I also keep a pan of cool water handy in case I want to slow the curing process. On warmer days, I place a half inch of water in a paint roller pan and set my mixing cop in the water to slow the cure, if the resin kicks early, I pour a little cool water from my water bottle into the mixing cup to prevent a fire. Still can't use it, but avoids a fire and controls the problem and reduces cleanup, as I can usually manuver the cup to where I can set it down on the ground safely. Request for videos: please show us how you work, not just talking about it.
If my epoxy is cold, I'll mix it a little, and then toss it in the microwave for a few seconds. Thins it out to mix easier and like ya said, gives it a head start on curing. On the other hand, I've also made up smaller pieces of "pre-preg" where I'll lay out a square foot or so of cloth on wax paper, saturate it completely, then cover it with another sheet of wax paper, roll it up, and toss it in the freezer. That way if i need a small non structural patch, I don't have to go through the hassle of getting all my materials out- all I need is a pair of scissors. Never had a problem with either of these 2 methods, used both on boats and aircraft.
How long will it keep in the freezer?
Does it stink up your house?
The problem with pre-thickening resin is that in order to get a proper and full strength bond, resin chains and hardener chains need to be brought together. Thickeners get in the way of the 'mating' that has to happen to develop full strength. Warm the resin and hardener as you did to lower the viscosity, work with manageable batch sizes, and make sure to stir resin and hardener a full two minutes before adding any amendments. The goal isn't to get epoxy on the boat, the goal is to get a strong bond and a strong curing epoxy on the boat.
They make heated "coolers" that we use in the wind energy field, we plug them into our trucks and stick our resin and hardener in them, also do work as a cooler in the summer. They are handy
Genius tip on warming the epoxy prior to mixing! Living in Scotland with low temps just now I was worried about my epoxy sliding/slipping on the vertical. Once applied with a little silica, the epoxy was was gaining viscosity all the time due to the lower temperature, resulting in zero slippage.
Cheers for your tips.
All the best from Scotland
Ewen
Good advise on pre warming the resin and probably the hardener so there's not a cooling when the 2 parts come together. Also getting the material at least partially thickened prior to catalyzing makes a great point. Finally, they call stand time slaking to get the chemistry of epoxy going prior to spreading out. Never thought about viscosity thinning out due to the thermal reaction affecting your initial guess of amount of thickener needed when mixing. Great points!
Projects are jigsaw puzzles, each one is different and full of its own issues. Glad you found the right fix on the second try! If you get it right in the first three attempts, I feel like that is a win on new projects!
Hello Andy- just ordered a boatworks sweatshirt t shirt and cup!
God-bless you
Excellent tips. Thank you
Man, that's a LOT of great info and things you may not even think about. Thanks
I downloaded your resin guide just last week. Priceless! Thanks for pulling that info together.
The best advice I have heard in a long time.
I love your channel and very informative.
Hi Andy, just wanted to thank you, I was actually having this exact problem! This video was perfect! I thought I had some faulty products, it was just temperature
I always add the thickening agent before catalyzing any resin. Works for me
Instead of preheating the resin, one can pre-cure the resin with 5% to 15% hardener. It makes the uncured epoxy warmer and more runny. After some time: Add the filler. To get to correct ratio: Add the remaining hardener, and mix again.
It's worth mentioning that you can make many premixed: Resin + (5% to 15%) hardener + filler. The reason is that the amount of hardener is so low that the mixture will nerver cure.
You can make some experiments to figure the correlation between pre-cure time and how much filler you can save.
Caveat,
The final mix will have a shorter pot life.
VERY IMPORTANT: Use a scale!
Andy we never stop learning, great tips and video 👍😁
Just for the fun put, back the Christmas decoration on the trees behind you 🤣. it is a pity to stand empty. Keep up the good work. I really enjoy your videos👍
Probably my top favorite in the boat section. Good stuff!
Very good video this week. If i didn't live in Florida i would build a cooler box ( heater Box) to store epoxy products and maybe paint too. Use a light bulb in the box to keep stuff warm. The work looks like your making progress finally. Build warmer box when you run out of ideas for a video.
Have you tried Methacrylate adhesive to fill voids like what you are working with? Mix up a batch, apply it with a pastry bag, install the new Cusa board over it, clamp it in place with some cleats and screws, wipe up the squeeze out.
Once upon a time, working towards an A&P in college, it was a requirement that the epoxy cabinet had a 60 Watt bulb burning at all times to keep the epoxy warm. Recipes change so I'm not sure if that's still a thing but it does make epoxy much nicer to work with.
I’m a proponent of using a scale instead of using the measuring cup. I mark down the weight of the resin before adding fillers and wait to add the hardener until the end. If a 2:1 or 5:1 epoxy is used, it’s super easy to add the hardener. If my resin is 130 g, I mix in part of my fillers and then, when I’m ready to do the job, add the 65g or hardener.
On my workshop bucket list has been a warmbox to keep my resin in.
Pre thickening can work but you have to be very mindful to thoroughly mix. That is why total fair , awlfair use to different colors so when mixed it changes color when mixed properly. rare that i use it, but when i use bondo i get a different color cream hardener to show when mixed properly. Some epoxy hardener companies use die in there hardeners that helps show what hardeners are being used so you can keep an eye on your new workers.
Thank you for the tips
Love your openness. Thanks.
I use a heating pad to preheat my resin for my 3d printer.It works great
Great follow up video! Although we are using the great science in epoxy, there is a real art to it; thanks for trying to help with the art in this explanation. A difficult and complex subject that I think you did a great job of exposing.
I think your videos are the best. I learn something pretty much from every video. What I've done in the case of the dreaded saggggg. I used a piece of laminate (Formica) or whatever the latest trade name is. Or if I need something with a little less flex. I use that stuff the epoxy table people use. Just a quick spray PVA. Of course you have to plan ahead and have your bracing/ clamps and everything cut to fit and ready to go. Saying all that, I probably would have done the way you did the first time. Like you said, keep it stupidly simple. Which leads me to one of my favorite sayings, " you're going to pay for your education one way or another. Through mistakes or actual schooling of some type. I will be speaking to you soon on patreon. I'm re-doing a 25 ft. Grady White.
Always the best from Andy at Boatworks today.
The Guru of Glass has spoken! :P Looks like you ironed that last hiccup right out; great looking transom so far, informative as always.
I'll never forget having to grind out 8 hard to get at fillets that sagged on me last year... Good thing the die grinder could get in there. I never thought pre heating would be that helpful, next time I will. Just mixing it to the required viscosity while its at a higher temperature than it will harden at must be the thing that does it.
Nice to see you up n running andy
Excellent advice and timely for an upcoming project... Thanks!!!!
We called that a two stage gell. A real problem with small radius and stiff glass. Slow gell times can work aganst you. Always mix resin then additives. Expoys are very dependent on proper ratio and complete mixing. The added cost or benifts of expoys does not stop at puch.
Your always giving great advice and the videos are excellent. I have some rot inside my stringers on a 38' flybridge that I'd like to correct... do you have anything on that?
Ever notice the hardener doesn't get thick when its cold? I keep the catalise in the fridge and wave the resin you get a feel for it after a few gallons.
The general rule of thumb on chemical reactions (eg. epoxy curing) is 10 degrees C (18 F) warmer doubles the speed of the reaction.
Great video just subscribed
Great Video
Not using epoxy but I always pre thicken my poly resin. Just to a point it's still mixable with the mek and then add a final thickening before use. I use a bonding past that's already thick and mixes fine so don't see why should cause any issue.
Same issue with heat tho, when cold mix can feel good, as warms it's to thin lol. I'll add a touch more powder if so.
Wide shallow pans make for longer pot life. There is less thermal mass at any given point in the pot.
You could just over-thicken it knowing that it will get a little more viscous as it heats up before it cures.
Quick question, hope you see it. After finishing applying all layers with laminating resin, do i apply one coat of finishing resin without the mat/cloth? Or i also need layers of mat/cloth to put with the finishing resin? Thanks in advance love your videos
Always good info and content. Thanks Andy!
I dig point 3, something easy to forget about when one has to work outside for some reason...
I enjoy your videos, very helpful.
I will starting a project on my 16ft fiberglass runabout and would like some consulting help with the steps and materials to use.
How can I arrange that? Thank you.
Thanks !
1. Please say "Cake Pan," instead of bucket/cup. Just as easy to stir on a big flat surface. At least use a roller pan, but a 9x12 cake pan with high sides is better. Or a cookie sheet, except drippy.
2. Careful on pre-mix as you said. Follow what manufacturer says.
3. Mini-pumps are great. But, should the mix be catalyzed for Total Volume after adding amendments ?
I added liquid dye to poly & had to increase the catalyst to match total volume.
4. About Warming -- Keep all liquids inside the house at 72° and take to shop when needed.
5. "Heater Cooler" a great idea from another comment. Just a heating pad in a picnic cooler.
Thanks Again.
Like your work and boat your making for the girls. I’m in same boat.”When can we go for a boat ride
.Thanks for your smarts. I would like to send a picture of my 1975 Starcraft 302 6 seater 16 foot.
Thanks for your help and info. Just wondering do you ever wonder if the amount of fiberglass you add will make a difference in the floating characteristics of the boat.
Question? Has anyone had experience thickening their epoxy with sanding dust? Which of course consists of cured epoxy, fiberglass, and epoxy paint? Im referring more for filler versus with fiberglass.
32C in my workshop today. That's almost 90F. Definitely small batches.
I had always followed the instructions and occasionally had problems with the addition of the thickeners after the two components were mixed.Tthen I realized that the west system G6 is a thickened resin and only mixes with hardener in the nozzle. It always worked fine, so now I don’t worry and put some thickener in before adding hardener. Works well.
Hello completely off topic. i have a boat in the uk its called a wilson flyer, it has a windbreak/flying bridge on top of the cuddy which is made with fibreglass, its a bit long and protrudes over the deck meaning less room to cast. i want to cut about a 1-2ft section out of it but then need to rejoin it so it looks original and has strength to. could you advise how its best to stick them back together or could you do a demo video please thanks Dave
Yes I know about the large batches I learned that the hard way
Question, is it possible to lay-up fiberglass on a aluminum hull?
Interesting that after all these years you're still learning.
I assume that the same tips apply to us polyester resin aficionados.
My questions are not necessarily related to this video but I’ve been watching so much of your back catalogue that I can’t remember which one it was. Firstly, how deep is too deep when it comes to sanding out and polishing scratches in gel coat? If my scratch(es) too deep what’s the best way of getting a colour (yes I’m in the UK 😊) match for the boat hull. I’m colour blind so doing it by eye won’t work. Is it best to contact the manufacturer?
Great vids by the way. I’m fascinated despite not yet having had to do any of this stuff yet. I’m about to buy a new boat with a scratched hull and the quotes for a “pro” job are ridiculous.
FYI: Your plywood ceiling probably at best will reflect about 30% of light. White paint is closer to 90%. You will drastically increase the amount of light in your shop if you paint the cealing.
Peel ply? You had mentioned using that. Still a possibility?
Yeup 🙈🙊🙉🤦🏻🎯
Thank You. I’m working with the same resin you used. I might go to Patreon and sucscribe for your advice. PS (your little daughter is so sweet.)
Jay
I was looking for a consultant to help me restore my 27 foot sailboat, it has a long thin crack below the waterline and a large part of the deck that needs to be re-cored… I have a general Idea how to get these projects done thanks to this channel but as a young man (22) I thought it would be best to get some professional eyes looking at the project. I will be looking into your patreon!
Thank you
Sir can u help me? how can I make epoxy Hardener Thicks
I had some repair work done to my boat and all the repairs sunk in? What caused it??
Is there a way to calculate the weight of the epoxy and coosa after the transom is finished? With the Armstrong bracket
and two big outboards, Will you have to change the waterline stripe?
Great vid!
I have a two foot crack right on the bottom of my boat on the port side. It was hidden by the bunks when I bought the boat. It is definitely through the gel coat so I was planning on dremeling out the crack down to the fiber glass to make sure the hull is not actually cracked. I cant see any damage from inside the hull but I'm not playing games with a crack in the bottom of my hull. When I looked at it closely it looks like the boat was slid onto a bad set of bunks and the metal bracket scraped it. The edges of the crack look almost beveled. However there is a impact mark across from the crack with tiny spider cracks coming of it but circular. What should I use to fill this crack if the fiberglass is in tact or even if I have to do some glass work. I'm worried everything except the glass will just fall out. I will be working on the boat in my driveway on the trailer and me underneath it whatever I use is going to be fighting gravity big time. I live in mid Florida and Ill be doing the repairs in 90 degree heat no doubt. Hopefully I can find a couple days without humidity being to high to effectively patch this crack.
Would much rather have viewed the work than just listening to you. However, you provided good info.
Fair enough :-) I was really trying to avoid the exact same video 2 weeks in a row with the key points being spread out over 20 min or so. Figured this kind of format would be more helpful and to the point for folks searching the topic in the future
Andy, would it be possible to put your mixing bucket into an ice bath, when stirring - just to extend the available mixture time?
Done that many times with gelcoat, so yup ;-) Just make sure it doesnt get below freezing
The logic of not premixing the silica doesn’t seem to add up when Total Fair is already thickened when you buy it. If you’re mixing your own putty just add the silica to the A side and the B side separate and then mix them together when you’re ready to activate it.
would you use coosa for motor mounts ? I am planing to laminate 3/4" coosa up and down/on the edge glassing it in and take 18" long 1/4" 3" angle stainless steel bolting it to coosa that the Chevy 350 Volvo inboard out board engine mounts will bolts or do you think i should use wood
With 500 Dromedille
Hi I here an old with 500 I am about to recover it consists of two hull an inner hull and is outer hull. I have divided it into two parts and remove the old foam that was in it and the old wooden plate that was in the hull and there are 7 fiberglass frames in it instead of foam. There is a new wooden plate at the bottom and in the aft mirror. But have a damage to my inner hull as it gets separated. It is inside the boat the so-called deck. But it can be made on the ideas side and then the part inside the hollow space of the boat when it is assembled. But am a little in doubt where the one I best for made the crack in the deck
Mikael Tjørnelund
How about Epoxy non sag??
Just curious, do you think keeping the mix cup sitting in ice water after you mix it would give you more working time? Inverse of a double boiler of sorts.
Cooling the mixture could help with working time but like Andy talked about leads to aplication problems. The epxoy creates its own heat, so the viscosity will change drasticly.
hello I always follow you can you tell me how to dilute the gel coat to spray it with the gun? thank you
Use Duratec patch booster
Look thru his videos I’m pretty sure he has a video on spraying gel coat.
Usually the cans of gelcoat tell you what to use to thin and what percent, if not call the manf.. most of the time its styrene used to thin, since thats whats in there already,, percentages vary on your ambient temp and spray nozzle size because you still need to maintain a minimum thickness to make sure the gelcoat can set properly. If you can get a cup gun(kinda pricey) you don't have to thin very much or at all. Harbor freight makes a cheap LVLP spray gun with a 2mm tip, so maybe 2% - 5% styrene added will thin it enough. Mix some small batches and doing tests is the best way since everyone's scenarios are different
Mix in some styrene :-) Just be sure to wear gloves and respirator when handling and mixing it
@@boatworkstoday acetone?
Have you tried using an electric hand kitchen mixer to mix the epoxy? It speeds up the mixing, giving more working time.
Keep your epoxy depth to 2 centimeters. Cups are begging for trouble.
👍!!!
🙂👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I'm Disappointed... I waited 1-week for you to ramble about mixing tips?