Horus Heresy: Loyalist Legion Tier List and Power Ranking
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- In this video I’ll be going through the Loyalist Legions, ranking them all by power level. Top Tier, Mid Tier or Hot Trash. I will be doing a separate video for the Traitor Legions as it’s simply too much to fit all in one video. While Heresy leans towards the narrative side of gaming, I know there’s plenty of players out there like myself, who want to make sure the army they’re putting thousands of dollars into, can also perform on the table. No one’s having fun when you’re losing game after game. Hopefully this list can give new players an idea on which Legions are easier to wield, and which offer those experienced players, who love an underdog, a bit of a challenge.
To get through all the Legions we’re going to have to keep things pretty light. I’ll be looking predominantly at special rules, rites of war, legion units and, by exception, anything else, such as wargear, advanced reactions or unique characters, that particularly stand out. We’ll be going in reverse order, from weakest, to strongest. Enjoy! And be sure to let me know in the comments if your order differs wildly.
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Great job as usual, I hope we can have a traitor top soon.
Congrats for the channel and thanks for all this videos.
Thanks! That'll be next 😁
If you'll be my traitor bottom, I can be your traitor top. -Alpharius
One thing I will say about the Salamanders, is that they make great allied detachments, especially as they can still take the Awakening Flame rite of war (a rare rite that is actually available to allied detachments), which gives them an extra HQ thanks to the bonus Chaplain, and makes them great to hold objectives with their resistance to pinning or help break opponent squads thanks to being able to give their units fear.
Just a small correction, the IF Castellan only gets an addittional shot for his own weapon. It doesn't carry over to any squad he is part of. Still useful, but no where near as powerful.
Just re-read it. Oh thank goodness!! 😅
Castellan is good, but only really worthwhile if bringing multiple heavy weapons squads.
Line is kind of overrated tbh, only one of the missions is it really clutch, and the other objective based missions are more reliant upon just overwhelming turn one firepower than any real objective holding.
I find the phalanx warders to be a bit expensive to really bring them with the Killy support that you want to. It’s hard to make the list work once you’ve dropped 600 points on your two units of compulsory troops that you are forced into. Also worth noting, you lose the ability to deep strike with the RoW, which means your shield boys have to walk across the board or ride in fragile rhinos, as do the terminators or characters you want to support them with. Having 600 points of stuff that dies to bolter fire with the same math as a tactical squad is oof….
They’re good, just realize you can fire regular bolters at them.
@@nathanspinks5067 The Castellan is borderline broken in this meta. There's no situation where you wouldn't want to bring scoring lascannon squads. You plop a few of those in your backfield to hold objectives, then march/drive a bunch of scoring Stone Gauntlet Phalanx Warders up the board. Couple that with Raan giving them essentially a 1.7 Invulnerable Save, and you've got a baseline infantry section that's going to take anti-Terminator firepower to deal with. And that's not even a full list.
Yes, Imperial Fists' Legion Trait can give them anti-tank hitting on 2s. But that's available to all Legions with Contemptor Dreads. It's best seen as a 25% damage increase on your Bolter Dudes (this still adds up fast though) and Assault Cannons.
I mean, you can't just say something isn't good cause 175pt, arguably over powered Contemptor Dreads can do it. Lol. But yes. Bolter and bulk assault cannons are also great.
10:00 - The Medusan Scales special rule does buff Dreadnoughts, too, as you thought. Giving any vehicle the possibility of a 4+IWND as long as you're spending points on the upgrade and fielding Ferrus is awesome. The Iron Father upgrade is (IMO) the best character upgrade in the game giving Praetors and Cataphractii Praetors 3++ and Tartarus 4++. The weapons the upgrade comes with are awesome, too, with the Melta and Flamer included. FNP 5+++ is awesome to have as a sugar coating.
Spicy takes! Love it!
Thanks for your Effort with doing this video :)
Spot on for rules on SW. I had a minor leg up on my locals since I had a bunch of stuff built, but unplayed, for HH1, but even against opponents who have experience and just as much in models, I have yet to end a game that wasn't a total tabling. 2 games without Russ, 4 games with Russ. My last game I even took out my Leviathan and Russ to make a friendlier list, and I still tabled my opponent.
What I'm hoping for, is GW fixes other armies, rather than just nerf us. I love melee. I don't want that to change.
What are you running? If you don't mind me asking 😊
@@blackbriargaming5483 varying points levels so far, and some of this is hazy now, but Pale Hunters stood out to me as a winner immediately too. The counter deploy with 3 units outflanked, creates a great hammer and anvil. Russ and Dreads on one side, outflankers on the other. I expect this to need to change as things evolve and my opponents start spamming even more heavy weapons than they already have. Your IF call outs are definitely strong and their 2+ to hit is scary, but I just don't shoot at them mostly and charge them instead so they can't return fire and wreck me. I've had the pleasure of playing against IF, IH, AL, and SoH.
Russ, Varagyr in a Spartan. I ran claws, but Frost Claws aren't great, so I swapped in some ap2 axe and hammer
1-2 Deathsworn squads in every list, outflanking.
Leviathan Dread x1 with assault cannon and fist
3x Contemptor, one with las/melta fist, one plasma and autocannon with Helical, one autocannon and fist. This squad clears screens and snipers
2x Grey Slayers
1x Stalker (I need to build a lot more of them) with 2 plasmas and a fist
@@mattjohnson2090 Is that a 3k list? If so, having 4 Dreads might be skewing your perception of it. 4 Dreads in a 3k list is borderline impossible to deal with, especially if you've also got a Varagyr deathstar with Russ.
merci pas évident de trouver cela pourtant si simple, merci pour ce travail ;)
Honestly total agreement with the scars. Sagyr Mazan is the way to go; I dont think bikes are worth it this edition, and the scars trait doesnt actually buff bikes. Granted one of their WL traits does, but you have to spend your WL trait on a buff that was previously free in every edition prior scars were involved in.
I am set on playing Raven Guard. They're far different than my Evil Sunz for 40k. And I usually choose to play what I think would be most entertaining for me.
As a Scars players I have to say that Scars aren't in as dire of a place as you claim, but they have a few things that could be improved upon.
1. With nerfs to toughness and no jink, 30 points per dude on jetbike is a bit expensive.
2. Why on God's Green Earth is Khan WS7?
3. Golden Keshig are really good, BUT they need a clarification that they ignore disordered charges when fighting with their lances, or your 250 point unit does nothing over a basic reaction. Run a Telepathy Stormseer in the meantime (but kinda lame you have to).
Would be nice if GW addressed these things, but Scars are not as bad as you think. With this army you play more of an objectives game and run around the board. If you play a straightforward melee style, you're gonna have a bad time.
But are they better than Salamanders or Raven Guard? 🤔 And yes my 'hot trash' tier was meant to be a bit controversial 😅 Got to stir the pot every now and again! 😉
@@blackbriargaming5483 White Scars is one of those armies that look a bit ehhh in theory but perform admittedly better on the table than one might think. It's something you have to see in action. Doesn't mean it doesn't have some issues tho.
As a scar’s player myself I mostly agree, the golden keshig don’t need a clarification though, they fight with the lances on the charge, the weapon itself is not a charge bonus, the +4 intuitive the lance gives is a charge bonus so they would be striking at i4
@@TeAXIIIT13 interesting, would need to read very closely to confirm
@@blackbriargaming5483 the kontos power lance is a piece of wargear, you can only use it on the charge, and it gives no bonus attacks for charging, the only thing a disorders charge affects is the sudden strike rule as the rule itself states
Before I even watch, my poor salamanders are bottom, I’m guessing.
Yeah, not last!
That's funny. Same legion, same feeling 😂 I have to say though the way to counter-balance the tier until there's some faq or something is to really put all the work on the backend tweaking that list. Also the strongest unit type in the game, dreadnoughts, really benefit from our trait ;)
Personally I'm taking the first route and playing a balanced army, but within the balanced army I do spend time making sure that it has a response to every scenario.
Good luck, brother!
Woo!! 😁😅
Vulcan makes a difference. He is THE meatshield and can soak a lot of attention and damage. Unlike other legions I feel like their Primarch is required.
Good video, but have to disagree with the white scars ranking. Jetbikes are t4 with a 3+ save, but given that in this edition they can all have special weapons for dirt cheap (5 point volkite culverin that now come with 5 shots comes to mind) plus shrouded and the bonuses to charge ranges based on movement makes chogorian brotherhood particularly hard hitting
I'm just not sold hey. Though it really depends on what their opponent brings. As an Iron Warriors player, I bring a Siege Tyrant Terminator squad every single game. 15 missiles do terrible things to Jetbikes. Shrouded or not. But yes, I knew it was going to be a controversial rating. Gotta keep things interesting :P
@@blackbriargaming5483 you're entire argument is around bringing 1 unit to every game yet say that an opponent bringing 1 unit that directly counters that unit to the game makes their argument null-and-void. Terrible.
@@blackbriargaming5483 would be a shame if those Jetbikes outflanked and hit those seige terminators like a freight train
@@blackbriargaming5483 also just for clarification, why does a hold the line reaction prohibit golden keshig fighting with their power lances?
@@joeelfleet5145 it doesnt. theyre a weapon that can only be used on charge, a disordered charge is still a charge. they lose sudden strike benefit is all
2hwt are your feelings on Grey Slayers vs Grey Stalkers? I'm leaning towards Stalkers as I think they have better weapon options and chainswords are just better than fenrisian axes
Yeah, Stalkers come out on top i think. But both have their purposes 😊
While Im happy to see the wolves in 1st as Im a wolf player I have heard differently that Scars are good maybe its the way you think of winning a game maybe not luckily its nothing more than a fun game
I was able to find the age of darkness boxset and the Liber Hereticus for 190 euro with delivery included I was shocked! the boxset its self without deleivery is around 190 euro normally 😲
I got 3 for 170€ each
Let's not forget that a Space Wolf Praetor can give him and any unit his with Counter Attack 2 to really screw any other combat Legions FOR 10pts.
Another good analysis, and agree with your views on the RG. Their legion rules just give them what they already have.
And Iron Hands moritat with a couple of those grav pistols can make any dreadnought sad, which in a dreadnought heavy meta, should give them a boost.
Oh yeah! That Moritat is terrifying!!!
Great job, i actually think im general DA are better than IF, I actually think alot of legions are, IF just have a broken rite of war. They have a broken play style, but in general I dont think they are to bad to play against. Sigi templar lists actually aren't to bad to face. Though I think you over evaluated SW, in a void on paper ye they seem good, but my experience fighting them has been: kill the rhino, they camt charge for a turn. If they arent in a rhino, oh look theyve been pinned via rotors, NB or a telepath. If they paid for an assault transport, i out manuever it and tickle whatever death star comes out before engaging. I think the wolves suffer far to much from the weaknesses of melee in this edition to be top tier. I jist domt see them surviving the guns of IW, IF, UM and DG the pinning and difficult/dangerous terrain spam of NL, AL, DG (again), IH armies. Not to mention that when they do reach melee in my experience NL, WE, SoH, EC all generally roll over them.
Maybe its just the SW players and armies I have played against but while I domt think they are bad I just dont rate them in the top tier once they get to the table
Yeah if the Space Wolves aren't bulk outflanking they're doing it wrong in a competitive setting.
@@blackbriargaming5483 haven't faced the out flank assault yet so I cant speak on that, but they definetely need something more than what I have faced and seen.
Let me see if I got this right? (I am a sallies player).
WS: Mostly decent units, decent advanced reaction, special characters pretty okay, Legion trait okay: Hot Trash
Sallies: Trash traits, trash RoW, nothing said about Vulkan, pyroclasts good, firedrakes expensive as all hell: Mid Tier?
Whut?
Where are UM if you include the legacy units within top tier
Though call. Definitely on par with Imperial Fists. Maybe even better.
Are you allowed to take demons in 30k lists? Like a greater demon or a demon prince?
So there's a whole Daemon army in 30k but it's not out yet for the new edition. Alternatively, Word Bearers can have daemons in their army, but, as I said, we don't have rules yet. If you collected daemons, you couldn't go wrong with pretty much anything from the range.
@@blackbriargaming5483 I was curious if any traitor legion could take em, like a emperors children for no specific reason lol
you say that iron hands have the best tanks, what about dreads? and are they better than iron warriors or death gaurd? Im looking at iron hand and love dreads and tanks
Yeeeaaah. They're pretty outrageous.
I would put ultra marines in top tier. There special units are insane.
Yeeaah, as I said, if you include the Legacies units they definitely get there.
What about Calth, dude? Praise the Urizen!
Looks like I picked a good one with the Fists.
You can never go wrong with Fists!
So salamanders have a problems which you limited, but you are wrong on one thing. Pyroclasts actually kinda suck. They're bs 4, have no invuln, no mobility, and flamers really don't work as a weapon this edition (redeploy back 4 inches and at max coherency, inability to shoot over your own boys with flamers, and 2+ artificer armor being baked into every good unit. Wall of death is their only real saving grace, but you're almost always better causing -1 attacks with hold the line unless you're getting swamped by tacticals or despoilers). Redeploy reactions hose them, and they will at best deliver 6 melta hits to a unit after 2-3 turns of moving up, before having the unit survive on invulns. reaction backwards means 12 inch melta simply never get armor bane vs vehicles, and against high init units it sometimes fails altogether.
I've played with them, and consistently I find that they simply get ID'd to lascannons or Scorpius after failing to really cause too much harm. They just have too many hurdles that make it hard for them to earn their points. If they ever get value, it's because the opponent made mistakes, not because they're good. Flamers and 12 inch metla seem good in a vacuum, but reactions invalidate them largely.
Very fair. Having played a lot of games since these videos it's probably time for updates 😄
good video, but disagree with White Scars and Salamanders rankings. They aren't top tier, but they absolutely are not bottom of the barrel scraping into mid-tier. just like 40k they are solid to upper mid-tier. Not going to dominate, but in the hands of a decent player they are a very tough opponent.
Before watching I'm just gonna post my own ranking to see how different yours is:
Top tier: UM, IF, SW, IH
Mid tier: WS, BA, DA
Hot trash: SM, RG
Pretty close!!
@@blackbriargaming5483 very close so far! Though I seem to value the extra movement quite a bit more then you haha 😅
@@lesbianmorgoth652 movement is for players that haven't taken enough heavy weapons 😋
@@blackbriargaming5483 I can't argue with that logic! Its not a real 30k army without 2 Leviathans and 20 marines with volkite culverins after all 😜
Just a thought on white scars. I’ve been reading through them and they’ve definitely been short changed by the fact that jet bikes are generally bad this edition. But they absolutely have a path to victory. Having an army of mostly infantry (including your warlord) that never gives any victory points when destroyed is pretty powerful and interacts with all the rulebook missions to some extent.
Outriders suck this edition for their points, but Skyhunters aren't bad. They are pretty fragile but they can pack a lot of firepower. If you want to take bikes, those are the ones to take IMO.
Space wolves: winning by causing opponents to die of laughter over all the wolfy-wolfersons
Lol, the only two legions I can stand the lore and aesthetic of are right at the bottom. I guess I'll be going traitor then.
Sure hope you don't like Thousand Sons... lol. Writing the video up now!
So only 9 of the marines are loyal that’s crazy
Imperial Fists are just broken...
Are you reviewing on actual experience or reading the book and theoryhammer? You're placing of Scars is utter hilarious - Warhammer World event in the UK late July 2022 3 White Scars armies run amok, either winning all of their games or only loosing 1. But its ok - you tell people we're no good... thats the entire point of the Scars... you dont know what has hit you - a long term White Scars player.
Ha ha. Spicy! I'd love to know what the lists look like! Both the white scars and their opponents. It might be my own personal bias as I run Iron Warriors. And jetbikes do NOT like Siege Tyrant Terminators...
But honestly great to hear! If plastic jetbikes come out I'm on those boys in a second, top tier or trash.
@@blackbriargaming5483 so Scars mostly negate the IW legion buff of +1 str bonus vs armour, etc. as the force can be all Cav and outflanking infantry with the 'trap' you call Chogorian Brotherhood. The game Scars players should be playing is board control and picking where to fight and focusing on deleting what is required to punch a hole... read the books, read how Jaghatai plays, read how the Mongols fought... If you've not faced them on the table, your opinion is heavily misleading! Most 'gunline' legion players really dont get it or throw comments about me 'running away' which is all part of how Scars fight. I've got several IW friends and faced IW there at the event. Tyrants are good but pricey and I've got ways to mitigate against them just as you think the Keshig are naff... I just need a stormseer with Telepathy doing Hallucinations and you're pinned... Thats just one example and I'm sure you'll have a counter to it but there are layers... All my opponents and my local meta which is a large and strong player group in the North West of England see the Golden Keshig as a fearful unit. If you're thinking Jetbikes and Outriders are fast terminators, you're playing them wrong and really do laugh at those who think they got 'worse' loosing the +1 T and 2+ / 3+ save. Infact the only unit I felt was 'weak' at the WHW event was T5 (Proteus speeders)
@@taffeh yeah I was tracking the Librarian combo but my theory is, if you need a Librarian to make your unit usable, it's probably not great in the first place 🤔 Look forward to getting some more games in against cav heavy armies though!
@@blackbriargaming5483 as I said that’s one way to neuter one single unit and not a requirement. Although a librarian is likely to be in the same ‘top tier unit meta’ like the venator, Spartan, glaive, lightning of the last edition as shutting down units is so powerful. Your one non-line unit can be ignored where as the rest of your army is dead - the power of the scars is in the movement phase which some legions don’t appreciate as much.
Bruh is this a bait video? Did you just say one of the strongest legions ( raven guard ) is one of the worst??? The only way you could ever come to that conclusion is not actually playing any games.
White scars movement does so much more than an extra inch in the movement phase. And the first turn benefit isn't to alpha strike your army 40k style. It's about thinning down potential threats, preparing for the enemies first turn if they are deep strike assualt and overall getting into position.
This reeks of art of war style 40k nonesense.
At least my Ravens and Angels aren't Trash.
Definitely not!!
Please always be clear on what version of the game your talking about as lots of players do 7th, or horus heresy or 8th edition and so on
Every single video on this channel is Horus Heresy. It's in the title of the video... what are you talking about...?
IH player here. My thoughts on this video:
IF:
You said it yourself: "IF have got everything they need handed to them and don´t even have to work on the table to apply it." Correct. This makes them Mary Sue characters and suddenly the Ultramarines become pretty popular in comparison because the smurfs need at least to put in a bit of work to gain the bonus for ranged combat.
IF were in the past (3rd 40K and only on a single unit led by Lysander) famous for their "Bolter Drill" (buff to ranged combat) which ONLY applied to bolters. What we now see is definitely too much which makes the other legions look bad in comparison. Problematic is also the fact that their special units are very proficient in melee so that they have ultimately no weaknesses.
The annoying phrase "I can do everything you do just better" will be attached to them for their whole run of HH 2.0. Guess you receive this total package when you become one of the poster boys for the entire game. Consoling fact for non-IF players: They don´t need to paint yellow.
SW:
Running & charging with an infantry squad out of reserves for 20 inches sounds bonkers. At least they got humiliated with their helmet upgrade sprue: Furries for the win. -Facepalm-
Because of that they are the least attractive legion from an aesthetic point of view.
IH:
The transition of dreadnoughts to monstrous creatures and the ROW which allows you to take nothing but these mechanical walkers propels the non-smiling cyborgs without issue into top-tier. I am not an advocate for such play-styles and their variants (spam of unit X) because the resulting game will in most cases be a non-fun experience for the person on the other side of the table. Nonetheless I have read already reports of gaming groups "adapting" to the new environment in which they deploy without shame a bunch of dreadnoughts.
So when IF players cram in as many bolt and auto weapons into their list without shame to make your life miserable you can expect to see IH players return the favour of fielding a lot of ancients. Sigh.