Govt to reportedly procure 2,500 MW of nuclear energy
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- čas přidán 16. 07. 2024
- Energy and Electricity Minister Kgosientsho Ramokgopa told the 'Sunday Times' that the government is close to procuring 2,500 MW of nuclear power.
South African Nuclear Energy Corporation Chairperson Dave Nicholls, energy expert Mohamed Madhi and activist Peter Becker discuss the matter.
Tune into Newzroom Afrika DStv channel 405 for more.
When somebody says baseload is old fashion and renewable energy alone is the future, that person lives in a absolute idiotic small world.
they are blatantly lying and have ulterior motives like shares in solar and battery companies that are shipping billions of tons of stuff too and fro, that is already almost obsolete.
Peter stays in Cape Town where there’s a nuclear power plant. So, he’s a beneficiary of nuclear yet he’s against it. All power plants we have in SA were not built overnight because that’s the nature of these projects. They’re long-term investments. Renewables alone will never be a solution to our sustainable energy future.
Thank you 👌🏾
SA got only ONE Newclear power plant !!!!
It is an irrelevant argument where he lives. Everyone in CT lives with the fear of a nuclear disaster in the back of their mind. It is exactly that it is a long term investment that is the problem. By then it will be a very expensive solution.
You know I'm not against nuclear if it was a competent government, But in this case, this government is not.
Edit: the good thing is that this will take decades and if the worst happens, it's only delayed because it will either happen or not.
@@matsvineyard7564 Be assured sir, that the likelihood of a nuclear disaster is extremely low due to the robust design of nuclear technology. Additionally, our geographic location minimizes the risk of natural disasters like with Fukushima. It's just a matter of understanding how the technology works instead of feeding into the propaganda. And the proof is in the pudding, Koeberg has been operating safely and reliably giving us the cheapest electricity for 40 years (check the Eskom reports incase you doubt this).
What frustrates Renewable IPPs about nuclear energy is that it can overshadow renewables by ticking all the environmental (clean energy) and socioeconomic (industrialization + employment) boxes, if you look countries with more nuclear in their arsenal tend to need very little renewables. Nuclear is a 60-100 year investment-your grandchildren will still use that same nuclear power plant. In the long term, nuclear is a more stable and sustainable investment for energy provision.
Hypocrisy, when it was Zuma, it was a wrong idea.
Is still zuma"s business
Izifiknamthwala lie always
Whites are claiming to know better
@@user-qu6ec8oy2tlearn for your knowledge and research the facts
Are you talking about umkhonto wesisu? Everything Jacob does is for his stomach. We didn't need and could not afford the 9000MW and the financing structure was going to enslave us to Russia for decades.
Both are needed, both are right! Do both!
The REAL problem with the renewables is the fact that our electrical grid (or any other country's) is made for distribution from a few central places outward and in between.....the thickness of the copper wires will simply not take the load if you try to back-feed the entire grid from a serious solar farm! So grid needs upgrade first and copper is VERY expensive.
What about the environmental impact of renewable sources?
Where are those companies which were opposed to Nuclear, especially those that took the former minister to court.
In that case it wasn't so much of an attitude that we don't need nuclear power at all, but it was at the projected cost and scale of the project that government wanted to launch. I was also 100% against a R200bn procurement program from Russia. We know how government works and how they siphon funds from public projects - so the fear was that the former minister and our former president wanted to push through the nuclear program for personal and party financial gain. Can you imagine how much money the ANC can steal out of a R200bn program? And Russia isn't exactly transparent - how many bribes have they already paid to the ANC to try and push through that project? Point is that it wasn't in the best interest of South Africans.
That said, we do need more nuclear power in South Africa. It has to be proportionate and it has to be cost effective. We have a very well developed nuclear industry locally and I would like to see South Africa rely on the local industry more.
The are doing sustainable options and very successfully at that!.
Thank you Dave, and well done sir👏🏾👍🏾
You can tell that only Mohamed and David are engineers and the other guy is into this topic as a fad. Every time he had something to say he was technically beaten back by David. We need more of this please engineers vs engineers, not BA students operating as 'Advocacy' a fancy term for lobbyist...
@@bvovz 💯 But at the same time, Mohammed is failing to admit the huge limitations of RE and the detrimental impact that will have on a developing African economy. I mean, 25% CF for solar technology, which is highly intermittent, and connecting it to a HV grid designed in the mid 20th century? Very Unethical for an engineer to support just so you can have business as a RE IPP!
Energy activists know to complain all the time with no solution half the times. Do we need reliable electricity source or not?
you write, you can see there is no original thought. He just read reports and most likely advocating for is funders who have massive exposure in RE companies.😂😂
Dave talks the truth
Terra power nuclear power station is being built in Wyoming USA by Bill Gates😂new technologies make nuclear cheaper and safer
What is the operational lifespan of the renewables? The solar panels, wind turbines, batteries etc.
Also how do we dispose of it afterwards
Critical questions
The panels lose efficiency slowly over time. +- 25 years, comparable to nuclear, but needs large amount of land and the addition of new transmission cables by Eskom.
The batteries also lose efficiency over time, but at a much faster rate, +- 10 years. So you are only getting 100% capacity in the first couple of years. After 5 years, half the capacity will be lost. Your cellphone is most likely using the most advanced form of lithium batteries.
Solar is great for rooftops, but not a good alternative to something like nuclear plant, unless you have 2 large dams at different levels, with lots of free land around the dam.
all these "renewables" are short term fixes for a long term requirement, the "activists" business people are aware but while the money flows they fill their coffers.
Not to mention shipping billions of tons of stuff around the world too and fro while it's becoming obsolete.
2 against 1. Thanks Dave ❤
Don’t build for you and I but for the generation to come.
So you don't need nuclear for that ...
@@pennybrown3140 no am saying they must build for the generation to come and not for them,if they had listened to president Zuma,by now this nuclear power should be in use by now
Jay z wanted to build one 10 years back 😂😂
Mkhonto wesisu does not buuild anything that does not goes into his isisu and his cronies that he is now lining up in parliament😂
He wanted tenders.
Mbeki admin had shortlisted two entities. Zuma didn't invent nuclear. 2010 Zuma collapsed our own PBMR nuclear technology
In Italy an old deaf lady had solar pannels on her roof and had so much power, she sold some back to the power companies. Why can't we do that here? The people that can afford it put up solar and sell it back to the grid. It is redonkulous.
All of a sudden they want nuclear????
I'm shocked, it used to be painted as BAD idea during Zuma's time.
@@everythingelsesport2000 VAST improvements - plus Nuclear IS the ONLY SUSTAINABLE choice.
@@everythingelsesport2000why do black people always do this, it was bad bevause it's ZUMA. It doesn't matter who it was, as long as we get it because we both know it's a good idea to have nuclear generators. We are here discussing this topic and not about the corrupt zuma
Nuclear was always been on the cards even under mbeki. Look up nuclear-1.
We are basically watching rupert and bill gates fight it out
Lol Zuma wanted to do this years ago
to steal
@@spy2sa54like most don’t steal😂😂lots of jokers here
All depends who benefits.
Firstly, well done to Newzroom Afrika for hosting the best debate on this topic I've seen so far.
I thought the debate between the engineers was really great, and I agreed with most of the points made by both of them - I think the difference in their stances is based on how to weigh the uncertainty of the technical advancements in grid scale storage over that timeframe. This is a valuable and productive debate. The "activist" was disappointing as usual - outright factual errors (not nitpicking ones - material errors that invalidate his arguments), and the disingenuous argument that nuclear builds are too expensive, when a large part of that expense has been the delays due to action by activists operating from false information and understanding.
I'm generally pro-nuclear and I think it's a grand tragedy that the green movement has so thoroughly defeated its own cause (massively setting back the fight against climate change) by choosing romanticism and fear of the unknown over doing the due diligence of actually learning about the subject so that their actions are rationally in aligned with their goal.
All that said, I think that on the whole I'd rather South Africa bets on renewables and grid scale storage over nuclear at this stage. A lot of that is that I just don't have confidence that the decision makers and management have the absolute and long term commitment to good governance and safety culture that is a required part of successfully operating a nuclear fleet. I'm also horrified at the prospect of giving Russia leverage over our energy security which would be the case if the plants are procured from Rosatom. I think my stance would be different if it was the 4th gen PBMR tech on the cards instead, because of its radically different safety profile.
The bet on renewables is very risky though - it's far from certain that the grid-scale storage problem can be solved in an economically viable way on that timescale. Pumped hydro is great in places where you have the geography for it, but we've already built those in the places we can and we'd need many, many times more to make a renewables-centric grid work. Hydrogen is just dumb, it's motivated reasoning by people with no engineering sense. Lithium is great for batteries where watt hours / unit weight or volume is what matters most (like electric vehicles, laptops, cellphones, etc), but it's already far along its maturation curve - I would be very surprised if we see another 50% reduction in cost per watt hour, and that's not going to be enough for grid-scale storage. So, as I see it, we're left hoping that something like sodium ion battery chemistries work out (much worse than lithium on storage/weight and storage/volume metrics, but potentially much better on storage/cost which is what matters for grid-scale batteries). But I've watched two decades of miracle battery tech headlines go by every few weeks with all of them failing to get to market, so it's more wishful thinking than a sound bet. Or something even further out there like pumped "hydro" using the slimes dams and very deep gold mines around Joburg: the back-of-the-envelope numbers are surprising - the huge head provided by the kilometers of depth of the mines and the higher densities of the slimes over water both do good things for the energy storage capacity of a relatively small amount of working fluid, the expensive infrastructure has already been built and paid for by the retired gold mining operations, and they're situated very close to major centers of power requirements and good solar locations, so transmission costs and losses would be low.
Great points. One thing that needs to be added, they are only talking about procuring 2500MW of Nuclear. Way more Solar will be procured over the next decade. I also do not see lithium battery prices falling dramatically like the price of solar panels. That happened already. The major cost is now mining the lithium, and that's not going to get cheaper as mines get deeper. Lithium stocks did have a big crash last year, but battery prices remained steady. Also the hidden cost of additional transmission lines for solar, or the large swathes of land that needs to be cleared for solar farms, is never spoken about.
Studies such as the widely respected Lazard report show clearly that new nuclear plants are the most expensive way to generate electricity - a simple fact.
@@pbecker1865 Did your read the report Peter?
"The LCOS (Lazard's Levelized Cost of Energy+), in a similar manner, compares the cost of battery energy storage systems (“BESS”) across a variety of use cases and applications (e.g., 1-hour, 2-hour and 4-hour systems)."
"Lithium-ion batteries remain the most cost competitive short-term (i.e., 2 - 4-hour) storage technology, given, among other things, a mature supply chain and global
market demand."
They only provide for 4 hours of battery storage for PV. So after midnight, we hope that the wind blows really hard until sunrise?
Thanks Dave, keep teaching about the common sense of power generation 👏🏾
That's Precisely what Jacob Zuma wanted to do🤦🏿♂️🤦🏿♂️ Are we supposed to celebrate this now that it has the backing of these chaps??
We would've been 5years into the project now.
Lol. It's crazy how y'all see Zuma as a hero all of a sudden. Fickle is what you are. Yes he initiated the procurement of NE but he's still was very corrupt.
@@YETI_312 I'm not sure about where you get all the other nonsense you wrote here, but fact is that this was initiated by him. Let's appreciate that and move on.
@@MrLechesa You calling whatever else I said nonsense shows that you're already invested on putting him on a pedestal😂 It's not a secret that Zuma was corrupt.... as I said, it was good that he suggested it but we're where we are because of his and his cronies actions. Leave your emotions aside and mature yourself for this conversation.
@@YETI_312 What you and I think about Zuma is besides the point. This was conceptualized under his leadership and we must give credit where it's due. It has nothing to do with pedestals and alleged corruption
@@MrLechesa Yes it's not about what we think of him.... it's about what he is and he is a corrupt politician. Why tf are you guys ducking the truth??...the investigations and evidence are there foe everyone to see. Nuclear power was always in the works, that is why We have Koeberg. Him suggesting the use of NE doesn't outweigh his contribution to the problem.... it's as simple as that. I can't fuck up someone's car then when I suggest that he get a new one all of a sudden I deserve praise... now That's nonsense. Give yourself time to think about it.
Zuma wanted nuclear the DA and media fought him!
Now the GNU of the Oppenheimers wants it because they will eat!
Zuma wanted corrupt tenders , just like they did with the coal plants.
But David was clear in this video that the Renewables Lobbyists lied about the procurement process under Zuma. Arguing that it was a Zuma vs Oppenheimer battle is simply ignorant and leaving out the specifics of what went wrong to scupper the deal is unpatriotic and disingenuous.
@@ProcaviaCapensis-ts8ubthat’s a flat out lie, no suppliers were selected by the time the procurement process was cancelled. How is it possible to get corrupt tenders without even knowing how much it’ll cost and who will supply it. Again, you’re spewing unpatriotic garbage fed to you by the corrupted media.
The guy is saying nuclear energy was conceptualized in the 2000s before Zuma and was short down and was short down again in the 2010s during Zumas time and it will be short down again in the 2020s. Treasure will not allow such a huge cost like it rejected before. Maybe in the 2030s we will talk about it again and it won't go anywhere even then.
Nuclear power is a good idea especially in this gorvnment bevause there would not be any stealing and ontop of it, it will be done the right way to avoid disasters.. Stop making ZUMA a hero he was not
Just checked out the Indian guy. So yeah he is with the World Economic Foundation (WEF)...it explains his stance...
Yup activists are mostly business people in it for themselves, or ignorant people that have been lead astray with their propaganda.
These people should register as foreign agents and be required by law to disclose this at every forum like s3xual offenders.
whoooo Peter Peter.. No man....
This guy is british 😂😂😂
I respect Vuyo but he seems unprepared and not on good footing to argue with the experts.
Well said, Dave🎉
We have lots of coal and co2 is the building block of life
we need much more nuclear energy it has the best energy density ratio per m2 than anything else. Solar and wind needs much more land, thats land that could be inhabitated by wildlife that will be driven out.
Nuclear is 100% the correct path to take!
This was to to short would have loved to hear from muhamed and the energy activist people who are neutrals
Lol he is renewable activist not energy activist, I even doubt he is an community activist. To me he sounds like someone marketing crypto 😅.
@@georgeshikwambana7322 I have been working with communities and grassroots organisations since 2012. I became an activist when I saw a poster in 2010 demonstrating how deceptive the nuclear industry is when marketing itself. My initial focus was only Koeberg, but over the years, as people asked me 'If not Koeberg, what then?' I have become more and more familiar with renewable costs, grid constraint issues etc etc.
This Indian man want to compare nuclear with solar panels 😂😂😂 ..hai this guys must just retire
Someone must tell them that China has more than 60 Nuclear Power plants
We as a country can do it all, create Nuclear power plants, Renewable plants & coal plants... excess energy we send to Zimbabwe & Nigeria 😂
This is a crucial debate that needs to be had over 2 hours with serious people in the room. I will say the experience of other countries globally must be considered to inform discourse.
Totally agree. I think there should also be fact checking - perhaps participants should submit a list of facts, with references, that they intend to use before the show. That way Dave could not get away with outlandish statements and costings about batteries, or claiming that a nuclear plant could be built with a ludicrously low cost of capital.
Where are the Black energy experts??
Dave Nichols the ONLY EXPERT TO LISTEN TO HERE!! Don't waste out time with wanna-be's. Especially an activist. Ugh.
I'm so glad Dave is heading NECSA.
Renewable procurement program is currently over R3trillion 😂
Does that translate to a negative or positive?
@@williamphetoe408we have loadshedding
some of these guys are out of touch with reality. Small nuclear reactors are the answer.
So it was a problem when Zuma announced it and the country didn't have money for it mara a few years down the line ... lemme thul
This was first touted in the 2000s before Zumas time and it was short down even then. It's gonna be short down again. This has nothing to do with Zuma but with money.
Even now it's still in discussion, he didn't say they have allocated money for it and please everything doesn't revolve around ZUMA. This must be a meaningful debate not I told you so
How could these 2 guys be put on the same panel as Dave? Nuclear by far cheaper and cleaner to run.
Clearly you have absolutely no idea of the real costs ...
@@pennybrown3140 clearly. Clearly I've been researching the incorrect info. I should just stick to what MSM feeds us and live in ignorance. Have you researched how much "renewables" really cost economically and to the expenses of nature? When a wind turbine has to be replaced? the cost? When solar panels reach end of life how do they get recycled?they don't. What power can they supply vs nuclear?a fraction for what is spent
There is a trap to compare the cost of a long paid off plant, like Koeberg, to the costs of a new build. This is of course a false comparison. Studies such as the widely respected Lazard report show clearly that new nuclear plants are the most expensive way to generate electricity - a simple fact.
SMR - small modular reactors...thorium reactors...molten salt reactors....these advancement are piloted in other countries...old pebble bed reactors, what zuma wanted, are not the future of nuclear
Fact check: Koeberg can ramp at 5% per minute? Well, my car specification says it has a top speed of 220km/h, but I never drive it like that, for obvious reasons of safety and wear and tear. If you ask the Koeberg plant manager directly (as I have) they will tell you the max ramp rate they do at Koeberg is 2% per hour.
Do you work at Koeberg?
@@AirWolfAT6 No.
Where are we buying a nuclear plant from? It's severely expensive. Add corruption and SA can not begin to afford this clean form of power.
What do u suggest?
Peter is an ACTIVIST, that tells me everything!
Those idiots are so uninformed....
Next time, volunteer yourself to be part of the panelists.
I hope you’re an energy expert?!
“The believe in renewables”
It's like a religion
It is a region
The Russians can do this fast fast
They don't want them, that's why it was "wrong" during Zuma's time.
And Chernobyl?
@@billyork9588 is that the main reason for declining Russian partnership, Bill?
Okay
Technology has become dirt cheap, making nuclear with all the latest safety features absolutely a bargain. The US & European suppliers are not cheap and their projects never run on time. Chinese, Russian and Korean suppliers are technically more advanced, reliable, are drastically cheaper and provide 24/7 Base load power. There is a place for wind and sun power, but to build a country and grow its industrial economy with renewables only this simply will not work.
Hawu did you "business" not crucify Zuma for pushing for Nuclear energy, yall justvwanted the stage to carry out the theft on a bigger scale
They were not ready.😅 Now their spoons are out.
@@ndumisovunandlala4753 Zuma can barely push a pencil. Dangerous he,s gullible
Re the R800+ million bailout comment which Dave Nicholls was so upset about: see notes on page 179 of the NECSA 2020 Annual Report. Under Deferred income, Government Grants. For "Received during the year" the figure is R809,751,000
Please install Rosatom RITM200's at the coal-fire power stations. Get nuclear power generating ships to provide power while we install the SMR's. "Renewable energy" is a scam.
Very smart people. I heard big Mo was also a part of the Martian wind farms.
But he his hedging his cards on a battery breakthrough in the next decade. The lithium battery was invented in 1976. Since the year 2000, people have been betting for a battery breakthrough within the next couple of years. We are now in 2024. Zinc, Sodium, Graphene, Solid State ...
Mohamed Mahdi is smoking some strong stuff 😂
Stop exporting raw uranium, start to process on home soil,its job creation beyond thoughts, its a huge step forward, support the nuclear system which had been put in place many many moons ago by pioneers in this in South Africa. Stop supporting foreign western countries who in the end,just sucks you dry. Wind and solar can never ever stabilize the grid on its own. All over the World, so called renewable energy experts now run around looking for stable base load, and many built coal plants,some nuclear and some like in europa,screwed themselves back into the dark ages by cutting themselves off cheap Russian gas.
@@desertchild3550 💯, I think Necsa might belooking to go into fuel processing and fabrication in the long term. It'll make sense if they did.
Renewable energy is expensive if you consider the full supply solution. Think transmission lines.
Russia can supply nuclear at a cheaper rate
@@phumlamazibuko3003
But there's still a cost on the nation other than financial. Maybe South Korea would be a more neutral supplier who doesn't have geopolitical aspirations outside of their own region.
The landlords are back they are re build thier country,the former country's key taker once had that idea but the landlords didnt want to implement the idea becoz he was just a key taker.then we say we are liberated
At what cost and how long will it take? I urge the public to go solar as individuals giving individuals a fixed cost of electricity for 20 years and being independent of government overspending, constant tariff hikes and lack of delivery. Even taking a loan to get independent is cheaper than being tied into the government monopoly! Work it out for yourselves, you will be surprised!
EDF
As long as we dont have to PAY for it, like the townships, squatter camps , goverment departments, its a win win 😁
Crazy outlandishly expensive and totally unnecessary given the price of storage and the progress in storage research. Apart from the fact that the rest of the world is going for SMRs and not mega reactors
You all come from your corner.
Davidis saying he supports batteries mainly because he knows how to build battery powered stations because he has taught his own family members the battery business.But when we look at the success that the countries with nuclear we can say it speaks for itself.David doesnt hjave one country he can show us to say here is a successful country that uses solar.Thats because only calculators use solar.You cant run a country with solar.
Just be careful from which country you get this. The Russians and Chinese will have some expectations which SA may not be keen on signing up to for the lifetime of the station, e.g. ~70 years.
I think China and Russia is better than those who took our gold more than 500 years but they end up selling our gold back to us very expensive,we left with nothing making them first world countries with our minerals
@mahdi alludes to this technology might get better , these costs might get lower , i am building major industrial battery storage projects. There are new technologies , then doesnt elaborate on it at all! Doesnt back any of it with concrete and clear examples. Just waffles on in a vague manner. We need examples , facts , client and case reviews , facts and numbers.
If these Domkoppe approved it when Zuma came up with the idea....maybe the construction was under way allready !!!!
It was not his idea, this came before him in 2008 he became president may 2009.
I agree with Mr Madhi, nuclear will take too long cost too much , with Anc in charge will take twice as long and cost twice as much.
It not government building.......... wake up.
😂😂😂😂 The “renewable” lobbyists… always misleading the public
Why have a nuclear discussion with energy experts whom have private interests in renewables…
Odd….
Very odd indeed!
😡
Zuma wanted this 10 years back
Insentivise solar much more especially to commercial properties
You are all hypocrites
Where/how will we 'store' all the renewable when they are old. As far as I know it is a huge burden on the planet.
Nuclear is the way to go. Just a pity that when Zuma wanted to get nuclear going, he wanted to give our freedom away to the Russians which was stopped just in time.... Best we do our Nuclear ourselves!
Wow, Peter, lie after lie after lie. I am also guessing that he uses no products (even smartphones/wifi routers) that are made in China? Environmentally, what about the vast swathes of land that need to be cleared for solar farms? And where do you buy the cheap high density batteries that Mohamed speaks about? Why are Tesla/Hyundai not using them?
@aslam7952 I can back up every statement with references - just ask. "Swathes of land"? Rooftop solar (over 6GW already in SA) does not need any land to be cleared.
@@pbecker1865 Go watch the video Peter. The bailout lie? The koeberg ramp up lie? Show us the references. And you know that the IPP's are not using rooftops for their solar farms. It's not practical to enter into lease agreements with thousands of property owners. Also, no one is against private rooftop generation. All caps have been removed for private generation. Just let Eskom add generation that can be used 24/7 so that we do not end up with Stage 6 load shedding again in 10 years due to lack of capacity.
Terra power is going to import neclear fuel from SA and Russia 😂listen to Bill Gates in cbs
Mixed energy is the way, lithium energy storage is needed too, I'm just worried that we might over pollute with high minerals needed for batteries,let's not forget,we tackling pollution with another pollution peer,
Thanx Dave and the host for an illuminating take on nuclear
@mohammed mahdi. Talking total rubbish.
Madhi doesnt know anoything abouth batteries
To advocate for unreliable renewables and actively fight against proven and working nuclear for the country is the highest form of Treason
When President Zuma wanted us to go nuclear u hypocrites made noise about the non-existent nuclear deal.
Troll
There's no PRESIDENT Zuma!
... are you literate?
There's only 'ex convict' Zuma or parolee Zuma.
Or Zuma the trial evader?
@@troy1709-h5f did you escape from Weskopies mental institution?
Cost is one factor.
Environmental and human health is another.
Cost should not be the main criteria
Renewables is the future - does not need evacuation plans, lower risk to the environment and mankind.
Why don't you go live in the woods somewhere with all natural environment around you?
Try a Brain Transplant !!!
Have you ever contemplated running something like a copper melt on renewable energy? You are not very smart.
Udakiwe wena
We need nuclear power to grow the economy. Grows its industrial base. Solar and hydrogen economy should only be viewed as supplemental for low level usage, for example, the telecommunications network. These activists are clueless about energy density and usage. I am a physicist..