Ignition timing a whole lot of magic
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2020
- This video is about setting the timing on a mechanical based distributor engine. I use a classic mini in this video to explain and demo how to do this work. Enjoy
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
From a retired public schools Industrial Arts (shop) teacher, you are an excellent teacher. I come from an automotive background, in that, my Father owned and operated an automotive repair shop for 30 plus years and yes, I ended up a 'motorhead' / hobbyist. I have a fully restored, 64 Volvo 1800S a couple of my Father's cars and others of my own. You sir "know your stuff" and relay your knowledge exceptionally well !
Thank you so much Neil..
Master is the one who knows to share the knowledge, not to keep it for himself. Appreciate your work, sir!
I appreciate that!
Never late to learn how ignition with points and condenser works, great video sir.
You got that right! especially if you like to work on oldtimers... Thanks for the comments
One of the very best tutorials I’ve ever seen. Everything’s very well explained and easy to follow.
Glad it was helpful!
Always a pleasure to see your enthusiasm and share your knowledge Steve and I appreciate the effort that goes into the process of recording/editing to share with the community.Keep up the good work!
I appreciate that!
This was absolutely brilliant. I cannot tell you how much sharing your knowledge is appreciated. Because I'm learning everything on my classic mini, I will watch this video multiple times to figure out all that you have shared... thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the excellent insight - explained so clearly and effectively. It would be a privilege to have you as a father/grandfather - so much 'good old' knowledge to be passed down :) Your videos on carburetors are of very high value to me - my classic corolla is going to purr thanks to your instruction - Cheers from Perth, W.A.
All these videos on the carbs, set up and timing are fabulous and exceptionally well presented. I only have one observation, when testing the advance curve of the ignition the vacuum advance should be left DISCONNECTED, it acts independently of dynamic advance. Vacuum advance is there to increase the advance when the compression ratio in the cylinder drops ( due to the vacuum in the inlet manifold ). Under low load, partial throttle, so partially open carb butterfly valve the compression ratio in the cylinder will drop below 10:1 and pressure in the cylinder will be lower, so the fuel air molecules are not so close together and therefore the flame front travels slower. The vacuum advance takes this into account and will increase the advance beyond that of dynamic advance. This ensures a cleaner burn and a better pick up from part throttle. In racing vacuum advance is almost unnecessary, as the throttle is fully open most of the timer closed.
Your videos are amazing. So clear and easy to follow. I’ve wtched all your classic mini ones in the last 24 hours. Please keep them coming.
Glad you like them!
One of the best videos I have seen on CZcams that covers this subject
Fantastic video Steve. Your camera work and explanation (s) are second to none!
Glad you liked it!
Absolutely awesome tutorial, I started getting into vintage cars and has helped heaps, thanks
Steve you’re fantastic. Have a Classic Mini and need all the help I can get. I have learned so much & can watch over again to make sure I understand! Bravo!
Thanks for the comments
This was the best video on the parts of the ignition system and how the ignition system work. And also how to adjust it to the absolute best setting so you can get the best performance from your engine. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this in such detail. I really enjoy it. I have an MGB that was in pieces when I purchased it and I can already see this is going to be very helpful!😀
This is the best explanation I’ve seen on CZcams and perhaps any other media! Love the videos keep em up 😊
I used to do Crypton tuning years ago, i'm 63 yrs old and still tuning my minis, this video was a refresher course for me, thank you Steve
Thanks for the comments Dean, we are about the same age, young at mind and hart... Will need to check the Crypton tuning
Love your educational, instructional videos. I'm trying to get my old Spitfire with dual SU's tuned up and I am watching as many of your videos over and over before I attempt it.
As many others have said, you're a great teacher: organized and know how to present.
Thanks for the lesson I always wondered what the dwell measurement was, I thought it would be complicated but it was really simple the rest of it was beautifully presented. A big thank you. Steve.
You're very welcome!
That was the best explanation of static and dynamic advance I have ever heard. Thank You.
I can never see me doing this on my car, but now i understand how it all works. A really comprehensive presentation :)
Great to hear! and thanks for the comments
As always, Steve, your instructional expertise makes the complicated simple.
I’m glad you mentioned “Old Rusty.” My postpartum blues will soon vanish.
Right on! Thank you for the comments
I've never seen such clear explanation as you do Mr 3DSshooter, thank you.
Glad to hear it!
Another very well done and informative video. Most people much under 50 years old will not have had much exposure to points ignitions. I probably would have shown the other end of the secondary coil connected to the negative terminal of the coil as electrically, it is and may help people with fault finding a dead coil. Also, as a couple of people have mentioned, you didn't include the condenser in your diagram or explanation. It can be a simple cause of a dead ignition system or the reason your points burn out quickly.
While this type of ignition system is now considered 'old school', low tech and high maintenance compared to modern ignition systems, if you understand them, they are very reliable and easy to fix by the side of the road.
Again, a very excellent tutorial as usual.
thanks for the comments Mark, and a good point... I should have done that...
True enough in theory, but now the spares for these systems are not required or produced in quantity anymore, they are often produced in dubious places to equally dubious standards such that replacing items with new doesn’t necessarily solve a problem or only does so for a short time leading to much frustration.
Thank you for the excellent explanation, the best I've seen so far. Your video answered so many questions that I had and it's given me confidence to sort out the timing on my Morris Minor. Keep up the great work!
I've learnt a lot. Thank you for this lesson.
You are welcome!
Very nice, clear and comprehensive lecture for the fundamental mechanisms of the ignition system. Easy to understand. Thanks for the great video 👍
Great video. I've often heard of advance curves but never really understood it.........until now. Cheers.
Glad you liked it!
After years of connecting the vacuum advance to the ported vacuum, I finally learned that the best connection is to manifold vacuum. This allows the engine to run cooler and better on the street and during lower RPM conditions. When throttle is opened, it decreases and the mechanical advance takes over. Port vacuum was used when the smog control era started in the late 60's in the US. In the old days, manifold vacuum was used. I've made this change to several cars and they always run better. You probably know all this already. Thanks again for your excellent videos, especially on Weber carburetors. I have 3 DCOE 40's on my '72 Datsun 240Z and they need proper set up and care. I've learned a lot from you.
Thank you for the comments, much appreciated
I can only join into the praising of your knoledge, teaching and video skills. Hats off to you, sir.
He is an excellent teacher, takes the mystery out of many things.
Hi Steve
I knew all that but now I really know all that
Great detailed description keep up the excellent work you are doing 👍🇦🇺
Thanks 👍
That pretty much says it all. Great explanation. Regards, Solomon
Thanks for the comments
Wow! If only Haynes explained things that clearly. I thought I knew most of this stuff but your explanations are clear and concise...great work thank you for posting these videos
Glad it was helpful!
amazing prep and editing on this great tutorial...thank you for your efforts
My pleasure!
Excellent video. One of the best explanations I’ve seen on CZcams. Great work!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for the comments
Wow. A long video, but everything of usual interest has been but into a clear, consistent and (still) concise package. Liked!
Much appreciated!
What a great explanation! Thanks for sharing your knowledge in a logical and simplified way.
Glad it was helpful!
I know absolutely nothing about engines. Your way of communicating concepts is excellent. I now have some understanding of the basics. It really helps when talking to my mechanic. I really enjoyed this video. Thanks mate
Thank you very much!
Commenting from Zambia, you have really helped me am doing Automotive Engineering
This was a great video. Very very informative and delivered in a perfect way. Thank you. More videos like this on the technical ways to tune minis please. Youve gained a subscriber.
I’ve know the what and how since I was about 13 years old but now I understand a lot more about the why, especially the importance of points gap. Thanks for an excellent tutorial
Thanks for the comments
@@D3Sshooter you are welcome. I always thought the points gap was about making sure the gap couldn’t be bridged by a spark. I never realised it determined the dwell angle and the power achieved in the HT circuit.
Excellent Video!!! I am in the process of getting 7 of my late 50's and early 60's Alfa Romeos on the road and this information is absolutely Golden!!!! Thanks
You are an excellent teacher, love your videos.
Glad you like them! thanks for the comments
What a beautifully expressed understanding of the ignition process. Thank you. I know a thing or two but...you added to my clarity of understanding and used the correct terminology in a way that I could grasp and improve my knowledge. You have bridged the gaps.Very grateful to you. Best regards. Merf
Glad it was helpful!
I just subscribed. This is the best teaching on ignition tuning I have ever seen. Thanks. BTW, you mentioned Relevant spark plug several times. I looked for them at my auto parts retailer; I saw Champion, NGK, Bosch but no Relevant. OK, just kidding. Great video.
Wish I will have 'anything' together as masterful and calm eventually ... to watch and listen here is inspiring .. from and to any angle . Thankyou 'in advance' :)
At last! I no understanding what a DWELL ANGLE is. Such a good clear explanation. Thank you. I can apply the knowledge to my classic MG Midget!
very helpful and interesting. Thank you, it has increased my understanding a lot.
Thanks much. Haven’t adjusted timing, dwell, etc since I ran a muscle car in the 60’s/70’s and now bought a 75 Porsche 914 that has not been run for 10 years and this was very helpful!
Glad it helped , and 914 wow that is a nice car.... post a video, so we can see it....
Excellent presentation. Thank you for the tutorial. I have an Innocenti 1001 export and your presentations are really helpful.
Glad it was helpful! Innocenti 1001 nice
Great video! Thank you, I really appreciate what you are doing!
My pleasure!
Excellent Theoretical & Practical explanations well done very professional,I have to say that is one of the cleanest Engine Compartments I've ever seen.
I wish I could have seen this video when I was a teenager in Auto Shop in high school. Thanks again for another fine instructional video. Ken
Thanks for watching!
I remember looking video like that few years ago and found nothing. That was amazing timing adjusting video really.
Glad you enjoyed it!
What an amazing tutorial. Thank you.
I must say that we are realy not spoiled with content of this high quality on CZcams, especialy not hidden behind a paywall either, Both the content wich is realy professional and actualy useful as well as the videos them self genuinly hold up the highest quality on Your channel!
Glad you enjoy it! and thank you
What fantastic video I would say the best, most understandable explanation on this subject, many thanks 😊
great video - you sir are a natural teacher !
Thanks for the comments
Fantastic video sir. You are an excellent teacher. Thank you.
Great info and presentation thank you !!
Very well explained 👌 one of my favorite youtuber
Hi thank you for a very interesting video, I know more now than I did before I just have to put this into practice now to see if I can get my engine to fire up after a complete rebuild. I think if I can get the static timing set then there’s a chance it should run as I have a spark at all the plugs and fuel to a professionally refurbished carb.👍👍
Take Care Stay Safe Everyone Regards Dave 🏴
Glad it was helpful! and yes with all the basic settings it wil start
Super video. Best explanation I have seen on advance in ignition systems.
Glad you liked it
Thanks again for this! I'll be setting up my HIF44 this weekend on my 1275 mini. I may have some questions. I've watched all your mini videos a number of times.
TXS for the comments
Great work, another fantastic and detailed tutorial, I have to be a little pedantic and say that, if an engine is set up and running properly, the fuel/air mixture doesn't explode it burns albeit aggressively. If it does explode then the engine is pinking, I remember this from my college days, it was one of my tutors pet hates if anyone said the fuel/air mix' was exploding.
Thanks for the comments
Very underrated channel
Glad you think so! Thanks for the comments
I got to your channel by watching the videos about the webber carburators and it is what ive been looking for a long time in understanding those carbs which i didnt find anywhere else, keep up this very good and informative contents 👍👌
Now that is 'fine tuning'. Very well explained, some of us need refresher tutorials especially when we are surrounded by electronic ignition vehicles. Fine tuning results in very good engine performance, the acceleration, power and economy are great.
Glad to know 'old trusty' parts are on the way and looking forward to seeing her start.
Thanks for the comments, indeed sometimes we forget all the old principles, although they still stand with electronics
@@D3Sshooter One of the ways I fine tune is to clean all ignition primary and secondary circuit connections and renew worn wires. I unscrew and sand down the connectors with emery paper until they shine, from the ignition switch (if its easy to get to) to the coil and distributor. The result is the coil gains more voltage and even this small gain is added to the total which in the secondary gives a much better spark. The engine will then have quick starting, better fuel economy and power.
Usually commercial mechanics don't have the time to do this.
@@mohabatkhanmalak1161 , that is indeed very good practice...and always a requirement to any further adjustments etc.
really well explained video. Let me guess, you must have been a teacher before. You make me think back to my high school days. In fact, I do not think today's high school students get this information.
thanks for the comments, No teacher , but I did develop some new things ( electronics ) in the past and new methods that I had to sell to the management and lead engieers... so over time I have learned what I believe is the best approach to bring something across
Great video mate. Greeting from Australia. Very informative
Sorry for the late reply , as i was away for work. But thanks for the comments.
As always, excellent presentation 😎
Thank you! Cheers!
That was excellent, thank you.
You're very welcome!
Outstanding presentation. Well done.
Thanks for the comments
Thanks for a great video presented in a very easy-to-understand manner. I must, however, take exception to a couple of items that might be misconstrued by your viewers.
1) In the normal combustion process, the air/fuel charge burns rather than explodes. At the moment of ignition, the charge begins to burn, forming a flame front that burns outwardly from the point of ignition across the combustion chamber at a certain burn rate. This burn rate is affected by combustion chamber design, piston dome shape, and AFR along with cylinder charge filling, ambient environment, etc. If during the burn cycle, combustion temperature and/or combustion pressure exceed the fuel's ability to suppress detonation, the otherwise controlled flame front suddenly explodes, creating the "pinging" heard during detonation. As you mentioned, too much spark advance may create unnaturally high combustion temperatures and pressures that result in detonation.
2) Disregarding vacuum advance systems used for emission controls on older cars, the vacuum advance system was developed as a means to improve fuel economy at steady-state cruising speeds. For example, at 60-65mph, the typical car engine is loafing. Combustion temperatures and pressures are quite low, while AFR values are usually lean. The throttle plate (butterfly) is only partially open, creating high engine vacuum, an indication of low engine loading. Under these partial load conditions, the aforementioned flame front becomes quite lazy with its burn rate. If the best efficiency is to be obtained, the ignition timing needs to be advanced several degrees to compensate for the slow-burning charge.
The vacuum advance mounted on the distributor of most older, vintage cars accomplishes this chore quite handily. The unit consists of an enclosed diaphram with two connections; a manifold vacuum (or ported vacuum) hose attached to one end, with the other end connected to the ignition advance plate by a metal rod. As engine vacuum rises in response to partial throttle, the strong vacuum signal pulls the rod via the diaphragm, advancing the ignition timing to adjust for slow fuel burn. Combined with both initial (static) and centrifugal advance, the total advance at this point may well be considerably beyond 40-45 degrees. When more power is needed, the throttle is opened and engine vacuum is correspondingly reduced. The drop in vacuum immediately removes all vacuum advance from the igntion points advance plate and returns the ignition timing to static and centrifugal alone.
side note: It is important to remove the vacuum hose from the diaphragm and place a plug in the hose before setting the timing. This is particularly important if the other end is connected to the intake manifold. With no engine load and high Intake vacuum, the vacuum advance will be engaged regardless of RPM and adversely affect the outcome of the timing procedure.
Once again, all of your videos are top-notch and very much appreciated. After selling my MGB thirty years ago, thanks to you I now know how the carbs work! Well done.
Much appreciated, great write up !
Thank you for your post, very informative and helpful.
Glad it was helpful!
wonderfully explained, thank you
You are welcome!
Very well explained!! god job!!!
this takes me so much knowledge.
so helpful - thank you!
Very well made video, very informative and very useful.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Love your videos.
Thank you!
Thank you great presentation. 👍
You are welcome!
Steve. I just spent a couple of hours watching a bunch of your videos on ignition timing. Absolutely fantastic videos...incredibly informative and I love your detailed and thorough explanations. Too often people on CZcams try to teach but have absolutely no skills at doing it, and don't explain the rationale of why things work the way they do. However, you have no such problem. Quite the contrary....one of the best teachers I have ever come across. Congratulations.
I guess I only really have one question concerning timing. I really don't understand the purpose of vacuum advance and the situations it comes into play.....and how the vacuum advance works in conjunction with the mechanical advance. Does it create advance in addition to whatever mechanical advance is already present, does it cut in at a particular level of vacuum. Does it work when mechanical advance has shortcomings. What are the typical kinds of scenarios when you need extra advance which you don't get through mechanical advance. if you can answer some or all of these questions that would be great or if you can point me to a webpage that really explains it well....many thanks
Thank you for the comments, The principle is very simple. The faster the piston moves up and down ( higher RPM), the earlier the fuel/air mixture needs to be ignited. Just because the burning time of that mixture and its peak explosion power is all ways a fixed time ( for a specific AFR). No matter how fast the pistons move. Thus, if we had no mechanical advance for high RPM's then the fuel would ignite at its static advance ( lets say 4 degrees). This would mean that the piston is way past its TDC and on its way down when the fuel explosion is at his peak, hence we lose power. With the mechanical advance (bob weights in the distributor), the centrifugal force becomes more forceful while RPM's increase. Thus the bob weights fly further out due to that centrifugal force. And by doing so the ignition moment is advanced in such a manner that the ignition of the fuel air mixture is earlier so that the max explosion power of the ignited air/fuel mixture comes just after TDC..
The mechanical advance regulates the time of ignition based on the RPM's. Higher RPM's means more centrifugal force on the bob weights, means more advance.
Now lets talk vacuum advance, assume the engine is running at a steady 3000 RPM ,lets say cruising along the highway. The bob weights do their job as explained but are at a steady advance. Now we want to accelerate or clime a hill, in both cases the engine has more load and we depress the throttle. This causes a higher vacuum in the intake manifold ( more engine load means more vacuum). Meaning that more fuel is needed and sucked into the engine ( Low Air /fuel ration - AFR). Now the mixture is far more rich ( lets say AFR 11/1) versus cruising (lets say AFR14/1) as the acceleration pump will have injected additional fuel and the throttle is far more open. This means that the air fuel mixture is now having less oxygen and more fuel and the burning process is slower. The result is that the maximum power of the burning is past TDC . By using a vacuum advance ( vacuum from the intake manifold to the distributor), the ignition moment is further advanced in order to deal with the new mixture burning time. thus an earlier ignition. Once we have accelerated or are over the hill, the vacuum decreases in the intake manifold ( less load on the engine) and as a consequence the AFR goes back to normal (14/1). At the same time the vacuum advance on the distributor drops and we are back to the normal bob weight advance...
In a nuttshell:
-Static advance is a low RPM ignition time adjustment as the bob weights ave no effect
- Dynamic advance is a mid to high RPM ignition time adjustment provided by the bob weights
-Vacuum advance provides more temporarily advance when the engine is under load
I hope that this helps
@@D3Sshooter Thanks so much for a clear explanation.
Really found this interesting , great video. Cheers
Thank you
Actually ignition happens a few degrees before TDC, increasing with engine speed.
Great explanation again!
Thanks for the info!
It all makes sense when it is well explained !
Thanks for the comments
An excellent explanation many thanks😊❤it
Really appreciate your vidéos. Keep going the good work.
Glad you like them!
I really like what you do and how you teach it. This is directly applied on my car :)
Very helpful video, thanks mate :)
Glad it helped
Clear instructions , thank you for sharing
My pleasure
Great video!
thanks for the comments
Thank you so much. I learned so much. please keep it up.
Thanks for the comments
Nice explanation!
Thanks for the comments
Thank you! Great video!!!
Glad you liked it!
Well, i have learn something watching this video :)
Thank you & greetings,, Kitty.
Our pleasure!
amazing lecture
I find the biggest problem of getting old and needing glasses is, when working on a car, if I need to turn my head to an angle to see something my glasses move and everything goes blurry. Even thought I have done this job, setting points and timing many times I still learned something today. I always thought the points sent a charge through the primary circuit when they closed which induced a charge in the secondary coil which then went to the dizzy. What you described is the exact opposite being that when the circuit to the primary is broken the charge is induced in the secondary.
Thanks for the comments Stephen, tell me about it. yes, its the change in current flow that induces induction. have a look on your car and see what happens, the spark happens when the points open.
@@D3Sshooter Hmmm everything I have is electronic ignition now. Which in a way is worse because it can be so hard to figure out what is wrong sometimes.
Excellent presentation
Good video well explained
Vacuum advance is for small throttle openings where engine doesn't ping easily. Cruising and deceleration. Idea is that when you give it throttle it would ping but then the vacuum goes down with high throttle and it drops to normal advance.
Thanks for the comments, good point... and yes it can be slightly be seen on the dials
Some cars also use vacuum instead of, or as well as, centrifugal to give advance based on revs. For that the vacuum is taken from the venturi rather than from the manifold side of the carb.
When cruising with the throttle partly open the fuel mix is very lean which takes longer to combust, so the vacuums rises pulling the disturber plate to 40° advanced, hence the ignition still happens at 34° and that is why the motor does not ping.
Excellent video
TXS for the comments