Why it was Great: Vanilla WoW Itemization | Classic WoW
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- čas přidán 4. 09. 2024
- Tip breaks down what made Vanilla Item Stats so great.
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I think one of the biggest things that people who vouch for modern itemization forget is this:
Can you name a single non-legendary, non-Artifact piece of equipment you are wearing on your main character right now and list what stats it has and in what amounts, and can you remember where you got that piece?
Yeah, the stat spreads could range from near-useless for 99% of all cases, to absolutely irreplaceable until you progress through seven levels and two tiers of raiding (looking at you, Hand of Justice). But I remember them. I remember getting a Whirlwind Axe and feeling incredible. I remember the suite of awesome caster gear you could collect through Scarlet Monastery - Whitemane's Chapeau, the Illusionary Rod, Doan's Mantle and Robe, and many other notable pieces like the Hand of Righteousness or Herod's Shoulder. We don't remember them because Blizzard decided in Wrath to make them Heirlooms - they made them Heirlooms because they were memorable; because we knew what they were when we saw them on a character.
Gear itemization nowadays is simple. It's too simple, really; any given piece of gear will have your Primary Stat, Stamina, and two variable secondary stats. These numbers are directly-tied to the item level, which, on paper makes sense - again, it is strange to imagine how a single item being head-and-shoulders above anything else for quite a long time without being replaced by what should logically be better items would make sense (again, looking at you, Hand of Justice), but it does. Large differences in item utility mean you, y'know, have to look at the items themselves, engage with them, and figure out what they do for you and if they are an option, rather than check the item level and probably dismiss it outright if it's lower. The homogenized, uniform stats at each item level boils gear down to essentially two questions, and only one for many, many players nowadays:
Does this item have a high item level?
And
Does this item have the right secondary stats?
I can't name a single item any of my characters have equipped right now. At best, I can tell you what item level they are, and which two secondary stats it has. I can't tell you the amounts of stats, or where I got the item from, or what the item's look is, or anything about it. Nothing about these items is relevant except for the item level and the secondary stats. I'm pretty sure you could stop naming items and stop giving them base appearances, and no one would care; everyone transmogs over everything anyways, and no one cares to read their names or connect.
Vanilla WoW did that, and it did it phenomenally. So for the people saying vanilla itemization is terrible because Icemail Jerkin had +24 Spirit on it and that was 'literally useless', all I can reply with is 'but you still remembered it a decade and a half later if you ever did find a use for that item'.
Gear was rare back in the day that was the difference. I raided ZG for over 12 months and didn't get a single drop. I was exalted well before I should have gotten an upgrade. I never got those healing plate gloves and I even had dreams about being unable to click need on them. My guild ran MC even though we were working on AQ40 because many of us still have holes in our gear. We clear all but the last boss in AQ40 and then did an MC run where I finally got my T1 chest after two years of MC raiding. Remember how good itemization is the next time shadow strike drops instead of something useful.
Yes, this. I'll never forget Leaping/Bounding Boots from FFXI. Pieces of gear that MEAN SOMETHING to you other than their boost to your power level is something *I WANT* even if it means a terrible dooky grind towards it being mediocre. I'd rather know and love the piece than forget and use it.
I can name you the pants on my Rogue, because I did a doubletake at getting the same item twice. A closer look revealed that wasn't the case; I replaced Scorching Sand Leggings with Scorching Sand Breeches, their stats as identical as their names.
Leveling a rogue, killing a random mob and seeing Basilisk Hide Pants. *ooohhhgodithinkicame*
It's funny because thinking about it, the design philosophy behind vanilla and TBC WoW was very similar to the design philosophy behind Dark Souls
This video really hit the nail on the head regarding what is missing from modern WoW and what made Vanilla through Lich King WoW so interesting. I love the work, I'm looking forward to seeing more!
100% agree. That was the awesome thing about Vanilla: you could find so many items that were somewhat useful that made all the game felt alive. You had to think so much about your gear...
You just felt like you had to think more about your gear because theory crafting didn’t have the same tools as it does now. I don’t know for sure but I would guess that with titanforging live has far more gearing options and choices and I can set a program get up to get a drink and by the time I get back I know what would be the best gear set to use. As soon as classic beta is released people will start working on fine tuning programs for classic and will be able to spit out BiS lists.
What I’m trying to say is it had less to do with the way itemization worked in vanilla and more to do with the theory crafting community or lack there of.
I distinctly remember that I wanted to tame Bjarn. A bear in Dun Morogh with 1,55 attackspeed. So fast speed but sturdiness of a bear. Good for both PvP and PvE.
Now his attack speed stems from him being a rare. I tried taming him... he four shot me. What did I do, I got all my gold and bought a sleep dust from the AH. It's a dust that drops from lvl 18 air elementals in Westfall.
That is what makes WoW great.
Smokey's lighter is still my favorite trinket of all time.
today we are able to use machine learning programms for such problems. Databases and computing power is available for general population today.
I completely agree. I don't really like the current iLVL approach to absolutely everything =(
I would love to see an extended video on this topic where you go into much more depth. This is one of the reasons why I enjoyed old school WoW and I know so many other players did too.
Hey man. Been watching your videos for a good while now, love the content. Can't wait for vanilla to be released.
Only cleared 1 wing in naxx back in real vanilla, looking forward to tank the shit out of the rest when its released! :D
If there's a single word that condenses the WoW vanilla experience it's this : alive. The world/community felt alive, with all its quirks and loose ends.
More even than that I miss playing weird specs. Spec choice and gearing without the paint-by-numbers framework we play with now was a major reason that I was seriously WOW ADDICTED! It was so fun and engaging.
Lots of people did not care about min/maxing it was about having fun and just playing with different variables, talents/gear to come up with a playstyle that you enjoyed and performed well in the things you liked to do.
Damn good video.
I 100% agree with everything you said.
Interesting itemization makes the game and world feel more alive ! Amen to that! One of the reasons I love vanilla so much. The "endless" possibilities in the game.
Activision Blizzard would today call it "broken" and "not fixed". But precisely this brokenness was one of many reasons why Vanilla WoW was so good. And interesting!
"You were thinking about [itemization] even when you weren't even playing." - I couldn't agree more
Holy hell, how is it that I haven't heard of this channel before? Great Vid!
I remember playing vanilla at the age of 14, and my warlock was looking to do some tailoring. As I was scrolling through my options, I came across the pattern for blue overalls - a cloth piece with a bonus to strength. "What? Why would Blizzard even make that item? Why would a warrior ever want to wear that item!? It's only advantage over an item in mail/plate is the reduced repair cost of cloth!" Might not seem like much, but that small moment made young me stop and think about realities where someone would want just such an item - A good mental exercise that made me look at many items in a new way, and ultimately improved my experience with the game. Good times.
Man Vanilla itemization looks like it is going to be so fun! I can't wait!
The differences in itemization and crazy effects of some gear is one of the reasons I'm really looking forward to Classic, especially at endgame. It's gonna be a real breath of fresh air to have so much more thought put into gear and how it works. In the live game, you really just look for something that's higher item level than what you're wearing and, chances are, it's gonna be an upgrade. Not to mention that I really like the idea that you won't always wear pieces of gear that are of your normal armor type. A Warrior in the live game would absolutely NEVER wear anything but Plate. I like that in Classic, you'll end up wearing different kinds of armor because some pieces might benefit your Class/role more- it just feels more RPG-like to me, if that makes sense.
As always, great video, Tips! Really building hype for Classic :D
I love your style of videos, glad I found this channel :) looking forward to following the journey towards Classic Wow
I was a rogue that could polymorph, root, sleep, fling fireballs, stack sprint with rocket boots. Loved making other players go wtf how he do that. Favourite item, green whelp leather armour, favorite moment, beating a fully geared warrior in a duel with a fishing rod.
See it may be the case that in vanilla you were truly thinking about what was the best gear for your class. what items to go for. Etc. But as you've said, BIS lists have been composed, and they're mathematically based. As someone who's maintanked classic raids for a long time. Even my first time that decision making was long gone. I was told I needed fire resist for Baron / ragg etc. So I got it and put it on for Baron / Rag. It wasn't really a question of... "well do I use this fire resist piece normally?" "Depends?" No. It's more like, Ok this set gets me def cap, provides lots of stam + str/crit for threat. I'll use that. Fire resist piece? Sure for Rag. But not for anything else. My point is the itemization isn't something to be theory-crafted anymore. That has already run it's course.
What made itemization great, was the search for singular pieces that were your BIS, not searching for an upgrade. Getting Pre raid BIS feels extremely rewarding, and running the instances for these pieces doesn't feel like you're just grinding it out day in and day out, it feels more like a process of completion with rewards all along the way. In today's wow; "Mast + Crit = best." "Piece no have Mast + Crit, me no want." Items don't have their meaning anymore, stats do. And that's really bad for the games overall feeling. I will digress to raid trinkets SOMEWHAT however, as these do kind've keep their meaning because of their unique usage, but still incomparable to a vanilla BIS piece, such as Ashkandi, Thunderfury, Plaguebearers, etc.
dude you NEVER needed fire resistance fore baron geddon wtf! the ONLY fights you need any FR whatsoever is ONLY on the tanks, and only on ragnaros, and firemaw
I remember as a pally in Vanilla I used the two handed Axe from Scarlet Monastery it was level 30, but it had a really good proc chance to do whirlwind after procing with one of my seals, and it ended up being the best Two handed weapon I had for AOE DMG at level 60 to cleave large groups of stuff for farming and other things. It was great. there was also the helm that let you charge like a warrior every 1 min. and that one was super fun in PVP. I loved all the random stuff in Vanilla. you right allot of stuff is two streamline now, the forgot the fun of just random creative item effects. Weapon and gear swapping was so crazy back then I remember on my hunter swapping weapons on the fly was the only way to win in pvp matches.
There’s a reason people are playing classic and tbc on private servers more than any other expansion; I could sit here all day and explain you why but in short....it was just better. Better than WoW today, better than MMO’s are in general today. They don’t even care about the lesser graphical fidelity, it doesn’t matter, from a design standpoint, Vanilla and TBC was a better game, and hope the success of upcoming WoW Classic inspires publishers to invest in games with this design philosophy.
There's a reason people are living Amish in Utah communities more than any other century; I could sit here all day and explain you why but in short....It is just better. Better than technology today, better than the world is in general today. They don't even care about not having medicine or internet, it doesn't matter, from a design standpoint, Amish is a better society, and hope the success of their population boom inspires governments to invest in a global EMP with this design philosophy.
@@noodlespoo not really a fair comparison in my opinion
@@noodlespoo The Amish don't live in Utah.
@@noodlespoo
Your comparison is extremely shitty. You can choose which game you want to play in your spare time, meanwhile it's extremely difficult to move out of your country to start a new life.
make a good game?
in 2019?
HAHAHAHA where have you been? under a rock I believe. it's 2019 dude, its all about money, if it ain't making money don't bother
Great chill video with some points og views i have NOT seen in other videos.
Items are so Magical in vanilla and thats why it was so good.
What I remember most from vanilla wow was having to eat or drink every handful of kills because it took so much to kill stuff. I remember most gear drops being utter trash forcing me to trawl the auction house every couple levels for upgrades because my mage isnt going to last long in str/spi gear that im looting from mobs. I remember being in a raid guild and suddenly having my badass enhance shaman that could literally beat warriors to death in melee combat (Go go twig of the world tree windfury procs!) suddenly shoved into a healbot spec because thats what raid gear was, one spec only. One role only, and you dont get to choose that role or build, the devs did.
Vanilla had some great stuff in it, I wont deny. Some of the items you mentioned made things interesting and fun. But that doesnt mean you should ignore all the bad that was a part of it too.
I had Hand of Edward the Odd on my Troll Shaman in vanilla. Looted it off of trash in Zul'gurub and spent half my DKP to get it. Completely changed my playstyle, made me a wrecking ball in PVP. Couldn't agree more.
really loved the point you made about how a lot of the people that played classic wow also thought about it in the spare time... this made the game so much bigger... it wasnt just playing the game it involved your life lol.... maby i am addicted... humm
You deserve way more subs dude, honestly.
You're one of the best and most professional vanilla wow content creators on youtube.
Amen, and add on top of that the countless buffs/items you could find in the world like crystal basilisk spine off the level 35 basilisks in STV which gives you a +10 frost and shadow resist buff, useful in Naxx.
Hi Tip, Never done this before but wanted to thank you for these videos. You're the only channel for which I'm currently eagerly awaiting the next video, every time. They're very entertaining, you're a great talker, and your videos are to the point and devoid of clickbait, screaming, and other such goodness most youtube is now plagued by. :D
Will definitely be subbing to your channel once you start streaming, whether I manage to watch or not. Cheers.
Sam Gijsen 100% agree great channel, I’m always looking forward to the next video
Back in the day, everyone recommended pure AGI on hunters, since every point of agi increased your damage and your crit. But after getting a bunch of non-ideal drops, I came up with my own pure crit build, and it ended up working great and was equal or better than the rest of the hunters in my raid guild. There doesn't seem to be anything like that today, you either build what icy veins tells you to do or you get inferior dps. The randomness of the drops and lack of customizeability make everyone the same.
100% agree with this video, I'm playing vanilla on private servers and can't decide when I should stop stacking hit as a rogue.. It's awesome
kollib NEVER stop stacking hit
Shaiden Blue at some point crit must be better though. I have 5% hit from talents and 8% hit from gear, and after I got this much hit I started to try and get more crit
I think dual wield miss chance is like 26%. In pve, you want as much as possible. Pvp you only need 5%
As a rogue, if it's for PvE, you should aim for 8% hit. That's the point where abilities like sinister strike or backstab stop missing on bosses. After that, crit is a better stat then hit as long as it doesn't exceed the crit cap.
everyone arguing that legion / bfa has better itemization than vanilla needs to read THIS part of this comment thread. This is exactly what the hell tips is talking about. do you BFA/Legion CUCKS really think that in 2032 you will still be discussing legion / bfa itemization? obviously not and THAT is why classic will ALWAYS be superior in every way shape and form.
See, this is a video that interests me a bit because I'm VERY curious to see how the team that will run maintenance on Classic will act when they see certain things be pulled off in Classic. When you gave your analogy of SID in the start, that's an interesting example of emergent gameplay, but at the same time, so was the old Reckoning bomb. It was a clever use of a talent and build that the old system allowed yet was so potent that a change had to be made.
The thing about the old system was that, while it allowed for creativity, some of the outcomes could be considered outright broken. That's where I would have to go back to what OneAzerothTV's comment thread on this video. Looking back, I really can't look at vanilla's content and see that it went through enough quality assurance. It's interesting to me, because from your perspective, this is good game design, to allow players the freedom to create incredibly crazy combos, and while on paper that may sound good, some others could read that an item/armor combination could come off as insanely broken (Such as the reckoning thing I mentioned prior).
I feel what we have now, while more streamline, allows for less confusion. It's not some bland cookie-cutter system like people will like to say it is. As a frost mage, I swap through my talents all the time just to mix up gameplay and maximize my performance. Sometimes I want more AOE focused DPS talents depending on my weekly keystone affixes. Sometimes a raid encounter makes it more viable to keep my water elemental around. I would much rather the system have a level of elegance where it comes down to my choice of talents rather than my choice of gear.
Maybe it's because I wasn't as old as other players were during vanilla, but looking back at it, most specs just felt ineffective, and to say that they -could- be effective if you just had an obscure set of gear to me doesn't seem like the right solution.
It will be interesting to see what changes will be made when Classic comes out. I have a strong feeling that the more of these creative/broken combinations are discovered, the more the nerfs will fly in. I have a lot of doubts that Vanilla will be the pristine, untouched gem older players think it will be.
Hey Tip. Your videos are getting really improved qualitywise. Enjoyed
I gave up full bloodfang for PVP 2 piece & cadaver two piece & used 2 fast swords mirah's song & something else on a combat rogue, add in the trinket from BRDs emperor that proc'd an extra attack & I went from fair to middlin' dps to top of the charts
Video makes some interesting points, as do the comments. Notably, there were quite a lot of items with unusual or flat out useless stats in relation to the rest of the stats i.e. spirit on agi gear, strength on spirit gear. But what made gearing more fun in vanilla was that it wasn't an automated process. You didn't just right-click the boss and get an item which is either better or worse than what you currently have. You'd loot a boss and something would drop. Is it good? Do I need it? Who knows, go figure it out. Gearing nowadays is just a matter of looting something and seeing if the numbers are higher. You can guarantee that it's 'good' for you because Blizzard only drop you items which are of use.
That, and the game forced you to engage with the theme of the raid. You needed fire resist for Molten Core, for example. It really added something to the 'fantasy epic' feel of the game, along with attunements.
Awesome video, finaly someone said what i am thinking about items in vanila
One day I want to make a melee warlock with all the + Agility and + Strength gear (cloth) I can find and use a Firestone. Poor Firestone. whole legions of warlocks have leveled to 60 without ever casting a single Firestone. I bet most warlocks don;t even know what it does.
Firestone
Binds when picked up
Unique
Held In Off-Hand
Item level 36
Equip: Enchants the main hand weapon with fire, granting each attack a chance to deal 40 to 61 additional fire damage.
Equip: Increases damage done by Fire spells and effects by up to 14.
I tried building a Fire warlock like this on Nostalrius. Made myself the Phoenix gear (+fire damage) in the 20s moving onto more +spdmg gear as I could, and used a Firestone/Searing Golden Blade dagger (blacksmithing friend) for levelling.
Sadly the warlock's fire skills scale very poorly with +fire damage compared to shadow, and +stam/int is just too good to pass up on such a tanky lifestealing caster.
However, since so much lock damage comes from DoTs, there's plenty of time to get autoattacks in. A good dagger + firestone procs was occasionally better than wand DPS - but you need to fork out gold or piss off some rogues and roll on a good one. Gearing for +str/agi would probably yield better results in this area.
Not optimal, but still viable for levelling - warlocks are a very forgiving class to level anyway. I'd definitely give the warlock melee a miss in PvP, though, other than as a humiliating finisher move.
Shûl Nak nice! The fire build works fine on Kronos. But I put it to the max, next to the gear you mentioned I also used 'of fiery wrath' in every possible slot and upgrading them as often as possible. Stamina enchants to compensate a bit. Full destruction talents. Never cast shadow bolt. It was fun and effective from lvl 20-50 At 50 I switch to shadow and a 'normal' build
And that is what is missing from wow, alternate ways to play a spec. I feel that the streamlined, one spec one usable rotation is making WoW feel stagnant. The approach from Blizz telling you what your class fantasy is, is the wrong way of going about it. I feel that the player should be able to determine play style not the xpack. The closest thing that they had to that old system, for me, was the glyph system and reforging.
there were no alternate ways to play a spec, there were subpar ways and the best way... Just as it is now. A top tier player in legion switches gear and talents for each encounter and makes sure to stay on top, just as people did back then.
Nostalgia is going to hit hard for alot of people when Classic finally launches, its a fun era of WoW and I will greatly enjoy it, but by no means is it some sort of promised land.
You're probably talking pve. In pvp there was MULTIPLE ways to spec and be viable and good.
Great point, and one I haven't heard mentioned yet.
well said mate like for example a fury warr that use silent fang swap until proc vs casters then change to normal mainhand tidal charm for pvp is really awesome
The nice thing about vanilla items was: a single item can make your spec viable, but items where not the be all end all of all things.
The mentioned Helmet gave Cats a viable raidspot.
Nightfall gave Enhancers and Rets a (somewhat) viable slot in a raid.
The Warden Staff, Ironbark Staff and Grand Marshall staff gave Tank druid a viable weapon.
Heck: The Ironbark Staff gave tank-WARLOCKS a viable weapon (Serriously: Try it. The Demo tree is nearly formfit for a Pet-Tank spec and enough points for searing pain. Not raid-viable but fun non-the-less)
You make your spec viable by using select items, but you have enough freedom for something else to fit the role.
I for one will play Warlock in Classic WOW. And I WILL level as a tank.
Not only that: I will make it work. Not as good as a warri or druid, but I will make it work!
Just found your channel. Great discussion and you got a new subscriber, bud!
My 2 handed fury warrior (as in a single 2h weapon) wore mail, leather and plate. The DPS was sick, but getting to that point was painful.
I loved being able to have a ranged weapon as a rogue. Used to do world pvp and get rooted, I would bust out my crossbow and surprise people.
Yep. That 80 damage shot was sure going to make the difference. Oh wait, they have 3920 HP left? Womp womp.
more of these please
I honestly really liked not being forced to wear a certain armour type in wow. I miss the more complicated talent trer too. Damn I miss all of that :( but I personally prefered wotlk and early cata, I actually knew what to do then
As on of those theory crafters in vanilla I can fully agree with your vid - it took weeks of testing, tweaking, raiding and by the end of vanilla I still couldn't comfortably state what was BiS for Rogues - come TBC and onwards it became a lot easier to manager EP resulting in BiS lists, guides and rotations easily updated as patches and content rolled on, and keep EJ updated was a very streamlined process.I do miss WoW and I have high hopes for classic, but I am glad I quit when I did.
Great video and topic! I couldn't agree more!
If i may give you a piece of advice: Remember to credit the people whos videos you use. This helps with any misunderstandings and they do deserve it :)
Keep it up mate!
Cheers mate :) I just wanted to spare you from any potential unpleasant encounter with youtube or another youtuber. Tho' most of these people are probably cool with it!
Looking forward to more content!
Executus Gaming publicly threaten youtubers is surely going to get you subs. :')
didnt steal a video, used clips from your videos. and fool why are you so mad about it.
probably talking about the child right below this comment huh?
what a salty boy
This is a great video, the only thing is I'd prefer you to be more descirptive of the story behind Skull of Impending Doom. Everyone on private servers today knows what it is but it was virtually unknown back in the day. Random epic items like Taran Icebreaker were far more well-known than the skull, which many people probably vendor-ed within minutes.
buddy sit down and let a real hero tell you a story.... of the tale of the orb of zin-malor.....
Nailed it! Nice job.
they call it "fixed", I call it "removed".
I loved it how every rare and epic and even some greens had their own item identity.
I still remember when I was playing on my Paladin and a green sword dropped with bonus attack power VS beasts. So I walked my a$$ to the auction house and bought the enchant of lesser beast slaying and of boy was that amazing!
I was too young when vanilla was live to do crazy things like this so it was on a private server, but doesn't really matter.
Just the fact that green items that drop randomly can lead to such excitement makes the game amazing.
These days there are literally no drops that actually excite me. It's always just a tiny boost in DPS.
I remember running Scholomance over and over because Rattlegore was a stingy bastard with those blue Rogue boots. Never did get those boots, hell I even went back during Lich King just to get them and he still didn't drop them.
Also..Old School Scholomance and Stratholme (the vanilla release versions) was heroic difficulty before there ever was even the concept of heroic dungeons. It would take you hours to run Scholo or Strat and you needed a tight crew to run it in a 5 man. You could raid them in a 10man but you couldn't complete quests in Raid unless it was specifically a raid instance, like MC. Ah the good old days...
The customization in Vanilla was second to none; from talents to itemization, nothing was "right" or "wrong" back in the day.
Its pretty hilarious actually thats also how the notorious legends of archetypical hunters clicking need on everything began. I mean they're not completely off in upgrading with cloth and staffs.. Haha.
I had this just recently when I leveld a shaman with 1h + shield.
In SFK I rolled on the leather stam/agi shoulders and the cloak.
But at Arugal I rolled on the robe. Man, they were pissed. But it was absolutely great gear for my shaman! +Agi/Int/Spirit. All stats that are really good at lowlevel shaman leveling where you restrict the fights against mobs 1on1. You cast maybe 2 or 3 spells and then wait for the mana reg to kick in.
100% agree! I was a mage office in my raiding guild and we had HEATED exchanges on the benefits of certain items/stats over others to maximize output. We still had those conversations in BC, though less frequently. And they all went away after that.
Many years have passed and I'm still thinking which class to roll this time :)
I love the way classes work too. I bought the wolfsheads helm for my druid but now I don't know if going for improved shapeshift or +20 str is more worth it, from lvl 40.
You got me thinking.... back in vanilla, we was all nubs and didnt really understand the game fully. I learned about it from swifty way back when. Not once can i recall dueling or pvping someone with this item, and i think thats largely because anyone who got this item vendored it or dissed not knowing its potential. When classic hits, i can see this being much more abused this time round.
Ive always felt that itemization was a huge contribution to the class imbalance problems in Vanilla, Druids for example had to use a level 43 BoE staff to tank because there was simply nothing else. The reason Druids couldnt main tank a raid was that they couldnt achieve the defense cap so would be randomly critted every now and then, i am certain that improved itemization would have made many more builds viable without changing the game mechanics or skill trees at all.
yeah, even while certain stats aren't great at max level, for leveling, they actually really come in handy. get a few points of spirit on a low level warrior and you eliminate the need for eating/bandaging between mobs. it's like every time you logged in you had your own mini-theorycrafting on what you wanted to do. about to pull an elite, or a big group of mobs, change your gear to suite the encounter
SUBBBED! This I agree 10000xxtimes! I've been telling people that this is something they should have never gotten away from.
Fantastic video mate.
Where have you been all my 0ver 10 years of WoW scepticism. I could talk with you all day about wow philosophy.
Totally agree with this video. Remember 'expertise'? Still get a headache thinking does 305 in axes means I'm hitting like a lvl 61? How does that affect Hit? On my off-hand whites? Slow or fast in which hand? Asssh itemization was a sad obsession for many years. And to appreciate the good stuff you have to have the junk in the game as well. +Str on cloth, why not?
I liked Vanilla (and before Cata) stats and itemisation. An item with both Int and Agi isn't badly stat'ed to me, it simply has one set of good stats and then something that might be of benefit in addition - it wasn't until near TBC times that it became the norm that they all should be "good". Spirit really is good while leveling; I had a separate spirit set for my rogue and generally had very little downtime for eating and bandaging thanks to stealth and quick gearswaps. Str and Agi having different weights as to how good they were for different classes made items with both to be good for a whole lot of players. The biggest complaint I can muster is how melee and spell crit were different beasts altogether and how that (and other derived stats) didn't show easily in the character window.
I agree with the premise, that classic itemization was a great part of the game, but some of the points made in the video were not only wrong, but I would argue that they are THE OPPOSITE of the actual situation.
The main problem was the point about theorycrafting being complicated. It is actually quite the opposite, and THAT is what I like about classic itemization. In classic, you know EXACTLY what you're getting. There are many universal "laws" of stats in classic WoW: the most notable of which being 14 AP = 1 weapon DPS. This is an ABSOLUTE LAW in classic. You KNOW that when you equip an item with 7 str as a warrior, you're getting 1 dps. You're getting [Weapon Speed] damage per autoattack, and a value based on weapon type normalization for your specials. You know that when you get +10 spell damage, you are getting [cast time/3.5] * 10 damage on your spells.
Frankly, the theorycrafting of classic is very simple. It can basically be done entirely on your own in an excel spreadsheet. And that's great. You shouldn't have to rely on a goddamn supercomputer running 10,000 iterations of your action-bar-whack-a-mole 20-button modern-wow PVE "rotation" to determine how to squeeze an extra 0.1% dps out of your spec by choosing the correct secondary stat. That is not fun nor is it engaging. At the same time, due to the widely varied gear of classic, there are many different options for you to evaluate depending on your situation.
I also think you briefly, but insufficiently, touched on one of my favorite aspects of the supposedly-"bad" itemization: it brings the world to life by taking the control away from players. These items weren't DESIGNED FOR YOU, they are just pieces of gear that these enemies or raid bosses dropped. It makes the items feel more like they are part of the world. The way they drop isn't always predictable or linear: some very niche items drop from raids, while some very amazing pieces drop from dungeons. It adds CHARACTER to the gear AND to the enemies that drop them. I know by heart the stats of almost every notable level 60 item, because they're all unique. They aren't just a predictable mathematical derivation of their item level.
The best line of this video, which I agree 100% with: "The answer to almost every gear related question is: 'It depends'". THAT is why it is great. Different gear serves different purposes.
You're so goddamn right.
@Green Pulsar
If, for whatever reason, you enjoy programming simulations, it's because you enjoy programming simulations, not because the game's gear is well-designed. Modern wow gear is designed with such a rigidly-structured system, combined with the fact that gear is so abundant, there are no choices for the player to make any more outside of which legion-daries they want to use.
Every piece of gear of a given ilvl has the same stamina, same main-stat (all of which are now literally the same thing with a different name) and the same amount of total secondary stats. The only "choice" you make it which secondary stat to stack, which you usually need to run through somebody else's simulations to figure out, because the stats themselves are so unintuitive. And then top top it off, regardless of how you stack secondary stats, most specs don't feel any different than if you had stacked a completely different stat.
You never have to choose between a glass-cannon high-dps piece of gear (like Bloodvine) and an all-rounder piece of gear (like most tier 2). There are no choices to be made any more, only math equations to run, and they don't even affect the way you play.
main thing I didn't like was using cloth on my druid instead of leather when healing, but other than that it was fun
edit: also some peeps looked like clowns lol
""The answer to almost every gear related question is: 'It depends'". THAT is why it is great. Different gear serves different purposes."
That's still true today, you don't use the same gear for every content, heck you don't even use the same gear for every boss fight in a single raid.
i quote "there are no choices for the player to make any more outside of which legion-daries they want to use." thats why preach just uploaded a video yesterday about having 3 sets of items for m+... do you even follow?
totally agree. I returned recently. Last I played before was WOTLK. I am now up to level 101 in Legion, and I find the whole game has been so streamlined, in particular the itemisation and rewards, that the game is nothing more than a follow the bread crumbs to max level mindless exercise.
As usual great vid. Itemization in vanilla is one of the things that definitely contributed to theorycrafting, which just doesn't exist like it used too
i love your videos. pls continue the good work
Great video, really wanna play vanilla!
I remember sneaking into capitals to hit players with my mind control cap, sending them after the faction generals to be one or two shotted... engineering was a literal blast back then, and the gadgets counted as actual gear.
Imo i think the best kind of itemization would be items with 100% niche, and unconventional stats, what i mean is no item should have any stats that flat out increase your damage/healing/durability more than others, the items strengths would be entirely based on the situation.
An example is that now we have a +100 str axe VS a +90 str +20 haste axe, the different stats might make the choice very minorly situational (one is optimal for AOE, the other single target) but the bottom line is both offer a flat damage increase based on stats, what i love is when the options are way more unconventional, like having a choice between the old vanilla weapons; Nightfall, Chance on hit: Spell damage taken by target increased by 15% for 5 sec VS Dragon's Call, Calls forth an Emerald Dragon Whelp to protect you in battle for a short period of time OR Runeblade of Baron Rivendare, Increases Movement speed by 10%, and regenerates 32 health every 5 sec..
All of those items introduce damage increase in a unconventional way (and more importantly, offer things other than a boring output increase, they offer EXPERIENCES!), but in a way more interesting way (imo) and gives them way more FLAVOR.
TLDR: Yeah i like getting 10+ more str on my weapon, but i rather get interesting flavor mechanics.
if i remember corectly, wasnt beastslaying the first enchant that gave your weapons a glow? so always go with the beastslaying! :D Great vid, you got a new sub!
Aah, yes. The good old Str Agi cloth pieces.
Great vid.... never popped up before... odd since u have quite a bit of content, anyhow! SUBBED!!!
thinking good point we really miss that in every next wow but 60-70 % of items in Vanilla were very bad. Cloth with agility , 2 hands with spirit , off-hand sword with defense rate and many many more. Imagine if we have Vanilla 2.0 that have RDF , rework on PvE and PvP sets , rework on most of the specs to make them more useful , model rework and etc the game will be so good that not only gonna kill BFA and Legion but tons of well pop RPGs out there.
So true. Was so fun to do all that thinking.
Itemization is one of the major reasons (though it's easy to forget it as a point) that I like vanilla over live. The only problem is that the game has been so long in existence, as you say, so there are BiS lists, and everyone that plays the game is sticking to those lists, more or less. I've played on Kronos, and boy was the attitude during endgame terrible. Not having Dal'Rend and being a dagger rogue instead of a combat rogue was enough to not being invited to my supposedly casual guild's MC raids. Using the Lobotomizer was enough to have me kicked, even though it probably just affected someones Deep Wounds or poison or Serpent Sting. Not grinding for Truestrike Shoulders would of course make me a noob. That isn't a fun climate. WoW vanilla was fun because of the easygoing and "let's learn together" atmosphere, even though there did exist try-hard guilds and even I became part of one eventually, progressing through AQ. Vanilla was also about using Dungeon Set 0 as a healing shaman, even though it blows for any kind of play, because it was the cool set to have and everyone believed the Dungeon Sets to be BiS. I fear that that time will never come back, but I will still play Classic, because also the new atmosphere is enjoyable when the game is as good as it is.
I am so looking forward to vanilla wow
It made the world seem real; couldn't agree more.
you guys should love ragnarok online. Insane (and interesting) procs all over the place
not to mention items had unique appearances not just 4 different recolours of the same weapon
Damn you tips, you always make me feel old :'(
Great video, i think you got it exactly right. Earned my sub :)
the itemisation in vanilla was fken chaotic lol, shit was so unpredictable. i remember enjoying the fk out of wotlk itemisation. dw hunter with 35+ int ench on both weps was op as fkkkk lel, maxed haste hunter as well lellllll
Spot on! There are many good things about current wow, but many bad things as well. The characters now - although graphically enhanced - are too disney looking and child friendly. The worst part is that it has become too perfectionistic with everything being a bit too stale and transparent. I think it would be great if Blizzard changed their mindset and brought back some of the randomness, chaos and partly imperfect elements from vanilla. It would indeed make the world feel more alive, mystical and vast. I don't think it would hurt the game and many people would cherish it, but maybe Blizz are too afraid of taking such chanses.
this is a huge part of game design that blizzard completely overlooks. you barely got into it, but i'm glad you pointed it out. i feel like BfA people watching this probably don't realize the level of theorycrafting that has yet to happen. yes it's hard to balance, but balance isn't what makes a game fun, because perfect balance means everything is the same
I love this and I have to say I'm officially excited for WoW Classic, despite the nay-sayers, and it's things like this that do it. No, I don't care about the grind. My favorite genre of video game is JRPG, you think I care about grind? No I don't care about being poor, or being in BiS gear. I mean I do care about those things but I'd prefer to be in a world where not everyone is going to have those opportunities unless they grab them by the balls and rip them from the game.
That being said I'd like to talk about my favorite game of all time, and WoW's hidden shadow, FFXI. FFXI itemization took this concept, whipcracked it, and made it go sit in the corner. Not only was FFXI's itemization a pool of potential, but the ability to swap gear in the middle of battle made so many interesting choices for the player. A pair of level 7 boots obtained from a "notorious monster" (bascially WoW Rare spawns) were BiS for a long time, and competative at level cap, simple because of the raw stat bonuses they provided that were hard to come by anywhere else. A piece may have a lot of accuracy on it, and then another piece may have a lot of STR. Which piece was better was never the question, it was WHEN was each piece better? You would do auto-attacks and accumulate TP (basically Warrior Rage?) and then when it was time to spend the TP on your big move, you'd swap into the STR gear and unleash it for huge spike damage.
FFXI still has this going for it today. What a marvel of a game. I will be playing WoW classic for sure, but if by the grace of God an FFXI classic were ever released I encourage anyone to give it a chance. I won't ever say it was a better experience than WoW classic but from what I have seen (a lot) and understand about it, FFXI was that but to the next extreme and the game was that much more satisfying because of it.
Should do a more in depth video about those unique weapons and armors.
That moment when you use your trinket sap macro that also uses free action potion.... No kidney shots for you!
1:25 what about the x-52 rocket helmet that sends you flying up high and takes 50% of your health.
I know... it was released in TBC but still fun stuff from Vanilla style items.
I remember when I played my blue geared survival hunter and outclassing a full epic hunter in damage. He realized that the set up of your gear and how you play is way more important than going full purple with the standard build.
Bullshit. Survival didn't buff damage at all--you're claiming your blue bow had more DPS than an epic bow, which is provably false.
beautiful video man
Now im hyped for vanilla again :D
Iron Foe + Hand of Justice... best combo ever
Well, now we have programms calculating dps for us, I bet we can Sim our vanilla gear when it comes out
Wolf's head helm was crafted, not looted.
People know way more about the game and how stats work in legion/bfa. If vanilla was a new expansion today, the items would be figured out in the same time as legion thanks to being able to sim huge amounts of sets very quickly and compare damage.
vanilla has ZERO target dummys, so how are you gonna simulate thousands of tries?
People done sim on target dummies, lol they take the values of what abilities do in game and simulate it over thousands of attempts through an application called simcraft. I'm sure there will be something similar in vanilla. You don't need to hit stuff in game to be able to sim your character.
theres too many other outside factors, raid composition, available cooldowns, consumable useage, it might be easy on like mage / warlock where the rotation is simple, but something with more decision making like warrior its not gonna work there are far too many x-factors. also all this theorycrafting for what, PVE? simulations are irrelevant in PVP applications, and in vanilla wow PVE is only like MAYBE at maximum 20% of the games content. really its more like 5%. you spend so little time in actual raids, example first tier of content there is only MC and Ony, you can clear MC in 40 minutes and within an hour and a half total time you can clear mc, travel to dustwallow and kill onyxia and an hour and a half isnt even a tier 1 guild clear time for both raids and travel time in between it is a slow time for noobs.
Also there is WAY more variance between the top and bottom guilds of classic wow, the TOP guilds can clear MC in LITERALLY less than 20 minutes, full clear all bosses down in relevant raid gear, not raiding 2-3 tiers under. literally in pre-bwl gear. while other pre-bwl guilds were still taking 2+ hours, sometimes even 3 hours with the casual guilds. the tryhardness of your raid totally varies from guild or guild, and it EXTREMELY Affects how you play and what spec / itemisation you use. example in MOST guilds the main tank is a PROTECTION warrior, yeah well in the very very best guilds the MAIN TANK, plays FURY because the healers are so good they can run less than everyone else and the tank still lives even tho he is dual weilding no shield and in berserker stance sometimes. the tanks do this in amazing guilds because the damage dealers put out so much damage they can easily pull threat off a prot warrior at any time, but a fury warrior dual weilding with thunderfury will hold aggro but you need incredible healers and a raid of players who can successfully navigate mechanics so teh healers dont have to raidheal anywhere near as much as a casual guild.
I don't think you get my point, there will still be shit players. There are shit players in the retail game, but the high end stuff would get figured out really fast. And yes I'm obviously talking about simming PvE, simming PvP doesn't make any sense. All I'm saying is that the rotations of every class and best gear would be figured out quickly. I never said anything about anyone being able to do the things that people figure out, but I'm saying that the information would be out there in weeks or a month of classic release if it came out today as a new expansion.
Vanilla itemization was the best. I remember tanking lvl60 dungeons with the Silent Fang. Silencing a caster mob meant I could pull it back to a safer place. It was a lot of fun =)
To you guys who think gearing is complicated now. Gearing for pvp in legion was 100% braindead, it could say strength and agility and it still wouldnt matter for a mage.
This is the reason why i kept to World PvP in legion, i had to pick items that made sense.
lesser beastslaying makes you a true menace in STV
I miss chance on hit weapons.
Stepping away from your BiS or class sets and instead stacking one particular stat can lead to SCARY results. Imagine yourself as a mage who can take down warriors easily and you see a crit-stacked one coming towards you in AB with Conqueror's Spaulders and the Ashkandi and NO pocket healer. You think to yourself, "This guy is WAY too confident! I gotta GTFO!"
Oh, by the way: Double Trinket Mages FOREVER!!!!!
Awesome video