Holy shit!!! Finally someone on the same page as me. When someone asks me what the setting does, my reply is, "you're changing to a cassette that serves the terrain"! Great job!
Close enough for most of us... the distinction is screechy/niggling, but it goes like this: Power = Force x Velocity If you take Force and break it down into aero and climbing components (just for simplicity), then: Power = (aeroForce + climbForce) x Velocity A cassette swap acts on aeroForce + climbForce. Trainer difficulty only affects grade, therefore, it only acts on climbForce. Because cassette swap and trainer difficulty usually move in the same direction (their effects are coextensive), trainer difficulty adjustment *looks like* a cassette swap to normal people. When they move in the same direction, it *is like* a cassette swap (and that's how many people use the setting). But because they act on different variables, it's not a perfect match, and so it's not a cassette swap. There can also be some fun mathematical oddities, like when you lower the climbForce requirement even though you can comfortably output the power. (It can lead to higher velocity and thereby higher aeroForce.) All of that said, I agree with you all. I'm comfortable explaining it to people as a virtual cassette swap. It's how most of us use it. The distinction doesn't matter.
It would be great if you entered your gear ratio into Zwift (50/34 - 11/28) then the Trainer difficulty would show a different setting gauge on the slider that then shows you an 11-28 has now changed to a virtual 11-34 etc.
My man... I only started on zwift recently... I must be 50 hours of videos on videos, yet you're the 1st to come up on my feed solely explaining this. Many thanks!
you made my day. I have an old Trek SLR 2300 Alpha with Ultegra Groupset that I bought this summer. 53/39 and 11/25 is the gearing. I live in Switzerland and I have a hard time on some hills and won't even tackle others (I tried, but failed miserably). I am on Zwift for the second week now and found that setting yesterday...I was so happy to have climbed 10% grades and then dissapointet after finding the slider. Your video now just proved that I only did a virtual switch to a compact crank and 32ish in the back :) (I have the slider at 50%), thank you for rebuilding my confidence that was destroyed yesterday.
Ha! I had EXACTLY the same experience today - I climbed the Radio Tower (15%) yesterday (v happy) - BUT then discovered the 'slider' today set at 50% - and was gutted, because I assumed I had struggled up only a 7.5% climb. Went looking for an explanation, and found this video. So I'm happy again. It made me realise that IRL i never would have got up Radio Tower on my 12-25 cassette, and by having the slider on 50%, I was probably on a 11-34 or 11-32, which makes total sense now. Saves me having to buy a 11-34 cassette just for Zwift. This dude's video should be promoted by Zwift Support. And that Eric dude should stop saying "it only puts 50% of the gradient into your trainer" - because that is totally confusing. PS - I'm also on an old "classic" Trek 2200, from year 2001. 9-speed 105. Ride on.
@@Kameleonline Thanks! Please share! Also, don't be too hard on Eric, he is a Zen Zwifting Master... he runs "zwiftinsider.com" the best source for all things zwift, check his site out!
😁 I tried today and put the slider to max. Also upgraded my old ultegra to 12/27 (max cog that fits) not just for zwift but for real life and because the old cassette was shot. 8% feels like 8% i RL but funny that going downhill is easier now and the cadence fits the speed. But yea for more gradient I will switch to the virtual compact crank 😂
BEST explanation of this setting I've seen. Thank You. perfectly explained and now it all makes sense. now i can stop watching endless youtube videos trying to explain this. thanks max.
I 100% agree with this explanation and I also agree that no one else explains it well. From my point of view I want the trainer on Max because in the real world I can’t get off during a ride to install a bigger cassette so that I can spin more on big hills. Since I have the same cassette on my trainer as on my wheel, Max will ensure that my cadence will be the same on a 10% hill indoors versus outdoors for a given level of effort (watts).
Hi Max, you are a genius communicator. You have explained this brilliantly. My only suggestion for even further clarity (! if poss) - would be - when you say MAX = Reality, what you mean is "the reality of THAT cassette on THAT hill". If you ever remade this video, you could dramatise this by simply having 2 bikes in front of you - one with 12-25, and another with 11-34 for example... This is what you mean by reality - how it feels to ride up with Bike A, vs Bike B. They both get to the top at the same time (same watts applied), but the dude on the 12-25 (me) will have been doing weight-lifting with my legs.... The Zwift game can allow you to choose which cassette you prefer for climbing. Which is a great feature, as you say. Thanks again for making my day, I was getting stressed by misunderstanding the slider!
Very glad to help! I have a knack at translating "engineer-speak" into "regular guy-speak". Do me a favor and check out "The Axxion Rocker Plate" for indoor cycling.
Just came across this, pure enlightenment, now it all makes sense! This is also great to know if you have a separate "cheaper" setup for your turbo, it wouldn't matter the size of cassette and rings you have because you can balance it out in the "gearing selector". Great work, thank you!
THANK YOU!!! I know this is 2 years late lol, but you are the first person to make sense to me. Honestly when I first started I put it on MAX and thought "this seems more realistic on a very small incline"... it looks like my instincts were correct. I did notice on RGT that if I turned it down to MIN my bike wouldn't go very far and I had no power :)... This explanation is perfect! Thanks again for taking the time to figure this out by experimentation, and better yet, to share this so eloquently!
Great explanation. Riding up a volcano in the big ring was having a hyperinflationary effect on my ego. This will keep me in check. Thank you very much!
I cycle gills a lot on my normal bike outdoors, as Ive got older I've started getting knee pain, so last year I changed my cassette to have and extra gear or 2 and don't get knee pains anymore. Thanks for the explanation, the way you put it, is so simply put.
Brilliant! Did my FTP test last night and I was on the big chainring and halfway over the cassette. What that meant was when I needed to add more power, changing up one gear added too many watts for me to maintain (jump was 40 watts or thereabouts) so I had to change back down and increase my cadence to add a smaller amount of power. Theoretically then if I set it to max, that could put me on the middle chainring during the next FTP test so gear changes won't be as big allowing me to record a more accurate FTP. It also means I won't be running out of gears as I have been on flat sections in free ride. Excellent explanation. Going to play around with it tonight. :-)
Hi Mark! Note that the game acts this way only for climbing gradients. It behaves differently on flats, so you may still be able to spin out on the flats, I'm not sure. But what you have observed about running on a smaller ring is actually the best way to ride a bike up a hill. Using the mechanical advantage of the gears instead using machismo to brag about riding on the big ring is just plain smart!
Wow I had a pretty good handle on this but this just made it all very clear. You need Zwift to watch this and then change the DIfficulty heading to Gear Selector. Then have a description as to why you do this. Well done Max.
Great explanation, I would also add there is a preffered cadence for everyone, most of are in the middle about 80-90rpm, some guy spin 100rpm regulary, and then there are torque boys that do 60-65rpm al the time. But for most it is easier for knees, ligaments and tendons to spin more if they can, which also helps bloodflow and is more cardio based than muscle acid based. I'm planing to go for turbo trainer and zwift, and your suggestion seems best: Set it up so that you can have cadence on inclines as you would have in RL. For training purposes I might take it a notch down from time to time.
Been saying this for months!!! It is about making a trainer useful for more people! . 1) 250w up a climb equals a given speed for your Avatar. You still have to produce 250w regardless of your cadence and what gear you use....but 2) the difficulty slider allows people to make full use of their gear ratios depending on their ability. If you build a trainer capable of handling 500w in a high gear, but a user can only hold 150w, then that Smart trainer would be 'too hard' for them on any steep incline, and they would spend whole time in bottom few cogs. The slider allows for the differences in smart trainer ranges, AND the differences in user's capability. Some lesser trainers might not go up to the 15%+ incline that Zwift 100% setting would force, so may not be an issue, but a top end trainer can, and it would just make it impossible for weaker riders to use. It does not make pushing a wattage in game easier
Finally, finally it makes sense. Heard many definitions of what this setting does and none of them really seemed "logical"to me. As soon as you explained this I thought, of course! Thanks and subscribed.👍
@@Traxxion all the explanations I see about how this works seem to be missing a vital element... the descent. on the Tacx software there's a similar thing, but seems to work differently? the Tacx software version seems to be associated with the transitions between gradients, as well as the gradients themselves, where 100% is as realistic as 0%. if 100% gives you a disadvantage on an assent, it gives you a massive advantage on the descent as you can actually accelerate whilst coasting. the downside is the transitions between gradients are severe where going from a 10% descent to a 1% assent is like hitting a brick wall when pedaling the entire way through, the second you transition, the gear you're using on the 10% descent is a massive struggle to use on the 1% assent instantly, and on technical roads where it goes up/down/up/down, if you're not changing gear before the gradient change you better have a stack of cassettes and chains on standby, this maybe the result of using real data rather than data created to suit a digital land. If at 0% what advantage you gain by the assent being easier, is instantly destroyed as you need to peddle the entire way down the hill creating the same amount of watts as the uphill to go the same speed or you wont move, it's just like it completely flattens the hill out, no assent, no descent, just a grind from start to finish. setting it back from 100% to say 70% is like being a big fat bloke losing 30kg and the transitions between the gradients are far less severe and far more like real riding. I have it in my head that 100% is basically a really heavy dude, 0% is a no weight dude. is Zwift completely different? are there no differences in descent with 0% or 100%?
@@fergusdenoon1255 From what I can tell.... and I'm not an authority... Ascents are handled in one fashion by Zwift and that is what the trainer difficulty applies to. Zwift handles descents in a completely different fashion. Descents also behave differently depending upon what brand of trainer you use. I use a Wahoo Kickr. People talk about "spinning out" on descents, and that does not happen with a Wahoo Kickr. You can go from 0 watts to 400 and your rider will not accelerate once you are actually rolling at a good clip. It would seem if you were actually racing, finding the trainer that would allow you to accelerate on descents would be invaluable. One other note, Zwift misses badly with their algorithm for riders trying to bridge or close gaps. The game makes it virtually impossible to get back to a group once you drop from it. IRL, you just stand up and crank for 30 seconds and you rejoin your group. In Zwift, you won't advance hardly at all with any effort less than a dead sprint for whatever period of time is required to close the gap.
@@Traxxion Thanks for that reply, I intend getting into Zwift and this is all fascinating, I suppose at the end of the day it is using trainers built for training that all have different specifications, I bought a Tacx Neo that has high watt capability but not all trainers have that ability (I don't have that ability ;-) so the game will have to accommodate all models rather than specific ones. I've watched so many videos on this subject now, it's just very interesting that people expect it to be just like real life, considering all the factors that go into that it doesn't seem like a realistic pursuit, I'll always view it as a computer game rather than a simulation of real life I think, although they should sort out a few things if they expect people to peddle their hearts out in competitions. I've seen the dropping off factor and it just looks horrific, and seemingly descents are calculated at half what they display (at 100%) so Zwift riders aren't just coasting for long periods of time, tall riders are penalized on speed even with the same weight as a smaller rider, but at the end of the day it looks like great fun and can't wait to get started. If we were all the same size, the same weight, using the same trainer and the same gear ratio things would be much simpler for them I'm sure. Cheers.
@@fergusdenoon1255 Considering the age of the game, the state of its evolution is astounding to me, so I'm not complaining at all! As for Drop Outs.... to me, it's the DUMBEST thing in the industry that every trainer doesn't have the option to HARD CABLE the damn trainer to a USB port on your computer/laptop/tablet. Just STUPID.
Thank you! You explained perfect for me! Tommorow i'll try to ride Alpe du Zwift with reality settings using 50/34 (11-32 cassete). If i can't do it i'll mount a virtual little chainring to help me 😂
Thanks man, I've been absolutely killing myself on a 15% or so uphill with cadence of line 50/60 because I thought anything below max is cheating.. Thanks for saving my knees man!
Perfect. Thanks Max. That’s what I actually expected the setting would do but the other videos I watched seemed to overcomplicate the issue. Essentially, I just want to set it to a point where I’m using the same gears on my bike on the trainer as I would if I was on the same bike on the road for the same gradient of climb.
Finally after 6 years on Zwift I get it. Now please do a video and explain why really light riders have a harder time on Zwift. Sub 2 never exists for me because when the Beacon does 1.7 and 130 watts I'm doing 2.3-2.5 and 103 watts. I am always getting spit out the back. And don't get me started on downhills. I had a group ride the other day and was out within 3 minutes as we started the ride on a long downhill
This is sooooo helpful! I can't get up steep hills in Zwift. I have a really old bike on my trainer and it only has 7 gears on the cassette. I just thought I was a weakling but turns out my bike isn't geared for climbing... looks like this setting is no longer in the settings section anymore
@@Traxxion I was wrong. I was looking at it with my laptop in my office. After combing through the Zwift Insider forums it doesn't show up until you are paired with a device. I also found a way to edit the .xml file where that info is stored on my pc. I just changed it there instead of setting everything up right now and changing it.
Great explanation. with a 11-28 cassette and 36-52 chain ring I could not climb 15% grades with 100% diff so I set it to 75%. You may have heard of GP Lama he just did a video where talks about how Zwift halves the gradient percentage sent to the trainer on downhills etc.
Hi Vince! For reference, I have 50/34 and 11-32, and I could climb the Alpe on 100%, it took me 72 and 70 minutes. It was very very hard to turn the cranks, and I stand for about 35% of the climb. I tried 80%-ish, and I was able to get up in 66 and 65 minutes. The further reduction in gearing let me turn the cranks without killing myself.
Everything in the video is correct for a trainer capable of recreating all teh gradients in Zwift. We need to add additional considerations for trainers with more modest capabilities. A trainer that maxes out at e.g. 7% gradient loses any kind of fidelity on climbs steeper than 7%. All climbs greater than 7% feel constant, with no undulation. Immersion vanishes. Climbing Alpe du Zwift, for example, would be a constant resistance with momentary dips in resistance at bends. The continuous changes in gradient between 7% and 15% would not be felt. Lowering the trainer difficulty setting to half means that same trainer can now recreate undulations on climbs up to 14% gradient (7% x 2). Sure, they're only at half difficulty, but now do have some texture and immersion reappears, so perhaps max reality for that hypothetical 7% trainer is with the difficulty slider halfway, not at max. If we try to guess what equipment a typical first time user of Zwift is using, it's probably not the high end direct drive trainers capable of 15-25% gradients, so having a default in the middle kind of makes sense, even if misguided. I agree though that the label "Trainer Difficulty" has probably caused many of the problems. Renaming to "Gradient Simulation," or "Gearing Simulation," may help. Another approach might be for the the slider to ask the user to set the maximum simulation capability of the trainer. It would be possible to literally keep the same slider and algorithms and relabel it from "Min" and "Max" to "0%" and "16%" to perfectly scale any trainer to recreate Huez & Ventoux to the best of their abilities. (Or 0% & 25% if we want to also capture the brief steep bit at Richmond, but we reduce resistance on all other courses without increasing the resistance at Richmond (the trainer is already maxed out)) But then we realize most users probably don't know the max resistance of their trainer (I don't, and I'm a nerd), so that approach is dead in the water. Maybe there is a way for Zwift to do it automagically? - Zwift knows which trainer we are using, and having a reference table of trainer capabilities to pre-populate that slider would be trivial.
You got it... but note that this is for uphill gradients only. Downhill trainer brands seem to behave differently. I don't have a solid explanation of that.
DAMN!!!! You need to be working for them! I worked my AZZ off to hit 2 miles on my 11 speed. I just thought something was wrong because in the real world I would ride 15-20 miles a little under 2 hrs. (I got health issues). This make it a lot better of understanding
Thanks! That was a crystal clear explanation... I've just changed the drivetrain on my designated trainer-bike, now I can adjust for the smaller cassette:)
Not having to change gears is easier. You will transition much quicker from climbs to flats if you do not have to adjust your gearing. More than that, it shoots you in to the flatter parts of the road much faster than if you were in the lighter gears. For instance let's imagine if you are putting 200w on a 5% climb and at the top of it there is a 0% flat. Consider 2 scenarios where you would be riding on gear 1(lighter) and gear 5 (heavier). a) On gear 1 you are putting 200W but once you get to the 0% flat you practically drop to 40W. You have to gear down and putt power on. In Game delay will kill you for that. b) On gear 5 you are putting 200W and going at the same speed than in gear 1 because of the roller resistance adjustment. Once you get to the 0% flat you already are spinning on the 5th cog and the bike reaction is instantaneous because you didn't have Watts drop like in scenario a) at the top of the Hill. I am a light rider and my advantage is on hills. I have the difficulty set to 100% because i use zwift as a trainer to keep me fit for real road. I usually am at the top 1/4 of Zwift climbs and i overtake much more people than the ones who overtake me. But every time the climb % drops and i am in a flatter portion of the climb people behind me fly by me like motorcycles because my watts are now at 120W and i have to completely change my cadence and rhythm to adapt to a new cog. And like i said, in game delay will destroy you. This doesn't happen when you are on 50% difficulty. You get into your rhythm and no matter what happens to the terrain you really do not have to change your cadence or the weight on your legs that much. Anyone who actually ride bikes know that this is a huge advantage. At the end of the day you are putting the same Watts on a climb BUT, things changes when the terrain changes. One rider will have to adapt while the other just keeps on going. If that's not a considerable advantage, i don't know what is.
As long as you want your Zwift experience to not be real, and you want to have a fake impression of how good of a climber you are, then just put it to any setting you want. Real road riding will show you that using fake settings in a virtual world doesn't make you a better rider when you get outside of your house.
@@Traxxion Nothing beats the real world if we are trying to get better... on the real world. But if we want to use Zwift not only as a fitness interactive game but to actually maintain some sort of road form, there is only one setting to be in and it's 100%. Also, i will say that starting Zwift gave me a much more regular cardio/endurance schedule as my work hours are hectic. It does help you improve your road performance when used as a complement to road riding. But as far as climbs, a 50% or less trainer difficulty is complete garbage if we want to have some sort of gain from Zwift as far as climbs. If you don't get your legs, HR and cardio used to constant gear changes you will pay for it on the road. Getting used to mostly ride on the same gear is the opposite of what we should do IMO.
Great explanation, which has answered, a question I've had for a while. On my daily commute is a 22% 60m climb, which I've learned to cope with, but similar gradients on Zwift, feel easier. After watching your video I checked the Difficultly and it's set to default so by changing it to nearly Max, it now feels more realistic to my commute climb😁 (Still bl**dy hard though, ha ha ha). Thanks, Max
My kickr came with 11/25. I normally ride 11/32 for hills. I would die if on Alp de Zwift if I rode on max with 11/25. I’m able to keep my legs moving on default setting. This is the best explanation on trainer difficulty setting.
I bought an 11/32 for my Kickr, you can buy a cheap one, you don't need anything fancy. That way my bike feels the same inside and outside, and my chain is the correct length for both setups.
Thank you for this. I saw the difficulty setting and was wondering if I was cheating so I moved it to the most difficult setting. Now that I understand that it has everything to do with power output, it won't matter. I, too, have mountain gearing on my road bike for steep climbs. Some hills around here reach 18% grade.
Thanks for this bud, all makes sense now. I've never understood the funny attitudes some cyclist have about gear ratios, they often confuse torque with power.
Keep in mind this applies to ascending grades. They descents seem to behave differently depending on what trainer you have... I don't have a good handle on that. People talk about "spinning out", but I have a Wahoo Kickr, and it does the opposite of spinning out... it will barely accelerate no matter how hard you pedal down a hill.
This definitely makes sense. I had thought it was a grade modification, where 50% meant that a 12% grade would be modeled as a 6%, just to make it easier (and I was thinking how easy it would be for someone to cheat by setting it to 0 and doing all the climbs). But this makes much more sense. And I'll be trying 100% when I get home since I'm riding my touring bike 26/36/46, 11-36, I think) and I'm almost always in either the highest gear on the big ring or still in the top half of the cassette on the middle ring during climbs, and I have a ton of lower gears that can still come into play. Also perhaps it will help avoid getting spun out as much on descents.
Old post but i have the same problem. With my touring by, on the flat, it's like i'm missing some gear... But if you play 100% difficulty, you loose time by changing gear
Great explanation. Trainer settings is like having a CVT gear, instead of discrete step jumps and choices, you can have almost unlimited choices depending on where you set the setting between Min and Max. However, the specificity of training in such a way is obviously a whole other issue. To attain the specificity needed to riding IRL with a "limited" set of gears, and to train for the feeling (load/biomechanics etc), the trainer has to be set close to 100%, if not AT 100%. Secondly, wheel-on-trainers may add higher specificity since even IRL, you have a tire making contact where that contact force and rolling resistance becomes an appreciable factor when riding up very steep slopes. IRL, you may find despite having the lowest gears possible, you still zigzag all over the place and need to spin really high in order to keep the momentum, which may not be very efficient. Besides, there's also the issue of loss of inertia and tire slip at the extreme grades, all I think which can be simulated well with a combination of trainer settings and the wheel-on-trainer. For me, that's the biggest takeaway & independent thoughts inspired from this video.
Simply put: if you don't have the gearing for 15% hill you set the slider lower. If you want a very constant load but like to ride a hilly route, set it to 0
I worked this out straightaway. It makes the game more durable so it can accommodate people whose bikes have either high or low gears e.g. mountain bikes or racing bikes.
Almost, but not quite. It is not a matter of whether you can get up the grade, but do you want to get up the grade at a low cadence (less than 60), high cadence (more than 100) or to keep you in your preferred cadence. For most people, staying in your preferred cadence range (typically 80-90) is best. Going low allows you to do that (even when in reality you wouldn't be able to unless you had the mountain gearing on your bike.) Depending on your workout goals you select which cadence range you want. The second consideration is how much strain you want to put on your bike and how often you want to shift. Closer to reality means higher torque (lower cadence) which means (over time) more wear on your drivetrain. You will also need to shift more. I tend to stay at about 40% simply to allow me (in races) to big ring most climbs and without having to shift very much.
Your statement is mostly correct... you are wrong when you suggest that lower cadence with higher torque will wear your drivetrain less over time... it's the exact opposite. Revolutions are not what wears a drivetrain out, torque is. You could spin a bicycle drivetrain for 100,000 miles and wear nothing out at all with no torque on it. Mashing the pedals on a bike fails to use the mechanical advantage that lower gears offer, and this extreme load on chain and sprockets is what wears everything out.
NO NO NO!!! You still will select a gear for your preferred cadence!!! The ONLY things that will change when you move the slider is wheel speed and the gear you are in! Your power is the same. Your cadence is the same! You game speed is the SAME!!!
@@sevenrats and to further prove you don't understand what you are talking about, your wheel speed will not change by moving the slider, given that your power remains the same. But thanks for arguing without understanding what you are arguing about.
I'm totally agree with you but if you are In a race and you don't change the ring because you are in middle difficult you have an advantage because you are not changing your gears. But is a really good think that all the people began ride because of this feature. Thank you for your explanation.
Thanks for the explanation. If I am riding indoors I want almost the same gearing as outside. So I will shift it the next time more to the right untill I have the same feeling as outdoors. It would be a help if Zwift put a gradient on it. So if you ride 50/34 - 11/28 you set it on f.e 75% for 'the outdoor feeling'.
There's an incredible amount of chainring and cassette combos, I think that might be hard to do. But I'm sure they work on improving things like this all the time!
Shane Miller - GP Lama actually tested this with a Wahoo Kickr Bike. When difficulty is set at 50%, the resistance of the trainer itself when climbing at 14% will actually be at 7%, so people with bigger gears can handle the gradient. So half the resistance (7%) will go to your back wheel, half (the other 7) will go straight to your avatar slowing him/her down. Speed on screen and wattage will always be the same, no matter the setting from 0 to 100%. Combined with your excellent explanation, the full picture should be clear. I personally ride at 100% (reality), but only because my 50/34 11/30 gearing allows me to.
That's also not a bad way of looking at it. "Flatter" and "Reality" would be better words... But cyclists can't "flatten" the real world when they go outside to ride, but they can learn to change the gearing on their bike to suit the conditions they ride in. The reason gears exist on a bike is to make it easier to ride at a range of speeds across a range of gradients. People are going to find this setting very useful for when they try the mountain biking options and have to face very steep punchy hills, which you would never encounter on a road bike, and they'll need "mountain bike gears"... which are available by just moving the slider.
I think where trainer difficulty setting can be useful is when the bike on the trainer has different gearing to the bike you ride IRL. My IRL bike has a 28t bottom gear. My trainer bike is on 32t so I set trainer difficulty to 85% so it’s like riding my IRL instead. Other stuff: Trainer Difficulty also affects how the trainer feels downhill. I thought it made freewheeling faster but I’m not so sure now. Finally … given trainer difficulty is really about gearing simulation it’s a bit weird that the pro Zwift eSports now insist that all riders must use 100% (but not that their trainer bikes must have the same gearing!?)
I realised this pretty fast into my Zwift riding fun. I have a road bike here in flat Denmark and my gearing would never let me go up AdZ, so I slide down the bar to simulate a better gearing for mountain riding. If I ever want to tackle Alp d'Huez in the real world then I'll have to invest in gear that will allow me to do that :) At least I now know it is possible ;)
@@stevem2939 I did see the video and I don't agree with it as an argument for not using trainer difficulty to "gear" your bike differently. Saves me a lot of investment of cassettes and chain rings ;)
That was just a perfect deskription - loved it, and it makes so much sense - i know this depends on individual effort/perception/fitness - but has anyone made a schematic of where to categorize gearing in between, this should be the same for everyone (the feel of gearing in between - not the categorizing on the scale), - im riding singspeed (1x10 - 52T front - 11/36 rear) on my roadbike and love it - newer installing a front mech again. I however have no idea how this compares to other setups, but know i probably would need a smaller chainring if I were to ride actual mountains (my zwift setting is currently at standard 50%.)
Hello Johan! I have not tried to quantify what the changes would represent. But from what I have learned I would suggest that the slider is very sensitive. I would also say that I can't imagine what cyclist could ride the Alpe du Zwift on the big ring! Most Zwift courses by nature are very hilly. You might consider having a plain cheap bike on your trainer with 2X so you can ride the mountains. Because weight and aero don't matter, it can practically be most any bike. It would also be impossible to ride the MTB steering courses on a bike with a big road ring. From what I understand, if you take the slider to zero, it is equivalent to making the ground flat for gearing purposes. But the game will still require you to produce the same wattage as any other rider. I hope I didn't make this more confusing!
@@Traxxion I actually do all the mountains on zwift on my current setup - no prb. (of course the alpe is tough - but it always will be), jus a thought on weather or not a schematic existed - I do not doubt that if I were to go to the "real" alpe - I would need a smaller chainring (prob. between 40 and 44) haven't tied the steering yet :)
@@Traxxion My FTP is not much different aprox. 250 (3,8w/kg), acording to Zwift - i only did the alpe one time at the end of a longer ride after the radio-tower - 75min quite busted at the top.
The thing is that shifting up and down frequently makes you lose some watts every time you do it. You have to adjust your cadence very often. It's much easier to sustain the same power for longer in the same gear.
As long as you are trying to make your experience nothing like reality, and plan to never ride a real bike outside ever again, then that is a fine philosophy.
I agree. 300 watts is also easier to sustain on the flatts vs the climbs. So turning the trainer difficulty to the lowest setting allows me to cruise up climbs without issues. It's also easier on the muscles since they aren't contracting as much over gradient changes
I've also noticed that the gradients don't match what I ride outside. A 10% gradient on the trainer at 100 percent difficulty feels MUCH harder than a real 10% hill outdoors
Such a great explanation. Interesting that for vEveresting it is required to use the max setting. They probably think there is an advantage to using a lower setting?
If you wanted to do that, but couldn't turn the cranks on your road bike, just put a mountain bike on your trainer, set it Max and off you go! My wife and I did the Leadville 100,000 foot Challenge last fall that way.
Holy shit!!! Finally someone on the same page as me. When someone asks me what the setting does, my reply is, "you're changing to a cassette that serves the terrain"! Great job!
We shall be called heretics nonetheless
Close enough for most of us... the distinction is screechy/niggling, but it goes like this:
Power = Force x Velocity
If you take Force and break it down into aero and climbing components (just for simplicity), then:
Power = (aeroForce + climbForce) x Velocity
A cassette swap acts on aeroForce + climbForce.
Trainer difficulty only affects grade, therefore, it only acts on climbForce.
Because cassette swap and trainer difficulty usually move in the same direction (their effects are coextensive), trainer difficulty adjustment *looks like* a cassette swap to normal people.
When they move in the same direction, it *is like* a cassette swap (and that's how many people use the setting).
But because they act on different variables, it's not a perfect match, and so it's not a cassette swap. There can also be some fun mathematical oddities, like when you lower the climbForce requirement even though you can comfortably output the power. (It can lead to higher velocity and thereby higher aeroForce.)
All of that said, I agree with you all. I'm comfortable explaining it to people as a virtual cassette swap. It's how most of us use it. The distinction doesn't matter.
I've seen this slider best described as a "virtual cassette". That totally explains it to me.
It would be great if you entered your gear ratio into Zwift (50/34 - 11/28) then the Trainer difficulty would show a different setting gauge on the slider that then shows you an 11-28 has now changed to a virtual 11-34 etc.
If you could do that, they would be able to truly calculate your in game speed based on cadence. That would be cool!
This explanation makes the most sense to me. Thank you!
My man... I only started on zwift recently... I must be 50 hours of videos on videos, yet you're the 1st to come up on my feed solely explaining this.
Many thanks!
Glad it helped!
you made my day. I have an old Trek SLR 2300 Alpha with Ultegra Groupset that I bought this summer. 53/39 and 11/25 is the gearing. I live in Switzerland and I have a hard time on some hills and won't even tackle others (I tried, but failed miserably). I am on Zwift for the second week now and found that setting yesterday...I was so happy to have climbed 10% grades and then dissapointet after finding the slider. Your video now just proved that I only did a virtual switch to a compact crank and 32ish in the back :) (I have the slider at 50%), thank you for rebuilding my confidence that was destroyed yesterday.
Glad to hear it!
Ha! I had EXACTLY the same experience today - I climbed the Radio Tower (15%) yesterday (v happy) - BUT then discovered the 'slider' today set at 50% - and was gutted, because I assumed I had struggled up only a 7.5% climb. Went looking for an explanation, and found this video. So I'm happy again. It made me realise that IRL i never would have got up Radio Tower on my 12-25 cassette, and by having the slider on 50%, I was probably on a 11-34 or 11-32, which makes total sense now. Saves me having to buy a 11-34 cassette just for Zwift. This dude's video should be promoted by Zwift Support. And that Eric dude should stop saying "it only puts 50% of the gradient into your trainer" - because that is totally confusing. PS - I'm also on an old "classic" Trek 2200, from year 2001. 9-speed 105. Ride on.
@@Kameleonline Thanks! Please share! Also, don't be too hard on Eric, he is a Zen Zwifting Master... he runs "zwiftinsider.com" the best source for all things zwift, check his site out!
😁 I tried today and put the slider to max. Also upgraded my old ultegra to 12/27 (max cog that fits) not just for zwift but for real life and because the old cassette was shot. 8% feels like 8% i RL but funny that going downhill is easier now and the cadence fits the speed. But yea for more gradient I will switch to the virtual compact crank 😂
@@wickedtwix 12/27??? You are tougher than me. I like LOTS of gears! Big ol Granny!
BEST explanation of this setting I've seen. Thank You. perfectly explained and now it all makes sense. now i can stop watching endless youtube videos trying to explain this. thanks max.
Glad to help! Check out the Axxion Rocker Plate!
I 100% agree with this explanation and I also agree that no one else explains it well. From my point of view I want the trainer on Max because in the real world I can’t get off during a ride to install a bigger cassette so that I can spin more on big hills. Since I have the same cassette on my trainer as on my wheel, Max will ensure that my cadence will be the same on a 10% hill indoors versus outdoors for a given level of effort (watts).
I still get the occassional '"Engineer" who says I'm completely wrong, and then tries to explain how a rocket gets to the moon.
@@Traxxion they should call it “gear ratio adjuster”
Thanks Max for taking the time to explain this so clearly. Great job, Ride On!
Hi Max, you are a genius communicator. You have explained this brilliantly. My only suggestion for even further clarity (! if poss) - would be - when you say MAX = Reality, what you mean is "the reality of THAT cassette on THAT hill". If you ever remade this video, you could dramatise this by simply having 2 bikes in front of you - one with 12-25, and another with 11-34 for example... This is what you mean by reality - how it feels to ride up with Bike A, vs Bike B. They both get to the top at the same time (same watts applied), but the dude on the 12-25 (me) will have been doing weight-lifting with my legs.... The Zwift game can allow you to choose which cassette you prefer for climbing. Which is a great feature, as you say. Thanks again for making my day, I was getting stressed by misunderstanding the slider!
Very glad to help! I have a knack at translating "engineer-speak" into "regular guy-speak". Do me a favor and check out "The Axxion Rocker Plate" for indoor cycling.
Just came across this, pure enlightenment, now it all makes sense! This is also great to know if you have a separate "cheaper" setup for your turbo, it wouldn't matter the size of cassette and rings you have because you can balance it out in the "gearing selector". Great work, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
THANK YOU!!! I know this is 2 years late lol, but you are the first person to make sense to me. Honestly when I first started I put it on MAX and thought "this seems more realistic on a very small incline"... it looks like my instincts were correct. I did notice on RGT that if I turned it down to MIN my bike wouldn't go very far and I had no power :)... This explanation is perfect! Thanks again for taking the time to figure this out by experimentation, and better yet, to share this so eloquently!
Glad to help!!!!!!!
Excellent explanation. This is how I can ride my singlespeed bike on zwift!
Right on!
Even better explanation than some other bigger channels. Bravo.
Thanks, please share!
Finally first person who explained this that I can understand, and this make absolutely sense!
Thanks a bunch !!!!!
Happy to help!
Thanks. As a new cyclist, new to Zwift, this helps.
Hear hear!!
Great explanation. Riding up a volcano in the big ring was having a hyperinflationary effect on my ego. This will keep me in check. Thank you very much!
Glad it was helpful!
I cycle gills a lot on my normal bike outdoors, as Ive got older I've started getting knee pain, so last year I changed my cassette to have and extra gear or 2 and don't get knee pains anymore. Thanks for the explanation, the way you put it, is so simply put.
Thanks for sharing!
Brilliant! Did my FTP test last night and I was on the big chainring and halfway over the cassette. What that meant was when I needed to add more power, changing up one gear added too many watts for me to maintain (jump was 40 watts or thereabouts) so I had to change back down and increase my cadence to add a smaller amount of power. Theoretically then if I set it to max, that could put me on the middle chainring during the next FTP test so gear changes won't be as big allowing me to record a more accurate FTP. It also means I won't be running out of gears as I have been on flat sections in free ride. Excellent explanation. Going to play around with it tonight. :-)
Hi Mark! Note that the game acts this way only for climbing gradients. It behaves differently on flats, so you may still be able to spin out on the flats, I'm not sure.
But what you have observed about running on a smaller ring is actually the best way to ride a bike up a hill. Using the mechanical advantage of the gears instead using machismo to brag about riding on the big ring is just plain smart!
Wow I had a pretty good handle on this but this just made it all very clear. You need Zwift to watch this and then change the DIfficulty heading to Gear Selector. Then have a description as to why you do this. Well done Max.
Glad it helped!
Thanks Max, a very clear and helpful explanation of what trainer difficulty is.
Glad it was helpful!
Best explanation I’ve seen ever about this confusing issue.
Thanks, please share with friends!
Finally. This is the best explanation on YT. Thanks
Thanks!
Great explanation, I would also add there is a preffered cadence for everyone, most of are in the middle about 80-90rpm, some guy spin 100rpm regulary, and then there are torque boys that do 60-65rpm al the time. But for most it is easier for knees, ligaments and tendons to spin more if they can, which also helps bloodflow and is more cardio based than muscle acid based. I'm planing to go for turbo trainer and zwift, and your suggestion seems best: Set it up so that you can have cadence on inclines as you would have in RL. For training purposes I might take it a notch down from time to time.
Stew-roids!
Been saying this for months!!! It is about making a trainer useful for more people! . 1) 250w up a climb equals a given speed for your Avatar. You still have to produce 250w regardless of your cadence and what gear you use....but 2) the difficulty slider allows people to make full use of their gear ratios depending on their ability. If you build a trainer capable of handling 500w in a high gear, but a user can only hold 150w, then that Smart trainer would be 'too hard' for them on any steep incline, and they would spend whole time in bottom few cogs. The slider allows for the differences in smart trainer ranges, AND the differences in user's capability. Some lesser trainers might not go up to the 15%+ incline that Zwift 100% setting would force, so may not be an issue, but a top end trainer can, and it would just make it impossible for weaker riders to use. It does not make pushing a wattage in game easier
Finally, finally it makes sense. Heard many definitions of what this setting does and none of them really seemed "logical"to me. As soon as you explained this I thought, of course! Thanks and subscribed.👍
Happy to help!
@@Traxxion all the explanations I see about how this works seem to be missing a vital element... the descent.
on the Tacx software there's a similar thing, but seems to work differently?
the Tacx software version seems to be associated with the transitions between gradients, as well as the gradients themselves, where 100% is as realistic as 0%.
if 100% gives you a disadvantage on an assent, it gives you a massive advantage on the descent as you can actually accelerate whilst coasting. the downside is the transitions between gradients are severe where going from a 10% descent to a 1% assent is like hitting a brick wall when pedaling the entire way through, the second you transition, the gear you're using on the 10% descent is a massive struggle to use on the 1% assent instantly, and on technical roads where it goes up/down/up/down, if you're not changing gear before the gradient change you better have a stack of cassettes and chains on standby, this maybe the result of using real data rather than data created to suit a digital land.
If at 0% what advantage you gain by the assent being easier, is instantly destroyed as you need to peddle the entire way down the hill creating the same amount of watts as the uphill to go the same speed or you wont move, it's just like it completely flattens the hill out, no assent, no descent, just a grind from start to finish.
setting it back from 100% to say 70% is like being a big fat bloke losing 30kg and the transitions between the gradients are far less severe and far more like real riding.
I have it in my head that 100% is basically a really heavy dude, 0% is a no weight dude.
is Zwift completely different? are there no differences in descent with 0% or 100%?
@@fergusdenoon1255 From what I can tell.... and I'm not an authority... Ascents are handled in one fashion by Zwift and that is what the trainer difficulty applies to. Zwift handles descents in a completely different fashion. Descents also behave differently depending upon what brand of trainer you use. I use a Wahoo Kickr. People talk about "spinning out" on descents, and that does not happen with a Wahoo Kickr. You can go from 0 watts to 400 and your rider will not accelerate once you are actually rolling at a good clip. It would seem if you were actually racing, finding the trainer that would allow you to accelerate on descents would be invaluable.
One other note, Zwift misses badly with their algorithm for riders trying to bridge or close gaps. The game makes it virtually impossible to get back to a group once you drop from it. IRL, you just stand up and crank for 30 seconds and you rejoin your group. In Zwift, you won't advance hardly at all with any effort less than a dead sprint for whatever period of time is required to close the gap.
@@Traxxion Thanks for that reply, I intend getting into Zwift and this is all fascinating, I suppose at the end of the day it is using trainers built for training that all have different specifications, I bought a Tacx Neo that has high watt capability but not all trainers have that ability (I don't have that ability ;-) so the game will have to accommodate all models rather than specific ones.
I've watched so many videos on this subject now, it's just very interesting that people expect it to be just like real life, considering all the factors that go into that it doesn't seem like a realistic pursuit, I'll always view it as a computer game rather than a simulation of real life I think, although they should sort out a few things if they expect people to peddle their hearts out in competitions.
I've seen the dropping off factor and it just looks horrific, and seemingly descents are calculated at half what they display (at 100%) so Zwift riders aren't just coasting for long periods of time, tall riders are penalized on speed even with the same weight as a smaller rider, but at the end of the day it looks like great fun and can't wait to get started.
If we were all the same size, the same weight, using the same trainer and the same gear ratio things would be much simpler for them I'm sure.
Cheers.
@@fergusdenoon1255 Considering the age of the game, the state of its evolution is astounding to me, so I'm not complaining at all!
As for Drop Outs.... to me, it's the DUMBEST thing in the industry that every trainer doesn't have the option to HARD CABLE the damn trainer to a USB port on your computer/laptop/tablet. Just STUPID.
Thank you! You explained perfect for me! Tommorow i'll try to ride Alpe du Zwift with reality settings using 50/34 (11-32 cassete). If i can't do it i'll mount a virtual little chainring to help me 😂
Get you some mountain bike gears, you'll make it for sure!
Thanks man, I've been absolutely killing myself on a 15% or so uphill with cadence of line 50/60 because I thought anything below max is cheating.. Thanks for saving my knees man!
I respect your effort!!!!!!
Perfect. Thanks Max. That’s what I actually expected the setting would do but the other videos I watched seemed to overcomplicate the issue. Essentially, I just want to set it to a point where I’m using the same gears on my bike on the trainer as I would if I was on the same bike on the road for the same gradient of climb.
You're spot on. I have it set so that the majority of my riding is in the middle of the cassette offing the most range.
Finally after 6 years on Zwift I get it. Now please do a video and explain why really light riders have a harder time on Zwift. Sub 2 never exists for me because when the Beacon does 1.7 and 130 watts I'm doing 2.3-2.5 and 103 watts. I am always getting spit out the back. And don't get me started on downhills. I had a group ride the other day and was out within 3 minutes as we started the ride on a long downhill
That's a complex topic for sure!
This is sooooo helpful! I can't get up steep hills in Zwift. I have a really old bike on my trainer and it only has 7 gears on the cassette. I just thought I was a weakling but turns out my bike isn't geared for climbing...
looks like this setting is no longer in the settings section anymore
Really? No longer a setting? Interesting... I have been off the bike for a year as I am building a house in my spare time.
@@Traxxion I was wrong. I was looking at it with my laptop in my office. After combing through the Zwift Insider forums it doesn't show up until you are paired with a device. I also found a way to edit the .xml file where that info is stored on my pc. I just changed it there instead of setting everything up right now and changing it.
Thank you. This is the best explanation I’ve heard about trainer difficulty!
Happy to help!
Thank you very much for doing all the research and testing. Makes 100% sense now
Great explanation. with a 11-28 cassette and 36-52 chain ring I could not climb 15% grades with 100% diff so I set it to 75%. You may have heard of GP Lama he just did a video where talks about how Zwift halves the gradient percentage sent to the trainer on downhills etc.
Hi Vince! For reference, I have 50/34 and 11-32, and I could climb the Alpe on 100%, it took me 72 and 70 minutes. It was very very hard to turn the cranks, and I stand for about 35% of the climb. I tried 80%-ish, and I was able to get up in 66 and 65 minutes. The further reduction in gearing let me turn the cranks without killing myself.
Excellent explanation! I had no idea you were a cyclist, I had you rework the forks on my '02 Goldwing years ago, rode like a dream after that.
Cool... small world!
Everything in the video is correct for a trainer capable of recreating all teh gradients in Zwift. We need to add additional considerations for trainers with more modest capabilities.
A trainer that maxes out at e.g. 7% gradient loses any kind of fidelity on climbs steeper than 7%. All climbs greater than 7% feel constant, with no undulation. Immersion vanishes. Climbing Alpe du Zwift, for example, would be a constant resistance with momentary dips in resistance at bends. The continuous changes in gradient between 7% and 15% would not be felt.
Lowering the trainer difficulty setting to half means that same trainer can now recreate undulations on climbs up to 14% gradient (7% x 2). Sure, they're only at half difficulty, but now do have some texture and immersion reappears, so perhaps max reality for that hypothetical 7% trainer is with the difficulty slider halfway, not at max.
If we try to guess what equipment a typical first time user of Zwift is using, it's probably not the high end direct drive trainers capable of 15-25% gradients, so having a default in the middle kind of makes sense, even if misguided.
I agree though that the label "Trainer Difficulty" has probably caused many of the problems. Renaming to "Gradient Simulation," or "Gearing Simulation," may help.
Another approach might be for the the slider to ask the user to set the maximum simulation capability of the trainer. It would be possible to literally keep the same slider and algorithms and relabel it from "Min" and "Max" to "0%" and "16%" to perfectly scale any trainer to recreate Huez & Ventoux to the best of their abilities. (Or 0% & 25% if we want to also capture the brief steep bit at Richmond, but we reduce resistance on all other courses without increasing the resistance at Richmond (the trainer is already maxed out))
But then we realize most users probably don't know the max resistance of their trainer (I don't, and I'm a nerd), so that approach is dead in the water. Maybe there is a way for Zwift to do it automagically? - Zwift knows which trainer we are using, and having a reference table of trainer capabilities to pre-populate that slider would be trivial.
This is exactly what I was looking for to understand what this feature is.
That’s a really comprehensive information about the trainer difficulty. Thanks so much
You're welcome!
Thank you, finally I understand the setting. It's basically a gear ratio changer if I understand correctly.
You got it... but note that this is for uphill gradients only. Downhill trainer brands seem to behave differently. I don't have a solid explanation of that.
This was very helpful . On the road I like to spin at 87-93 rpm. But on swift I’m constantly at 80rpm !!! Thank you !!!! I’ll get spinning again
Mashing is no good for your knees!
DAMN!!!! You need to be working for them! I worked my AZZ off to hit 2 miles on my 11 speed. I just thought something was wrong because in the real world I would ride 15-20 miles a little under 2 hrs. (I got health issues). This make it a lot better of understanding
Thanks!
Finally a good explanation, I understand now! Thank you so much!!!
Please share!
Nicely done Max. Very clear.
Thanks!
Bravo! Finally someone who explains it the same way as I do. Thank you for making this video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks! That was a crystal clear explanation... I've just changed the drivetrain on my designated trainer-bike, now I can adjust for the smaller cassette:)
Great to hear!
Not having to change gears is easier. You will transition much quicker from climbs to flats if you do not have to adjust your gearing. More than that, it shoots you in to the flatter parts of the road much faster than if you were in the lighter gears.
For instance let's imagine if you are putting 200w on a 5% climb and at the top of it there is a 0% flat. Consider 2 scenarios where you would be riding on gear 1(lighter) and gear 5 (heavier).
a) On gear 1 you are putting 200W but once you get to the 0% flat you practically drop to 40W. You have to gear down and putt power on. In Game delay will kill you for that.
b) On gear 5 you are putting 200W and going at the same speed than in gear 1 because of the roller resistance adjustment. Once you get to the 0% flat you already are spinning on the 5th cog and the bike reaction is instantaneous because you didn't have Watts drop like in scenario a) at the top of the Hill.
I am a light rider and my advantage is on hills. I have the difficulty set to 100% because i use zwift as a trainer to keep me fit for real road. I usually am at the top 1/4 of Zwift climbs and i overtake much more people than the ones who overtake me. But every time the climb % drops and i am in a flatter portion of the climb people behind me fly by me like motorcycles because my watts are now at 120W and i have to completely change my cadence and rhythm to adapt to a new cog. And like i said, in game delay will destroy you.
This doesn't happen when you are on 50% difficulty. You get into your rhythm and no matter what happens to the terrain you really do not have to change your cadence or the weight on your legs that much. Anyone who actually ride bikes know that this is a huge advantage. At the end of the day you are putting the same Watts on a climb BUT, things changes when the terrain changes. One rider will have to adapt while the other just keeps on going.
If that's not a considerable advantage, i don't know what is.
As long as you want your Zwift experience to not be real, and you want to have a fake impression of how good of a climber you are, then just put it to any setting you want. Real road riding will show you that using fake settings in a virtual world doesn't make you a better rider when you get outside of your house.
@@Traxxion Nothing beats the real world if we are trying to get better... on the real world.
But if we want to use Zwift not only as a fitness interactive game but to actually maintain some sort of road form, there is only one setting to be in and it's 100%.
Also, i will say that starting Zwift gave me a much more regular cardio/endurance schedule as my work hours are hectic. It does help you improve your road performance when used as a complement to road riding.
But as far as climbs, a 50% or less trainer difficulty is complete garbage if we want to have some sort of gain from Zwift as far as climbs. If you don't get your legs, HR and cardio used to constant gear changes you will pay for it on the road.
Getting used to mostly ride on the same gear is the opposite of what we should do IMO.
@@gabkoost Sounds like we are in complete agreement.
Makes sense!
I didn’t spend $5000 for a bicycle to walk up the hill
HAHA!
Great explanation, which has answered, a question I've had for a while. On my daily commute is a 22% 60m climb, which I've learned to cope with, but similar gradients on Zwift, feel easier. After watching your video I checked the Difficultly and it's set to default so by changing it to nearly Max, it now feels more realistic to my commute climb😁 (Still bl**dy hard though, ha ha ha). Thanks, Max
Happy to make your virtual ride as painful as your real ride!!!
Just got a new smart trainer this really helped. Thanks
Glad it helped!
My kickr came with 11/25. I normally ride 11/32 for hills. I would die if on Alp de Zwift if I rode on max with 11/25. I’m able to keep my legs moving on default setting. This is the best explanation on trainer difficulty setting.
I bought an 11/32 for my Kickr, you can buy a cheap one, you don't need anything fancy. That way my bike feels the same inside and outside, and my chain is the correct length for both setups.
Thank you! I wish all Zwifters would watch this video!!
Please Share with friends!
Thanks, this is the very first explanation that I understand and makes sense.
Glad it was helpful!
That's exactly right! We'll done explaining!
Thanks!!!
Thank you for this. I saw the difficulty setting and was wondering if I was cheating so I moved it to the most difficult setting. Now that I understand that it has everything to do with power output, it won't matter. I, too, have mountain gearing on my road bike for steep climbs. Some hills around here reach 18% grade.
Exactly.... people set it to the middle and think they can ride outside up hills on the big ring... hahaha!
I've been wondering why I'm on my biggest gear and it feels like I'm going nowhere. Thank you!
Glad to help!
Thanks for this bud, all makes sense now. I've never understood the funny attitudes some cyclist have about gear ratios, they often confuse torque with power.
Glad to help
Keep in mind this applies to ascending grades. They descents seem to behave differently depending on what trainer you have... I don't have a good handle on that. People talk about "spinning out", but I have a Wahoo Kickr, and it does the opposite of spinning out... it will barely accelerate no matter how hard you pedal down a hill.
Awesome, Perfect explanation! Thank You.
If this is it its AWSOME! What a Great video! I understand it completely
Glad you liked it!
This definitely makes sense. I had thought it was a grade modification, where 50% meant that a 12% grade would be modeled as a 6%, just to make it easier (and I was thinking how easy it would be for someone to cheat by setting it to 0 and doing all the climbs).
But this makes much more sense. And I'll be trying 100% when I get home since I'm riding my touring bike 26/36/46, 11-36, I think) and I'm almost always in either the highest gear on the big ring or still in the top half of the cassette on the middle ring during climbs, and I have a ton of lower gears that can still come into play. Also perhaps it will help avoid getting spun out as much on descents.
Old post but i have the same problem. With my touring by, on the flat, it's like i'm missing some gear... But if you play 100% difficulty, you loose time by changing gear
Great explanation. Trainer settings is like having a CVT gear, instead of discrete step jumps and choices, you can have almost unlimited choices depending on where you set the setting between Min and Max. However, the specificity of training in such a way is obviously a whole other issue. To attain the specificity needed to riding IRL with a "limited" set of gears, and to train for the feeling (load/biomechanics etc), the trainer has to be set close to 100%, if not AT 100%. Secondly, wheel-on-trainers may add higher specificity since even IRL, you have a tire making contact where that contact force and rolling resistance becomes an appreciable factor when riding up very steep slopes. IRL, you may find despite having the lowest gears possible, you still zigzag all over the place and need to spin really high in order to keep the momentum, which may not be very efficient. Besides, there's also the issue of loss of inertia and tire slip at the extreme grades, all I think which can be simulated well with a combination of trainer settings and the wheel-on-trainer. For me, that's the biggest takeaway & independent thoughts inspired from this video.
Simply put: if you don't have the gearing for 15% hill you set the slider lower. If you want a very constant load but like to ride a hilly route, set it to 0
Brilliant video Max, thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Thanks for this excellent explanation.
Glad it was helpful!
Absolutely the explanation I was looking for. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Pffff vey usefull, this was loud and clear!
Prefect explanation! Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
I worked this out straightaway. It makes the game more durable so it can accommodate people whose bikes have either high or low gears e.g. mountain bikes or racing bikes.
Best and clearest explanation I have seen for this. Thanks!
Almost, but not quite. It is not a matter of whether you can get up the grade, but do you want to get up the grade at a low cadence (less than 60), high cadence (more than 100) or to keep you in your preferred cadence.
For most people, staying in your preferred cadence range (typically 80-90) is best. Going low allows you to do that (even when in reality you wouldn't be able to unless you had the mountain gearing on your bike.) Depending on your workout goals you select which cadence range you want.
The second consideration is how much strain you want to put on your bike and how often you want to shift. Closer to reality means higher torque (lower cadence) which means (over time) more wear on your drivetrain. You will also need to shift more.
I tend to stay at about 40% simply to allow me (in races) to big ring most climbs and without having to shift very much.
Your statement is mostly correct... you are wrong when you suggest that lower cadence with higher torque will wear your drivetrain less over time... it's the exact opposite. Revolutions are not what wears a drivetrain out, torque is. You could spin a bicycle drivetrain for 100,000 miles and wear nothing out at all with no torque on it. Mashing the pedals on a bike fails to use the mechanical advantage that lower gears offer, and this extreme load on chain and sprockets is what wears everything out.
@@Traxxion That's what he also said, Max.
@@cowboycatranch Hi Cowboy, you are right, I read his response backwards!
NO NO NO!!! You still will select a gear for your preferred cadence!!! The ONLY things that will change when you move the slider is wheel speed and the gear you are in! Your power is the same. Your cadence is the same! You game speed is the SAME!!!
@@sevenrats and to further prove you don't understand what you are talking about, your wheel speed will not change by moving the slider, given that your power remains the same.
But thanks for arguing without understanding what you are arguing about.
I'm totally agree with you but if you are In a race and you don't change the ring because you are in middle difficult you have an advantage because you are not changing your gears. But is a really good think that all the people began ride because of this feature.
Thank you for your explanation.
I understand how racers use this setting to their advantage... can't stop racers from trying to gain an advantage!
Thanks. this totally makes since.
Brilliant explanation, so many think less than 100% is cheating. Thank you 👍👏
Happy to help!
Finally an explanation that make sense!!!! Thank you 😊💘😊
Glad it was helpful!
That's they way it has to be explained! Thanks!!!
Happy to help!
Excellent explanation thank you 👍🏻
Finally!.. Well explained.. Thank you very much for the info!..
Happy to help!
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great explanation - i ride my 1x with 46t front and this is a great feature
Thanks for the explanations! Very informative.
Excellent! At last I understand what this is for. Thank you!
Great to hear!
Super Erklärung. Endlich verstanden. Vielen Dank.
Great explanation. Finally got it. Thanks a lot.
Yep, the physics doesn't change. The amount of energy required to a climb a mountain does not change.
I have never ever been interested in making Zwift more difficult!!!
Thanks for the explanation. If I am riding indoors I want almost the same gearing as outside. So I will shift it the next time more to the right untill I have the same feeling as outdoors. It would be a help if Zwift put a gradient on it. So if you ride 50/34 - 11/28 you set it on f.e 75% for 'the outdoor feeling'.
There's an incredible amount of chainring and cassette combos, I think that might be hard to do. But I'm sure they work on improving things like this all the time!
Shane Miller - GP Lama actually tested this with a Wahoo Kickr Bike. When difficulty is set at 50%, the resistance of the trainer itself when climbing at 14% will actually be at 7%, so people with bigger gears can handle the gradient. So half the resistance (7%) will go to your back wheel, half (the other 7) will go straight to your avatar slowing him/her down. Speed on screen and wattage will always be the same, no matter the setting from 0 to 100%. Combined with your excellent explanation, the full picture should be clear. I personally ride at 100% (reality), but only because my 50/34 11/30 gearing allows me to.
They should have called it "Gradient Feel" with Min and Max changed to "Flat" and "Realistic".
That's also not a bad way of looking at it. "Flatter" and "Reality" would be better words... But cyclists can't "flatten" the real world when they go outside to ride, but they can learn to change the gearing on their bike to suit the conditions they ride in. The reason gears exist on a bike is to make it easier to ride at a range of speeds across a range of gradients. People are going to find this setting very useful for when they try the mountain biking options and have to face very steep punchy hills, which you would never encounter on a road bike, and they'll need "mountain bike gears"... which are available by just moving the slider.
Love it. Great explanation. Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Was amazing explanation , thank you 🙏
Glad it was helpful!
Took a while to get to the point, but very helpful.
Thank you for this. I thought it was something like this from doing my own experiments. Excellent
Glad to help!
Thanks for this vid, very well explained.
Glad it was helpful!
I think where trainer difficulty setting can be useful is when the bike on the trainer has different gearing to the bike you ride IRL. My IRL bike has a 28t bottom gear. My trainer bike is on 32t so I set trainer difficulty to 85% so it’s like riding my IRL instead.
Other stuff: Trainer Difficulty also affects how the trainer feels downhill. I thought it made freewheeling faster but I’m not so sure now.
Finally … given trainer difficulty is really about gearing simulation it’s a bit weird that the pro Zwift eSports now insist that all riders must use 100% (but not that their trainer bikes must have the same gearing!?)
Other way round sorry … I meant to say my trainer bike is 28t and IRL is 32t
Pretty much validates everything I have said!
Great explanation, thanks mate.
Glad it helped!
I realised this pretty fast into my Zwift riding fun. I have a road bike here in flat Denmark and my gearing would never let me go up AdZ, so I slide down the bar to simulate a better gearing for mountain riding. If I ever want to tackle Alp d'Huez in the real world then I'll have to invest in gear that will allow me to do that :) At least I now know it is possible ;)
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@@stevem2939 I did see the video and I don't agree with it as an argument for not using trainer difficulty to "gear" your bike differently. Saves me a lot of investment of cassettes and chain rings ;)
That was just a perfect deskription - loved it, and it makes so much sense - i know this depends on individual effort/perception/fitness - but has anyone made a schematic of where to categorize gearing in between, this should be the same for everyone (the feel of gearing in between - not the categorizing on the scale), - im riding singspeed (1x10 - 52T front - 11/36 rear) on my roadbike and love it - newer installing a front mech again. I however have no idea how this compares to other setups, but know i probably would need a smaller chainring if I were to ride actual mountains (my zwift setting is currently at standard 50%.)
Hello Johan!
I have not tried to quantify what the changes would represent. But from what I have learned I would suggest that the slider is very sensitive. I would also say that I can't imagine what cyclist could ride the Alpe du Zwift on the big ring! Most Zwift courses by nature are very hilly. You might consider having a plain cheap bike on your trainer with 2X so you can ride the mountains. Because weight and aero don't matter, it can practically be most any bike. It would also be impossible to ride the MTB steering courses on a bike with a big road ring. From what I understand, if you take the slider to zero, it is equivalent to making the ground flat for gearing purposes. But the game will still require you to produce the same wattage as any other rider. I hope I didn't make this more confusing!
@@Traxxion I actually do all the mountains on zwift on my current setup - no prb. (of course the alpe is tough - but it always will be), jus a thought on weather or not a schematic existed - I do not doubt that if I were to go to the "real" alpe - I would need a smaller chainring (prob. between 40 and 44) haven't tied the steering yet :)
You must have a great FTP! Mine is around 220 right now. I have done the Alpe in 65 minutes, but I have 50/34 and 11-32!
@@Traxxion My FTP is not much different aprox. 250 (3,8w/kg), acording to Zwift - i only did the alpe one time at the end of a longer ride after the radio-tower - 75min quite busted at the top.
Finally found the explanation !! Thank you ... I gonna set it to 100% right now....📿🚀💥
The thing is that shifting up and down frequently makes you lose some watts every time you do it. You have to adjust your cadence very often. It's much easier to sustain the same power for longer in the same gear.
As long as you are trying to make your experience nothing like reality, and plan to never ride a real bike outside ever again, then that is a fine philosophy.
I agree. 300 watts is also easier to sustain on the flatts vs the climbs. So turning the trainer difficulty to the lowest setting allows me to cruise up climbs without issues. It's also easier on the muscles since they aren't contracting as much over gradient changes
I've also noticed that the gradients don't match what I ride outside. A 10% gradient on the trainer at 100 percent difficulty feels MUCH harder than a real 10% hill outdoors
Don't you adjust often outdoors. I'm adjusting constantly because I live in an area of constant rollers
Finally, a great explanation. Thank you.
Thanks for the explanation! Perfectly clear!
Thanx. Clear !!! Good story
Glad it helped!
Such a great explanation. Interesting that for vEveresting it is required to use the max setting. They probably think there is an advantage to using a lower setting?
If you wanted to do that, but couldn't turn the cranks on your road bike, just put a mountain bike on your trainer, set it Max and off you go! My wife and I did the Leadville 100,000 foot Challenge last fall that way.