PEOPLE ARE GETTING KILLED, Kinetic vs Tow Recovery what’s the difference?
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2023
- Why are people getting killed? Kinetic vs Tow Recovery what’s the difference?
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These educational videos are so important for new, or even old-school 4WDers. So many people assume that 'snatching' a vehicle is the only way to pull a vehicle out of a situation...
Thanks and yes I agree
it is, 99% of the time..join a 4x4 club,,with trainers, registered, dtu.. anyone, going ''bush'', camping, should do a 1 month course,,so they dont fkn die..u.s vids are a lot more informative,,seeing everything we have,,comes from there,,eventually..
My parents owned a towing and automotive repair shop and I grew up in a tow truck as a kid. They moved to agricultural and to this day we are still pulling stuff out of mud and holes. Regardless, your videos are always great to watch to keep reminding all of us of the dangers of doing it wrong! Thanks.
I’ve often thought I’d enjoy that type of work. Well except the 2am mid winter call out. That would suck.
@@MadMatt4WD PLUS. if we had real,,4x4 laws here not these lame bs cant do anything to your vehicle,, MORE PEOPLE WOULDNT DIE.. ROLL OVER, GET BOGGED. BREAK SHT..
@@MadMatt4WD a ''metric ton'', strap,,has a rated breaking strain 4 times the work limit.. so, a 1.5t strap is good for a 5t vehicle,,max..eh..as to using the ''kenetic '' straps,, allways use them, as its less damage strain on the vehicle.. no one uses static straps.. unless winching.. that b/bar,, that ''come off'',, who,,fitted it, the dumb driver.?.if not,,id be suing arb..
@@MadMatt4WD 5mph..is not,,enough energy for a recovery.. do some home work..
@@MadMatt4WD you FAILED to mention,,the camera man, should of been at least 3 times the distance from the recovery that the rope length is.. try again..he is now dead, .plus, no one ever mentions the tow hitch pin shear force..just the ''rated'', shackles.. &, the transport tie downs,,are not rated. you need dedicated recovery points.
I could not tackle all things to do with 4x4 recovery methods so check out this video for more info - AVOID making some BIG MISTAKES during a 4x4 recovery! czcams.com/video/FkJBaKUNPwE/video.html
Very well explained, and nicely filmed and presented. Thanks for giving us this valuable safety information! I'm learning a lot going through your many videos...
Glad it was helpful!
Good on you Matt done it again 10/10 hope everyone takes it in
Thanks kindly
he wasnt 100% correct..
Loving these videos Matt. Honestly makes me think back to when I first got into 4wding and how many mistakes I made and mistakes I've seen others make. I have come to see a simple tow recovery is all you normally need and that big full powered snatch recovery not so much.
Thanks mate. I also think back to my mistakes and what I got away with. We all have to learn at some point.
@@MadMatt4WD Very true mate and videos like this help people to realise their mistakes.
Thanks Matt. Very informative video and educational. Learnt a lot from it.
Glad it was helpful!
Mate, this is awesome. Keep spreading the proper education.
I'm still seeing people on the tracks taking too much of a run-up when doing a kinetic recovery, connecting to the tow ball, etc.
Thanks, will do!
This is what I needed to stay safe in sometimes stressful situation. Thanks mad Matt
My Pleasure
Very informative video with a great safety message. Off-roading has inherent risk and knowledge is the most important safety tool there is. Good stuff...keep them coming!
Absolutely!
There’s a ton of people around here that need to see this. Every time someone gets stuck they start by pulling on a chain and when that doesn’t work it turns into jerking on it. Then something breaks and the chain goes in the radiator so I get called to winch them out and haul their destroyed vehicle home. Nicely done vid as usual Matt
I can’t imagine how discouraging it must be for you seeing the same ignorance again and again.
@@MadMatt4WD I don’t let it bother me. It was pretty surprising to begin with but I don’t worry about it anymore. People that don’t listen I won’t tell but people that ask I try to teach. Especially teenagers who just started driving
Well done and thank you for doing what you can.
That was great Matt! Very informative. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Matt great video. It is always good to get a refresher
It sure is! And thanks
Great stuff Matt..... 👍👍
Lake Havasu 🌞 Az USA
Thank Matt that was a very informative video. Definitely do more like them. I do like your HOR concept too.
Thanks! Will do!
@@MadMatt4WD Your educational videos are very informative.
Great video! This shows why you should practice these skills in a controlled environment with your 4x4 buddies, before finding yourself or your buddy genuinely stuck.
Sometimes people just try to fix the problem without taking a moment to plan out the recovery. Rushing puts you life and rig at risk.
This video also illustrates some of the pitfalls of having a random person help recover you. Ideally, one of your buddies who you know the skill level well give you a tug. You don't know if there are competent and if they are going to give it too much throttle.
Thanks Matt, another good, no BS vid 👍
Glad you enjoyed it
Hey Matt this has been very helpful I haven't been on the tracks for a while as I've been raising a family, BUT I'm always learn new this and it doesn't hurt to take a refresher course or even one of your videos like this
Thanks mate. I’m glad I can help. Make sure the kids grow up camping ay.
I'll do my best too thank you
Love your content mate, always so well explained as i was thinking wtf at first ahah😊
Thanks mate. I’m glad it’s helpful
Thanks, Matt. You have an impressive ability to explain things thoroughly and clearly. Re the other comment about winch recoveries, am I right in saying that a winch recovery is regarded as safer than a kinetic recovery, but less safe than a tow recovery (in the hierarchy of recovery)?
Thank you. Yes you’re correct re: winching vs Kinetic recovery. I expand on the more in this video - AVOID making some BIG MISTAKES during a 4x4 recovery! czcams.com/video/FkJBaKUNPwE/video.html
It's a great video Matt. Having looked back, sometimes unknowingly I participated in kinetic recoveries. Armed with this knowledge, it allows me to go wheeling a lot safer. Appreciate the videos Matt.
I’m glad I could help
Great video mate very informative 👍
Glad you enjoyed it
great information, Thanks!
Our pleasure!
Matt again a great video of "how to" and "how not to" do a recovery!
I have seen and know a lot of offroad recovery through your videos and the videos from Trailmater, Matt's Off Road Recovery, Ronny Dahl and some german Offroad-YT-Channels.
I know i'm not a pro, even not an amteur, i'm just a beginner, because there where only e few recoveries i made, i needed or i saw, but all of the recoveries ended absolutely safe, because it was choosed the right gear, every one knewed what to do, or the recovered person did listen to the correction-commands, so that the recovery ended good for everybody.
This month i saw on YT a reaction video with MORR and Robby Layton, where i knew what the will give as answer for their reaction.
So i say thank you for this new video, because there a lot of new Offroaders out there without the knowledge, in every kind of offroading, who don't want to search old instructionvideos.
In my opinion they will only start for searching them, when they saw a newer video which tells their ego "i have to watch the older videos for a better understanding which gear and technic i should use!".
Greetings from Cologne/Germany
BlackCat
Suzuki Jimny JB74 Owner
Thanks kindly for this comment. And thank you for doing your bit to keep safe. We all have to learn and grow in our skills.
Great video mat thanks
My pleasure!
100 % correct matt good demonstration of energy. I wonder though does a wet strap connetic strap work different to a dry one. Thats thought i have out of this. With the footage i guess some people must thing steel softens a little when wet. Great teaching video.😅
Thanks. For a strap you loose about 10% stretch when wet. I’m not sure for the rope.
great video as always
I appreciate that
Great video.
Another awesome vid Matt
Very informative. They should give this a plug every time a recovery rope or strap is sold.
I’m sure 90% of people don’t know how to do a safe recovery
Well done 👏👏👏 keep up the great work Matt 👍
That would be cool!
Thanks, some handy advice. Kinetic recoveries do worry me a bit regarding equipment failure.
By following these principles you have a good chance
Of all being safe.
Perfect video to show friends why not to floor it/go fast with a non-kinetic rope/chain. Might save some lives.
Very true!
Thanks!
No problem!
Great videos Matt, thanks. One comment: always inspect straps for damage - including the seams.
Great point!
Love u videos Matt !
Thanks mate
Simply it is the old formula E=1/2 x Mass x Velocity ^2 M=kg V=m/s
I’m no mathematician but I’ve been told that’s the formula.
If you say so... 😉
@@MadMatt4WD Just take a look at a 3000kg car moving at only 8kmh and using chains. It's over 300 Tonnes ! A chassis Rail can only take 24 Tonnes and a tow ball fails at 12 Tonnes. So even at 8KMH something HAS TO FAIL.
To calculate the force exerted and the equivalent mass (in kg) when the energy of a 3000 kg mass traveling at 8 km/hr is dissipated in 0.1 seconds, we can use the equation:
Force (F) = Change in Momentum / Time
The initial momentum of the mass is given by:
Initial Momentum (P_initial) = mass * initial velocity
where the mass is 3000 kg and the initial velocity is 8 km/hr.
Converting the initial velocity to m/s:
Initial Velocity (v_initial) = 8 km/hr * (1000 m/km) / (3600 s/hr) = 2.22 m/s (rounded to two decimal places)
Initial Momentum (P_initial) = 3000 kg * 2.22 m/s = 6660 kg·m/s
Since the mass comes to rest, the final momentum (P_final) is zero.
Change in Momentum (ΔP) = P_final - P_initial = 0 - 6660 kg·m/s = -6660 kg·m/s
Now, we can calculate the force exerted:
Force (F) = Change in Momentum / Time = -6660 kg·m/s / 0.1 s = -66600 N
The negative sign indicates that the force is in the opposite direction to the initial motion.
To calculate the equivalent mass, we can use Newton's second law of motion:
Force (F) = mass * acceleration
Rearranging the equation, we have:
mass = Force / acceleration
We know the force (-66600 N) and the acceleration can be calculated using:
acceleration = Change in Velocity / Time
The change in velocity (Δv) can be calculated by converting the initial velocity to meters per second (m/s) and subtracting it from zero.
Initial Velocity (v_initial) = 2.22 m/s (as calculated earlier)
Change in Velocity (Δv) = 0 m/s - 2.22 m/s = -2.22 m/s
Finally, we can calculate the equivalent mass:
mass = Force / acceleration = -66600 N / (-2.22 m/s / 0.1 s) = 300000 kg
Therefore, the force exerted is -66600 Newtons, and the equivalent mass is 300,000 kg. The negative sign indicates the direction of the force opposing the initial motion.
I'm an older boy who is new to 4WD and have only seen recoveries (of either type) done on CZcams. I've learnt some things from this video and others like it.
I had occasion, at one time, to need an extraction from a difficult and muddy situation in which I found myself.
Two young fellas turned up with their fully optioned 4WD's and straight away, with lots of testosterone, bravado and gung-ho, they were going to have me out in a jiffy. One raced off and grabbed his snatch strap in preparation.
It took everything I had to slow them down, calm them down and convince them that we weren't going to do a snatch recovery. I had to talk a bit to convince them that we were going to do a controlled tow-out while I reversed my car out of the gunk. One of the lads had a long solid looking chain which I thought a better option than getting my nice new tow strap covered in mud - he was happy to use it. So, he attached it to my tow ball and the other end to his tow ball. It was here I felt the need to explain the problem/s with that arrangement.
I had a recovery hitch so replaced the tow tongue with that and we found a way of attaching the other end to his tow bar.
The slow and easy pull-out recovery (with me reversing) went beautifully, without incident and we all lived happily ever after.
Thanks to you, Matt and others like you who put this stuff on CZcams - it's quality stuff.
Well done mate. You taught them that day.
Thanks Mad Matt, great vid as always. One thing you did briefly mention but didn't go into further and that was when using a bridle in a kinetic recovery. The snatch strap (elastic) connected to a bridle (non-elastic). What are your thoughts on this?
I think it’s an excellent idea. I had to be careful to not unlock too many other points on kinetic recovery in this video.
About 40 years ago I was a nomitated recovery vehicle for an offroad motor sport event. I was called on to retrieve a bogged vehicle and having recently heard about the snatch method of recovery I tried that as the vehicle was well and truly stuck. Only I didn't know about snatch straps and only had a herc-alloy chain. I thought I had done an easy recovery, when I was barrelling down the paddock, only to fnd the only thing following me was the guys bullbar!!! Very embarrasing and a valuable lesson. I have since down countless recoveries and slow and steady is always the way to go with the right equipment.
40 yrs ago,,no one knew sht about 4x4ing, & nothing was available.. thank the u.s. for all this gear we now have. inc. suspension kits.. u.s. vids,, more informative than this garb.. sounds like he,s talking to a 4 yr old..
Years ago when I worked for Nissan dealership one of our people out 4 wheel driving got bogged ..snatch strap let go and straight through the windscreen hitting him in the forehead ..he was lucky to survive .
Wow. It happens all to often.
Good video, took me about five pulls using a 20 foot All-top kenetic energy strap (I'm sure you're familiar with that name) to pull my neighbors pick up truck off the Ice in his driveway thru 2 feet of snow 6"of fresh snow covering the sheet of ice that was the street using my 2 wheel drive 1995 Ford Ranger mini truck 3,100lbs net weight energy in motion. 2 feet at a time eventually my wheels starts slipping on the ice and I had no further traction. Knowledge is power, as I have said before my friend; there is nothing greater than an idea that's time has come.😊
Well done. Snow and ice recoveries are new to me.
Matt, great video, though you probably also have some offroad snakes that are disguised as an abandoned recovery rope, check for tags so you don't get eaten. I was amazed by the soft shackle failure on Merlin's pull and the damage that even a rope caused at way too high of a speed. I haven't heard it talked about but with my climbing ropes and bull ropes for tree work, I'll toss them in a mesh laundry bag and run them through a wash cycle now and again to keep the grit out of the fibers.
Certainly keeping our gear in good order is important.
Can you talk about the Rope the kinetic rope the toe wrote but what about how do you hook it up two and where do you just rely on the hitch bolt that goes through the hitch or something welded to the frame of the vehicle or the bumper
This is covered in many of my other videos. Watch the recovery playlist.
Back in the 70s we had these beautiful tow ropes,,They came in a secured box,,I bet the box was worth more than the rope 😉 It was about 4 feet long ..You hook it on each vehicle and then one that was free to pull would give it..Well..that bungee core would stratch about 40 feet and both people better be holding on..
Ok never heard of those.
All very clear - thanks Matt.
Its good then that all I have is a kinetic recovery strap - it can be used for both tow and snatch recovery.
Why would anyone bother getting a tow recovery strap or rope when a snatch strap or kinetic recovery rope can be used for both scenarios?
Some people know they’ll never do a kinetic recovery maybe. Some people like to have all the gear.
@@MadMatt4WD Yes, I see. OK, marbles not missing at this end...:)
Mate good stuff, but just interested why no dampener on the snatch strap in your demo? 😮
There’s many reasons the main one is they don’t do anything worthwhile with recovery ropes.
Since you can use the kenetic rope for a tow I would think you should always try this first and move on to kenetic if it doesnt work.
That’s a call to be made with due consideration.
More tag info would be good Matt.
I’m not sure what you mean?
I’d be very interested to see a debate between you and Matt from Matt’s Offroad Recovery about recovery methods and how they’re portrayed in online content. I feel like *he* knows what he’s doing and does it safely enough, but I do worry that there will be people who watch what he does and think they can replicate it without the proper experience and understanding of how much force can be safely used.
Matt and I have done content together and discussed some of this personally.
Back in the 70's we mostly had static chains and cables. If we needed a kinetic retrieval we'd insert a rubber tire (minus rim) in the middle between two chains/cables and attempt the kinetic recovery with the rubber tire giving us the stretch we needed.
I'm not suggesting this nowadays when we have proper kinetric ropes and soft shackle.
Just an historical footnote.
I’ve heard of that method although I’ve never seen it done. I won’t be trying it either.
@@MadMatt4WD It worked in a pinch, especially with a larger stuck truck being recovered by a smaller truck.
Question, Talking about tow straps and rating if I have a 6000lb vehicle and going to recover a vehicle around the same weight 6000lb would a 12,000lb rated strap be adequate for a tow recovery or would it need to be rated higher. Or is the 6,000lb rated tow strap able to do the job
To work out the strap you need to go. Two to three times the weight of the lightest vehicle. So for a 6000lb vehicle you need a strap rated between 12000-18000lbs.
@MadMatt4WD thank you for clarifying I really appreciate it!!
One thing you didn’t mention that I feel would be worth it, Maybe even making a whole video about, is how much force is needed to perform a recovery. If a truck weighs X, and is bogged to the frame, then Y force is needed. I think I remember some formula that takes how much a vehicle is stuck, for example to the rim, to the frame, to the fenders, or the hood. Then the amount of force doubles each level. Something like that. Then you can make an educated decision about how to safely perform the recovery.
There’s so much more to teach on recovery than I can cover in this video. Yes there is a formula for calculating the recovery load.
Guy bought my old k5 got it stuck and used a steel cable for a snatch recovery, the tow hook came loose and went thru the windshield and nearly killed him
Yikes
We use chains all the time to pull triple road trains out of bogs during harvest, 150-200t straps aren’t cheap
I can well imagine. But that’s effectively a tow recovery which would be perfect.
I teach in the UK. I tend to make the maths simple as 1/2 mph is approx metres per sec.
So half the weight times that squared. So twice walking speed gives 9+ tonnes of force for most uk trucks. The. I point out the lack of proper tow points on most trucks or the tow ball (forged not bolted like you Aus/US lot). People then suddenly understand that serious injury or death possible.
Problem is there is always someone saying "just give it a bit of a bump"... 😮
Thanks. So long as people end up with respect for recoveries that’s the what my goal is.
It’s a very sobering thought that two people actually died while out enjoying their vehicle. I honestly wouldn’t have believed it could come to that and a serious lesson has been learnt.
Yeah it’s happening way to often unfortunately.
join a registered 4x4 club with trainers.. we do the strap fail, goes thru corragated iron & the tree.. hundreds,,have died .not 2.. u.s. vids more informative..
@@harrywalker968 I couldn't agree more about joining clubs and or getting training.
how come you did not put a dampener on the strap for the tow or the snatch recovery also you made no comment on recovery points and no menschen of a winch recovery as a option as this is a slow and more controlled way it get the job done I would rather use the winch than any other recovery or am I doing it the wrong way love your work stay safe
You are right that a winch recovery is usually the most controlled and therefore safe option when it's available, but that wasn't the topic of this video.
This was a video about tow recovery versus kinetic recovery. I would wager most of the people trying to do a kinetic recovery with a static strap or a chain probably don't have a winch in the first place, so that's a moot point.
The challenge of this video was not opening all those other important doors. There’s lots to be said on all the points you raised. I agree re the winch.
Thanks Jonathan. Great comment
Mention
I agree with all comments here and a good question. Let's say on slippery clay in western new south wales a recovery was to be performed, there may not be a tree or anchor more a few km
The bogged vehicle will always drag the winching vehicle towards this. Therefore a tow or Connectic recovery is really the only option. Matt showed the correct way here of assessing what's available and how to use the equipment, eg slowly increasing in energy not go flat out first. Hope this helps happy wheeling.
So sad.
Your right on and 5mph max 2 shassis rails and do not snatch conventional cars
if you can't get it out gentle find another way
Excellent video BUT you CAN NOT use kinetic rope more than once before you give it a good rest?????? You are performing two times 4 km/h and again 8 km/h with no rest in between. It is obvious that you are using excellent quality gears and they tolerate it. But out of educational point of view it would be safe to rest your kinetic rope in between.
I agree when it comes to straps but I need to find out about it with ropes. Because they are designed as mooring ropes and don’t get a rest in that environment.
I would say the British Army don't allow kinetic recovery on 'thin-skinned' vehicles
Same for the Australian military I believe.