The Phil Donahue Show Gay Marriage Debate 1991
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- čas přidán 24. 02. 2015
- From early 1991, Donahue takes on the topic of gay marriage during a time when such a thing didn't seem remotely possible in America. In fact, it almost seemed laughable but the panel on this episode was downright serious about it. Such an early debate paved the way for what is going on in the world right now. Intelligent and well spoken, Craig Dean and Patrick Gill plead their case for gay marriage and do a good job at it. Equally impressive are Bob Paris and Rod Jackson. Both couples were pretty well known at the time and made the rounds on various talk shows. Did these two couples live happily ever after? Does it matter? Enjoy this look back at what was to become a major hot button political issue years later.
Phil Donahue was miles ahead of the curve on many subjects. Talk shows deteriorated over the years but Donahue was the real deal.
You can't seriously compare SJR to Donahue? He was and always has been a trailblazer. She became part of the Morton Downey crowd.
He was AWFUL.
Whether you like the guy or not HE DID pioneer THIS kind of basic format, and TODAY it seems that Oprah Winfrey is more popularly associated with it in people's minds.
he really was.
@@ianfindly3257 which is excruciatingly sad.
No matter the topic, Donahue was always a good show. No yelling. Just discussing. We need these shows again.
Hey, i love Donahue too, but there was absolutely yelling from time to time. You can't always control that.
As a 55 year old gay man, I can tell you Donahue is on my top ten list for straight men who influenced America for LBGT rights. Who else was going to try to sell housewives and stay- at- home types that homosexuals were something other than stereotypes? The daytime audience had zero exposure to these issues and the LBGT community really never thought to target them. Donahue taught these people about gay bashing, teen suicide, HIV, transsexuality, bisexuality, civil unions etc in such a way that they actually listened. He softened the ground for countless legislative efforts all over this country, and provided support for parents of closeted and terrified teens. If Gays ever decide to carve a MT Rushmore of appreciation, his face better be there.
Quit with the social justice poetry. Donahue shamelessly placed this third rate slot filler on television in 1991, knowing that the vast majority of Americans disagreed with the two men on their Swiss cheese legal argument. The *plot, you see, was to gradually drip feed gay this, that and the other to Americans till it was like running water. Unfortunately, their thinly veiled scheme was finalised in 2015 with the scandalous legalisation of gay ‘marriage’. Nature has since dispatched one of these conmen, due quite exclusively to his defiance of aforementioned nature. The same God you disregard will yet deal with the other
@@seansweeney8911 This should be fun. Which 'God' are you referring to?
@@BTURNER1961 The one who is boss of you
@@seansweeney8911 Which one is that? Don't get coy now. There are so many 'Gods' to pick from. Tell us which 'God' you have been referring to and exactly how you found out about this boss of mine ,, and how he 'dealt with' people like this gay man, who you claim 'disregarded his nature' . You had to get all this expertise and information about this God dude somewhere. So cite your source.
id say oprah was more lgbt pioneer
Phil Donahue was a Broadcast Pioneer. He was a Journalist first and foremost who happened to be a terrific and engaging host. He created the Issues Oriented Daytime Talk Show involving a studio audience one show at a time. In short, Phil Donahue was the Best. Thanks for sharing.
"They've been shoving it down our throats". Really dude? Maybe not the best phrasing of that statement.
He's graduated Tobias Funke's courses on blowhard phrasing.
robotpanda77 *meanwhile parents giving kids shirts that say snarky hetero puns
robotpanda77 🤣🤣🤣😂😂
@billyfromtheusa Really? Same-sex marriage has been legal in most of Europe and in Masachusetts for almost 20 years, and they are still very much there. How will same-sex marriage lead to our downfall? Please explain
@robotpanda77 don't be such an asshole.
Thanks for this. They did take it to court and lost. Craig is still alive and well. Patrick died in 1997.
aids?
She is 17 with a kid and she talking about role models. Talk about irony.
No lets talk about your iron abs. Damn!!!
@@Girrrrrrrrrrrrrl66 your a pervert
What does that have to do with anything? I had my first at 17 and I'm an excellent role model. Try again, pumpkin.
@@disasterbaskets12 Yeah right… your CZcams name tells me all I need to know. Thank you and goodbye!
“the kind of person that thinks she can get AIDS from a doorknob” 🤣🤣🤣
Good grief, almost 30 years ago. My husband and I had just celebrated our 1st anniversary when this show originally aired. We’ve been together ever since. 3 homes, 4 dogs, and 5 station wagons later, the love is still there. We know we’re lucky. What does one buy their husband for a 30th anniversary?
A child for memories
Congratulations on 30 years! How wonderful!
I pray that I will say the same when I am your age. (I turn 29 this week.) Congratulations, and to many decades more of the two of you! ❤❤❤🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌞🌞🌞
Happy birthday to you. I remember turning 30, my husband gave me a surprise party. We’re having another rough time in that thing called life. I might have cancer a 2nd time, but as long as I have Matthew by my side, it’ll be alright. We often look back and wonder, where did the time go. I still remember the first time I saw his face. I was at Tiffany’s window shopping. Someone tapped my shoulder, I turned around and it was Matt. He said he just wanted to say hello. We went to dinner a few nights later. I love him more today than I ever thought possible. When my dad was in hospice, I held his hand and told him not to worry, that Matt would always take care of me. He passed away a few hours later. I gave Matt my dad’s wedding band, he treasures it. I wish everyone could have what we have. Everyone deserves to be happy.
Ok
Bring the Donahue Show back!
We need a show like Donahue these days
I had no idea this has been going on for almost 25 years and we're still talking about it. Thanks so much for this piece of history.
Yes, the world existed before the year 2000! Teasing.
Yes infact a lot more.
People have been gay since the dawn of time
you can even take it back to the 60s how crazy ?
They’ve been talking about it since the early 70s
Kudos to Donahue! What a trailblazer!
He's awesome!
Yes! And for giving us Sally Jessy Raphael, due to him.
This is the kind of show Donahue, along with countless shows on AIDS, and gay employment rights, and violence against gays etc, was bringing before housewives and soccer moms long before LGBT could expect anyone to give their issues more than 5 minutes on a newscast. When I list the top ten straights that moved America towards the kind of acceptance we now enjoy, he's in that list.
Please pay attention: This was 1991, the peak of the AIDS epidemic years.
These guys were BALLSY and were fighting for gay rights in a hostile environment!
The younger generations have it sooo much easier nowadays because of these people who preceded us and paved the way. We should always be grateful. Kudos to them!
Oh please go poop yo pants
@@elgeneralxx Exactly.
Here we go Boomers.
Yet they act faaaar more oppressed and whiney lol.
..DAMMIT, Bob Paris was SUCH a trailblazer! (15:56) ...In these (horrifically) regressing times in 2023, It's MIND-BOGGLING to see what Bob (& Rod) fought for, in 1989-1993; coming out and telling...ASKING....the World, for acknowledgement of their LOVE, and Human Right(s), in 1991...It seems so ANTIQUATED now, for the Ones who benefited from their work...(CONT.)
...I'm aware that they are not together anymore, but, what they DID, for Sports / LGBTQ Rights / adoption Laws, SHOULD be respected, and acknowledged SOMEWHERE....not just on this post, on "Donahue".....BRAVO, mate(s).....
It took 24 More Years,,, but We did it Legal Marriage Nationwide
*****
Yes I realize a large number of nations are far ahead of the USA on Human Rights .
*****
I see marriage as a human need not only a human right . Like air and food .love is a need everybody needs somebody to love.,even if they haven't realized it .
*****
Hay, to each their own .I'm not judging you . I need to have a commitment to 1 man . I don't need a ring or anything like that just to know he wont be unfaithful . can't rush it not in any hurry if it happens yea if not I have to accept that .
*****
Can't rush anybody . She , your ex didn't get that .
I appreciate the history lesson.
lesbians from what I have seen were never illegal straight guys seem to think its hot . I laughed when I found how the church doesn't even punish females like Nuns who got caught together .
+shydreamguy wantsaboyfriend Fucking sick bastards.Trump will reverse this decision.Sick people.
Update on the first couple, Gill died of A.I.D.S. on June 1997. He's buried next to Dean's father. They did fight the case for like five years until a 3-judge panel in DC ruled against them. The lawyer works in a talent agency and is with somebody else.
And It Does Spread.. A. I. D. S X
Thanks for the update👍👍
Wow who would have thought 24 years later gay marriage would be legalized.Amazing.
NECKBRACEGUY This is a pretty cool episode. I was too young to watch, I was 3.
Teammm I was in elementary school when this aired. So glad we can finally marry :0)
shawn0md How old are you?
Well guys times have certainly changed for somethings.Yay!
Teammm I'm old enough. Why?
One of these guys, Patrick, sadly died in 1997. But I believe Craig managed to get married to a new partner in 2010.
Funny how that's the first thing that pops in your head
Leo Plotter what aids?
Gigi L * yep, it was the AIDS
Patrick is now probably in Hell, awaiting judgement. So sad.
@I8thumper people have to remember... AIDS was often a death sentence decades ago.
Phil was definitely a trailblazer! He discussed many topics that weren't talked about in the 80's and 90's. This was a great episode and the 2 couples were brave and courageous to speak out on gay marriage on national TV given that this was 1991. In American society, we've come along way but we still have a ways to go.
A lot of "loving" comments here. So many Christians are extreme hypocrites.
Did you include the homosexuals among the hypocrisy?
Hypocrites? How do you figure? You can't CHANGE what is written in scripture. You can't CHANGE the book of ROMANS and the rest of the Bible. They only "hypocrite" here would be a so called Christian that approves of this abomination!!!
@@QuantumEffectResidue except... Judge not yet least you be judged.
But the scriptures did get changed,for example through mistranslations.
@@juliejewels9208 People always use this line to justify their behaviors.
That was a fascinating time capsule. Thanks for posting. The progress since them is amazing. Yeah!!!
+stevers62 Sad to say Rod Jackson & Bob Paris are no longer together or they got a divorce.
MrJuly1990ish damn ruuuudddeeee
@@MrJuly1990ish just like the majority of couples in the US.
Phil Donahue was THEE talk show host. On LGB he opened so many minds. No drama.. now we are stuck with TheView😬🙉 Miss this amazing man!!
At LEAST we have the VIEW...😅
If not, I'll turn to ESPN SPORTS TALK....LOL 😅
Lgbt* Stop trying to exclude trans people cause they fought hard for our rights back then too
@@BozeDoesGodsWork No. It was LGB. The T has NOTHING to do with us.
@@mr.centrist5789Stonewall was mostly Ts
@@NiKiMa023 That is false. Stop lumping us in.
I really hope these two are still together. Happy and healthy.
Rod and Bob broke up not too long after appearing . Bob got with another guy in 1997 and is still with him today. Patrick passed away back in 1997, Craig is still living.
@@ZapataE thank you for the update. Sorry I’m six month late replying. What happened to Patrick? He seemed so young here
@@mrgordy1980 One report was Patrick Gill died of AIDS-related complications. Then another alleged relation posted a correction that Gill suffered with AIDS but died of an accidental drug overdose. In short, nobody knows why or how, but he is deceased
@@mrgordy1980 Sadly, he died of AIDS in 1997.
@@atrocchia that’s really sad, poor guy. Thank you for the update
I remember getting babysat by a friend of my Mom’s during Summertime when I was about 8 yrs old, circa 1981.
I remember Donahue
always being on in her
home and I was interested
in it because of how fair
and respectful Phil seemed towards his guests. A couple years later (circa ‘83/‘84),
Oprah launched her talk show and the whole Oprah vs Phil
was a big deal, even though they didn’t compete with each other for the same time slot.
I liked watching both,
even as a kid. I did not care for others that came after, such SJR, Rikki Lake, or Morton Downey Jr.
I'm proud of these four guys standing up for their rights at those times. I wonder how they're doing today. ❤️✌️😎
Rod and Bob broke up not too long after appearing . Bob got with another guy in 1997 and is still with him today. Patrick passed away back in 1997, Craig is still living.
@@ZapataE thank you very much 😊❤️✌️😎
@@ZapataEthat's interesting! This popped up on my CZcams page and I remember these people. Before reading your post I thought that Craig and Patrick were still together and had a family.
BOB PARIS WAS A GORGEOUS BODYBUILDER, TOO BAD HE LIKES MEN. ;AST TIME IS AW INTERVIEW HE WS 50 AND ALONE,@@ZapataE
I have to give props to whoever the lady was who attempted to process Craig and Patrick's marriage application without hesitation.❤❤❤❤
20 years from this , gay marriage was approved
I've never seen Phil Donahue but impressed with his civility
Hi Jay Roberts, I'm doing research and would love to find out if you have anything more like this. What's the best way to reach you? Thanks! Amy
2016...some of this arguements are EXACTLY the same, what does that say about our society?
that's the only reason I'm going to watch this. Just to see how much/little attitudes have changed.
It shows us how many idiots we have on this planet.
People talk about the same bull crap because it brings in views.
This is my first experience of Phil Donahue, and I swear he's hilarious!! Had me chuckling all the way through!
lol, and I'm going back for a bit of nostalgia and having my "second" chuckle.
No doubt one of the best!
its all legal today in the usa. 2015
Bob shaded the 17 year caller 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Its so amazing to me that gay marriage was so frownd upon iin the early 90's I was 11 and had 2 gay cousins then. Even if one didnt know he was gay.
The big guy made some good points but just gotta say that gay bashing is horrible but people get beat up and jumped for all sorts of nonsensical reasons and police laugh it off and tell you to beat it. That’s not rlly a right any of us have. But other than that he killed it
Oh how I miss the 90's
Why? So black, and gay people would have less rights?
@@theactualtruth4951 yah the 90s were better
@@elgeneralxx I miss 90s too but for the right reasons. You miss it for the wrong reasons
I hope to have a husband someday. Unfortunately, that may never happen. It seems that nobody knows how to talk to anybody anymore.
I hope one day you meet the right person.
@@juliejewels9208 Thank you. I do too. Same to you if need be.
Wish you find a good guy.
Good luck in your search for a fulfilling marraige to a future man dude
A M E N. 😊
Am i the only one who thinks that, whether gay or straight, the term "lover" is kinda creepy? Maybe it's just pop culture of my childhood, but the term lover sounds so salacious (as opposed to boyfriend/girlfriend/partner). As someone who has spent a lot of time in both communities, i don't think i've ever heard someone cal their partner their "lover."
14:34 ole girl to the right of Phil in the black and white sweater almost fell out at the thought of gay men adopting lol
29 years ago when this episode aired
crazy
I just read somewhere that Rod and Bob split up after being married for 7 years. Bob married another guy Brian LeFurgey in Canada back in 2003. I'm not sure what Rod has been up to since then though!
Crazy looking back that it would take many years down the line for gay marriages to be legal, the mind set of people back than we’re crazy! Good for Donahue for having this topic before it’s time.
Really !? Look at this world today because of this crapp !!! It's ruined !!!
What crap!?
I enjoyed this episode in 2017.
Anyone know what the guy at 44:20 was talking about? He said something about, "How can the parents on the other side take possessions" or something like that.
Has ANYTHING changed in almost 30 years since this aired?! I hear the same support and judgement today.
It actually has changed in the US. Big time. Certainly not saying it's perfect but no way did any of my friends state they were gay back then. It started changing in the 90s and is now much more socially acceptable.
Um yah obviously
Donahue was always awesome. I remember when I was in 7th and 8th grade, but in 1977-1978, I have a study hall 2nd period and the teacher had the class room divided in two.....lots of desks way it the back if you had homework to do and just chairs and a TV way up in front. The teacher always had the Donahue show one and I realize how wonderful that was all these years later when so many states when to censor what kids can see and hear, especially on the topic of LGBTQ+ issues. I still vividly remember the Donahue episode with David Kopay.
Most people these days don't seem to realize that the "Donahue" show was the 1st Talk Show .
You're on EVERY video about gays or have a gay guy in it Geez pretty sad really
He wasn't the first but he absolutely was a trailblazer!
@@aussieblue8992 Then that would mean you, as well, are on every video with gays or a gay guy. Lol
@@forgottenpalace4472 Na just watch alot of talk show videos & everyone I've seen with gay guys in it this fella has said something.
Just find it odd.
@@aussieblue8992 Lol.
*We Did It Guys* !!
gts3004 we made it *honey* , we made it !!
+Anna Comloski Your idiocy is hilarious! The more your IQ plummets, the funnier you get!
I just want to know if that guy is Ryan Stiles.
DEE KNIGHTMAN Deal with it Babe 😎💋
+D “KONCIOUSBLKFEM” KNIGHTMAN 👎👎👎👎
So much courage these men had for fighting for their human rights. As a straight woman, I love watching these videos and documentaries so I can see how far we have come #standupforhumanrightsALWAYS
Getting married isn't a human right. LMFAO!
And aren't you happy you aren't them and that you live in easier time. But also you realise how people will think the same about us in 50 years. I mean we still haven't figured out we're all human.
Denise, I wish you were my friend.
You see this as a documentary you don't really care .
This was so damn interesting. I’ve nvr been against gay marriage rlly but I never truly understood the passion behind the push for it until this video
You never understood why people want equality?
Kudos to these two couples for breaking down barriers for the rest of the community.
Do you think lgbt pride has gone overboard at this point? These guys all seem like normal men who happen to be gay as opposed to my generation where they’re not as oppressed but way more insistent on making it their entire identity and pushing the limits of what ppl tolerate. Just my thoughts. I fully support regular ppl who are gay but the militant lgbt ppl are toxic for their groups image and just toxic in general lol
Hi thank you for this episode! I was wondering if you have the episode of Donahue with Bob and Rod talking to an audience of teenagers? I remember recording and watching that episode many, many times when I was young. Hope you respond.
Donahue continues to be the real deal for talk show.
Everyone keeps saying we've come a long way since this aired but 90 % of the audience is supportive of these guys. Maybe they weren't as closed minded as today's millennial ( most weren't even alive) think
Tbh millenials today tend to be more close minded on the leftist side specially
I always noticed watching Donahue that white audience was more accepting gay issues than race issues.
Phil Rocks!
This is back when talk show guests were allowed to talk, embellish and make their point. Today's talk shows are a series of one minute or less sound bites intermingled with one liners from the host and the applause sign to the audience. Television used to be a place where there were true intellectual discussions. Oprah's show in the beginning was more like Donahue but it too devolved into sound bites for the low information audience it caters to.
So glad dat things have changed 🏳️🌈🌈
Personally, as a straight person, I fully support Marriage Equality for the LGBT community and I am among those who were glad that it finally got legalized a few years ago. In having seen this video of the "Donahue" show about same-sex marriage, I had learned an important lesson on the meaning of the issue with great understanding.
Thank you!
My God, if I could inject that theme song directly into my veins I would.
1991. Oh yeah. This should be juicy😎
no idea why anyone of any gender or preferance would want the state involved in any part of their life, let alone your most intimate relationship.
Because there are legal ramifications, financial reasons and personal benefits.
@John Cenataur which is bullshit.
Sounds like something a Republican would say (lol)
@gbmpyzochwfdisurjklvanetxq Gay couples can adopt children, or they can have their own with a lesbian couple, or any female donor. Even without the children aspect, there are huge financial and legal ramification, insurance for health, life, legal wills, children is only one small aspect of this.
It's not a preference.
I was a high school senior when this episode aired, and I really admire Phil Donahue for talking about a subject which is still controversial (although same-sex marriage is now legal).
The coming out stories are actually kinda sweet
Sad that it took years for gay marriage to become legal.
34:00
That employee would've been fired for sure!
Lol
Just saw a little Oprah catch up about the lovely bodybuilder couple & they said after the Oprah interview (around this time) they had an absolutely awful time for about 5 years, which ended in their relationship ending, sad. These people started what people take for granted today (in many countries, not all), respect & love to them both xx.
The gays have been good looking since the dawn of time ! That couple is GORGEOUS! 😍😍😍😍😍😭😭😭😭😭
That 17 grew up to be a Karen
Im a straight guy but Rod and Bob is one hot couple lmao
They were also on Oprah talking about their relationship, Bob Paris ended up losing a lot of his career when he came out, him and Rod split and Bob’s been with someone else since then.
If you think that you aren’t straight lol. If you are married does your wife know you are attracted to men?
Im not attracted to men, but can tell when a man is good looking, and so can you!:) @@Pat6670
@@Pat6670Sure, because a random weirdo like you knows him better than himself.
sorry but in 1991 people were talking about gay marriage. it wasn't a new concept despite the laws. Even in the 80's there was talk.
Love the old lady @35:40 - 36:18. She was so very accepting and loving.
They are indeed gorgeous
"caller thinks she can still get aids from a doorknob"
Thanks!
So this is fun. So much outspoken support... why'd the politicians wait so damn long!?
Assuming it's a state-issue, and, assuming it's so easily reversed....
Why would they? Especially with the aforementioned support?
34 states banned gay marriage and Supreme Court force that bullshit on us😒
I am glad they did because now I have the same rights to marriage as my heterosexual counterparts.
Because the extremist minority who opposes it bitched and yelled the loudest over the years.
Poor poor you lol 😂
Phil Donahue was such a trailblazer for discussing topics such as lgbt issues, and race issues which were controversial back in the 80's and 90's. We've come a long way since '91 but we have a ways to go. Rod and Bob what a hunky attractive couple. 🥰🥰😍😍 RIP Patrick Gill 🙏❤
That first couple that tried to get a marriage license were fishing for a lawsuit. Lol
OMG the hairstyles!
They all look pretty basic to me.
I'm heterosexual male from one of the most homophobic countries in Europe today, yet when I was fucking 13yo (which was about the time this show was originally aired) I couldn't figure out what's wrong with two people getting married, regardless of their sexes.
Which country?
I agree I've always thought the same about race gender sexuality etc. Even as a child. Pple are so dumb.
@@harrison1430 Probably Poland or Russia
Ironically, Donahue would be considered a conservative at this point
Nah, I can't see him being a fascist.
@@Bc232klm you are an idiot. I hope you experience real fascism sometime
No he was given a job on MSNBC and is much more progressive than mainstream media can handle.
Correction: We, as Americans, have the right to 'do what we want in the privacy of our own homes'... As long as we don't get caught.
not anymore
Than you can kill sameone in your house.
So to the woman that says marriage is between two people, do you support polygamy?
Why isolate yourself in a room full of straight people and have to justify yourself to them?
i had a copy of that advocate!
As of June 26, 2015 it's called MARRIAGE. You can partake in it or not, regardless of your race or gender. Where's the problem? Don't like it? Lump it! Nobody cares about the precious feelings of hateful bigots. End or argument. Go home.
Bob Paris knew his chances for a mr Olympia win went up in smoke after this sht went viral I think Joe knew long before this show he was just hoping Bob would keep his mouth shut .but Bob didn't. 😢
Time was so difficult 😔 back then...
TIME has always been DIFFICULT. 😅
the second couple broke up and they were on Oprah. Oprah did a where are they now....and Bob looks very DIFFERENT and loss all his mass. What happened to the Blonde guy?
it's interesting how people say 'it's just a piece of paper, why fight so hard for it?' so would you willing to remove straight people's right to get married since it's only a piece of paper?
there's something about seeing people in love that makes me go all gooey inside and just well, happy :-)))
Love is love no Matter who it is two guys in love 😍 two women in love with 😍 each other or man and women 🥰 with each other it does not matter
Its always hilarious when minority groups reference the constitution, the constitution was not written for you, those people did not give a fuck about you, the fact that it says "Life and liberty for all" is completely irrelevant because that is not how the country operated for most of its history
Not saying this to oppose the arguments, got no problem with gay marriage, just framing the argument around what is says in the constitution is dumb because American history clearly indicates that what we read those words to mean today, is not what they meant when they were written
They fought a revolutionary war but kept a bunch of British Common Law in regards to homosexuality? So where exactly is the idea of "Life and liberty for all" applying to gay people suppose to come in?
Many people are confused about what reality is and what propaganda is.
Intersectionality. Before these men are gay, they are white. The constitution was written for white men during that time period.
I found this show to be refreshing. The fact that people could have an opinion and not be dragged on twitter for going outside of Big Brother’s social standards makes me wish we could go back to simpler times.
34:20
Good question.
only took 24 years
Bob Paris moved to Canada & got married. Is gay marriage still legal in the U.S. under Trump?
@honeybdream - What about Rod Jackson? What happened to him since he split from Bob Paris?
I do not support gay marriage, gay couples seem way to happy and the institution of marriage was never meant to be about happiness. It is meant to be a slow, hellish downward spiral into mutual resentment and animosity which tends to fester and build up with no constructive outlet. Then you grow so old you have no better options left anymore so you tend to find happiness then.
Lol you basically described my grandparents
I am sending my 3 dollars right now, I want the transcript.
MetisEhtheist I'm sending in a postcard for free tickets...
Each to their own but what one do in their bedroom and not spread their poison state of lifestyle to especially kids whom learn from adults then I think unexceptable behaviors have to be tolerated. DPitts
took 20 plus year
They seem like cool dudes