Gerber Principle Review vs Mora Garberg : Steel Fails Grind
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2023
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I put a piece of 1” bicycle inner tube over the handle of the garberg. It wasn’t easy, but it’s a completely different, better feel. Highly recommended.
That's a great idea & tip. Cheers
I always wanted the Kansbol handle on the Garberg.
Use rubbing alcohol. Or line the inner tube with zip ties and remove them after its in position.
I did exactly the same. 700C tube is tight, but that’s a good thing!
I also did something similar! I just used Ranger Bands that I had (from a pack of various sizes). Bicycle tubing is essentially the same, but at least you can cut to the length you need.
Pretty clear microbevel on that blade too so it should definitely be able to hold up. I had my eye on a Principle since they sell them at a local department store. No longer. Thanks Pete.
Alright, a Cedric & Ada, no nonsense, comparison review to start my Friday. Thanks Pete !
Gerber came out with a similar design called the Terracraft. It’s in S30V and is literally a slightly larger version of this knife. You can also customize it. Gerbers s30v is also heat treated where benchmade gets their heat treatment done from my understanding, so there’s that
boy does that seem like a sweet knife, but it definitely costs like one. At the price point, there's a LOT of other options, so it's a hard place to compete. I know I'd trust the more expensive gerbers over their budget schlock, though.
S30V doesn't do well in a Scandi grind though. Spyderco came out with one of their Ethnic series awhile back based on a pukko with S30V and a scandi grind with a micro bevel, and the customers who removed the micro-bevel had trouble because the super thin edge is unstable for the relatively large vanadium carbides in that steel. CPM-154, VG-10, et al. are more reliant on elements that form smaller carbides thereby less prone to these issues with acute grinds found on scandis.
@@colbunkmust the terracraft has a saber grind. :)
@@hunterglaspell well, that would be a better choice for S30V for sure.
The 420HC blade is clearly softer than the 14C28N. I initially thought that Gerber heat treats 420HC softer because the steel is brittle. However, Larrin Thomas gives both steels a 9/10 in toughness, so if this is accurate there is no need for such a soft heat treatment. I don't understand why US knives are always so soft compared to European knives.
My Principle came with a small nylon strip with Velcro that you can thread through the sheath and use as an additional level of retention. Zero worries about the knife inadvertently coming out when that is in use.
Thanks for resharpening and trying it again. Love your work Pete.
The problem with rolling is not the 420HC, it's the hardness of the heat treatment. Gerbers are notoriously inconsistent and can range between 55 and 59. If that was a 55-56, it will roll if you look at it too hard. There is no reason that any knife should be tempered under 59-60 and a variance of more than 1 point is unacceptable, especially at this price point. It really is a shame because I also love the design of this knife and it's siblings. It's almost perfect in design but sabotaged by the heat treatment. Were it 14C28N at 60, it'd be a home run.
Are you fucking high
Its a shame, Gerber back in the day was pretty innovative in the knife game....then they went off the deep end of suck and everyone passed them by in the last 20 years. In the last few years you can see their genuine attempts to leave the suck behind....but they just can't get out of their own way.
The only really good Gerber from way back is the Gerber Scout multi tool. It's genuinely one of the best tool sets on a basic multi tool and the pliers remain the best out there as they genuinely will cut stainless brake cable and the Fiskars scissors are quality. Under rated and better than some cheaper LMTs. I think it's the shared Fiskars/Sandvik DNA which has kept it from going the same way as the rest of the range. The additional driver set for it is so good I use them in my cordless drill driver all the time and they still haven't worn out after 15+ years of use.
The first knife that almost took my finger off was a Gerber EZ Out. The backlock on those were light detent at best
@spitchgrizwald6198 I am a "working guy" I guess you could say, I'm always busy with tasks that would employ the use of a multi tool but I just can't seem to find one I wanna keep in my pocket. That Milwaukee Fastback utility knife with the screwdriver and a pair of Knipex mini pliers is the setup I seem to like the most. Not that you asked lol
Never had a Gerber that didn’t disappoint…
Gerber’s specialty is underperforming mystery-steel knives. Somehow they Forrest Gump’ed their way into notably strong sharpened crowbars.
Perhaps they should consider making wedged door stops.
I guess I should say something positive too.
Good on you Pete for making all these videos. Your content is genuinely appreciated.
Hey Pete, great review as always. From my understanding, Gerber doesn't perform the greatest heat treatment on their knives also so that would be a huge factor to its poor performance and edge rolling as well. Keep up the great work.
Bro, u gotta tell me how you scramble those eggs! I saw that sandwich and im not even thinking about the knives😅 THANKS, GREAT REVIEW AS ALWAYS👍
Whats odd is that Gerber are linked to Fiskars who are linked to Sandvik who supply Mora. Their steel should be great but somehow they keep going low rent.
Yay, Friday and you graced me with yet one more video!! 😊
I liked the discussion about the design considerations between the two knifes. The Gerber handle looks really cool!
Knives
@@blueswan2175 two cutty bois
Use it and then compare to a Companion or Marttiini.
Great illustration of how toughness doesn't directly translate to edge stability.
Jup, people dont realize what they actually want is strenght...
But… what are your thoughts on Huusk?
TBD. He’s only received counterfeit ones to date
Marttiini also makes some puukkos in 420-grade steel (european X46CR13, around 53.5-55HRC according to their website), scandi grind of course. So it seems to work for them.
I own some. They do work and not deform.
Chuck a bin at that gerber Pete. Thanks for the video:)
'Maybe my wood's just too hard and the knife couldn't handle it'. 🤣
Great review mate!
On my couple Bark Rivers that I kayak with, I put a shock cord lanyard in the lanyard hole and don't use it for my wrist but instead pull it over the tip of the sheath sort of like a shock cord on a ferro rod works on a sheath to keep in secure in the sheath.
Great comparison! Thank you. I own quite a few knives, fixed, folders from a lot of different brands. The one brand I don’t own and probably never will is Gerber!
Don't give up on 420HC until you've tried it on a Buck Knife. I'd suggest the 684 or 685 depending on your size preference.
Hahaha - I love the Willy Wagtail that's been singing away in the background of a few of your videos lately mate.
My Gerber principle sheath came with a Velcro strap that eliminates the rattle.I update: I tested the Principle on a variety of Indiana hardwoods and blade edge slightly deformed on oak. I did the same test with Cold Steel Finn Hawk 4116, Mora Companion stainless 12C27 and C100 carbon, Marttiini Timber Jack 1075? carbon, Marttiini Utility Hunter stainless 420, BPS BS3 1066 carbon and none deformed. All of these cost a lot less than the Gerber.
I have a load of old Gerbers that are great 👍 I’m from Oregon and have always hoped they’d improve their Portland manufacturing. Budget knives are not easy to make in the USA.
Almost a bit sad, really. They have so much potential! PS I'm really digging the microscope shots!
same I'm having a great time with the scope! thanks for watchin'
I’m thinking about getting the Gerber principal, then putting a high saber grind on it
Like the reviews. Can you do a test of the Böker Bronco in 3V (if you can get your hands on one for a reasonable price)?
Hopefully they upped the hrc
I wonder how much the heat treatment contributed to the edge rolling like it did on the Gerber. 420hc is a fine steel with Bucks heat treat, just ask Uncle Randy.
Hello Pete. Thanks a lot for this interesting video! I wrote you a private message on instagram... Greetings from Switzerland
Glad to see you are watching Pete, Felix! I watch you both!!!
Are we sure Pete
Love this channel 😊
Thanks!
I did a lot of standard wood/fire prep with a buck woodsman, which uses their 420hc, and it held up amazingly well. I have a feel that it's like you say, the combo of steel type and grind isn't ideal. I'll take a nice carbon steel scandi for a budget option even though it takes a little extra maintenance because it's got the right properties.
Buck's heat treatment of 420HC is well regarded. Gerber's not so much.
@@Greg_Chock 100% agree. Any of their lower level stuff really isn't very good. Budget CRKT and Kershaw have stepped up a lot in design and steels and budget Gerber somehow gets worse.
Nice review. Is Mora v Gerber a thing? Yesterday I watched a Mora Kansbol v Gerber Spine review. That comes after any number of Garberg vs Strongarm vs LMF videos out there, often with something from Essee thrown in.
Not many good budget knives out there so I guess Mora is used as the benchmark for comparing other ones to, not specifically a 'vs Gerber' thing they just happen to go after the same market / price segment.
Hi there ! Very interesting vid, cheers !
Agreed that the gerber’s sheath is way too rattly. Had to get a custom kydex for mine
I've written off almost all knives that come with hollow pins, it's a lousy way to keep scales attached to a tang. Don't do anything more than cutting and slicing or the scales tend to come loose. So I didn't even consider getting this one even though it looks nice enough.
The microscope views are a fun nod to the legendary Dr. Wako. Good times.
Could you get the hardness tested? I have a feeling that it is soft, which is why it can't support that thin apex.
I'd love to see them make this same knife in a better steel. Something like a S30v, or even better, 3v.
I love mine, but I truly don't use it much. When it comes out, it's usually for a couple tent pegs.
At least it sharpens super easily.
Terracraft
Thanks for your work!
And oh my dog, would that knife benefit from an upgrade to Larrin’s favourite CPM-154...
Thanks
quite interesting. i've got no doubts about the impressive overall toughness of 420HC, but i haven't got to grips with the "edge stability" concept, which seems to be the differentiating thing here. i don't have a good understanding of that yet.
(edit: watched the epilogue. suggests some screwiness with gerber's materials as opposed to more general metallurgical principles)
Good vid Pete, thanks. Foregone conclusion really. A knife is a tool, something we really shouldn't spend massive amounts of time thinking about. Of course the Garberg is the better knife, it's a Mora knife !. Swedish, made by an honest company with a long heritage who's heat treatment is bang on. 14C28N, see Larrin Thomas on this. Garberg's all you need, use it and forget about it, it's a tool, Gerber's a non starter. 14C28N incidentally is a push cutting steel, it's high strength gives extremely good edge stability, which is just what's needed for the varying side loads on the edge encountered in bushcrafting conditions. The following is probably known already, but the Scandi grinds in effect is a splitter, working in conjunction with a minimal micro bevel at say 30-35° to assist its passage through the material. The edge cuts, the primary Scandi splits and 'allows' the edge further progress. The zero Scandi is impractical, 14C28N at say 57HRC and 20°'ish doesn't work in bushcraft, far too fragile. The edge incidentally should be presented to the workpiece perpendicularly to actually use the selected edge angle (mine 30-35°), slant, and less than this is presented, negating the purpose of the selected edge angle. The slice is 'zero' edge angle, which really is where more 'advanced' steels - powder steels come to the fore. The knife is a tool we, as said, shouldn't really think too much about, Mora know this, and give us what we really need.
AL.
I'm no Gerber fanboy but I'm wondering if any other 420hc Gerbgers, when sharpened so accutely, roll over the same way or if this was a batch/manufacturing process issue. Also, a lot of money for 420hc even if it does look great.
Yup, on oak.
@@thomasmaloney843 What do you mean?
Damn, that edge looked miserable! Morakniv is hard to beat, as long as it isn't wood handled!
I wonder if you apply the same Gerber fine edge principle to the Strongarm, then it might be a mistake to reprofile the edge geometry to 20 degrees or less. I just bought one and have done nothing to the edge yet but I think I might just leave it be.
I have tested both, and you are better off with 25 degrees, in my opinion. It will go dull fast as heck otherwise. My tests were on a Prodigy but same steel
Your right a leather sheath, but in cross draw configuration as small as it is, and a better steel this is the most exciting gerber in the last decade or two? Based on some of the discontinued ones
So it´s a bit sad that Mora goes the ”noname”-Steel lane, although I guess they still use 14C28n on the Garberg(?). Regarding the rattle of the sheath on the Gerber, at least I got a fastening loop with my sheath, it doesn’t eliminate the rattle, but at least suppress it a bit. Anyway, thanks for a great video!
The Mora website lists the Garberg steel as "recycled steel".
@@Pharto_Stinkus Yes, but before they started doing this silly shit, they listed the actual steel used. I hope that they still use the higher grade 14C and not 12cC27n though.
@@HeavyMetalHiking you missed the point. They're not using pure 14 or 12 or 13 anymore. They are using a recycled mix for all their knives
@@Pharto_Stinkus At least with the New Ash Wood handles-series, the recycled Steel used, according to Morakniv themselves, is 12C27N.
I like the Garberg with red handle
It seems like Gerber may have made a mistake in heat treating that knife. Now I’m curious; are all of them that bad, and if so how did Gerber not see this coming?
Gerber doesn’t heat treat in house, nor do most companies. In fact I think they get their 420hc treated at the same place as any other US company that uses the steel (leatherman may also do the same).
Mine was good. Enough so I nought 2:39 a second one. Its good as well.
Tried to edit. Bought.
NEVER buy a Gerber, terrible beaters and not showy offy
@@velvetine74 their American line has some nice options. You should look into them.
Personally, my history since 1974 with Gerber - ends with the Fiskars buyout. Cute - clever - disposable - crap. I still have cherished pre-fiskars steel that remains amazing (for that steel era) to this day.
The bird in the background pissed me off I thought it was outside my house mate
I looked up the Gerber. In the U.S. it's a $67 knife. That makes more sense.
150AUD (96.31USD) for a 420HC knife is too much.
These days, for that price, one should expect a little better steel.
For example, $100 can sometimes get you a U.S. made Buck in S30V.
154CM was suggested in the video. I was thinking D2 with a proper heat treat that retains a hardness of 60 Rc or higher should replace 420HC across the board.
Good informative video...thanks.
Another gas station mora.. just what i needed
It sucks you had to pay 150 bucks for the Gerber. They are only 40 bucks in the states.
I got my Garberg with the lovely leather sheath from Massdrop years ago. That would have been true 14C28, right? Later I got a Kansbol just to get the more utilitarian sheath. I also have a very similar Gerber that came in a set with the pack hatchet and spork. It was not named but looked the same and I believe was 420. I replaced the hatchet with the much better Fiskar X7 which is much better. The knife never impressed me, but does look good! It has a good plastic sheath with a long metal clip designed for a backpack waist belt. THAT is a good idea.
But now they seem to be using Mystery Metal. Does a new Garberg say that?
Yeah this is the primary issue with Gerber. They have some really nice designs, like their design department is doing great work. But then they send it over to the materials department, and those guys seem to take a lot of vacations or else they drink on the job pretty heavily lol. They don't think about application at all, they just go "Well if it's American and in this price range, then we'll use 420HC. If it's Chinese made, we'll use 7Cr17MoV ("440A") no matter what the design is. If they want an upgrade we'll give 'em China mystery D2 on like two models...people still like D2 right? Great!"
These guys seem to have the easiest job in the world and somehow they never get fired. 😂
I read your bushcraft article in Knives Illustrated, very good read. What happened to your D*ckhead Survival series?
Hiya Pete, been a fan of your channel for ages, since before I had much of a knife collection at all really. I tend to trust your opinions on knife stuff. Based on my experience with (mainly) Nitro-V, and I guess by extension 14c28n, and hypothically AEB-L (if I had a knife with that) I've kinda been starting to prioritise toughness and fine grain structure in a knife over wear resistance/edge retention. For me as someone who has no pocket knives over £100 and quite limited experience with steels, idk for me I'd rather my knife can get a really fine, sharp edge, I'm less bothered about how often I have to strop/sharpen them. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this topic, if you happened to have read this longwinded comment and not been put off by all the unneccesary parenthesis. I think for strictly budget knife people like myself there's always going to be a trade off, and idk I always thought of toughness as the category that mattered for my bushcraft knives but wasn't so relevant to my EDC folders, now I pretty much think the opposite. Sorry for leaving such an essay of a comment haha, but I'd like to hear your take on this!
The steel a knife is made from is much less important than the overall design assuming it's well heat treated
Buck seems to be the only one that can do 420HC correctly, but even then it tends to be kind of on the brittle side. It makes decent skinning and hunting type knives when you're going to cut meat and fat and skin but it's just too damn brittle for anything tough like wood. Gerber would have been better off with 1095 If they just had to use a cheap high carbon steel.
But is it better than the Huusk?
Doubtful.
So the Gerber principle is 420HC? Thought it was S30V
the terracraft is s30v and saber ground, and a bit more &&
Like you said. Really cool looking knife, but why 420HC? There are so many good affordable steels out there 12/27, 440C, 14/28. Why 420HC? That’s what Buck uses. I have never liked sharpening Buck knives. 🔪🎸 Thanks
lock v friction fit. tape the inside.
Micro 18° bevel maybe 🤔
Bummer...My prodigy with a 19° vgrindVex mutant works excellent.
0° scandis are finicky...BUT my Enzo elver 0° is amazing and its 12C27n,.
Im guessing Gerbers heat treat is to soft on these blades . A window of 55hrc to 59 is just too much imho . Cudeman does the same thing woth their HRC NUMBERS on their bushcraft blades also.
I think Gerber should use a proprietary heattreat specific to that blade. Just like Buck does with their 420 USA stuff.
I want a terracraft so bad! Good thing I didn't settle for the principle😔
I often see companies make scandi ground knives out of steels that just aren’t up to it like N690 and after any amount of typical use just carving slightly harder wood you get chips and rolls and it’s terrible
A real bummer
Carbon steels like VG10 are the minimum standard for a Scandi or stainless like 154CM. I wouldn't even use 440c on a Scandi, but then I don't actually own a Scandi and actually have no practical idea what I'm talking about, lol. I'll stick to my hollow grinds and flat grinds 90% of the time, ideally in S35v, CTS XHP, M390 or 20CV just for the overpriced reassurances.
Niomax would do well on a scandi. But if you don't want a powdered steel, the AEB-L, Niotro V, 14c28,, Niomax family seems to be the best choice for stainless. Kershaw imports 14c28n. Gerber can, too. Otherwise something like 80crv2 makes more sense. I bet s35 is getting cheaper; maybe we'lll see that replace 420hc ;)
Heat sheath and squeeze till cool
No rattle
seems like the only way for them to save face, is to recall them all, and send them back with CruWear or better... ;)
This probably has less to do with the steel type and more to do with the hardness of the steel. the edge wavyness indicates a lack of strength and judging by the way gerber heat treats their strongarm, im assuming they used the same protocol for this knife too. 420HC can get to a high enough hardness for a scandi (I believe buck's 420hc is 59hrc) but its clear this one is too soft.
For your next review can you please test an orange vs an apple?
thanks
My principal buckeled on its 3rd outing I was doing small batoning ,and where the blade bends up to meet the tip ..3 big buckles appeared,thats a red 🚩 fail .
Cost me £95 that converts to $186 Australian dollars..another 20 quid and you get the benchmade puukko .
420 hc is basically 1095 with chromium added. Tons of "scandi" knives are made in 1095 and hold their edges just gine.
Garberg has been sub $70 USD on Amazon for a long time. Roughly $110 Aussie dollary doos.
I smell cinnamon rolls
Baffling that Gerber wouldn't go with something tough like AEB-L for a wood/utility knife like this, where outright edge retention doesn't matter as much as edge stability and stainlessness. AEB-L tolerates thin edges well, can be made absolutely screaming sharp, and it's pretty cheap. Just a bizarre product decision to go with poorly heat treated 420HC when there are so many good options available at similar prices.
The Garberg uses 14c28n from Sandvik
No edge stability be like that.
I really wish Gerber would stop shooting themselves in the foot. They've put out some really attractive offerings the last couple of years but their fail rate when it comes to quality just keeps me away every time. The Principle looks like it would otherwise be a phenomenal knife and a huge contender for a general purpose outdoors knife but whatever went wrong with the steel (grind or heat treat) just ruins it. I wonder if giving it a slight convex might fix that?
I’d put a convex on the gerber probably, and try again
Give a plain old Mora Classic any day. Just have to remove that stupid red paint lol
Pretty sure the Gerber sells for around 60$ at Meynards.. nice review though
Well, Gerber is consistent. Like some vehicles, might look good but gonna let you
down.
Indeed. Gerber is very consistent. Lol
😮👍
I don't know the price of steels, but what would it cost to use a better steel, just a bit better, not Magnacut? I'd like to support US workers, but.......
Gerbercrap I’ve never had any luck with gerber or any of the 400 series steels it’s just not good steel for a knife for a pot and pan yep it’s ok just not knives
420 HC… I dont gave a problem with it directly, but once the price reaches 50 or max 60 USD I just expect something else, sorry
What do you expect, it's a Gerber.
Here in the states Gerber really has a poor reputation, they produce a lot of poorly thought out & badly executed
products.
I wasn’t aware they were calling the steel in the Garberg recycled. That’s good to know. Thank you. Then that proves the point that I made in my video about the “trash series“ and the mystery steel conundrum. As always you were spot on, and I really love your delivery! Keep up the awesome work! And thank you for saving me the angst and disappointment and money from buying this knife.
Are you confusing the Gerber and the Garberg?
Nothing wrong with the Garberg steel. It IS a budget steel, but for the price I see no issues with it.
The ash series though is just a gimmick, at that price a lot better stuff is available.
Its called recycled because the steel they buy from Sandvik is recycled. Morakniv themselves recycle their leftovers, but it’s not necessarily shipped back to Sandvik as the recycling is sourced/handled by a third party.
But seeing that Knife Capital and Steel City, Mora and Sandviken is in the same region it’s a good guess that a lot of their own scrap comes back in the shape of steel sheets from Sandvik.
I don’t there’s any changes in composition, but rather the fact that in Scandinavia the environmental factor is bigger than “bragging” about their 12C/14C steels. So my guess is all their stainless (12C/14C) knifes will be marked recycled from now on.
If the steel Sandvik is is recycling has relatively small quantities of impurities like sulphur and phosphorus, and the melt is under 13.5% Cr, 0.6% C, 0.4% Si, 0.4% Mn, it can be made equivalent to 14C28N. Chemical analysis of melts is a normal part of all steel alloying, and many of the blade steels we buy start out as steel scrap.
Mora is generally good with reporting on things like the edge angles they use. It would be nice if they said, "with our recycled blade steels, we target an equivalent to Sandvik 12C27C (or Sandvik 14C28N). Here's a typical chemical analysis".
at least it looks cool?
The first hint should have been.... gerber
Thanks for testing. Why don't you donate it to Joe X, to discover its full potential.
That's a seriously disappointing edge, Pete. As you say, nice knife, shame about the steel.