Should rugby take money from Saudi Arabia? The Senior Vice President of Finance at LIV Golf joins us
Vložit
- čas přidán 14. 05. 2024
- On this week’s show we are joined by Mark Foster, a former Gloucester and Exeter Chiefs winger. He is now Senior Vice President of Finance at LIV Golf - the tournament backed by one of the biggest sovereign wealth funds in the world.
Golf is one of many sports that has seen significant investment from Saudi Arabia. Rugby is yet to have a big bite of the cherry but it feels like it may be a case of ‘when, not if’ this happens.
So where is rugby in the queue? How desperately does it need a big cheque from somewhere? What could it look like? What are the implications?
Season 4 is sponsored by Continental Tyres.
0:01 - Show Intro
0:57 - Show starts
3:24 - Mark Foster joins us
5:44 - Fozzy the Rugby Player
7:29 - Gloucester & 90-0
12:55 - Mark's day-to-day
16:10 - How did LIV Golf come about?
25:28 - Is Golf better for LIV?
29:35 - Justifying the challenges
32:45 - Can Rugby take money from Saudi Arabia?
38:26 - Where to put the money?
41:05 - Are conversations happening?
47:30 - How easy is it to change Rugby?
50:52 - Commercial Success for LIV?
1:05:45 - Is it needed?
Grab your GBR merchandise here: www.goodbadrugby.com
Facebook: / goodbadandrugby
Twitter: / goodbadrugby
Instagram: / goodbadrugby
Tiktok: / goodbadrugby
GB&R: linktr.ee/goodbadrugby
#rugby #rugbyunion #podcasts - Sport
Wow, this was a really hard listen. I’m a long time fan of the pod and am really disappointed of your championing of the Saudi Regime.
Foster dismissed sports-washing as “media spin that’s died out” then refused to admit how much money LIV has lost so far. If the profitability of LIV is seemingly unimportant, why are we ridiculous to think PIF and the Saudi government have an ulterior motive I.e their global image.
To dismiss the Saudi human rights record as a “bad history” is insane. Homosexuality is still a crime with a sentence of capital punishment. Prisoners are still being tortured. Innocent people are still being murdered. To get into bed with them for the promise of limitless money is shameful.
This episode has championed a fascist regime that repressed 50% of its population and criminalises 10%. The pod is usually great at highlighting the greatness of the game’s values and the programs aiming to help the game’s growth and inclusivity e.g. Ellis’s baby rhino camps.
To top it off the proposed format is just an adaptation of the world sevens series which still struggles to generate high TV ratings (where the NFL, IPL and BPL earn the majority of their money). This format also cuts off the club game and many huge markets such as Ireland, NZ, Scotland and Wales, a move which would massively stunt the game’s growth.
I hope the team really think about the message this pod gives out to how inclusivity and values pale in comparison to fast cash.
Money talks is the sad reality, pod will no doubt be being handed a brown envelope to steer the audience to the way they want
So do you not get anything made in china or America? Both with bad and current human rights records
The West pushing their bleeding heart values on the world has caused more problems than cured them
China, Saudi and others are the future. The future of the West will merely become a stale museum if they don't change mindset
To give this platform so uncritically is disgraceful. The director of the PIF is the SAME MAN who's rule sees journalists murdered and imprisoned, refugees shot at the border, teenagers detained and beaten for speaking against the state. God forbid any of YOUR CHILDREN attend these events and adhere to any LGBT group or identity, lest they be arrested for non-confornist behaviour. I'm heartened only by the responses in the comments. Take a bloody look at yourselves and ask what you'll stand for and what you'll platform.
He sits there in his leafy study dismissing human rights abuses as media spin from "opposition" without a moments thought for the countless victims of the Saudi regime… disgusting
awww
I’m afraid the channel has just nose dived itself into the ground.
Tindall is a poor choice of pundit anyway, just sits rubbing his head, reading his phone and offers virtually no opinion anyway.
This was a terrible piece of journalism where the only justification was more money for the players.
Once again it has shown that since the game went professional in 1995, it has lost all of its soul and what made it special.
Yes it’s a physically faster and bigger game, but at what cost?
Now taking the Saudi money with their state policy of sportswashing is being dismissed as media hype?? Presumably by people on the Saudi payroll???
Dreadful broadcast, you should be embarrassed.
Just look at the reaction on here.
That’s one subscription you have lost. Goodbye.
@user-sd3hb6ru1w well said - thank you
This was just a job interview for Tindall. He doesn't really care about rugby if he's prepared to sell the game to the Saudi's. The great thing about rugby union is that people play it for the love of the game, money can't buy you love.
Tindall's a royal. He's not a moral person
This was one of the most shameless and soulless podcasts I have ever listened to. I'm not quite sure how I sat through the whole thing. I usually listen on Spotify so I went out my way to find somewhere to discuss this.
Completely messing with the current clubs and system? Just assuming the fans would automatically love this new Super League? Creating new super clubs based in global cities while pandering to corporate fans instead of real fans? Not to mention taking Middle Eastern blood money! So much for rugby values and a community game. I can't believe these guys lacked the self-awareness to spout this shite with a straight face.
I expected better from you, GBR. Especially Alex.
It frightens me that it’s probably not just these three ( well maybe not Alex) would be rugby entrepreneurs who are sitting around talking like this. As an ex player, treasurer, chairman and president of a small club in the south of England and now a season ticket holder of a club in the French ProD2 which is vying for promotion to the Top 14 I would hate to see Saudi money and ethics take control of the world game. I don’t have a solution myself but do accept that in England in particular the unviable state of the top clubs is an enormous problem.There must be another solution other than bailing this great game out with tarnished money.
This is purely because the English game is f******. All the clubs are basically bankrupt and they think they can steam roll the rest like they did for the Heineken changes….
I think with the new rules making the game faster and with clubs in both Premiership and Super League struggling financially as well as being overshadowed by the monster of Soccer and the EPL then a merged Rugby code could be the answer.
Jesus Christ, Tindall’s response to the litany of reasons why Saudi money should not be welcome in sport is fatuous, repugnant and almost as naive as thinking that any of the profit that this new venture would make would trickle down to the domestic unions and clubs. Let’s hope his amazing intellect is whisked off to this nascent organisation pronto. As for the concept, well I’m an old bag who will always be club over country anyway so I consider franchises to be a step too far (as I do in cricket) but I accept I’m not in the target market.
cricket for me is dead because i don't enjoy T20 that much
@@gunner4life568 it is hard to escape the short form of the game these days but Test cricket is still alive and is the pinnacle of the sport. The Hundred was specifically set up to be played during the school summer holidays in order to attract families and to interest children. It is detested by most cricket fans because it means Test cricket can’t be played in August. Sounds like big money coming into The Hundred will do the core of the sport harm. This is what they want for rugby.
@@Rosalicious297 what I mean is Test cricket which is a format I love the most is almost dead in most countries besides England, Australia and India . Just look at the test attendance in South Africa, WI etc compared to the short format plus no country take it seriously besides the top 3 hence I said it is almost dead
@@gunner4life568 that is very true except when England tour. I’ve toured to South Africa and the WI for tests and they are well attended. But generally I agree with you.
@@Rosalicious297 not anymore btw I am south African look at the crowd attendance against India the previous summer poor attendance and it has been coming plus also see what we did by prioritizing SA20 over test matches against new Zealand
I am just 😂😂😂, the assumption here is that Leinster, Munster, Northampton, Saracens, Cardiff, Edinburgh,…. fans will all come together and support the London Red Bulls global franchise is a joke.
It's not about supporting the franchises, it's basically attending the events. They couldn't care less who you support, as long as you're through the door on the day.
And you'll only have one home game weekend annually. Its not viable.
Stinks off Kerry Packers World Rugby Circus.
The justification of sports-washing was terrible. What a terrible future. Ultimately the future he painted was one of exploiting the fans even more.
Brush over all the human rights issues!!! "This isnt a shownfor that talk". Tindall should be ashamed of himself.
Please no Saudi money. Rugby is my one escape from sport infected by blood money!
Well said here here 👍👍
Agreed, well said👍
I accept I dont have a solution for the finacial straits that rugby finds itself in and yes true no country is perfect regarding human rights but this is capitalism without conscience. I am a lifelong rugby supporter and club season ticket holder. As a woman and supporter of human rights if Saudi money is accepted and enters the frame I will not hesitate to sever (with regret) all connections with the sport. Denial is not just a river in Africa.
ps I have lived and worked in the Middle East for almost 2 years albeit a few years ago now but try and keep abreast of whats happening out there.
I'm extremely sceptical that rugby has 800 million fans globally, where are they getting these outlandish figures from?
Completely agree. Rolled my eyes when I heard that. They often quote the Rugby World Cup as the third most watched sporting event in the world (presumably after the Olympics and the men’s Football World Cup) but I’m willing to bet the IPL or either of the cricket world cups have a higher viewing figure even with just the billion people in India alone watching. In the countries in which it is played (bar possibly NZ) rugby is a minority sport (I used to live in Cape Town and football is way more popular in ZA).
Agree - I think that’s likely ‘potential fans’, which is pie in the sky.
Rugby needs to accept what it is. Those that love it - adore it. We love it’s core values, yes, the physicality, the camaraderie.. but it’s never going to be football, it’s just not made up that way, Union has nuances and complexity that will always alienate the majority of a population. Again, those that revel in it.. love the complexity. And we are all in that camp.
Think I’m just gonna listen to Kickoff and Kickons than this from now on.
I'm very glad that the comments section has vastly more sense than the panel on this episode, a rare thing to see on CZcams. You were huffing on the copium big time on this one lads. Very poor show. Saudi is a murderous, oppressive, climate destroying regime who are leeching their tendrils of influence far too widely in more areas than just sport. I would be gravely disappointed if rugby were ever propped up by dirty Saudi money. Perhaps when you cover something as divisive as this in future, you bring in some opposition for just a modicum of balance.
Felt like i just went through a saudi washing machine, total wash
Tins ignores NZ in his model and prefers Australia becos of stadium size? Mate, you're never gonna be the CE or key ambasador of any global rugby game if your starting position ignores the Kiwis! And a correction Tins - the global fan base of rugby according to the Neilson survey in 2019 was 405M. Followers were at the 800M level, not fans. Nevertheless, point still holds: we need to create more value to reward players and grow the game. Moreover, still a great show. From a fan in Wellington, NZ! Go the Canes!
NO SPORTS should be involved in the awful Saudi regime.
Tinns royal family, the king, loves Saudi, I was on his boat when we met him on his tour of Saudi in 1993 if memory serves me right. Saudi is an appalling place for humanity and most certainly any sport which takes its money.
I don't buy that Rugby needs Saudi investment to improve its marketability and profitability. World Rugby has started to play with law changes to "improve" the speed of the game. Every change will have its fans and its detractors, but in my opinion, rugby broadcasters, clubs and unions can get together to and reimagine the game's outreach (without totally ripping up tradition) by trialing some relatively low-cost amendments to the game such as:
+ amp up scrums and lineouts during broadcast (lineout height, pack weights, tight-head compressive forces, Scrummager of the Match)
+ have referees announce penalties clearly over a PA similar to how they do in the NFL,
+ have sponsorship underneath the TMO or something to spruce that dead time up,
+ put names and unique numbers (or letters even, Bath-style) on the jerseys for greater salability (and use better fonts than the boring, ugly one they use in the Prem),
+ give the players nicknames and podcasts/CZcams magazine shows to help amplify their profile,
+ trading cards for kids - both physical, via food (chocolate/gum) sponsors, and digital,
+ a worldwide club-level fantasy rugby and tipping platform,
+ a twice-weekly global rugby round-up program (review on Monday, preview on Thursday) on CZcams and RugbyPass TV that showcases comps around the world
+ a best-practice tailgating procedure created by a panel of the best clubs (Blue Bulls) and shared with all professional clubs,
+ allow clubs to sell their merch through a global platform (it's such a pain to get Toulouse merch to Australia),
+ improve RugbyPass TV so that we can selectively pay for competitions live and on demand without a broadcasting deal in the country you're in (eg Top 14, URC and JRLO in Australia)
+ consider selling ad space to HNW global brands on RugbyPass to subsidise it: UBS, Saxo Bank, Emirates, Heineken, Asahi, Mastercard etc
+ help the multiple professional comps around the world start accompanying Sevens series in their off-seasons to build tournament revenue and build rugby's profile for fairweather fans
+ double down on tradition by selling traditional rugby jerseys, blazers, tough old school rugby shorts and sweats that are such a rich part of the game's heritage. It's been profitable for Ralph Lauren and Rowing Blazers, team up with them or Canterbury to create a World Rugby brand (don't call it World Rugby) that helps amplify that heritage
+ More global Baa Baas games. In partnership with professional clubs and unions, that club should/could have clubhouses around the world in the form of old school rugby pubs where you can get a pint and a good feed surrounded by old rugby photos, jerseys and other memorabilia.
Plenty in here. I’d add in a global Heineken/Champions Cup so the best club teams in each region can duke it out in a Super Round type tournament.
@@thewielloyd988 I think a merged Premiership and Super League , Unions Championship and Rugby Leagues Championship....imagine how good the fixture list for grass roots clubs be in Yorkshire, Lancashire and Cumbria if both codes of Rugby merged into 1 game alongside summer sports of Touch and Tag.
It sounds like it'll be aimed at the corporate followers rather than the average fan who goes to watch his team week in week out.....
Like a lot of other sports the average fan will be squeezed out through the cost of the product....
Wait for it! Tindall working for Piv in the near future! You saw it here first 😊
Brown envelopes have already been handed out no doubt
@@ConorRobinson Just like pre 1995
They're going to take all the best suggestions from the pod cast fans and add them into the mix next week to develop the LIV Rugby idea. I have read through all the comments so far and I don't see more than two or three positive comments. If your audience is a cross section of the English rugby fan landscape then it's a resounding NO by the looks of it.
Is Tindal sponsored by the Saudi Gov' and best mates with Gary Neville?
Tindall comes across like he has been already sounded out and probably paid as a spokesperson/promoter for the concept.
£3-500 a day, going to a game, way to engage the masses! All about wringing every last penny out of people who 30-40 years ago, whether it is football, rugby or cricket, didn't have to pay anything like that amount of money as a percentage of their take home money to go and watch.
No problem with any "new" competitions", but listening to this pod, hear are a few thoughts:
Do we want the game that we enjoy becoming another one of the money driven circuses like "live golf" or (over the last 25years) F1?
RU will NEVER compete in uk europe and latin america with football (i refuse to call it soccer!) because its so much more complex, and so many more kids and adults play football (sure it's a partially contact sport but nowhere near the level of RU!)
The club situation in uk reflects that lack of interest.
Was really appalled at the idea of " sports betting " being a " good thing".. gambling is NOT something that should be encouraged in ANY sphere of life and society!!!
Thanks for mentioning the human rights record of Saudi Arabia... But was astonished when Tyndal kind of brushed that away by saying the UK has its problems! To compare my country and its hard won democracy and rights to Saudi was unbelievable!
However, interesting, if capitalstically flawed discussion.
Netflix habe at least made an inroad in promoting the game via "Full Contact"..sure someof the purists moaned.. but is that maybe more the way to go?
If you put a vote to your regular viewers on Saudi money.. then mine would be a NO !
Thanks for the pods and also for the great commentary on R4!
Cheers guys.
82k attended Leinster v Nhampton @ Croke Park. Rugby in IRL doing fine thanks. Maybe fix the Premiership.
Irish rugby is loaded towards Leinster
Rugby has only done so well there because of the failure of football there. In the uk they’ve done football way better. Plus Leinster are guaranteed to win nearly every time so that helps
In their suggested format Ireland wouldn’t even have a Franchise 😂
@@jakeclough8090 GAA is Irelands football
The prem holds a couple of regular games each year with numbers not too far off those you mention... Regular league games.
So Ireland, Scotland, wales and New Zealand wouldn’t have a franchise.. but big up the Jeddah all stars.. what the fk are they thinking. I’m a ‘young fan’ and all for radical change in the game but the suggested format is laughable and would KILL the club game.
This is why the Nigel’s should never be allowed to have a say in running our sport.
Also its not productive to compare the US NFL to RU.
Amercan football has been a No1 professional sport in the USA for a long time and had a huge following in a a country of nearly 400 million people; its a national sport!
Like football is here and in europe!
What have they to sell?? They have already mortgaged themselves to CVC and the money has been spent. TV deal is down as the market isn’t there. It’s not global for LIV
Plus…….the thought that no one has picked up the rights for European rugby for next season…..WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lads its supposed to be rugby. If you want start a golf channel. I normally love the show. Been yo one of your live tours in Southend. Fuck of the golf. Rugby please. Or I'll we will just go to the rugby pod that actually talks about rugby.
Err…..no they don’t. It’s mostly mock accents and stuff about how big players’ dongs are or the size of their bush.
Rugby is not an elitist sport, and the game needs to develop from the ground upwards but It's clear that main goal discussed and agrred was just about getting more money for the few top performers. Sure, the game needs changes but taking money from the Saudi regime is not the way to make rugby better. Fix the game in England and what it costs and where money comes from. This was what I expected but none the less disappointing. We should not get involved with Saudi money.
Been watching all the sports in the last 5+ years that Saudi has been throwing cash at, bringing in-country with domestic events.... golf, tennis, f1, boxing... in every case there's the controversy of "sportwashing" just behind the curtain, which is immediately a concern and something no sport needs. The debates within each sport tend to create divisions, and in the case of at least golf there's been real disruption to the existing, long-standing competitions. Then you watch the boxing, Fury vs Usyk, over the last several days. You're confronted with the weird spectacle of obsequious praise towards the "Kingdom" and its many high ranking officials, all from the Royal crop. It feels painfully outdated, if not mildly offensive on an egalitarian level. And the question with any investment is, what are you required to give back? You have to ask if rugby has adequately protected itself around recent waves of investment? Has the CVC deal been good for the sport, all things considered? I'd be very, very concerned about what a cash-hungry league would put on the table if the incentives appeared attractive on a short term basis.
I hope the GBR folk read the comments so they can understand how poorly this has been received! The idea of selling the game to the highest bidder is sickening, how can they have the best interests of the game at heart if they have no interest in it? How many people in Saudi play or watch Rugby? Who would this benefit, because it's certainly not the fans!
I get the concept and something needed for the sport but it will just sideline the nations who are looking to develop the game such as Portugal, Uruguay, Georgia etc as their players will not get a look into this new super league on draft.
The problem about fans is that some of the fans are from countries where rugby is not as developed as in England or France. So you can't reach their money because without developing local rugby, TVs don't buy professional leagues tv rights, and people in those countries can't pay for it.
In Spain we can't watch it easily, so this makes it difficult for fans to buy the product, merchandising, etc.
Help other markets and you will grow, in investment, in fans and in relevance all over the world.
The pod got a pay off through Tins royal mates
Surely this will could kill off the club game as fans would still be expected to pay £50 a ticket to watch second tier sport.
There has got to be a better way forward than just selling out to Saudi money. What happens when they become bored of the whole thing and dump it so many years in the future?
NFL works mostly because of the college system providing a neverending stream of players. College players are unpaid!. The average playing career of an NFL player is 3 years.
14:18, when are we going to stop talking about poxy golf?
The unavoidable problem is the lack of grassroots support for many clubs. The traditional 100+ year old clubs are not big enough so we make regional clubs that do not represent anyone. Outside of (some) internationals, private schools get the largest crowds in Australia of 10 - 15,000 for certain matches. Tours are dead unless combined super teams (Lions, Barbars), Except maybe tours of the USA colleges with juniors to encourage it in the USA with "get spotted and study in America" tours.
Rather flippantly basically saying well if everyone else is doing it?
Also this would never work. Tribalism is a cornerstone of rugby. Golfers represent a whole nation or just an individual. No one in Leicester, Gloucester, Bath etc are going to pay to support a London based team let alone anyone in Wales or Scotland. All the teams bar Worcester that went bust moved away from their fan base. The Irish model works because the team's have traditional local support. Paying players millions doesn't fix rugby's problems. A very silly conversation. This is an RFU/England problem in that their proffesionalism system doesn't work. Don't get me started on relegating the importance of international rugby either.
How many of this world fan base you talk of could afford £350+ for a day out
Setting the moral question of the source of money aside for a moment, the adding of money to the top of the pyramid like this is just another ineffective version of “trickle down economics”. Adding money to the top just makes a few top earning “stars” richer and their publicity management richer still.
This doesn’t work in the sport of rugby which needs a professional squad of 40+ vs other sports with smaller squads where they can all be stars.
IF, they take the money it should be spent in a long term sustainable way on the foundations at a local club level (local advertising, facilities, equipment, coaches,physios etc). This would attract a solid base of players and supporters which would grow over time into a larger fan base/tv audience for the professional leagues.
This approach would be a long term strategy with the payoff far into the future which may not be popular with those who have short term, self serving, financial interests.
No way to Saudi- let them sink their money in helpin refugees!!!! Oh yes no they wont. Not happy for this week podcast
Assume you mean money from an undemocratic regime just for men's rugby. Hypocrisy.
I've already been concerned about WXV and Sevens embracing venues in nations that stand against queer people; the women's teams usually have openly out players and the thought of having to hide that or not play is repugnant. I don't think you can form a partnership with an investor without trying to share the game's values. Acceptance, tolerance, friendship, equality.
I did find it an interesting comparison - accurate numbers or not - of fans translating to revenue between rugby and NFL. I definitely don't advocate for three hour games filled with sponsorship breaks, but it is a topic to ponder. I don't give a shit about players making millions of dollars to buy 10 flashy cars or whatever, but the clubs do need to make enough money to be viable businesses and grow the game.
1:12:06 how can you say this nfl-lite is the least intrusive way to restructure rugby? Surely the least intrusive way is to provide the club teams with owners who’s pockets are deep enough to properly invest in them. Why are we not looking at the success of football instead of the success of American football
Look how football pushed back against the 'attempted 'super league', which this kind of is, it is different in rugby so I think NFL comparison fits, particularly with revenue share. I'm trying to keep an open mind, as status quo scares me, no TV rites for Europe, potentially more bankrupt clubs etc.
Jesus. H. Christ.
As exciting as the "8 ball" sounds... I think rugby needs to look more football to make things work. The infrastructure is built the same way with leagues per country and then champions league/Heineken cup to bring it together and then saving the value of the world cup for these international meetings of the giants. But figuring out how football makes such it massive commercial success out of the Premier league and country league alike and save the international clashes for a special occasion is built for success
Where are the supporters for these 8 new teams coming from ?. Some marketing company clicks its fingers and says "here's a new team, support it".
RFU already screwed the County game over and now the Premiership has 3 less clubs alongside the Championship also the grass roots clubs are losing players and not getting newbies in the clubhouse.
Some concerning stuff here. Money from anywhere because “other sports are”, doesn’t seem like a good argument. Russian or Chinese backing too? Maybe, I don’t know. What the hypothetical ‘elite league’ talked about here is the absolute lack of skin in the game the supporters would have. Successful sports that endure are built off tribalism of geography. These plastic teams with no roots would put on great shows I’m sure, but there’s no heart and soul to it. There’s no history there. Skin-deep rugby with no substance.
As I’ve suggested on other threads, any investment coming in should be to have central ownership of leagues/clubs (like NFL or similar), with the leagues laddering up to European/international cup competitions. The top teams from Prem, Top 14 and URC go into a straight knockout European cup. SA teams go back to southern hemisphere with South America, Japan, Pacific Islands, Oz and NZ. These two super comps. (NH and SH) happen after the domestic seasons, with the winners playing off in a showcase event to be crowned World Champions.
0:01 - Show Intro
0:57 - Show starts
3:24 - Mark Foster joins us
5:44 - Fozzy the Rugby Player
7:29 - Gloucester & 90-0
12:55 - Mark's day-to-day
16:10 - How did LIV Golf come about?
25:28 - Is Golf better for LIV?
29:35 - Justifying the challenges
32:45 - Can Rugby take money from Saudi Arabia?
38:26 - Where to put the money?
41:05 - Are conversations happening?
47:30 - How easy is it to change Rugby?
50:52 - Commercial Success for LIV?
1:05:45 - Is it needed?
Great idea, rugby definitely needs a change and some capital from somewhere. Rugby has for too long chopped off its nose to spite its face, hence the division of the codes nearly a century ago - it may have taken a hundred years, but hopefully the sport has eventually learnt from the error of its ways.
Have 16 Franchises: The equivalent number to one of the two NFL conferences
London
Dublin
Paris
Barcelona
Rome
Vancouver
LA
NYC
Buenos Aires
Cape Town
Auckland
Sydney
Perth
Hong Kong
Tokyo
(Gulf State Team)
One big weekend, in each city as spoken about in the pod - plus an invitational.
There should be draft rules in place to keep some local sentiment as well as promoting the international sentiment of the tournament. Therefore, (bar HK and the Gulf state) each team is required to have 5 eligible players from the country the franchise represents - bar the 2 US bases teams, Vancouver and Spain - who require 2; which may be tough on them at the beginning but will pay dividends for the country in the long run.
Also, for the 12 sides with the 5 national player rule, each team can only have as many players from another nation as they do for their own nation - i.e: if ‘London Mavericks’ only has 10 of the 25 man squad as English, they can’t have 11 kiwis. To prevent teams, from having a dilemma during the draft, there will be a preliminary draft round where the franchises get ‘first dibs’ of those players who put themselves forward for the draft representing the country where the franchise is based, i.e: ‘CPT Titans’ get a chance to draft Cheslin first.
To prevent teams such as the Cape Town and Auckland picking a completely home based team and diminishing the nature of an international draft: as well as a minimum, there will be a maximum of 15 of the 25 man squad allowed to be picked from the same country - (All Blacks in the Auckland squad). Given the abundance of talent in NZ for example, even with 15AB’s at the Auckland franchise, there will still be plenty of talent up for the taking.
Following the preliminary round, there will be an open draft where any player who has put themselves forward will be up for the taking, should they have not already been retained, picked in the previous round and the salary cap permit.
The prospective unions and feeder leagues get a slice of the revenue generated by their host franchise, and sell on clubs, get a commission of the player pickups (the exact numbers can be crunched by the statisticians).
So disappointed. A badly conceived and executed show. Listen to the comments..
Think you need to do your own 'washing' after that!
This change would be a lot easier if World Rugby had as its Chair Augustin rather the big Bill
I don't dispute the rugby needs money, but what came across clearly was that they just want money - anyone's money - in the game and will manufacture any argument to support that point, even if it means contradicting themselves. 10s rugby failed because the "traditional rugby fan prefers 15s". I'd wager that the traditional fan rugby wouldn't take kindly to seeing their Premiership or Province team relegated to being a feeder system for the global league. As others have pointed out, no-one from Scotland, Ireland or Wales is going to throw their support behind a London franchise - or vice-versa and while watching or going to one of these events would be interesting, without any real connection to the new team I, for one, wouldn't get up in the middle of the night to watch a match on the other side of the world. The argument that suddenly 800,000 'fans' (lacking definition) would suddenly be buying replica gear from an e-commerce platform is so deluded as to not warrant further comment.
For what it's worth, I would have thought that after several years in the job, Foster would have come up with a better answer to the point about sports-washing and human rights abuses (note: not about the use of oil products in our daily lives!) I'd have a lot more respect for him and others in his position if he just admitted that while the Saudi's track record is appalling in that area, a calculated - and, frankly, understandable, decision was made to compromise beliefs and accept the money - or in his case the job.
I don't believe this would be the end fix. Look at the Packer World Series in Cricket, in the 80s. Once the money got bored, it faded away. But from that, we got night cricket, colour tops and more importantly, better TV rights and coverage. Which then led to the birth of the IPL. I think this 'super club' system would kill the Prem and the Top 14. I would much prefer the World Club Comp (which is already in the works). Same kind of idea, but you build on the fan base that's already there.
I don't have any issues dealing with them and would love to see a global club tournament
Britain has giving so much industry to the world tho, it will be dangerous giving them even more tho
This comment section shows why a rugby pod needs to be having a discussion such as this... Closed minded and not open to new ideas fans.
Yes, Saudi bad... Investment and new thinking good, or at least worth a chat.
The Good, the Bad, the Ugly truth reveals itself…
It's never an easy conversation to have where Saudi is concerned. But if you remove the Saudi aspect, and instead look at is as American investment, all of a sudden this becomes a LOT more attractive. On a sporting and financial level, it would be fantastic. The IPL proves this model can work, if things carry on as they are, rugby is in danger of swallowing itself and returning to semi-professional level given the evident lack of money within the game.
IPL is played in a country of 1 billion people that is cricket mad.
Agree with you that this would be an interesting topic to look at if it was US, Portuguese etc funded. I don't think this global F1 style completion would work. Maybe I'm close minded? Rugby does need to do something.
@@dec76783 I want to see Wigan play Bath again and even York Knights v Cornish Pirates and a merged Donaster will double the crowds.
Look, it’s all very well, this rugby talk bit what I want to know is, when is Zowie Tindall coming back on?
Tindall talks about a maximum of 20 games a season for these players. That might be where it starts but not where it finishes. Just look at the NFL. The last Collective Bargaining Agreement agreed to a 17 game season. Then you get the NFL Commissioner during the Draft mentioning that it's likely to go to 18 games. So the players will be exploited regardless of how much you pay them. The more games you can sell the rights to, the more money for those in charge to make.
The rugby world cup, and the six nations were hugly enjoyable and pretty well watched events, without alot of over the top razzmatazz etc.
There must be many possible sponsors out there whose organisations have people within them that love the game so why go to companies and sponsors from the middle East who i would presume have little or no interest in it ?
Suprised Elon Musk hasn't put his hand in his pocket.
You could have the Barbarians be one of the teams and have them be the team based out of the "invitational" country. Gets a brand that rugby fans know all around the world back being relevant and would add a brand new element to the Barbarians history
The business of rugby at a national and international level is broken. Rugby, and especially the "old order" cannot solve the problems they created since professionalization. There is no strategic planning or ability to separate short term financial need that is driven by self interest and bias. This does not mean accepting PIF money is the solution or listening to this horrendous apologist for the Saudi regime.
Rugby League all ready do this magic round,league and union need to join forces and make new game.
Check my comments above.
That Gloucester team wasn't as bad as 90-0. The coaches have been slightly been bailed out by that narrative. Also, this episode is both a fascinating insight into what might be coming, but also a mirror on the current state of the Premiership. One of the more exciting finishes in years, and the most popular rugby podcast in the UK doesn't cover it.
Yes. Golf is the structure to follow 100%. Good demographic, good fan base, great concept
were there any lessons learnt from the football World Cup
It will bring in more money and create a more professional environment, yes NFL makes a hell of a lot of money but that money is also distributed fairly to all teams in the league not the top 4. If you look at how cricket, F1 and other sports have suffered initially because of paid channels. Whilst the toffs might not be struggling but your average fan isn't going to get Premier Sports, TNT Sports and Sky to watch rugby...on top Netflix etc. It becomes a luxury that can be dropped...great discussion to be had. It needs the money but the "touring" tournament already exists in 7s?
The whole thing just saddens me.please stop .i would never call anyone his excellency unless it’s the royal family because it’s what most of us respect and are proud of .never to a man who gives me loads of money I’ve never meet and don’t respect..I KNOW AM AN OLD FART(pardon the pun )BUT THE WHOLE THING STINKS 😩
Great idea, rugby definitely needs a change and some capital from somewhere. Rugby has for too long chopped off its nose to spite its face, hence the division of the codes nearly a century ago - it may have taken a hundred years, but hopefully the sport has eventually learnt from the error of its ways.
Have 16 Franchises: The equivalent number to one of the two NFL conferences
London
Dublin
Paris
Barcelona
Rome
Vancouver
LA
NYC
Buenos Aires
Cape Town
Auckland
Sydney
Perth
Hong Kong
Tokyo
(Gulf State Team)
One big weekend, in each city as spoken about in the pod - plus an invitational.
There should be draft rules in place to keep some local sentiment as well as promoting the international sentiment of the tournament. Therefore, (bar HK and the Gulf state) each team is required to have 5 eligible players from the country the franchise represents - bar the 2 US bases teams, Vancouver and Spain - who require 2; which may be tough on them at the beginning but will pay dividends for the country in the long run.
Also, for the 12 sides with the 5 national player rule, each team can only have as many players from another nation as they do for their own nation - i.e: if ‘London Mavericks’ only has 10 of the 25 man squad as English, they can’t have 11 kiwis. To prevent teams, from having a dilemma during the draft, there will be a preliminary draft round where the franchises get ‘first dibs’ of those players who put themselves forward for the draft representing the country where the franchise is based, i.e: ‘CPT Titans’ get a chance to draft Cheslin first.
To prevent teams such as the Cape Town and Auckland picking a completely home based team and diminishing the nature of an international draft: as well as a minimum, there will be a maximum of 15 of the 25 man squad allowed to be picked from the same country - (All Blacks in the Auckland squad). Given the abundance of talent in NZ for example, even with 15AB’s at the Auckland franchise, there will still be plenty of talent up for the taking.
Following the preliminary round, there will be an open draft where any player who has put themselves forward will be up for the taking, should they have not already been retained, picked in the previous round and the salary cap permit.
The prospective unions and feeder leagues get a slice of the revenue generated by their host franchise, and sell on clubs, get a commission of the player pickups (the exact numbers can be crunched by the statisticians).
I agree with you rugby hasn't helped itself before or after professionalism. Hence the situation it now finds itself in. So we should be looking at things that might be successful.
Not sure this is it.
How do you fit 8 full games of rugby into a single city over one weekend? It also won't be good for player welfare when every weekend they play a game then hop on a plane.
How is a fan from Toulouse supposed to build a connection with a team in Paris that plays 1 or 2 home games a year and half the televised games are shown at inconvenient hours? I'd also say my Toulouse fan would look at their strong domestic competition, thriving international program and ask why that should be pushed down.
(This is a pushback on the logistics, not including the moral aspect)
@@dec76783 Potentially, only half the games are played over that weekend and I believe I touched upon the other critiques in the other response.
Very interesting comments
Absolutely horrendous takes.
No morality when cash is involved. This is so wrong, human abuses, murder on foreign soil and total dismissal of human rights are to serious to sports wash.
Rugby is falling on it's sword. We all love the game so it is inivetiable that this amazing sport will join up with the money and if so I hope it's for the better of the game
As long as the grass roots of the rugby pyramid are looked after….i’m in! Where do i sign 😂
…as long as they take it away from the RFU…
Just reading the comments, I think people are focusing on the wrong thing, it doesn’t need to be Saudi money it’s more about a global profitable format… the money could be American for example, sponsorship from the likes of Amazon/ Tesla etc… the point is there are plenty of options the format is the important thing at this stage and what would work for all…
So basically doing what global sevens does with brand new teams in places that omit the rugby heartlands like NZ, Scotland, Wales and Ireland is good how? It just undermines the club game and imagines that fans will care about these made up teams. No rivalries or history or any connection to grassroots. It would never turn a profit in 1000 years
I mean, the whole podcast was like an advert for Saudi money, so not that surprising that people are focussing on that
Lol such stupid open ended questions for mark to push a PR line
Disgusting. Tyndall married to royal family ok with Saudi total family destroying the game. Mad how they came up with this idea on the fly..
Great content made in the Roar, another aspect of this conversation, is the admission that administrators have failed in running the game
Great episode. Most exciting discussion about the future of rugby you have ever had and something that I think all fans around world could get onboard with. It takes the best bits from HK Sevens and big events like Premiership Finals day and knockout European Rugby with the best players and creates buzz and excitement. I really hope this concept can get off the ground! Rugby needs to embrace change and needs to do something differently!
I think it could be easier than you think as long as the old farts get their free tickets and hospitality for their wives and family plus first class air travel Thats all they are interested in. I was very much the stick but eventually the RFU accepted the carrot
When we changed relegation, had alcohol on the terraces, half time went to 10/15 minutes The RFU were in full agreement. They were not happy when we bought the international players but the Clubs won the day. I think the Club owners/shareholders will have to be compensated but the International committees will interested in having the conversation
The RFU are awful from losing the Northern clubs that set up Rugby League and in eyes and giving Soccer the free pass to become the biggest sport in England.Banning players for life for setting foot on a Rugby League ground to banning the currant WR chairmen Bill Beaumont and fellow England player Fran Cotton for bringing out their autobiography etc.
You never answered the question, twice as many fans but not near the money…that’s the first question. And only question
This world tournament sounds amazing
English lad thinks Rugby isn't going well. You mean English Rugby isn't going well?
I'm sold by the idea. In Australia all the best footy players go to NRL as they can offer massive contracts that RA could never offer, if they can earn similar or better, RA would be far better
No,no, no!!!
I understand the concerns with taking an investment from Saudi but at the moment it doesn't seem we have much choice unless another miracle investor comes along, as rugby in its current state is a highly uninviting prospect in terms of commercial viability. Every time a club goes bankrupt 40 people lose their jobs and the fact that the TV rights for the Champions Cup next year are unwanted by UK television platforms should be a frightening wake-up call for anyone doubting the incredibly ominous future of English rugby if there isn't change. I also, initially didn't like the narrative of the video when the clip was shown of a super league being discussed on the media platforms as I didn't like the idea of damaging the club/grassroots game or pulling clubs from their prospective comps - but this structure doesn't remove the club game but ensures that the club/grassroots game doesn't die of bankruptcy. If fans don't like the idea of supporting a franchise they can still support their local club, whether it be Gloucester, Doncaster or Chinnor but can support in good faith knowing that their beloved club will still exist in a years time. For anyone doubting the financial viability of such a model, only has to look at F1 and its commercial success over the past few years, the franchise model should win over the younger generations and the American market, who the game will need (in particular the prior) for it to succeed in the long run. Rugby Union, is reportedly the 4th largest sport in the UK in terms of general fan engagement - only behind football, F1 and athletics; however, amongst Gen Z rugby isn't even in the top 10 (behind the likes of basketball and badmington) - this should again be a wake-up call for those who truly love the game. Bassically, every other sport has taken money from Saudi - most of whom need cash far less than our sport, the ship on morality has sailed and we must now jump. Beggers can't be choosers and at this point in time we may have to choose between a Saudi backed league or no league at all.
If Harlequins lose Smith, Marler, Care etc, I imagine they will also lose some casual fans. Probably sponsorship as well. Meaning suddenly maybe they can't afford to keep players, or support their youth program, or community outreach, women's program etc.
I think the only new money this competition would bring into the game is from a sovereign wealth investment fund. It won't create genuine new sponsorship, fans, TV deals etc. It's just oil money papering over the cracks. Steve Landsdown x 2,000.
Don't know where in the world you live, but if a new franchise is created that is 8 hours from where you live, only plays and most of the non-home games are played at inconvenient hours for you, how much support and connection will you have for that team? If you have kids, will they grow up feeling connected to a team they don't watch?
Rugby will never become big in the US. They have enough sports.
I'm questioning myself about being the type of person that is holding back the sport - plenty of people in the US are avid NFL fans despite never getting to see their team live. Rugby does need to change.
Not sure if this model will grow the sport for the better though, or just use external money to prop up a competition that doesn't make sense and nobody likes.
I could bring myself to come around to investments in clubs, like we heard about with Newcastle. Also, rugby isn't a popular sport, not saying we should accept it, but maybe the reality is it is a minority interest sport and it'll never be soccer or the NFL?
@@dec76783 Firstly, thank you for giving a constructive and reasonable response. I agree with you, that the international franchise model wouldn't be my first port of call, if I had the money that Saudi Aramco did but if it is the model that would attract the necessary finance then I can live with that, as it is less complex than the alternative. I am personally a massive quins fan and live half an hour outside of London, I have mates who play for quins but I also have mates who lost their job and career path when their club went bust and it is not pretty. It is interesting that you mention quins as, they are almost the perfect example of why the franchise model would work. Harlequins has become arguably the largest club in England yet has never won a champions cup or realistically come close to it, has only won the prem twice and lacks the firepower personnel which other clubs possess. This indicates that the club has a strong loyal fan base who will support their club even if it is not as glamorous as the alternatives. As you and others have touched upon, many loyalists won't travel to see a London franchise but will remain loyal to their club even if it is less glamorous than the alternative - mirroring the large support for big Championship and League 1 EFL clubs. However, despite this appearing as a negative, it is actually why I think the franchise model could work. Similarly, to how the championship football clubs touch a slightly different fan base to the prem football clubs, yet are protected financially by the top (not enough but to an extent), the franchise model would touch a slightly different fanbase to those who continue to support the prem clubs and will provide financial protection to the grassroots below it. Now obviously, football and rugby are completely different entities and I am not suggesting that the franchise model will become the behemoth that the premier league has become, but it could get a lot closer than it is now. The franchise model will tap into an international market and resources for one but also its amazing what good work off the pitch can do. One only has to look at F1 and the incredible commercial astuteness that has skyrocketed its popularity in quite a short of time, despite, in my opinion, being a far worse product than what rugby is on the pitch - UFC is another example. The UK has far too many 50/50 rugby fans, who will support their respective nation - whether it be England, Scotland or Wales, when their national side is playing well and will ignore the sport otherwise. There are millions of people like this across the UK who rugby has failed to nail down and get commercial support out of, any time other than the World Cup - which is not enough. The franchise model could be perfect for getting finance out of these 50/50 fans and fans in international markets where rugby is a minor sport - whilst the loyalists continue to support their local club. In a similar manner to how international fans and the younger generations idolise the bells and whistles of the big clubs, with big money in the prem (football) - whilst, older and more loyal fans support their club even if it plays in the lower leagues. With the support of the loyalists who, as you suggest may not warm to the franchise model, and financial support from the top, the grassroots game including the prem (rugby), should and would remain healthy. In other words, the franchise model wouldn't necessarily be for the loyal rugby fans, who pitch up to see the Bedfordshire Bules week in week out but for the market which rugby has failed to grip: 50/50 fans, the younger generations and the international market who like the sport but don't contribute enough financially. Sorry for the essay.
@@dec76783 I am not sure why the reply, got taken down. It's very annoying as I spent quite a lot of time writing it. It was something along the lines of: thanks for the reply, agreed not necessarily the ideal situation but is probably the best realistic alternative at the moment, big Quins fan, loyalists remain loyal to the prem propping up the comp, franchise competition is for current 50/50 fans (national supporters at the World Cup), younger generations and international fans. Franchise comp taps into a different market - whilst providing financial security for the sport, loyal fans continue to support their local club. Sorry the first response was much better reasoned, but I can't be bothered to rewrite it.
Gen Z seemed to like Irish and French Rugby alongside the NRL in Australia and New Zealand.
Wallabies deffs need that money 😂
Take the money Human Rights who cares who needs the LGBTQ
Yeah this will happen 😂
This is one of the BEST shows you have ever done and the insight into LIV Rugby by Mark and Tins makes me very excited. Been a rugby player and supporter all my life being born and brought up in SA. I am also a huge Bath and Wasps fan too. Well done and congratulations Alex and Tins!!!!!
Bizarre idea for a podcast
Shame on you GBR. This episode was really off the mark and total sport washing
What an outstanding idea!!! 👏🏻 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻