Loud doesn't make you soung great either - these days (pub cover band going more than 30 years) we choose to practice and gig quietly. Loud gives you an adreniline buzz but quiet gives you the precision - In our early years we were heard oner 2.5 miles away but these days we practice and gig far more quietly and we play better as a result. Dynamics plus capturing the spirit of a song is key.
John Rogers depends on the music my dude. If you’re playing technical stuff then I can see where you are coming from but if you’re in a doom band, shoegaze band, or some sort of punk sub-genre then being loud is kinda the point. Lots of people don’t play covers and being super proficient isnt really necessary in certain contexts.
@@channtastic Agreed - in our early days the buzz was everything. It used to take from Thursday night practice to Saturday morning for my ears to stop ringing - every week - and gigs were louder Take care though - sadly our lead guitarist has significant high frequency hearing loss these days.
We did a gig at a working men’s club in Reading where there was a limiter. Luckily our bass player had been there before and he knew how to deal with it. There was a kitchen off to the side of the main hall and he got us to run all our power on long extension leads from the sockets in there which were on a separate mains circuit. The limiter regularly tipped red but the band played all night with no interruption:).
As a sound guy, have your stage volume as low as possible and let your monitors do the work. Drums: try “darker” cymbals and know how to bring energy without hitting hard. Bass: You don’t need the watts! Get yourself a good 500w amp with a 2x10 and a DI out. Use your monitor. Guitar: get an attenuator! You get to crank your guitar and get the tubes hot without the volume and... USE YOUR MONITOR!
On a somewhat related note: I was session drumming for a band, during rehearsals the guitarist was too loud so I mentioned it politely. He said his guitar is actually very quiet but it just SEEMS loud due to my position in the (20m2) room. Admittedly a creative and metaphysical argument that might have convinced Deepak Chopra, but if it sounds too loud where I am sitting in a small room, it means it's too loud. Needless to say he didn't change his setting. So I mention it again after the next song, being clear that I cannot hear the vocalist or brass section. This went on a few times, and he ultimately refused to turn down at all. I can only advise boycotting guitarists like this. Once I got up to leave he turned down. No arguing, all polite and friendly, just don't take that nonsense. After rehearsal the other regular band members thanked me, stating "its always the same". I had earned their respect, the guitarist was friendly afterwards and I got the gig as a regular session player. Moral of the story: don't accept warped ego as a reason for anything in a band, stamp that stuff out at the beginning politely and forcefully as best you can.
I've never understood that really. Some people want to preserve their "sound" so much that they're willing to cripple the entire gig/band. I've noticed that it's usually either really young people who haven't yet learned that not everything needs to be dead-perfect to have a great show, or old guys who like to say, "well I'm old school, so that's how I do it."
I played with a guy who always brought his Marshall 100w stack. He had to have his sound. We never had a PA that could compete with him. He was a douchebag as a person too. Control freak who although a good player was not worth the stress.
Yes as a general rule if I don't hear the lead vocalist, I usually try to come down. It is pointless trying to play over a lead singer or lead instrumentalist.
One thing I’ve learned from all my gigs is that you should be as quiet as possible while still being clear. I feel like many bands try to be as loud as possible without being abrasive. People hate too loud. So if you misjudge being as quiet as possible, people will ask you to turn up a hair. This is a better feeling than asking to be turned down.
When people’s ears can’t process the sound it’s too loud... When you get that crackling sound in your ears... and when blood starts oozing out of people’s ears...
Wow I felt my iq sink reading this comment and the answers below. As a musician healthy hearing is crucial to be able to perform well. U guys probably suck at what you do
I once had a friend hire me to run sound for his band's gig. It was a movie theater that had a sports bar and the band was playing the bar. Their amps and drums were LOUD and I had only the vocals in the PA. I think we got through two songs before the manager came over and shut everything down. I guess the owner of the movie theater chain just walked in and thought the band was too loud, so he just told the manager to get rid of the band. He went ahead and paid the band (and consequently me) - easiest gig I ever teched!
I had the exact same situation, except the gig got postponed "until the people leave the theater" - so like 2-3 hours. Needless to say, most people left and we had to issue massive ticket refunds.
After two years playing limiter venues, I've vetoed them for next summer and only taken nightclub residencies. I don't get paid enough to fight with flattened frequencies on my mic - OH HELL NO. Singing should be easy and battling to be heard at 65dB (when the room is louder than that at restaurants and bars!) is not my idea of fun.
My band and I pride ourselves on sounding as good as possible while being as least loud as possible. We play lots of bar gigs, and having been to witness other bands' bar gigs, there's nothing worse than turning up to hang out with some friends while listening to some music and checking out a band but you all have to just stand there shoulder to shoulder and you can't even talk to each other without talking directly into their ear because it's too loud. You're not going to impress people that way, you're going to chase them out, which is a disastrous result and the antithesis of what you want your band to do to people.
For Guitar players, lower wattage amps for more quiet gigs is critical. Most guitar players don't turn down because the sweet spots on their amps, where natural breakup starts to occur and the tone is the most responsive, is achieved by pushing the tubes harder, which means more volume. If playing an 85 watt Fender Twin on a low volume gig, the guitar player will NOT be happy with the tone by turning down the Master volume and cranking up the OD pedal. It's not what the amp was designed to do to "sound" like a Fender Twin, which is why that player bought it. I switched from higher wattage amps to a 15 watt, which solved the problem instantly. I was able to drive the tubes hard enough to hit that sweet spot, at a fraction of the volume. The amp can also now be mic'd giving the Front of House engineer a fighting chance at a good blend out front. Some guitar players complain they can't hear the lower wattage amps well enough to monitor them live. The rest of the band turning down, as you've outlined REALLY well here (Thank you) helps that problem. The other thing that helps is a guitar amp stand. You can angle it up so it's pointing more toward your ears (and less directly at the crowd's skulls) and position it closer to you (Sound Guys LOVE this). Since going lower wattage, I've actually started using two amps, run in stereo, on either side of me and just behind me. It's the best tone I've EVER had live as I'm completely immersed in the center of the spread and the volume is STILL far more manageable than a single higher watt amp. Oh yeah, It's also WAY easier on the back to carry a 20lbs 15watt amp than a 75lb 85 watt amp. My pedalboard is actually heavier than my amp now. Your back will thank you.
Cr8Tron I have. A Power Soak is not a bad option and certainly cheaper than a new Amp. Once I started playing more gigs where a high wattage amplifier has to be reduced in volume, it just made more sense to go low watts and not add another item to the chain and save my back in the process. But, yeah, that’s certainly an option as well.
@@munkduane I can totally understand wanting to avoid the heavy lifting. For a long time, I used to always just plug my VG88 directly into the systems (and use the amp/cab simulators in my presets). Not exactly ideal, having to hope that the monitors will be properly tuned every gig...but I'm sure my crooked back appreciated it, nonetheless. A less obvious problem (when running simulators) is the fact that there should still be some sort of power amp, to add a final coloration to all the presets (so that they sound more consistent). Still have yet to pay my friend, who's planning on eventually building me a custom one...but in the meantime, I'm using his mom's Yamaha G100-112iii that she's been letting me hang onto, which sounds great.
I downsized a few times, now playing a Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue, (NOT cranked) still too loud for some people, they're probably not into music, but just fear awkward silences... it's also funny to be told you're too loud before plugging in your amp.
@@sebastianwei7721 When running sound, I always find it entertainingly funny when a venue manager stops by to confront me about where *I* have the levels at, before I've even turned up the master fader at all. 🤣 Even if I already have the master turned up, I'll often immediately respond by briefly hitting the mute button, and exclaiming "SEE THAT!? It ain't me who's too loud." The look on their faces is always priceless. 😂👌
I don't think I've ever really seen any videos specifically like this before. Practical tips and advice for bands, with an actual band playing and demonstrating, with good sound. Good work Damian!
A good video might be around things like the etiquette of gigs, calling ahead with tech rider, how to soundcheck (what to soundcheck, tone wise), how to talk to the sound engineer, what to ask for in monitors, how to assert yourself. I've found these kind of things if you don't handle them correctly can totally ruin a gig and also your chances of getting booked again.
Are these limiters in venues a UK thing? I’ve never actually encountered one in the US. The best thing my band did for getting a lower stage volume was getting everyone on IEMs. Now we can run our amps really quiet but everyone can still crank their own volume up in their ears. It really cut back on the loudness war we had going on for a while there.
Never seen this in the states either. Usually venues my band plays at wants us loud lol. I think if this is a thing in the states, your band booked the wrong venue or your not the right band for that gig.
We have them in Spain too...only in tourist areas...one resort I play at, the limiters are set to 80dB, at the other 65dB (aka a hairdryer). As we play outside during summers, that 65dB includes all the ambient noise from traffic, people, other bars etc and usually peaks before we sing a note. It's awful and impossible to enjoy performing. Bands? Forget it. That's why I'm going back to playing live with my rock music in other countries. Limiters have been a thing in UK since the 90s but are not set as ridiculously low as these, I don't think.
These are in some venues in Australia, too. These are good tips, but often when venues have these, the place is gone in no time: a combination of the limiter threshold set way too low for bands to even play at a decent volume means that bands won't return, and often the limiter is an indicator that the venue was not originally established with live music in mind. I've never done repeat gigs at venues with limiters.
The best thing my band did to control volume is go fully digital. Two guitar players going direct with Headrush units, Bass player DI'd to our digital desk with bass amp emulation and electric drums. We use in ears, so no loud monitors on the stage. As a result, our stage is completely silent except for vocal and I can control the volume of the entire band with one Fader! We don't have these stupid sound limited things in Australia but where I live, there are a lot of smaller venues and volume is always a concern. In my opinion, it's a far better solution to this issue than compromising all your sounds and tone with gaffer tape and tea towels :/
Used to play a pub with a limiter in Gloucester, landlord just used to have a couple of really long extension leads from behind that bar, bypassing the limiter, everything up to 11 ;) #ProTip
You ever listen to My Bloody Valentine ( the 90s shoegaze band not the emo band) live in concert? I took my earplugs off during my favorite song and I have never heard anything so loud, but so beautiful. It sounds like pure raw electricity but in an organized way. Man it's on a one of a kind experience.
My Bloody Valentine / Bullet For My Valentine Similar name but totally different. BFMV play metalcore, but man, shoegazers MBV are capable of serious loudness! Such sweet, beautiful noise. One of the greatest bands ever...
Really loved this video. Extremely useful information and to the point. Every band and their mother needs to watch this. Thank you for what you do Damian! Much respect.
My college rehersal room had a limiter, we discoverd early on that the limiter mic was on top of an electrical distrubution box, two bike leathers and a hoodie took care of that, in 2 years nobody else on the course worked out how we managed to play so loud without tripping it, what else are you ment to do when they leave a 79 Marshall JMP in there? In all seriousness I understand why they are used, there is a very fine line, which is very dificult to walk, between good energentic volume levels and hearing damage. There are so many variables involed, but in the context of a rock band I still stand by the fact there is no finer feeling than a big valve amp flapping the back of your trousers. Even as a punter the thrill of a stack washing over you, palm mutes hitting you in the chest... its just epic, the 'magic feedback loop' I call it (guitarist hits chord, signal hits big amp, cab blasts it to audience, audience goes mad, guitarist gets the buzz, hits the next chord harder) Its a visceral expirence, Kemper's just aint the same... Ok thats my rocker rant for the evening... Really enjoying these videos, I'm learning a lot and really appreciate the time you take to make them, thanks Damian.
Mackie used to have these nice PA heads that were perfect for band practice. In the manual under problem solving it said something in the order of: Band Not Loud Enough? Practice.
Great video. Was booked to play a 60th birthday in a social club where the limiter was actually on the stage, rather than at the back of room. Would've been pretty tough to do but we managed to bypass the limiter by finding some sockets on a different circuit. Having some extra extension leads/reels is always handy!
Thanks Damian! this is the content i've been looking for years of. Being in a band and having to deal with frequencies, loudness, when and how to play. I find it really hard to understand it most of time because there isn't a lot of videos on youtube about it. I would definitely like to learn with more content like this! Thank you from Canada
Absolutely.. they get all the girls have all the fun and get to hit things for a living... damn them!! I’m kidding of course, whenever we get to a limiter sadly everyone looks at the drummer and it’s the first and biggest obstacle to tackle.. bass will always set it off the most but bass needs to sit in the mix. Meanwhile guitarists get away Scott-free lol
Re muffling cymbals: You can absolutely muffle cymbals similarly to drums (with tape, moongels etc). However, with cymbals, you should put the muffling towards the center and not towards the edges. The closer to the edge you stick your tape/moongel, the more of the sound it will kill, potentially making the cymbal sound like a trash can with zero sustain. Start from the center and then move towards the edges if you need to!
Also, the towel does not have to cover the whole drum, if you just put it across 1/3 of the drum and fix it in place with some tape or a clip, it will still do the job without killing the tone.
Depends on the venue. If there is a sound guy and he has everything miced - it's really up to him to control the volume. In a smaller club, if the drums aren't miced you can only go as loud as the drums.
DAN KABANUCK a lot of working musicians in the uk take active pa’s and keep costs down by doing sound themselves.. it’s doable just a pain in the arse.. some are as low as 90db and are a nightmare but unavoidable
Yeah we tried really hard to get a venue but none of them wanted to be involved for the bad light and when we tried stuff on our phones it wasn’t registering properly and wasn’t the right surroundings
As a bass player I use a ‘gamma v2’ if I feel the the venue requires it - they are often impressed that I’ve thought of it & it defo helps. Otherwise use a crate !!
My mates and I where very lucky early on. We ask a professional to come over and have a listen to us at a rehearsal. Unlike the normal fan base half drunk fans who praised us ..he calmly told us your too loud . He said we had lost our dynamics For the next year we would yell at one another throughout the gigs as a reminder to keep the volume down so we could push the volume at appropriate times this Keeping the dynamic of the tune.( It's what moves people) .we developed a good habit and the venue management loved it also .. Again Damien you've touched on an important subject ! Thanks ...you rock. Your info is brilliant.keep making live music better .its creating more work for everyone.
From playing all my life, starting in bars at age 16, and watching what seems like hundreds of bar bands across America over the years, if I could give young or all bands one single piece of advise it would be to control their stage volume and play quieter, hands down. Everything is better when you do. The music sounds better, the band can hear better and play tighter, the crowd can feel it on the dance floor but still be able to go back and order a drink without yelling to do it and mingle with their peeps when they want to. Perhaps most importantly all of these things make club/bar owners happy and your band more valuable to them, which is a very good thing.
I'm close to 70, and have tinitus... the loud bands I used to groove on, are now painful. I've no tolerance without hearing protection. I recently changed genres, one that doesn't work played loud. It's amazing to be able to sing with an electric band with out a mic on some tunes. In my experience, the rhythm section controls the volume. The last band I was in, the leader would scold me for being loud. I'd tell him to tell the drummer, who'd lose himself in the moment and get excited, play louder. It was the same in the previous band... the drummer again, would lose himself, take the bass player with him. When the bass gets loud, everything turns to shit. Everyone would then turn up and nobody could hear themselves, and in turn, they'd turn up more... When I played bass, I'd intentionally make my sound dull and fat, with just enough punch to cut through. I was often told to turn up by hammerheads in the audience... but the genre I was playing needed the front man to stand out. My job was to make him look and sound good, his fine guitar playing and lyrics clearly heard. Loud is for kids and hacks.
I pride myself on my band being the best "Sounding" but also the "Quietest" band around. I mean. It's live rock n roll with acoustic drums, so it's still going to be loud and powerful. But we're all on in-ears, and my drummers (I play with 3 different ones, depending on who is available for what) have learned that the norm for us, is playing with the "Skirt" as we call it (a modified towel that hangs down in a circle from the bottom hoop of the drum, killing all reflection off the floor, and calming down the bottom head) on the Snare drum, which is the worst offender usually, and also not playing rimshots and maybe some additional dampening on the top snare head. If we're playing a big outdoor gig, then we "unsheathe" the drums, but inside in the small rock clubs that we play at all the time. Frankly I really don't care if our snare sounds like The Black Album if it's stepping on everything else. I'd rather it sound like hitting a pillow with a ruler and have everything else sound great and be at a reasonable volume. Usually, it's the younger/greener drummers that have the toughest time accepting this. The more seasoned ones are either fully on board, or it was their idea to begin with! Lol. Plus, then we can crank up the PA a bit more too and get in that nice lush post-processed sound with a fuller low-end in the room rather than a thin sound that's all coming off stage rather than through the PA. I spend a lot of time getting nice delays on the vocals and reverbs on the toms and other instruments, it's a shame to have it all be a waste because of a gunshot snare. The one kid that I play with actually took a thin T shirt and stretched it across the top of his snare drum and put the head and hoop on over top of it. It's PERFECT for what we do in those small clubs. It sounds a little dead, sure, but he can whack away on it without compromising his style and his snare doesn't sound like a gunshot in a bathroom in those small reflective rooms we play in a lot.
This shouldn't be necessary. A venue/promoter shouldn't be booking bands if they have to compromise their performance. A simple ' hey guys can you turn it down a bit' works a lot better than pissing both the audience and the band off.
If you work your amp ( my preferance over modeling) it requires some volume. But live( all my years experience very little studio work besides construction) you want clarity. And headroom.
Never knew limiters were a thing in venues, are they only in places where function bands play? All the venues I've played at are proper music venues that have an average volume of around 110dB (I measured them coz I'm a nerd).
There must be technological solutions to all of this. We’ve been thinking about replacing drums entirely with sample pads, using an amp emulator for the e. guitar, in-ear monitors so there’s no noise on stage, etc.
If the natural volume of the drums is too loud (no pa) I'd switch to electronic drums. Those come with volume knobs. Getting a good tone at lower volume is easy. You can work that out at home then adjust a little for the room.
something else, is that people always complain that the guitar players keep turning themselves up, but why do we do that? Because we can't hear ourselves. I think in ear monitors if you can afford it are a god send. Just something to think about :) Thanks for the vid, some good thoughts and tips there.
limiter...the bane of my life (and we aren’t even a particularly loud band!). Having a background in acoustics, it is scary to see how many of these places also have them set wrong!
The only "limiter" at any gig I've ever played is in the rack with the compressors. My suggestion...Start playing larger shows! If there ever was an issue with volume, they dealt with the soundman, NOT the band! Seriously, if your playing in places that screwed up, they should only book DJ's. Sorry, not sorry.
If you play in cities like London or around the UK that’s not possible. Plus musicians who make a living should be mailable.. I’ve played stadiums during sports events where we have needed to be wary of certain levels
@@DamianKeyes Wow! That's really messed up! When you make the move over here, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Nowhere in the U.S. does anyone expect an acoustic drum kit to suddenly develop a volume control. Over there, I think the only reasonable answer is to go with Roland V-Drums, & processors with good cab IR's like the helix, Headrush, or another like type effects units. At least you can do that now days, eh? Ridiculous that it's that unrealistic in the U.K.
I've heard a lot of loud bands that just about had that attitude. None of them were as good as they thought they were. Being able to adapt to the room to give the audience a great experience is an essential skill. Especially for drummers. Had a lot of gigs where they just kept on slamming the cymbals until everyone's ears bleed. Completely disregarding that the sound of the whole band could be so much better if they just took one foot off the gas. Limiters might or might not be a good idea. But untreated, reverberant, shitty PA owning venues are real and a big part of what every up and coming musician has to deal with. Restraint can get you far. Because people will actually hear what you are playing and have a better time.
Use in ear monitors, learn to monitor without them if you don’t have them. Its all about conquering your ego and your drums and need for the huge stack, you didn’t need that stack before and you certainly don’t need it now. Overcome yourself and realize that there is more power to be had IF you turn DOWN. Also, cmon, going through PA these days, so invest in IEM’s, thats the future
I'll be honest, I didn't know about limiters in a live music venue setting - then again I normally play as a solo acoustic act, so I don't think I'd set one off 😅 so I'm guessing that's how the power gets cut off, because I've seen in happen a few times when I've seen bands gigging.
I found out that the best way to not trigger limiters is to puta high pass filters after every pedalboard before kicking the amps: A Bass graphic EQ pedal, with the 50/60 hz fader turned down, cleans the boominess of guitar amps and cabinets and tightens the bass (and makes space for the kick drum). That lowers the sub frequencies usually booming and feedbacking on stage, so everything sounds cleaner, and creates less contamination towards the crowd and less phase issues with the PA system. I've been to venues where they stopped making concerts because the dbs meters and limiters made it impossible to play gigs. I told him to buy 3 or 4 cheap eq pedals and ask the bands to put it between the pedals and the amp. Told him to also High Pass floor monitors, and event the PA System at around 30-40 hz. First soundcheck, he couldn't believe the results. The limiter didn't kick in at all, and the DB meter marked around 15 dbs lower. Sub bass frequencies have a lot of energy and take a lot of space. The club went back to programming gigs 4-5 nights a week, and from then on neighbours never complained again. This is even easier to do with digital amp modellers, just putting a high pass filter in the global output EQ setting. I also recommended him to invest in a special "PRE EQd" set of cymbals for his backline drumset. This are pure magic, and I use them in my band gigs as well. They're about 30% less loud, and the special alloy they're made of takes out most of the undesired mids in cymbals. THEY'RE NOT LOW VOLUME/PRACTICE CYMBALS. Here they are: sabian.com/cymbal-series/frx/ They're not cheap, though. They sound so great and clean, that most drummers ended up using them in gigs, as they were pleasantly surprised after testing them. The improvement in cymbal bleed on vocal mikes is second to none. Trust me, these tips are game-changing. Amazing setup as well for rehearsals!!
flobeeone kinobee some of them are crazy aren’t they? Weirdly enough many people commenting don’t believe these limiters even exist and others think they can boycott them... they aren’t fun but as a working musician they are a necessary evil.
Did a function gig a while back, where the limiter was set off before we even started playing , by the people clapping after the introduction speeches.The powers that be , realising there might be no music that night , got it turned off. I was told sometime later that the limiter had not been set correctly.
Funny story: (We weren't acc that loud) but during sound check our soundguy just didn't care about our bassist, so after checking several with him he turned himself up a load and proceeded up blow out the PA speaker lmao
Our band has a lot of compliments on our sound. One reason is having very good gear but not being too loud is a key. If your too loud for the room you will distort. One sound check trick is to get a dB meter and check the drummers snare volume. Get all the amps and PA to the same volume. You will still change it a bit on sound check but it a very good starting point. It’s often 95-105 dB depending on the drummer.
Ahh...I wish my band would do this. I've set all the gear up in the rehearsal space for 110db or so and the first thing they do is crank the amps right on up.
We have a bar here that they come in after the bar opens and sets up, and does a sound check and bands are regularly too loud. Mind you this place has a dance floor. What would you say to the bands that play their and the bar owner if people have stopped coming 🤔?
the best thing we did with our band was to go all DI and in ear monitoring. For guitar players and bass players now there are in the market amazing affordable pedalboards/effects with cab simulators/impulse responses loaders where you can get an amazing and realistic sound. Connect everything to the desk and send individual monitor mixes to each musician. There are also affordable monitoring systems for less than £150. That give us a total control of the stage volume, and if the limiter starts peaking, we just turn the master down of the PA, while our individual mixes stays the same. Unfortunately as i mentioned before; load of those limiters are so sensible that get in red with the kick of the drum without any amplification. Anyway, we are really happy to make this change and also we dont have to carry any heavy amps!!!
I don't get the limiter idea here. I mix small clubs a lot and the way to do it is by natural 4x12 and 1X18 guitar and bass sound and vocal out the pa against that and the closmiked drumshells. No Limiters, no compressors, except for some light main mix peak reduction at most. Just level out the instruments on stage and wear good filtered ear protection and get an idea of what monitor power ratings are.
Hey Damian, not entirely related to this video, but have you considered doing a video with some advice on when you first start a social media page for your band? Almost at that process with mine, and really don't know how to go about making that first step to getting a decent initial following on say, Facebook, considering I never really friend-hoarded on my personal account.
@@DamianKeyes That'd be great! Unfortunate as it may be, when people see your Facebook with only say... 100 likes, a lot of people will assume there are so few because your music is bad.
Hey! first of all, your content is very amazing and helpful at the same time keep up the good work man thank you so much for that! I need some help from ya I'm an aspiring artist from India the kind of stuff that I'm into is something that is under the rocks in my country I'm into rock, emo, pop punk kind of music it still has a long way to go at my place So I just wanted to know that is there any way to target an audience outside of my country? I'm in a variety of groups and have people from outside are there in my friends' list but that is surely not enough. how should I proceed? Help please🙏🏻
I even had to switch to mesh-spoons (some nerds call them "forks" for whatever reason). When that isn't enough, you can easily muffle them - pasta has proven good, and it's also fun for the audience when you perform a noodle-solo!
Ben Morris absolutely.. they make giggling unfun and so much harder.. sadly in the uk they are a necessary evil as many venues will close without them and musicians would rather have a quiet paid gig than a night off
@@ellastephen444 so I just checked out your channel. Your music is fantastic. Great sound, good songs, nice vocals and well produced. I'm surprised you don't have more subs!
I have to admit we have played a handful of larger shows and completely unfamiliar to this "limiter gig" thing we are speaking of... they we are a tad metal.
Once I played an acoustic gig (a singer and me on acoustic guitar) and the limiter really pissed me off. I could hear the people talk quietly from the other side of the room. I was not allowed to bring my own pa. I'll never play a gig like this again. If there is a limiter set to low, I immediately leave and have me payed. It is in my contract, so I'll get my money anyways.
Limiters are so unfun however I think you would struggle to get paid as you wouldn’t have fulfilled your contract.. also it’s important to think about your brand and complaints travel fast. My advice would be fake smile and get through the gig pick up the money and then boycott the venue so it doesn’t come up again 😊
I think it’s a legal requirement in some places in the UK. But half the venues that have limiters don’t even use them. But then some UK venues do. It’s mainly for venues in residential areas
In Australia, it's in some venues. Usually it's a place in an in inner city area with high density housing nearby. When they got complaints from residential neighbours, often the local council will insist on the limiter being put in. Luckily, there have been laws passed in my state where if a new housing development goes up next to an old venue that has been doing live music for years, the property developer has to pay to sound-proof THEIR building.
I was gonna say the same thing! I live in America & I've never heard of "limiters" before. Usually, if a band is too loud (Spoiler alert: They ALWAYS are), the bar manager will just walk over (in the middle of a song, when you're trying to concentrate) & yell at you to turn it down.
My bass player always plays too loud and its like he's almost competing against everyone. Even when we ask him to turn his volume down he just turns it down the slightest bit and doesn't try to blend with the band. He's also not safe on what he has to play and I mean I get that he wants to play it fancy to make it sound good but it can often distract the band and when he doesn't get it right, the whole band falls apart. Please someone tell me how to deal with this guy?!!!
Bands need to learn that playing loud doesn’t make you sound loud. Dynamics make you sound loud.
David Shiels absolutely dude
Sunn o))) would beg to differ
Loud doesn't make you soung great either - these days (pub cover band going more than 30 years) we choose to practice and gig quietly. Loud gives you an adreniline buzz but quiet gives you the precision - In our early years we were heard oner 2.5 miles away but these days we practice and gig far more quietly and we play better as a result. Dynamics plus capturing the spirit of a song is key.
John Rogers depends on the music my dude. If you’re playing technical stuff then I can see where you are coming from but if you’re in a doom band, shoegaze band, or some sort of punk sub-genre then being loud is kinda the point. Lots of people don’t play covers and being super proficient isnt really necessary in certain contexts.
@@channtastic Agreed - in our early days the buzz was everything. It used to take from Thursday night practice to Saturday morning for my ears to stop ringing - every week - and gigs were louder Take care though - sadly our lead guitarist has significant high frequency hearing loss these days.
I was literally playing guitar loudly and then I got this notification
Ha ha that is amazing! 😊😊😊
Same
We did a gig at a working men’s club in Reading where there was a limiter. Luckily our bass player had been there before and he knew how to deal with it. There was a kitchen off to the side of the main hall and he got us to run all our power on long extension leads from the sockets in there which were on a separate mains circuit. The limiter regularly tipped red but the band played all night with no interruption:).
As a sound guy, have your stage volume as low as possible and let your monitors do the work.
Drums: try “darker” cymbals and know how to bring energy without hitting hard.
Bass: You don’t need the watts! Get yourself a good 500w amp with a 2x10 and a DI out. Use your monitor.
Guitar: get an attenuator! You get to crank your guitar and get the tubes hot without the volume and... USE YOUR MONITOR!
On a somewhat related note: I was session drumming for a band, during rehearsals the guitarist was too loud so I mentioned it politely. He said his guitar is actually very quiet but it just SEEMS loud due to my position in the (20m2) room. Admittedly a creative and metaphysical argument that might have convinced Deepak Chopra, but if it sounds too loud where I am sitting in a small room, it means it's too loud. Needless to say he didn't change his setting. So I mention it again after the next song, being clear that I cannot hear the vocalist or brass section. This went on a few times, and he ultimately refused to turn down at all.
I can only advise boycotting guitarists like this. Once I got up to leave he turned down. No arguing, all polite and friendly, just don't take that nonsense. After rehearsal the other regular band members thanked me, stating "its always the same". I had earned their respect, the guitarist was friendly afterwards and I got the gig as a regular session player.
Moral of the story: don't accept warped ego as a reason for anything in a band, stamp that stuff out at the beginning politely and forcefully as best you can.
I've never understood that really. Some people want to preserve their "sound" so much that they're willing to cripple the entire gig/band. I've noticed that it's usually either really young people who haven't yet learned that not everything needs to be dead-perfect to have a great show, or old guys who like to say, "well I'm old school, so that's how I do it."
I played with a guy who always brought his Marshall 100w stack. He had to have his sound. We never had a PA that could compete with him. He was a douchebag as a person too. Control freak who although a good player was not worth the stress.
Yes as a general rule if I don't hear the lead vocalist, I usually try to come down. It is pointless trying to play over a lead singer or lead instrumentalist.
One thing I’ve learned from all my gigs is that you should be as quiet as possible while still being clear. I feel like many bands try to be as loud as possible without being abrasive. People hate too loud. So if you misjudge being as quiet as possible, people will ask you to turn up a hair. This is a better feeling than asking to be turned down.
When people’s ears can’t process the sound it’s too loud... When you get that crackling sound in your ears... and when blood starts oozing out of people’s ears...
I actually once heard that ear cracking sound at a Metallica show in 86 at a small venue.
leftygeezer 👍
Fleisch Berg - 👍
when you can't hear for three days then realise you have permanent screeching tinnitus.
Wow I felt my iq sink reading this comment and the answers below.
As a musician healthy hearing is crucial to be able to perform well. U guys probably suck at what you do
"Guitars don't set off limiters"...challenge accepted!
😊😊😊 yes!!!
I once had a friend hire me to run sound for his band's gig. It was a movie theater that had a sports bar and the band was playing the bar. Their amps and drums were LOUD and I had only the vocals in the PA. I think we got through two songs before the manager came over and shut everything down. I guess the owner of the movie theater chain just walked in and thought the band was too loud, so he just told the manager to get rid of the band. He went ahead and paid the band (and consequently me) - easiest gig I ever teched!
I had the exact same situation, except the gig got postponed "until the people leave the theater" - so like 2-3 hours. Needless to say, most people left and we had to issue massive ticket refunds.
it's the ego that's too loud, er i mean the guitarist.
Hahaha
It’s drums, always
No, it's always the drums and bass..
some of those limiters are absolute ridiculous. They even get to red with the kick without microphone
danimourinho yeah totally ridiculous.. saying that most of the comments are accusing me of making up these limiters lol
After two years playing limiter venues, I've vetoed them for next summer and only taken nightclub residencies. I don't get paid enough to fight with flattened frequencies on my mic - OH HELL NO. Singing should be easy and battling to be heard at 65dB (when the room is louder than that at restaurants and bars!) is not my idea of fun.
Oh, you're here too!
@@guitaristssuck8979 Haha where? CZcams or Limiter Hell? The answer is Yes to both!
Lol
@@queentantrumofficial Facebook mainly
My band and I pride ourselves on sounding as good as possible while being as least loud as possible. We play lots of bar gigs, and having been to witness other bands' bar gigs, there's nothing worse than turning up to hang out with some friends while listening to some music and checking out a band but you all have to just stand there shoulder to shoulder and you can't even talk to each other without talking directly into their ear because it's too loud. You're not going to impress people that way, you're going to chase them out, which is a disastrous result and the antithesis of what you want your band to do to people.
For Guitar players, lower wattage amps for more quiet gigs is critical. Most guitar players don't turn down because the sweet spots on their amps, where natural breakup starts to occur and the tone is the most responsive, is achieved by pushing the tubes harder, which means more volume. If playing an 85 watt Fender Twin on a low volume gig, the guitar player will NOT be happy with the tone by turning down the Master volume and cranking up the OD pedal. It's not what the amp was designed to do to "sound" like a Fender Twin, which is why that player bought it. I switched from higher wattage amps to a 15 watt, which solved the problem instantly. I was able to drive the tubes hard enough to hit that sweet spot, at a fraction of the volume. The amp can also now be mic'd giving the Front of House engineer a fighting chance at a good blend out front. Some guitar players complain they can't hear the lower wattage amps well enough to monitor them live. The rest of the band turning down, as you've outlined REALLY well here (Thank you) helps that problem. The other thing that helps is a guitar amp stand. You can angle it up so it's pointing more toward your ears (and less directly at the crowd's skulls) and position it closer to you (Sound Guys LOVE this). Since going lower wattage, I've actually started using two amps, run in stereo, on either side of me and just behind me. It's the best tone I've EVER had live as I'm completely immersed in the center of the spread and the volume is STILL far more manageable than a single higher watt amp. Oh yeah, It's also WAY easier on the back to carry a 20lbs 15watt amp than a 75lb 85 watt amp. My pedalboard is actually heavier than my amp now. Your back will thank you.
With all that being said, you can't tell me that you've never heard of (or considered) using an attenuator on whatever amp's too loud?
Cr8Tron I have. A Power Soak is not a bad option and certainly cheaper than a new Amp. Once I started playing more gigs where a high wattage amplifier has to be reduced in volume, it just made more sense to go low watts and not add another item to the chain and save my back in the process. But, yeah, that’s certainly an option as well.
@@munkduane I can totally understand wanting to avoid the heavy lifting. For a long time, I used to always just plug my VG88 directly into the systems (and use the amp/cab simulators in my presets). Not exactly ideal, having to hope that the monitors will be properly tuned every gig...but I'm sure my crooked back appreciated it, nonetheless. A less obvious problem (when running simulators) is the fact that there should still be some sort of power amp, to add a final coloration to all the presets (so that they sound more consistent). Still have yet to pay my friend, who's planning on eventually building me a custom one...but in the meantime, I'm using his mom's Yamaha G100-112iii that she's been letting me hang onto, which sounds great.
I downsized a few times, now playing a Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue, (NOT cranked) still too loud for some people, they're probably not into music, but just fear awkward silences... it's also funny to be told you're too loud before plugging in your amp.
@@sebastianwei7721 When running sound, I always find it entertainingly funny when a venue manager stops by to confront me about where *I* have the levels at, before I've even turned up the master fader at all. 🤣 Even if I already have the master turned up, I'll often immediately respond by briefly hitting the mute button, and exclaiming "SEE THAT!? It ain't me who's too loud." The look on their faces is always priceless. 😂👌
I don't think I've ever really seen any videos specifically like this before. Practical tips and advice for bands, with an actual band playing and demonstrating, with good sound. Good work Damian!
A good video might be around things like the etiquette of gigs, calling ahead with tech rider, how to soundcheck (what to soundcheck, tone wise), how to talk to the sound engineer, what to ask for in monitors, how to assert yourself. I've found these kind of things if you don't handle them correctly can totally ruin a gig and also your chances of getting booked again.
I can tell you are testing the waters on new types of videos,and I love it. That is amazing! Thank you for the content!
Are these limiters in venues a UK thing? I’ve never actually encountered one in the US.
The best thing my band did for getting a lower stage volume was getting everyone on IEMs. Now we can run our amps really quiet but everyone can still crank their own volume up in their ears. It really cut back on the loudness war we had going on for a while there.
I had the same question, I've never even heard of these sort of gigs!
I was really waiting to hear IEMs... but never mentioned... ;-) Drum can be loud but the lower volume of the amps can compensate maybe?
Never seen this in the states either. Usually venues my band plays at wants us loud lol. I think if this is a thing in the states, your band booked the wrong venue or your not the right band for that gig.
We have them in Spain too...only in tourist areas...one resort I play at, the limiters are set to 80dB, at the other 65dB (aka a hairdryer). As we play outside during summers, that 65dB includes all the ambient noise from traffic, people, other bars etc and usually peaks before we sing a note. It's awful and impossible to enjoy performing. Bands? Forget it. That's why I'm going back to playing live with my rock music in other countries. Limiters have been a thing in UK since the 90s but are not set as ridiculously low as these, I don't think.
These are in some venues in Australia, too.
These are good tips, but often when venues have these, the place is gone in no time: a combination of the limiter threshold set way too low for bands to even play at a decent volume means that bands won't return, and often the limiter is an indicator that the venue was not originally established with live music in mind.
I've never done repeat gigs at venues with limiters.
The best thing my band did to control volume is go fully digital. Two guitar players going direct with Headrush units, Bass player DI'd to our digital desk with bass amp emulation and electric drums. We use in ears, so no loud monitors on the stage. As a result, our stage is completely silent except for vocal and I can control the volume of the entire band with one Fader! We don't have these stupid sound limited things in Australia but where I live, there are a lot of smaller venues and volume is always a concern. In my opinion, it's a far better solution to this issue than compromising all your sounds and tone with gaffer tape and tea towels :/
Used to play a pub with a limiter in Gloucester, landlord just used to have a couple of really long extension leads from behind that bar, bypassing the limiter, everything up to 11 ;) #ProTip
You ever listen to My Bloody Valentine ( the 90s shoegaze band not the emo band) live in concert? I took my earplugs off during my favorite song and I have never heard anything so loud, but so beautiful. It sounds like pure raw electricity but in an organized way. Man it's on a one of a kind experience.
My Bloody Valentine / Bullet For My Valentine
Similar name but totally different. BFMV play metalcore, but man, shoegazers MBV are capable of serious loudness!
Such sweet, beautiful noise. One of the greatest bands ever...
This video should be required viewing for every band.
This video is pure bullshit and sound limiters should be boycotted from everywhere that music is played.
Thank you Damian! Very Very usefull!
Great tips. Especially for the drummer.
Mr Keyes, your the BOMB. Thank you for helping us with your live band tips.
Thanks so much
This type of content is great and really useful. More of this! Logistical and practical stuff that most people aren't covering - great idea.
Joe Douglas I have some ideas over the next few weeks 😊😊
Really loved this video. Extremely useful information and to the point. Every band and their mother needs to watch this. Thank you for what you do Damian! Much respect.
Samuel David thanks so much Samuel
Nice! These tips may not only be helpful on stage, but in so many situations. Thanks!
Jürgen Schuler thanks Jürgen
My college rehersal room had a limiter, we discoverd early on that the limiter mic was on top of an electrical distrubution box, two bike leathers and a hoodie took care of that, in 2 years nobody else on the course worked out how we managed to play so loud without tripping it, what else are you ment to do when they leave a 79 Marshall JMP in there? In all seriousness I understand why they are used, there is a very fine line, which is very dificult to walk, between good energentic volume levels and hearing damage. There are so many variables involed, but in the context of a rock band I still stand by the fact there is no finer feeling than a big valve amp flapping the back of your trousers. Even as a punter the thrill of a stack washing over you, palm mutes hitting you in the chest... its just epic, the 'magic feedback loop' I call it (guitarist hits chord, signal hits big amp, cab blasts it to audience, audience goes mad, guitarist gets the buzz, hits the next chord harder) Its a visceral expirence, Kemper's just aint the same... Ok thats my rocker rant for the evening... Really enjoying these videos, I'm learning a lot and really appreciate the time you take to make them, thanks Damian.
Mackie used to have these nice PA heads that were perfect for band practice. In the manual under problem solving it said something in the order of: Band Not Loud Enough? Practice.
Really helpful video.
great info...never played anywhere with a limiter but good advice in any case.
Very informative. Great work.
Edit Point Video thanks so much
Great video. Was booked to play a 60th birthday in a social club where the limiter was actually on the stage, rather than at the back of room. Would've been pretty tough to do but we managed to bypass the limiter by finding some sockets on a different circuit. Having some extra extension leads/reels is always handy!
Thanks Damian! this is the content i've been looking for years of. Being in a band and having to deal with frequencies, loudness, when and how to play. I find it really hard to understand it most of time because there isn't a lot of videos on youtube about it. I would definitely like to learn with more content like this! Thank you from Canada
William Richard thanks so much dude
I feel like this is mainly an attack on dummers
Absolutely.. they get all the girls have all the fun and get to hit things for a living... damn them!!
I’m kidding of course, whenever we get to a limiter sadly everyone looks at the drummer and it’s the first and biggest obstacle to tackle.. bass will always set it off the most but bass needs to sit in the mix.
Meanwhile guitarists get away Scott-free lol
My drummer does the thing with the towel over snare when we rehearse in our bassists room. He often uses his zip hoodie and it works well
Re muffling cymbals:
You can absolutely muffle cymbals similarly to drums (with tape, moongels etc). However, with cymbals, you should put the muffling towards the center and not towards the edges. The closer to the edge you stick your tape/moongel, the more of the sound it will kill, potentially making the cymbal sound like a trash can with zero sustain. Start from the center and then move towards the edges if you need to!
Also, the towel does not have to cover the whole drum, if you just put it across 1/3 of the drum and fix it in place with some tape or a clip, it will still do the job without killing the tone.
Great advice thanks Dude love this 😊😊😊
you can combine the gaffa tape and the tea towel trick also, by gaffing a a tea towel over the limiter.
My band is new to playing shows. I didn't even know these were a thing. But we also haven't cut out. So I hope so far so good.
Depends on the venue. If there is a sound guy and he has everything miced - it's really up to him to control the volume. In a smaller club, if the drums aren't miced you can only go as loud as the drums.
DAN KABANUCK a lot of working musicians in the uk take active pa’s and keep costs down by doing sound themselves.. it’s doable just a pain in the arse.. some are as low as 90db and are a nightmare but unavoidable
Drums sound awesome with damping, you guys are getting a great sound there, big up Damo!
Citizen Warwick thanks so much 😊😊😊
Honestly, I find the damped drum sound 10x better than the opened one.
a decibel meter would have been useful
Yeah we tried really hard to get a venue but none of them wanted to be involved for the bad light and when we tried stuff on our phones it wasn’t registering properly and wasn’t the right surroundings
I don't why but when I read the title of the video in my head, I imagine a Schwarzenneger austrian accent.
As a bass player I use a ‘gamma v2’ if I feel the the venue requires it - they are often impressed that I’ve thought of it & it defo helps. Otherwise use a crate !!
My mates and I where very lucky early on.
We ask a professional to come over and have a listen to us at a rehearsal.
Unlike the normal fan base half drunk fans who praised us ..he calmly told us your too loud .
He said we had lost our dynamics
For the next year we would yell at one another throughout the gigs as a reminder to keep the volume down so we could push the volume at appropriate times this Keeping the dynamic of the tune.( It's what moves people) .we developed a good habit and the venue management loved it also ..
Again Damien you've touched on an important subject !
Thanks ...you rock. Your info is brilliant.keep making live music better .its creating more work for everyone.
From playing all my life, starting in bars at age 16, and watching what seems like hundreds of bar bands across America over the years, if I could give young or all bands one single piece of advise it would be to control their stage volume and play quieter, hands down. Everything is better when you do. The music sounds better, the band can hear better and play tighter, the crowd can feel it on the dance floor but still be able to go back and order a drink without yelling to do it and mingle with their peeps when they want to. Perhaps most importantly all of these things make club/bar owners happy and your band more valuable to them, which is a very good thing.
I'm close to 70, and have tinitus... the loud bands I used to groove on, are now painful. I've no tolerance without hearing protection.
I recently changed genres, one that doesn't work played loud. It's amazing to be able to sing with an electric band with out a mic on some tunes.
In my experience, the rhythm section controls the volume. The last band I was in, the leader would scold me for being loud. I'd tell him to tell the drummer, who'd lose himself in the moment and get excited, play louder.
It was the same in the previous band... the drummer again, would lose himself, take the bass player with him. When the bass gets loud, everything turns to shit. Everyone would then turn up and nobody could hear themselves, and in turn, they'd turn up more...
When I played bass, I'd intentionally make my sound dull and fat, with just enough punch to cut through. I was often told to turn up by hammerheads in the audience... but the genre I was playing needed the front man to stand out. My job was to make him look and sound good, his fine guitar playing and lyrics clearly heard.
Loud is for kids and hacks.
If only everyon my age knew this as my bassist has sadly given me tinnitus at the age of 16
I hate to say this but hearing loss and damage comes from high frequencies primarily. So, most likely it was the guitar or drums
It is possible to use sticks & play under every thing. But takes great technique.
You didn't see dinosaur Jr. my bloody valentine, Jon Spencer blues explosion... Super loud super good
I pride myself on my band being the best "Sounding" but also the "Quietest" band around. I mean. It's live rock n roll with acoustic drums, so it's still going to be loud and powerful. But we're all on in-ears, and my drummers (I play with 3 different ones, depending on who is available for what) have learned that the norm for us, is playing with the "Skirt" as we call it (a modified towel that hangs down in a circle from the bottom hoop of the drum, killing all reflection off the floor, and calming down the bottom head) on the Snare drum, which is the worst offender usually, and also not playing rimshots and maybe some additional dampening on the top snare head. If we're playing a big outdoor gig, then we "unsheathe" the drums, but inside in the small rock clubs that we play at all the time.
Frankly I really don't care if our snare sounds like The Black Album if it's stepping on everything else. I'd rather it sound like hitting a pillow with a ruler and have everything else sound great and be at a reasonable volume. Usually, it's the younger/greener drummers that have the toughest time accepting this. The more seasoned ones are either fully on board, or it was their idea to begin with! Lol. Plus, then we can crank up the PA a bit more too and get in that nice lush post-processed sound with a fuller low-end in the room rather than a thin sound that's all coming off stage rather than through the PA. I spend a lot of time getting nice delays on the vocals and reverbs on the toms and other instruments, it's a shame to have it all be a waste because of a gunshot snare. The one kid that I play with actually took a thin T shirt and stretched it across the top of his snare drum and put the head and hoop on over top of it. It's PERFECT for what we do in those small clubs. It sounds a little dead, sure, but he can whack away on it without compromising his style and his snare doesn't sound like a gunshot in a bathroom in those small reflective rooms we play in a lot.
Couldn’t the drummer just mime that he is playing and just focus on looking good like most bass players do?
I always said Bands are too loud
LOUD DOES NOT MEAN YOUR GOOD
Only thing in practice is that the drums are loud, therefore turning up the guitar and bass. But then can’t hear vocals
This shouldn't be necessary. A venue/promoter shouldn't be booking bands if they have to compromise their performance. A simple ' hey guys can you turn it down a bit' works a lot better than pissing both the audience and the band off.
If you work your amp ( my preferance over modeling) it requires some volume. But live( all my years experience very little studio work besides construction) you want clarity. And headroom.
Never knew limiters were a thing in venues, are they only in places where function bands play? All the venues I've played at are proper music venues that have an average volume of around 110dB (I measured them coz I'm a nerd).
There must be technological solutions to all of this. We’ve been thinking about replacing drums entirely with sample pads, using an amp emulator for the e. guitar, in-ear monitors so there’s no noise on stage, etc.
GraemeMarkNI I’m sure with a bit of money and creativity there would be some great options 😊😊
What about replacing the band with a mp3-player? For some people even this would be to loud.
If the natural volume of the drums is too loud (no pa) I'd switch to electronic drums. Those come with volume knobs.
Getting a good tone at lower volume is easy. You can work that out at home then adjust a little for the room.
something else, is that people always complain that the guitar players keep turning themselves up, but why do we do that? Because we can't hear ourselves. I think in ear monitors if you can afford it are a god send. Just something to think about :) Thanks for the vid, some good thoughts and tips there.
Johnny Boo defo yes to in ears if they can be afforded.. very helpful 😊😊😊
Soundcheck to an empty room and then bring in 100-200 people? Man, that would be great.
limiter...the bane of my life (and we aren’t even a particularly loud band!). Having a background in acoustics, it is scary to see how many of these places also have them set wrong!
Neil Spencer Bruce it’s weird I’m getting so much stick saying these are bullshit and bands should boycott them which isn’t possible
Just use an electronic drum set! Kidding, kidding. As for dampening the cymbals, we use various amount of blu tack. Seems to work nicely.
Autorotation we use an electric drum kit. Sounds better that throwing gaffer tape and tea towels all over the acoustic drums!
@@officialWWM fair enough, it gives you more control and if it fits your style, even better. We use a hybrid acoustic / electronic kit.
Autorotation it's not our first choice but small venues and sound limits make it much easier in those situations.
The only "limiter" at any gig I've ever played is in the rack with the compressors. My suggestion...Start playing larger shows! If there ever was an issue with volume, they dealt with the soundman, NOT the band! Seriously, if your playing in places that screwed up, they should only book DJ's. Sorry, not sorry.
If you play in cities like London or around the UK that’s not possible. Plus musicians who make a living should be mailable.. I’ve played stadiums during sports events where we have needed to be wary of certain levels
@@DamianKeyes Wow! That's really messed up! When you make the move over here, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Nowhere in the U.S. does anyone expect an acoustic drum kit to suddenly develop a volume control. Over there, I think the only reasonable answer is to go with Roland V-Drums, & processors with good cab IR's like the helix, Headrush, or another like type effects units. At least you can do that now days, eh? Ridiculous that it's that unrealistic in the U.K.
I've heard a lot of loud bands that just about had that attitude. None of them were as good as they thought they were.
Being able to adapt to the room to give the audience a great experience is an essential skill. Especially for drummers.
Had a lot of gigs where they just kept on slamming the cymbals until everyone's ears bleed. Completely disregarding that the sound of the whole band could be so much better if they just took one foot off the gas.
Limiters might or might not be a good idea. But untreated, reverberant, shitty PA owning venues are real and a big part of what every up and coming musician has to deal with.
Restraint can get you far. Because people will actually hear what you are playing and have a better time.
Use in ear monitors, learn to monitor without them if you don’t have them. Its all about conquering your ego and your drums and need for the huge stack, you didn’t need that stack before and you certainly don’t need it now. Overcome yourself and realize that there is more power to be had IF you turn DOWN. Also, cmon, going through PA these days, so invest in IEM’s, thats the future
I'll be honest, I didn't know about limiters in a live music venue setting - then again I normally play as a solo acoustic act, so I don't think I'd set one off 😅 so I'm guessing that's how the power gets cut off, because I've seen in happen a few times when I've seen bands gigging.
How about getting the snippers out and get rid of the limiter. If it is too loud then you are too old. Motorhead never had a limiter.
I found out that the best way to not trigger limiters is to puta high pass filters after every pedalboard before kicking the amps: A Bass graphic EQ pedal, with the 50/60 hz fader turned down, cleans the boominess of guitar amps and cabinets and tightens the bass (and makes space for the kick drum). That lowers the sub frequencies usually booming and feedbacking on stage, so everything sounds cleaner, and creates less contamination towards the crowd and less phase issues with the PA system. I've been to venues where they stopped making concerts because the dbs meters and limiters made it impossible to play gigs. I told him to buy 3 or 4 cheap eq pedals and ask the bands to put it between the pedals and the amp. Told him to also High Pass floor monitors, and event the PA System at around 30-40 hz. First soundcheck, he couldn't believe the results. The limiter didn't kick in at all, and the DB meter marked around 15 dbs lower. Sub bass frequencies have a lot of energy and take a lot of space. The club went back to programming gigs 4-5 nights a week, and from then on neighbours never complained again.
This is even easier to do with digital amp modellers, just putting a high pass filter in the global output EQ setting.
I also recommended him to invest in a special "PRE EQd" set of cymbals for his backline drumset. This are pure magic, and I use them in my band gigs as well. They're about 30% less loud, and the special alloy they're made of takes out most of the undesired mids in cymbals. THEY'RE NOT LOW VOLUME/PRACTICE CYMBALS. Here they are: sabian.com/cymbal-series/frx/ They're not cheap, though. They sound so great and clean, that most drummers ended up using them in gigs, as they were pleasantly surprised after testing them. The improvement in cymbal bleed on vocal mikes is second to none.
Trust me, these tips are game-changing. Amazing setup as well for rehearsals!!
I played at venue where the limiter went off when we sang with no instruments playing
flobeeone kinobee some of them are crazy aren’t they? Weirdly enough many people commenting don’t believe these limiters even exist and others think they can boycott them... they aren’t fun but as a working musician they are a necessary evil.
Did a function gig a while back, where the limiter was set off before we even started playing , by the people clapping after the introduction speeches.The powers that be , realising there might be no music that night , got it turned off. I was told sometime later that the limiter had not been set correctly.
I have not come across limiters here in California. That said, this is great if just for the sound level issue in a band.
Omar Barba thanks dude yeah I think a lot of people are annoyed with limiters however I think it’s about respect for the audience 😊😊
Funny story:
(We weren't acc that loud) but during sound check our soundguy just didn't care about our bassist, so after checking several with him he turned himself up a load and proceeded up blow out the PA speaker lmao
Our band has a lot of compliments on our sound. One reason is having very good gear but not being too loud is a key. If your too loud for the room you will distort.
One sound check trick is to get a dB meter and check the drummers snare volume. Get all the amps and PA to the same volume. You will still change it a bit on sound check but it a very good starting point. It’s often 95-105 dB depending on the drummer.
Ahh...I wish my band would do this. I've set all the gear up in the rehearsal space for 110db or so and the first thing they do is crank the amps right on up.
We have a bar here that they come in after the bar opens and sets up, and does a sound check and bands are regularly too loud. Mind you this place has a dance floor. What would you say to the bands that play their and the bar owner if people have stopped coming 🤔?
the best thing we did with our band was to go all DI and in ear monitoring. For guitar players and bass players now there are in the market amazing affordable pedalboards/effects with cab simulators/impulse responses loaders where you can get an amazing and realistic sound. Connect everything to the desk and send individual monitor mixes to each musician. There are also affordable monitoring systems for less than £150. That give us a total control of the stage volume, and if the limiter starts peaking, we just turn the master down of the PA, while our individual mixes stays the same. Unfortunately as i mentioned before; load of those limiters are so sensible that get in red with the kick of the drum without any amplification. Anyway, we are really happy to make this change and also we dont have to carry any heavy amps!!!
Great stuff 👍
I don't get the limiter idea here. I mix small clubs a lot and the way to do it is by natural 4x12 and 1X18 guitar and bass sound and vocal out the pa against that and the closmiked drumshells. No Limiters, no compressors, except for some light main mix peak reduction at most. Just level out the instruments on stage and wear good filtered ear protection and get an idea of what monitor power ratings are.
Hey Damian, not entirely related to this video, but have you considered doing a video with some advice on when you first start a social media page for your band? Almost at that process with mine, and really don't know how to go about making that first step to getting a decent initial following on say, Facebook, considering I never really friend-hoarded on my personal account.
Burl Hurlbutt I defo think I could do something creative on this .. I’ll have a think
@@DamianKeyes That'd be great! Unfortunate as it may be, when people see your Facebook with only say... 100 likes, a lot of people will assume there are so few because your music is bad.
Hey!
first of all, your content is very amazing and helpful at the same time
keep up the good work man
thank you so much for that!
I need some help from ya
I'm an aspiring artist from India
the kind of stuff that I'm into is something that is under the rocks in my country
I'm into rock, emo, pop punk kind of music
it still has a long way to go at my place
So I just wanted to know that is there any way to target an audience outside of my country?
I'm in a variety of groups and have people from outside are there in my friends' list but that is surely not enough.
how should I proceed?
Help please🙏🏻
shreyanstar158 thank you so much
So as a drummer I need to play the spoons- got it!
Now that is cool 😊
I even had to switch to mesh-spoons (some nerds call them "forks" for whatever reason).
When that isn't enough, you can easily muffle them - pasta has proven good, and it's also fun for the audience when you perform a noodle-solo!
@@DOOMCATproductions and if that fails to prove quiet enough, just put up a slide show of drawings of you playing your pasta-laden mesh music-makers.
@@rnjesus9950 the trend is skype/zoom/etc. anyway. great times for choppy sound and bad timing, now every band gets a chance ;)
@@DOOMCATproductions zoom lags, I rush; the result is perfection worthy of the tightest math metal.
"One night in a club called The Shakin' Hand!
There was a 32-decibel rockin' band!"
Lol whaaaaaat! Were they mice?
Problem is there's some songs where there are parts that need to be loud to make sense, so that step up in volume becomes an issue
Ben Morris absolutely.. they make giggling unfun and so much harder.. sadly in the uk they are a necessary evil as many venues will close without them and musicians would rather have a quiet paid gig than a night off
Loooove this one, and someone is looking hottttt 😍😍😍
Ella Stephen thirsty...
Music Islife always!
@@ellastephen444 so I just checked out your channel. Your music is fantastic. Great sound, good songs, nice vocals and well produced. I'm surprised you don't have more subs!
As a vocalist it is very frustrating when the guitarist only wants to hear himself and drowns out the vocals !
I was always told to get some toilet roll and stick it to the snare with duck tape haha
Music Paths great tip
I have to admit we have played a handful of larger shows and completely unfamiliar to this "limiter gig" thing we are speaking of... they we are a tad metal.
Between Now And Forever Official I’m learning they are very much a brutish thing .. they are a pain in the arse
Yea I’m in the USA and I’ve never heard of this.
Playing with a limiter sounds like a horrible experience.
just use a electronic drum kit and roll down the volume on the amps
No
Once I played an acoustic gig (a singer and me on acoustic guitar) and the limiter really pissed me off. I could hear the people talk quietly from the other side of the room. I was not allowed to bring my own pa. I'll never play a gig like this again. If there is a limiter set to low, I immediately leave and have me payed. It is in my contract, so I'll get my money anyways.
Limiters are so unfun however I think you would struggle to get paid as you wouldn’t have fulfilled your contract.. also it’s important to think about your brand and complaints travel fast.
My advice would be fake smile and get through the gig pick up the money and then boycott the venue so it doesn’t come up again 😊
Start with introducing the drummer to his new friend the 7A
I make the joke of “volume = talent” 😂 so many bands nowadays are just full power all the time and it doesn’t work!
Also, DEFCON gets worse as it gets lower.
Limiter gigs?! What?!
I have never heard of one of these "limiters", where are they used? Why? Is it some regulatory thing or does the venue do it on their own?
Javyon VISION Both.
I think it’s a legal requirement in some places in the UK. But half the venues that have limiters don’t even use them. But then some UK venues do. It’s mainly for venues in residential areas
Must be a UK thing. I have never heard of venues using limiters.
@@derekpink that's kind of what I was thinking.
In Australia, it's in some venues. Usually it's a place in an in inner city area with high density housing nearby. When they got complaints from residential neighbours, often the local council will insist on the limiter being put in.
Luckily, there have been laws passed in my state where if a new housing development goes up next to an old venue that has been doing live music for years, the property developer has to pay to sound-proof THEIR building.
Dude I actually prefer a damped snare haha :) sounds like a drum machine
I've never heard of this type of thing, do they just not have these in America? Or just not where I've lived so far?
I was gonna say the same thing! I live in America & I've never heard of "limiters" before. Usually, if a band is too loud (Spoiler alert: They ALWAYS are), the bar manager will just walk over (in the middle of a song, when you're trying to concentrate) & yell at you to turn it down.
Imagine Nirvana playing with a limiter 😂
My band is way too loud. Where we play dials us in to be way too loud. Mi hate it.
The bands that are always too are at big concerts. You can never hear the vocals.
My bass player always plays too loud and its like he's almost competing against everyone. Even when we ask him to turn his volume down he just turns it down the slightest bit and doesn't try to blend with the band. He's also not safe on what he has to play and I mean I get that he wants to play it fancy to make it sound good but it can often distract the band and when he doesn't get it right, the whole band falls apart. Please someone tell me how to deal with this guy?!!!
Regardless of stage size. Stage volume is huge. The lower the volume the better.
The Beatles stopped playing live, because they couldn't play loud enough to hear themselves :D
This is the first time ive ever heard of a "limiter gig" like this. Where does this exist, cause they are not in my country...
They are everywhere in the uk.. in sure you will get them at some point they are horrible things