Why a Recent Law Grad says Don't go to Law School
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- čas přidán 13. 04. 2023
- #lawschool #lsat #lawyer #lawschooladmissions #attorney #legalcareer #lawjobs #newjerseylawyer #lawyershow #newyorklawyer #paceuniversity #pacelawschool #georgetownlaw #legalprofession
Check out youtube channel efoshizzle. Judy the CZcams Lawyer interviews a recent law school graduate in the New York- New Jersey area who cautions people about going to law school. Elia K. graduated from Pace University law school and teaches writing at the college level. Judy the CZcams Lawyer graduated from UC Berkeley & Georgetown University Law Center and has her own law practice. - Zábava
Please, if nothing else, if you are even remotely considering law school, know this: The job market for JD's is profoundly over-saturated and has been for many years. It only get worse as time goes on. The old "if I don't get good grades, I will just work at the Public Defender's Office", that was actually true, when I attended a well ranked law school in the early 90's. Today, even getting into the OPD (Office of the Public Defender) is VERY difficult, and many, if not most, of the lawyers there stay there for life. And don't even think about the old "if I can't get a job, I will "hang out a shingle" and open your own solo practice--in my state a brand new baby lawyer was recently DISBARRED for gross incompetence that led to one of his clients getting convicted and deported. You WON"T know what you're doing, fresh out of law school, trust me on that.
Very true. Few people want to hire a lawyer who just graduated or has only a few years of experience.
@@aalegalfocus If Law Schools actually taught people how to practice law, this would not be so much of a problem. But that would make too much sense, apparently. . .
I agree. It’s way different then the model stuff in school lol.
@@rvegas81 It is quite common for law students to spend 3 credit hours, a semester, studying Contracts, without ever reviewing and actual legal contract that is used by lawyers and laypersons IRL. When considering who to hire, I focus on students who got practical work experience while in law school, not ones who spent 3Y as grade-grubbers and/or wrote for an idiotic "secondary journal" that no one reads or cares about.
I was a note editor for what was then called the International Environmental Law Review. It was very tedious, boring & time-consuming, and I learned nothing practical from it.
My law school would be paid in full due to the hazelwood act in Texas for veterans. But everything else you said was depressing as fuck.
If you're at the top of the class, you'll likely be fine. Thank you for your service!
Thank you Judy for all you do 😊
Thanks for tuning in. Have a good day!
Thank you for doing this education interview. Your video helped a lot.
You're welcome!
This was very informative and enlightening video! Thanks Judy and Elia!
Thanks for watching us!
Congratulations on retirement, @Terry !
This was very informative
Thank you!
Thanks for watching!
Thank you so much for reducing competition in the feint of heart among the field😂 ❤
As a not recent law school grad, I second this position.
The LSAT is a broad IQ test but worthless for assessing your ability to succeed in law school or practice.
A better test is to learn a bit of legal writing and research, pick a case/topic/thesis (talk to a local law professor), and write it up unassisted
put it away for a few months then grade your work, if it makes you cringe don't go to law school
I'd also advise working in a real law office before and during law school, or better yet become a plumber and deal with less $hit
How's your career going now? Thanks for commenting.
Even in the medical field, the debt is very high and there is no guarantee that a job is going to be waiting for you after graduation or residency. In the healthcare field, if you piss off the wrong doctor h/she can tag your employment background making it hard to find your next gig. Medical solo practice without an established referral networks can put you in the poor house very quickly. I do not think at this point no industry is safe from unemployment. I thought about the liberal arts or something else that is less expensive like the field of education. Education at the Ed.S or doctoral level pay very well.
Interesting perspective on this, law school definitely not for everyone
These real life stories need to be told, to combat the law schools' propaganda. Thank you for watching this!
Also most lawyers that graduate don’t even have the skill. I am a paralegal and I’m at six figures and know alot more than majority of lawyers. I’ve actually trained a few cause they don’t even know anything other than the book they learned in those 3 years.
In essence definitely work in the field before doing K-JD. To actually see if you like it and the industry it’s not for the weak and no it is not like the reality tv shows you all fantasize (suits) being one of them that sky rocketed people wanting to go into law. 🤡
How long did it take you to get 6 figs ? What state if you don't mind?
@@tini96Texas & 3 years started off at 55K and went up
Congratulations!
But i still wanna go to lawschool!!😊
Like I said, it depends on the individual's circumstances. If you can afford it & get into a top school, good luck!
Just do it.
I agree. I enjoyed meeting everyone and had a good scholarship. But the job field was just not there or worth it in the long run.
Yaaas I am rooting for you 💕🙌🏽
This may sound obvious, but don't go to law school unless you are willing to read 100+ pages of legal theory and cases every week for 3 or 4 years, or if you don't like writing or doing legal research. If you want to do trial you must feel comfortable with public speaking.
True! That's why it's so important that would be law students try to work in a legal setting first and talk to a lot of law students/younger lawyers so they know what they're getting into.
Yeah that's true. I remember feeling overwhelmed by all the reading assigned.
It's designed to overwhelm you with minutiae that will have zero relevance to you as a practicing lawyer. There is so, so much wrong with the way law is taught, jobs are found, and careers play out for lawyers. I would happily trust a first-year practicing Nurse, or truck driver, or even a pilot--I wouldn't trust a brand-new lawyer to handle a parking ticket, and I mean that quite literally. First year lawyers are generally worthless, because law school doesn't teach them how to practice law, and second year lawyers aren't much better (except for a few very smart people who learn very quickly).
@criminallaw9573 true. Did you hear Golden Gate University's JD program is shutting down? The whole place should.
Yes, I did hear that. . .but still... there are 10 law schools in Pennsylvania, 8 law schools in Virgina, and 6 law schools in tiny DC. I think each jurisdiction would be adequately served with one law school, meaning 3 law school in PA, VA & DC not 24. @@aalegalfocus
So I don’t get the point-he wants law school shorter and lower cost-but that still doesn’t mean you will get a high paying job or even any job . AND -As for me, as a legal consumer - I still want a top notch lawyer with great legal experience and top of the class background. It’s easy now for the clients to check on the lawyer that they want to hire. (You’re not going to hire a lower tier inexperienced or poor experienced lawyer if you do your homework ). I think he sounds like he wants a shortcut 😂. So naive. Good luck getting work or clients.
That's true- no one wants to hire a lawyer who's fresh out of law school or with just a few years of experience. That's why people need to look at the chances of getting real employment after graduation.
Law schools tell applicants "come to our amazing school, some of our grads get very well paying jobs with large, prestigious law firms!" Then after thw gullible mark signs the dotted line and enrolls, the truth emerges. At most law schools, large law firms will only grant interviews to students in the top ten percent of their class (top five percent for very grade-sensitive firms like Cravath). So for 9/10 law students, those jobs are entirely out of reach. Now, what if you are an amazing student, truly gifted, and you graduate at the top of your class and get a job with a large law firm? Well, at an annual salary of 190K, working 70 hours a week (typical for a first year in BigLaw, where sleeping overnight at your office is something that happens) you will make a whopping $50 per hour, pre-tax, with no time-and-a-half overtime. 50 bucks an hour--after 7Y of higher education--but if you have a wiring issue and need an electrician to come to your house, he will charge you $140 per hour. So will a plumber. Oh, and those jobs last 4Y on average, meaning that many people spend 7Y in college and law school for a "career" in biglaw that is over in 24-36 months, miserable overworked months, BTW. And that's the best outcome possible for most law students. . Don't do this. Practicing law is not like an episode of Suits or Law & Order. Don't make a big, expensive, life-changing mistake.
Thanks for watching & commenting as always. Plus, true big law firms don't recruit from bottom tier law schools at all.
@@aalegalfocus The problem with going to law school is that people keep making the same mistakes, again and again, and the job market gets more and more flooded with every new crop of law school grads. People will think "I did very well in college and high school, I got top grades, so I can certainly ace law school as well." The problem is that in law school you are competing against a mass of other people who also got top grades in college and law school, and with a tight curve, only about 10 percent of them will get an A in each class. And again, even if you get top grades, and land a job in Biglaw, odds are quite high that it will only last for a few years.
Yeah, it's a real downer when people talented enough to get big law later get fired (or told they're not going to be partner so look for other options). I know of many people who suffered a big drop in income and morale when that happened to them.
@@aalegalfocus Again, they do not understand how large firms really work. The only guaranteed way to make partner at a large law firm is to bring in a lot of new clients, and new money, to the firm, that will exceed what you are paid. Most people have no idea how to land a million dollar clients, let alone a client who will bill a million dollars a year for years on end. 4th year associates are paid a VERY high salary, so the Partners have a strong incentive to cull them in favor of lesser paid first and second year associates. The first and second year associates typically have no idea what they are doing, so all of this badly hurts the firm's clients, but that's just the way they do things to maintain a very high Profit Per Partner number year in and year out.
A few smart clients of large law firms have a "no first year lawyers" policy when it comes to handling their cases, but most aren't smart enough to figure this out. . .so they end up paying obscene amounts of money for work done by grossly inexperienced, grossly overworked lawyers. The law firms will tell you "these were A students". . .but so what? They're still clueless newbies. If you need legal assistance, fine an experienced lawyer who charges reasonable fees and works reasonable hours. Trust me, we're out there, you can afford us, and we will help you. . .we won't rip you off and hand your file to a first-year lawyer who got four hours of sleep last night.
Great livestream. Re: the cost of legal education. Many times, people overlook the fact that those with full rides are effectively getting their education paid for by those paying full tuition. Couple this with the fact that schools are allocating scholarships based on their indexes of who is more and less likely to succeed coming out of law school. Law school costs someone a raw financial figure, but for many law students who also pay the most, there is an amplified disadvantage. The pressures of needing to secure post-graduate income to match the level of debt accruing, flexibility in spending during law school, and knowing that more of your peers than not are are probably higher achievers than you are (using objective metrics) can all stack up to a little fish + big pond effect. I would love to see an empirical study of scholarships correlating with earning power or some other success metric. But for those considering paying close to full tuition for law school, ask if you are willing to pay for both yourself and another student who has clearly impressed the admissions office more than you have.
Good commentary. Are you in law school?
@@aalegalfocus Haha Hi Judy it's Joseph. Yes I am. About one month left to go!
Oh I was wondering how you were doing! Thanks for still taking the time to watch. Good luck as you finish up with finals!
Question: After Applying to law schools this is what I've heard:
- a. If I get into t14 , aim for big firm or higher work for the pay to pay off debt
- b. If you can't do that, go to less prestigious schools and walk with 0/less debt but probably going to have less starting pay off the bat.
That's good very general advice. However, very low-ranked schools should be avoided, because the chances of being unemployed is too high. Also, a few people at the very top of the class at lower-ranked law schools may get big or mid-law. People at the bottom of the class even at T10-14 schools also can have difficulty getting decent paying, real attorney jobs. It depends on a lot of factors.
AI will take most lawyer and para jobs in the next two years...just wait.
Technology and outsourcing to other countries have definitely cut down on doc review jobs and the pay in the US. Thanks for watching this. Are you an attorney?
Already took over medical staff
Thanks!
Thanks for your support!
I’m applying for law school. I think law school is more valuable to people who have career experience or even are switching careers but will utilize their expertise. I definitely have realized that I am doing this at the right time in my life. Think about the TYPE of law you’re interested in before going and although it can change, there is a starting point. Also, don’t choose a law school without interviewing the career services. You shouldn’t have to look for a job. I’m choosing a school where I know the Career services company wants to find me a position or money for my company because it benefits the school. It’s a win-win.
Great that you are putting a lot of thought & research into your decision. Career Services is part of the law school "propaganda" though, so I would focus more on reaching out to recent graduates through LinkedIn or other avenues. Career Services offices in general can help with students in the top 5-20% of the class. A career counselor at my school just rudely told me to apply to places farther away from DC like around Baltimore. She herself was a Harvard law school grad and only practiced law for a few years. Everyone has to hustle and do their own networking to try to get a job. Best wishes & good luck!
@@aalegalfocus Agree about career services. I've had the pleasure of working with a helpful and competent career services at my school but let's not forget their primary job is to manage relationships with employers--the customers that return year after year. The students are their product, not their patrons (students are already committed to paying the tuition).
@@aalegalfocus Career Services Offices usually work to help the exact set of students who DON"T NEED HELP finding a job, the folks in the top 10 percent who made Law Review. And yes, they are propaganda machines. Remember, law school is designed to carefully rank and sort students by grades. Half of all law students will be in the bottom half of the class, no matter how you run the numbers. The Career Services workers will smirk at those hapless, unemployed, and possibly unemployable people and say "it's not our fault you didn't get good grades. You should have studied harder".
So someone just posted on here that all job fields are saturated, and this isn't a law thing. Respectfully, no. I did a Jail Visit with a client today, and there was a big electronic sign outside the Detention Center advertising jobs for Correctional Officers starting at over 50k. Where I live there are literally signs on the side of the road with big dollar symbols on them, advertising Cash Bonuses for Nurses. They will literally pay you to take a job as a Nurse. There is a major teacher shortage where I live, and public school teachers start at 55K or more. So, no, not every job field is saturated, not even close. Please, don't be a dummy. Don't go to law school and flounder to find work. 4 semesters studying nursing will get you a cash bonus to start working, at a nice salary, and you probably can get your employer to pay for another 4 semesters, giving you a Bachelor's Degree and, perhaps, a six-figure salary. Or become a cop, or a teacher, or a pilot--seriously, do some research, there is a major need for workers in all of those fields, and I personally know a pilot who earns a quarter-million dollars a year, plus more money for taking on special assignments. Law is portrayed as a sexy, high-paying profession, and while I have figured out how to monetize my JD, most never do (and I don't make nearly as much as the Pilot with a Bachelor's degree.)
😂 you don't happen to live in Illinois or Indiana do you? That's what I see in those areas in terms of jobs but it is difficult trying to get a job that isn't any of those places. 😅 hence, why I am unsure about going to law school. A few lawyers already told me not 😂
@naev.3344 what reasons did those lawyers give for not going to law school? Lack of good jobs?
@@aalegalfocus Hi! These were lawyers I asked in passing for advice. Two suggested not to do it because of oversaturation (both are teachers now), while one told me he only did it for the "prestige" but regretted it because he did not make as much money as he expected (he now works in insurance). The last still practices law (a solo practitioner of Real Estate Law), I spoke to her during an interview and she agreed to not do it for financial reasons because it may not pan out.
Considering my current financial situation needs improvement, hearing their advice coupled with the reality of student loan debt made me very unsure about continuing on this path. I just discovered your channel last night (it popped up in my recommendations) so I've been watching a few of your videos for some more clarity. For more background, I am interested in possibly studying Real Estate or Entertainment/Intellectual Property Law.
@@naev.3344 Do yourself a favor and stay far away from law schools. Law school Deans and professors live large on the student loan dollars of the people who attend their schools. They love to lie to applicants, saying things like "we have an amazing International Law Program, or perhaps you can study Sports Law or even Space Law!". I have been practicing law for nearly 30 years. I haven't met a Space Lawyer yet, or an "international Lawyer" or a sports agent who went to law school--I have run into an awful lot of unemployed and severely underemployed lawyers, though, with student loans they will never pay back.
I was watching and my son came in 🤦🏼♀️but I was enjoying find law interesting although I am a Barber and hair stylist and many other things 🤭but definitely a fan of yours 💯✌🏻
Thanks for watching this also. I gotta find some other topics to cover as we continue to wait for Charlie Adelson's trial.
@@aalegalfocus Fantastic ! 👏🏻❣️
A big reason not to go to law school for me was how improbable it is in the long run. The largest aspirations in the law (big law, regional court positions, national levels, etc.) get winnowed down to lottery level numbers in the likelihood of getting those positions.
Very good video....and its true, you learn more law during bar review courses than you do during law school
Thanks for watching!
Weren’t they saying don’t go into Law in the 80s! I think i remember the film St Elmo’s Fire one of the characters saying that Law is over saturated with graduates and that was nearly 40 years ago.
No one warned me in the 90s when I applied. Thanks to the internet and youtube, people can make more informed choices.
@@aalegalfocus True! Thanks for the public advice! But all of the tears could have ended if you’d watched St Elmo’s Fire before applying 🤣
@ianarn haha. If only people had been honest with me. Back in the day, when telling people you wanted to go to law school, you'd hear praise and admiration. I've tried to tell the blunt truth to younger people, but it still often makes them mad.
@@aalegalfocusyou don't like being a lawyer? Do you regret it? Why did you go into law
Yes…I’ve known for decades that there are too many unemployed or underemployed lawyers. This is OLD NEWS.
I’ve grown to really love the LSAT partly because I think it’s a useful self-sorting If you can’t get in the high 170s you probably don’t have the necessary work ethic or tolerance for drudgery to do well in school or practice.
It's rare and difficult for people to get a score in the high 170s, but as a former LSAT instructor/tutor, imho if someone can't score at least a 150, s/he shouldn't go to law school. The schools that would accept people with low scores are (again, imho & in general) not worth attending, & the chances of passing a bar exam are slim.
I want to go to law school, but can’t overcome the lsat. I know I’m a hard worker, and have the grades, it’s just suck, how a test can create so much hurdles. I’m a good memorizer.
Heading to a t14 this fall with 50% scholarship. This is my third career (was a working DJ prior). Should I go or stay as a working DJ making 50k per year?
Without knowing all the details, I think it would be worth it to go to your T14 with a partial scholarship. Being a DJ isn't usually a lifelong career with the potential for greater pay, I assume? Good luck to you!
@@aalegalfocus Thank you !
I was about to graduate from law school in a few weeks but im well aware of the sunk cost fallacy and i will drop out immediately. Thank you for this informative video.
😥 how will i pay for this debt now?
The cap in this comment you never went to law school cause why would you be broke for all this time and jump ship the last minute 😊
@@iFrankie. clearly you aren't aware of the *sunk cost fallacy*
Learn to read zoomer
Did you finish or drop out
There is a country or more than one you don't have to pay for college.
How would someone get legal permission to live and study for no cost in said countries if they do not have the education or degree in the first place?
I personally don't understand the CBE (CA Bar) argument that it's too expensive or only for rich people. I'm looking at a program that's $20k a year, with $4k CA financial aid semesterly. You also have the opportunity for scholarships and you can work during the day at local court as a clerk or similar. You have compound BS and MLS degrees. And a JD in record time sometimes about 3-4 years for everything total. Let's say $80k max for everything. My experience otherwise is that traditional ABA law students finish with upwards of $100k and closer to $200k in debt. So, right there I don't understand the debate about $20 a year vs $20k a *semester*. I don't believe many high preforming law students get to work and pay for school simultaneously, as well as at the local court. The debate still stands for the quality of your degree but many employers have plenty of 4.0 students but how many come with 2 years experience as a clerk, or who worked under local judges? CBE is a great opportunity and solution to the over saturation of traditional law students. Thank you for the video x
What program is that?
Does a job in law consist of working from home?
Could be if you can find a remote job. Some federal government jobs are remote.
Your connection started messing up.
I'm not sure if it was an internet problem or Streamyard. Thanks for watching!
What I don't get about these "dont do law school" videos...both of you didn't have to go to the character committee. I did, which was a nightmare. Why are you complaining if you didn't, I assume, have to go to the character committee, they put me through 2 years of nonsense. Also, why didn't you take an additional degree and do law with that degree, for eg MBA/JD. Jonathan Manson MS/JD.
Because usually, getting an extra master's degree does not make one more marketable than someone with a J.D. There's plenty more to complain about even if one gets a law license. What happened to you then? Were you able to get your law license and get a good job?
@@aalegalfocus You passed, you had no character committee issues, you were licensed, what are you complaining about? there are thousands that fail the bar or have character committee denials which are even a denial of due process. This really reflects your ability to perform employment searches, be marketable, add another credential
If you’re going to Law School SOLELY to get compensated as a “lawyer,” after you graduate and NOTHING else, then quit it. The study of law has been so misunderstood throughout the years, many go into it with dollar sign eyes and that’s just not what it’s about. Studying law is an art of logic and exercising your mind, essentially like a mind-gym. Attend law school if you want to train your mind and with that be able to help others.
Unless you go to a Tier 1 law school, don't even consider becoming an attorney....
Unless one doesn't care about money (independently wealthy or has a sugar daddy/momma) or has connections to get a good job already.
@@aalegalfocus EXACTAMUNDO!!!!! We live in a Eugene, OR, home of UOwe. The school has a law school, which I know is nowhere near Tier One. I have heard so many horror stories from law school grads of not finding a job, and weren't told the truth regarding career prospects...
@ripperduck it sounds like a nice place for school, but there probably aren't many potential employers. Were you thinking about going to law school?
@@aalegalfocus Yes, many years ago. I was a CPA back in the late 80s, during the S&L blowout. Prior to that, I had taken the LSAT, scored well, but I hadn't attended a prestigious uni as an undergrad. The best I was going to do would be a Tier Two, which would have been fine, if there were a demand for attorneys. But, due to the financial collapse, so many white collar service jobs disappeared. That ended my aspirations of a legal career..
If you want to work, the job will be there. I put my faith in Jesus Christ, and I never have to worry about anything when it comes to employment. The problem is everybody wants to rely on themselves and you’re just not a reliable individual as a human alone. You have to lean on somebody bigger than yourself to overcome this world, and that is Jesus Christ. I’m telling you from experience, go to law school if you have a calling to go to law school and don’t listen to anyone else telling you not to. Forget saturation, God is bigger. Forget, unemployment rates God is bigger. Everybody in this world lacks faith and that’s the problem. You are not the author of your destiny because you can’t even tell me the day you die. God is bigger and if you want to serve him in that career, you do so.
Well said: it’s about the faith in your endeavors. Forget the rest. 💯
Amen. You just Brought it up to the next level! Put that on a T-Shirt please I'll be your first customer! @@dage2174
💕💕🙌🏽
My dad is a lawyer and he has loved it his whole life. He lives and breathes the law. It all depends on you 💕
I 100% agree with you. I wanted to hear their POV but it sounds like they didn’t want it for themselves. With Jesus by your side ANYTHING is possible. Don’t let this discourage you