Nice build of LTO batteries for your battery bank. I built my solar battery bank using 40 Toshiba LTO SCiB batteries that are giving me 44kW @ 1.1kW per battery. I used LTO batteries because I couldn't keep lithium batteries above freezing temperatures in the winter months and destroyed my lifepro4 batteries from charging below freezing temperatures. I also live above 46degrees North of the Equator, so I have low sun hours. The high C rate allows me to get a full charge easily on clear days and some overcast days. The nicest part is that you can get over 20,000 charging cycles from them, way past my lifetime.
About time someone did a good video on these LTO batteries, albeit it is too short. Looking forward to your next video in the series showing the bms and how to implement it. What is the window for overall voltage for a 48v inverter? David.
Hi there, great design. In order to use the full capacity of the battery bank, you have to be able to charge all the cells to the same voltage and discharge all the cells to the same DOD voltage. Are you acheiving this with your cells? if so, how?
Are you letting the weight of the cells rest on the posts? I mean is it appropriate to suspend the cells in this manner? It lools like it could compromise pretty easily. I was thinking the weight of each cell should be on the body of the cell...not the post. As I am new to this I could be wrong.
Just a bit of a update link on a BMS just to suit a 66160 LTO that is in early development thanks to Stuart Pittaway community.openenergymonitor.org/t/diybms-for-lithium-titanate-battery-cells-lto/16285/11
I dont see how a BMS can balance individual cells when they are installed. I'm new to this tech, but it looks like you're building the same 22S config I need for my 48v Inverter.
The BMS will not balance each cell but each group of 3 cells in this case. Each cell in the group will have the same voltage as they are in parallel and the BMS will balance voltages between each group of cells. This is pretty normal practice.
I think they need to be making these batteries in THICK rolls, like prismatic rolls but bigger. 5kwh because they are useful, safe, cheaper and modular. It would be done during the rolling process. They can wire the cells in series, when the polarity of the battery junction film is flipped, and incidentally connected. It is like what they are doing with thin film solar panels, running 1v cells with 200 cells making 200v panels. Make a 48v battery and connect the cells in series to get the 48v, and make it easy with big rolls, and make it easy with big surface area. A good, useful, high capacity. Really, the costs are lowered across the board because of less packaging demands, less individual testing, less connectors, less wiring. less installation considerations. probably NO bms. Lfp works ok on some cells without a bms. They should do this, or at least make 500ah individual cells more available These last 50 years, reliability would even increase because connecting them in siereis in the factory makes more reliable repeatable battereis. The films would have to be either, measured, cut, flipped, and joined, or made in long sheets with varying polarities. I think cut, flip and join method would work simply with a jig and a bit of kapton tape. It would all have to be high tension, but tensioners can do it, and tape can join these films together reliably. It just has to make contact with the + remaining, connecting to the - of the ongoing loop. series over and over, for a 48v battery at least. Maybe even higher voltage, but dc voltage is a beast at high voltage. Would accept 48v as a universal standard, or division.
Some are stable, some are not. bms's can fail too. I would like inherent balancing in the construction of the cells. This is done with solar panels, the technical considerations are very similar. Sodium ion has not been proven in reliable battery packs, probably for some reason we will never know. they might even be too good. But, anyways. I like lto too, i think all ev's should have standard sized and connector and mounting battery packs, where the batteries can be used for 20 years, upcycled and used another 20 years and another 20 years. Its actually alot safer, having these things completely compatible, than having abunch of people, some or most idiots messing around with them trying this and that. Really, it should be inherently useful and straightforward from the factory. I think this could be done too if the cells were rectangular rolled prismatic construction, and a good, honest capacity of 500ah. Thats like 1kwh per module which is about the right sizing for useful systems. We could all do house solar and storage, with just 1 outside module, batteries and converter, and 4ft away panel arrays. Panels too could be better at 500w each for starters, and thin film flexible for a low cost. low environmental low materials cost.The world gets so fetched up in moving marginally useleess shit around. inherent value and utilization should be more condensed. @@sjdtmv
From what I can gather, you look at the ranges of voltages from your inverter for full charge and cut off. For example: Sol-ark supports 43V to 63V LTO Voltages based on Series wiring: 1.5v discharge cut off: Series 20 21 22 23 24 Cut off 30 31.5 33 34.5 36 2.8v charge voltage: Series 20 21 22 23 24 Charge 56 58.8 61.6 64.4 67.2 22S would only discharge down to 43vdc (min on the Sol-ark) and completly charge up to 61.6vdc (max based on 2.8v cell).
Gday Ross, Are these Lithium titanate batteries much faster to charge than lithium phosphate ? Can you give me a charge time example in relation to this 6kwh system. Cheers Regards Phil
Hi Phil, I have a Victron 150/70 clone solar controller with 4.2kw of solar panels feeding the LTO bank, this solar controller will only feed 70amps to the battery bank which is less then 1C charge, if I was to try to obtain a 10C change I would need 1200amp charge and that would involve 18 x 150/70 solar controllers and approximately 75kw of solar panels or approximately 300 solar panels the cost to do this test would be in the 10s of thousands of dollars, I gone the LTO way because of it's life span and temperature range usage.
Thanks Ross, Was considering titanate due to the lack of solar I will have in the winter months due to my shading, so I will need to run a genny every few days in winter to charge batteries. Thought the titanate chemistry might charge quicker from the genny relative to phosphate ? I’m in south Tassie. Very short days in winter combined with shading. Summer no problem.....
I don't understand why 66 expensive batteries are needed, if exactly the same power of 6kw (but one microsecond) can be obtained with only one small AAA type battery. Were you not taught at school what is power and what is the unit of energy?
@@sjdtmv How do you wire this? Does it monitor individual cells or just each 22s series? If the series, what happens when you get one of the batteries in the series in an over charged or under charged state? Sorry I'm new to BMS's.
LA FIJACION con bulones tuercas ES MUY RIGIDA , DURA , CUANDO SE CALIENTEN LAS BATERIAS , LA DILATACION HARA QUE SE ROMPAN POR DENTRO , DEBERIAN TENER UNA EXPANCION , DE 4 MM PARA TOLERAR DILATACIONES , HACIENDO LAS CONEXIONES CON CABLE CHATO FLEXIBLE DE 3 CM X 1 CM DE ESPESOR , USADOS EN CONEXIONES DE LLAVES DE GRAN AMPERAJE DE TRANSFORMADORES
Nice build of LTO batteries for your battery bank. I built my solar battery bank using 40 Toshiba LTO SCiB batteries that are giving me 44kW @ 1.1kW per battery. I used LTO batteries because I couldn't keep lithium batteries above freezing temperatures in the winter months and destroyed my lifepro4 batteries from charging below freezing temperatures. I also live above 46degrees North of the Equator, so I have low sun hours. The high C rate allows me to get a full charge easily on clear days and some overcast days. The nicest part is that you can get over 20,000 charging cycles from them, way past my lifetime.
@fisherus Hi man, how is it performing after 1 year of "stress testing" the LTO batteries?
What I like about this build is that it looks very professional. I hope that when the bms is installed it is just as neat.
David.
Judging by the fact that the unit of power (kW) is used instead of the unit of energy, the author has relatively little knowledge of physics
Great looking build
Cheers
looks good
About time someone did a good video on these LTO batteries, albeit it is too short. Looking forward to your next video in the series showing the bms and how to implement it.
What is the window for overall voltage for a 48v inverter?
David.
Beautiful
Hi there, great design. In order to use the full capacity of the battery bank, you have to be able to charge all the cells to the same voltage and discharge all the cells to the same DOD voltage. Are you acheiving this with your cells? if so, how?
Are you letting the weight of the cells rest on the posts?
I mean is it appropriate to suspend the cells in this manner?
It lools like it could compromise pretty easily.
I was thinking the weight of each cell should be on the body of the cell...not the post.
As I am new to this I could be wrong.
Just a bit of a update link on a BMS just to suit a 66160 LTO that is in early development thanks to Stuart Pittaway community.openenergymonitor.org/t/diybms-for-lithium-titanate-battery-cells-lto/16285/11
I dont see how a BMS can balance individual cells when they are installed. I'm new to this tech, but it looks like you're building the same 22S config I need for my 48v Inverter.
The BMS will not balance each cell but each group of 3 cells in this case. Each cell in the group will have the same voltage as they are in parallel and the BMS will balance voltages between each group of cells. This is pretty normal practice.
I think they need to be making these batteries in THICK rolls, like prismatic rolls but bigger. 5kwh because they are useful, safe, cheaper and modular. It would be done during the rolling process. They can wire the cells in series, when the polarity of the battery junction film is flipped, and incidentally connected. It is like what they are doing with thin film solar panels, running 1v cells with 200 cells making 200v panels.
Make a 48v battery and connect the cells in series to get the 48v, and make it easy with big rolls, and make it easy with big surface area. A good, useful, high capacity.
Really, the costs are lowered across the board because of less packaging demands, less individual testing, less connectors, less wiring. less installation considerations. probably NO bms. Lfp works ok on some cells without a bms.
They should do this, or at least make 500ah individual cells more available
These last 50 years, reliability would even increase because connecting them in siereis in the factory makes more reliable repeatable battereis. The films would have to be either, measured, cut, flipped, and joined, or made in long sheets with varying polarities. I think cut, flip and join method would work simply with a jig and a bit of kapton tape. It would all have to be high tension, but tensioners can do it, and tape can join these films together reliably. It just has to make contact with the + remaining, connecting to the - of the ongoing loop. series over and over, for a 48v battery at least. Maybe even higher voltage, but dc voltage is a beast at high voltage. Would accept 48v as a universal standard, or division.
I think that Sodium Ion cells could change the market and game in both LTO and Lifepo4, I would never run a battery pack without a Bluetooth BMS
Some are stable, some are not. bms's can fail too. I would like inherent balancing in the construction of the cells. This is done with solar panels, the technical considerations are very similar. Sodium ion has not been proven in reliable battery packs, probably for some reason we will never know. they might even be too good. But, anyways. I like lto too, i think all ev's should have standard sized and connector and mounting battery packs, where the batteries can be used for 20 years, upcycled and used another 20 years and another 20 years.
Its actually alot safer, having these things completely compatible, than having abunch of people, some or most idiots messing around with them trying this and that.
Really, it should be inherently useful and straightforward from the factory.
I think this could be done too if the cells were rectangular rolled prismatic construction, and a good, honest capacity of 500ah. Thats like 1kwh per module which is about the right sizing for useful systems.
We could all do house solar and storage, with just 1 outside module, batteries and converter, and 4ft away panel arrays. Panels too could be better at 500w each for starters, and thin film flexible for a low cost. low environmental low materials cost.The world gets so fetched up in moving marginally useleess shit around. inherent value and utilization should be more condensed. @@sjdtmv
Very nice... thanks for sharing what your doing... was wondering why 22S and not 21S ? Does it make much difference ?
From what I can gather, you look at the ranges of voltages from your inverter for full charge and cut off. For example:
Sol-ark supports 43V to 63V
LTO Voltages based on Series wiring:
1.5v discharge cut off:
Series 20 21 22 23 24
Cut off 30 31.5 33 34.5 36
2.8v charge voltage:
Series 20 21 22 23 24
Charge 56 58.8 61.6 64.4 67.2
22S would only discharge down to 43vdc (min on the Sol-ark) and completly charge up to 61.6vdc (max based on 2.8v cell).
@@SystemsPlanet Thanks for that very helpful
Can you give us a wiring diagram of just how you have these cells arranged? Thanks
Gday Ross,
Are these Lithium titanate batteries much faster to charge than lithium phosphate ? Can you give me a charge time example in relation to this 6kwh system.
Cheers
Regards Phil
Hi Phil, I have a Victron 150/70 clone solar controller with 4.2kw of solar panels feeding the LTO bank, this solar controller will only feed 70amps to the battery bank which is less then 1C charge, if I was to try to obtain a 10C change I would need 1200amp charge and that would involve 18 x 150/70 solar controllers and approximately 75kw of solar panels or approximately 300 solar panels the cost to do this test would be in the 10s of thousands of dollars, I gone the LTO way because of it's life span and temperature range usage.
Thanks Ross,
Was considering titanate due to the lack of solar I will have in the winter months due to my shading, so I will need to run a genny every few days in winter to charge batteries. Thought the titanate chemistry might charge quicker from the genny relative to phosphate ? I’m in south Tassie. Very short days in winter combined with shading. Summer no problem.....
Where did you get your cells? Why expensive LTO vs les expensive LifePo4 for a home application?
Safety and life cycle are the 2 main advantages
Cheers
@@patrickmckowen2999 what realistic lifecycles do the lifepo4's have ?
@@ndudman8
I think they say 2k. A few factors, rate of discharge....
And temperature. You can destroy standard lithium batteries if you don't watch the temp.
@@SystemsPlanet And of course charging at very low temps on lifepo4 needs care I think
expensive little set up at current prices.
The panel alone that it is in is expensive...
I don't understand why 66 expensive batteries are needed, if exactly the same power of 6kw (but one microsecond) can be obtained with only one small AAA type battery. Were you not taught at school what is power and what is the unit of energy?
Do you use a BMS ?
I have one coming, it is a DIY setup, that allows me to continuously data log the full S22 cell banks, czcams.com/video/E1OS0ZOmOT8/video.html
@@sjdtmv
How do you wire this?
Does it monitor individual cells or just each 22s series?
If the series, what happens when you get one of the batteries in the series in an over charged or under charged state?
Sorry I'm new to BMS's.
LA FIJACION con bulones tuercas ES MUY RIGIDA , DURA , CUANDO SE CALIENTEN LAS BATERIAS , LA DILATACION HARA QUE SE ROMPAN POR DENTRO , DEBERIAN TENER UNA EXPANCION , DE 4 MM PARA TOLERAR DILATACIONES , HACIENDO LAS CONEXIONES CON CABLE CHATO FLEXIBLE DE 3 CM X 1 CM DE ESPESOR , USADOS EN CONEXIONES DE LLAVES DE GRAN AMPERAJE DE TRANSFORMADORES