Ep. 132 | Survival Rifles
Vložit
- čas přidán 3. 07. 2024
- It’s about time we talk about survival rifles. What’s the deal with these things? They come in all shapes, sizes and even calibers, but yet never really seem to catch fire. In this episode, Ryan Muckenhirn joins Jimmy and Mark to discuss a bit of the history of survival rifles, many of the different kinds, what cartridge is the best for survival situations, what optic works best on a survival rifle, what the heck are we even preparing to survive in the first place, and much more!
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
Follow Vortex Nation Podcast on Instagram:
vortexnationpodcast
0:00 Ep. 132 | Survival Rifles
1:10:57 Bonus After-Cast
I still like Ryan’s enthusiasm. Trapping and snares work better than most. You are only as good as what you can carry and replenish. And yes I live in the PNW.
For those thinking about taking a 9mm instead of a .223 for weight savings, you might want to examine the weight of the ammunition. Because 9mm weighs more than .223 in standard grain weights.
Meanwhile 45 acp is just menacingly heavy.
I wouldn't want to run a 9mm or 223 in survival situation...I'm 22lr or 22mag
@@codyrivenburgh6007
22 short 😌
@@texaspatriot9159 now if u can find a good semi auto to reliably function with 22shorts you can carry hundreds of runs for the same weight as one 10 rn 223 mag....not a small game creature safe for a 100 miles of ur survival location 😂😂😂
@@codyrivenburgh6007
I am blessed to own 3 semi auto rifles that cycle shorts and long rifle very well.
Lol these squirrels better run and hide
For me a survival situation would be like the movie " Without a Paddle"or the book "Hatchet"
when i lived in a town 1000 miles from the next town of any real size, the survival rifle was what ever you kept in your car when you left the safety of the township itself and went out into the 4 deserts. the rifle of choice was a good quality accurate .22lr bolt action. (most common was effectively a cz zkm452e2)
if you broke down, you usually knew all the water sources between where you were and town, so the only thing you needed to do was shoot rabbits and other game up to the size of a small donkey, and you could walk between water sources on your way back to town, even if it was 70 miles away. chances were that you would run into someone at a water source anyway.
(we also had a winch, tool kit, spare belts and hoses, 4 gallons of water, and a bbq plate that doubled as a "get out of a bog plate".)
preparation means the survival rifle you have is the one you need for the trip, not the one you thought you might need 10 years ago when you bought it.
Where was this located, if you don’t mind sharing?
@@scotteger6271 Alice Springs in the center of Australia. other aspect to consider was, any time you went out of town, it was a chance to do some target shooting and maybe get a couple of rabbits, so you always had the rifle with you.
the only reason to have the rifle is comfort on the trip back to town. you dont need to eat for up to 30 days, its just nice to have as much for mental health as for physical endurance.
It used to be law that you had to carry matches, a knife and a compass when in the woods in NB, Canada in the days before cell-phones. It might still be.
Star Wars was a project during Regan’s time that was to use satellite based lasers to take down intercontinental ballistic misiles before re-entry into the atmosphere.
I thought it was using heavy weight tungsten rods?
I think you guys kind of nailed it at the end…having a combination of firearms on your person affords you the best of both worlds. A rimfire/centerfire rifle or shotgun and a handgun in a holster, for the times when you need to defend. Plus you should always carry a flashlight, but in my example you could get by with a pistol mounted light.
USAF and USSF have a survival AR today that folds and breaks down. The GAU-5A by Midwest Industries with a 12.5" barrel.
I always have my AR7 with me in my truck. I can keep 100 extra rounds in the same space as 1 mags of double stack 9mm. Granted I also always have a 9mm with me. But 9mm for protection and 22 for mostly quiet hunting with lots of light ammo.
I have a savage 24, 30-30 and 20 gauge with a synthetic stock I think would be pretty handy in a survival situation.
I wonder about that. What can you shoot with a 30-30 single shot you couldn't shoot with a 20 gauge sabot out of say a modern over under? In most parts of this country if you have the time you can kill it with buck or slugs. If you have shot shells you can cut them and with shot cards cut from cardboard or some candles you can make hillbilly slugs or whatever. So to me there is not a scenario where I'd rather have anything other than a good shotgun and a bunch of shells
Add to it I think in most cases having two 20 gauge shells is more useful than one and rifle back up
@@pbgd3 What you could do is have an over-under 20 gage and have an insert that let you shoot like 357 magnum
It would be handy. 30-30 would give you some reach and you still have the shotgun option. I carried a .22-.410 savage 24 in my youth and it was a good basic gun. If I remember right it broke down pretty small too.
That would be a fantastic survival rifle Bradley.
Under barrel scatter gat for the AR solves the the small fast(moving) food problem
That is one of the greatest episodes! I truly enjoy your banter.
I'm going to go hypothetical on this for the sake of "what if."
Imagine a lightweight folding 10/22 style rifle. Semi automatic, but chambered in 5.7x28. You'd have a cartridge that could fall into defensive use, light weight, high ammo capacity, and could carry a large amount of spare ammo in a very small package. It would also be capable of taking medium size game and have a high degree of accuracy. You could also have the benefit of ammo variety from V-max ammo for hunting small game, to more solid types of projectile for defensive use or medium game needing the deeper penetration. Another benefit is that a common lightweight 22lr suppressor should also work if more discreet work would be necessary.
Couldn’t all that be accomplished with the 22lr? Plus ammo weight vs # of rounds the 22 or wins hands down.
@@russherbert839 You can argue that a .22 can do anything, but once it’s fired, the 5.7 has a lot more going for it than a .22. Honestly just a PS90 with a loaded magazine would be a fantastic survival rifle. When you’re only carrying 50-100 rounds rather than 200+, weight of ammunition is a lot less important than just bulk and the fact that you need somewhere to carry it. With a P90 it’s just already there ready in the gun
@@JohnMaxGriffin valid points for sure, I think this probably is a personal choice more than anything. I just imagine more small game being shot in a survival situation than big game. They’re usually easier to locate and harvest.
That would be great, but good luck finding 5.7x28.
@@joegschwind431 just checked, SG has 4 cases of 500 rounds in stock right now. I’m sure people can figure out how to get two mags worth of it
One nice thing about 22LR is the suppressor would be interchangeable between pistol and rifle.
BTW - Kevin Bacon is in EVERY movie.
is he in Toy Story?
Great podcast guys !!
Definitely got my gears going
They do make longer barrel inserts that are like 12 inches long and rifled. I like the idea of a 223 with a 22lr insert over 12g with a bunch of different calibers inserts.
I worked in a gun shop for a few years and before I left we had a Luftwaffe Drilling in 16 gauge and 9.3x74R come in. I was the neatest gun. Had double hammers for the shotgun barrels and a Striker mechanism for the rifle barrel.
I'm an avid rafter/backcountry person and my go to "survival" firearm is my 10mm Glock G40 with a Holosun 508T on it in a Kenai chest-holster... I feel more then comfortable with that set up. If I can take it I'll take my single-shot 12-gauge and I often just throw my AR7 in my big Dry-bag because its so small and light. Down here in town in Oregon and traveling out to Idaho to our property I have a 7.62 AK with me... Portland is getting crazy enough to need that AK punch as of late and I can always hunt with it too.
During the Northridge earthquake in California in the mid-90s, my roommate lived near the epicenter in the valley and he said in less than a week people started looting. None of the neighbors where he was were looking out for each other, and their house only had two rooms left functional. There was no running water, and the nearest store that wasn't sold out of anything was over 2 hours away. Every time his dad had to make the drive to get groceries or supplies to last the next few days he was alone for 5 to 6 hours in a completely open house during a time when people were desperate enough to loot anything they saw. Every time this happened his dad made him stay in the house with a 12 ga to make sure nothing was stolen.
So survival situations definitely happen... However, I suspect most people (including myself) wouldn't think of a 12 gauge pump shotgun as a survival gun; but it definitely was.
I think the idea of Little Badger is that it and the ammo can be easily kept in a hiker's backpack. If they are caught out in a freak snowstorm and have to survive for a week or two it can help with very low inconvenience factor.
My interest in it is that is a very light simple plinking or small game rifle which even someone with weak arms could enjoy.
The powder cauterize trick works as long as you have enough powder that is dry. If it gets wet by the blood, it won’t ignite.
I may know someone who went rabbit hunting didn't find anything so wasted their shells on random garbage. Then seen a rabbit on the way back to the truck, all he had ammo left for was the 40 sw on his hip. Took the shot at about 25 yards, actually didn't tear up the meat that bad, still ate it. So, a 9mm would be just fine if you can shoot decent and keep it in a decent range. I practice with a spinning prairie dog target I'm my yard at about 30 yards (because that is the distance from my front porch to the target, yeah lazy fun).
Having to walk out of the wilderness I'd prefer an 1895 Marlin Guide Gun or WWG Takedown conversion. 45-70 actually doesn't mess up small Game too bad and you can single load 410 shotshells.
Love the office reference. Best show ever!
my 12 ga inserts are 18 inches long,I have a 45 70, a 762 x 39, and a 357 max. Mine are from an American co. called Chaszel. But Chiappa makes them too.
Also look up Rossi 410/45 revolver rifle shotgun.... 5 shots of 410 or 45lc in a rifle/shotgun with a 5 round cylinder. Like a revolver.
For the 12g inserts, they also make 8in rifled inserts in 22, 380, 9mm, 45colt/410g.
Sounds like the best solution is to have SOMETHING with you. Something you know how to use, and some ammo.
I lean toward the shotgun option, because shotguns will "eat anything".
A couple answers to your space-gun questions: first, a bullet will not continue accelerating once it has left the barrel because there is no force acting on the bullet once its propellant gasses have dispersed behind the bullet. So yes, Ryan, it will reach its maximum velocity right at the end of the barrel and then maintain its velocity unless acted on by an outside force. Also, you're not going to hit yourself with a bullet if you shoot it in space because there is essentially a 0% chance of your bullet being fired with the perfect velocity and angle for the bullet to go around the earth, not hit any other space debris, and maintain its altitude above the earth in order to hit you.
Muzzle velocity in space (assuming similar powder combustion as on earth) would be slightly higher since there is no longer a column of air to push out of the barrels; that’s about it. Assuming no obstacles, you find that the bullet would have to travel 25,900 ft/s at perihelion about 325000m above as not to fall to earth.
I think my go to would be the m6 in 22lr/.410, this would cover the game getting aspect in a nice light package. I don’t go anywhere without a pistol anyway, so I would have that for any self defense needs.
Epic needs a part two . FYI savage model 24 and later model 42 is the best selling survival riffle ever the m6 doesn’t even come close despite its military heritage . Calibre is personal choice in a survival situation I’d choose 7.mm08 over 12 g and have a rim fire insert for the 12 g 3calibres 😎 cheers
Mines a short barrel suppressed Rossi single shot in .357 that breaks down similar to a shotgun.
A 50 box of ammo isn't all that big or heavy and a mix of shot shells, .38s and full house 357s takes down a myriad of game.
It's my most carried rifle as it's so handy and fun.
It's always a little odd finally putting a face to a voice. I first started listening while driving across Canada for work in January, as I was only listening on my phone I always thought Ryan was much older, just by the depth of his voice and the way he talks. Adding to that he has the knowledge you'd expect from somebody in their late 50's. I was very surprised to see that he is much younger than I thought.
Agreed. His age does not reflect his knowledge base… in the BEST way!
works great
Savage model 24, 17HMR over 20 ga. with Holosun solar dot.
T/C 45/410 for wilderness stuff,,. Nice set up.
Aero survival rifle from TNW. Designed for bush pilots, quickly converts to about 8 different pistol calibers, and it all fits in one backpack. I've got one of those with a vortex strike eagle 1-6× and i have the kits for 9mm, 10mm, and 45 acp
In my experience the best cartridge for that setup is 357 Sig in terms of performance it is awesome
The .22LR is cost-effective. Readily available in most towns, cities, etc. Very portable. A good rifle with a 4x or 8x scope is deadly accurate at 25, 50 even 100yds. I hunt squirrels and rabbits with it. With the new suppressors, a good survival rifle with a good scope would be a heckofa head-shot sniper rifle in a wooded or even urban setting...at ranges mentioned. I mean, as long as we're fantasizing here. Plus, it will be the Chinese, not the Russians.
My choice is a old 12 guage pump and box of shells locked up in the truck. In the box 5 slugs, 5 buckshot, the rest in 6 or 5 bird shot. If you can't make it a couple weeks with that, or back to civilization, you're in a terrible situation. But if I go hiking my keltec pmr 30 in 22 wmr,, it's lightweight and accurate for small game up to 30 yards and I load the mags to 25 (it can go to 30 but it messes with reliability for me) so that's 50 rounds. It's all situational, depends on where you live as well.
I wish the cz 527 in 223 had an option to swap in a rimfire firing pin bolt....you could get a couple of those 223 to 22lr/ 22 magnum caliber adapters and have the capability to take anything from mice to deer reliably...and probably larger game if lucky.....You could chop it down, fassion a lightweight folding stock, and you have something close to the old M4 Survival rifle. A seperate rimfire bolt and a couple of adapters cant weigh all that much, and its a repeatet...swap back to 223 with a bolt and magazine swap lickety split.....i would pair that with a pump 12 gauge and some sub gauge adapters, and carry a few 12 guage Brenneke slugs for bear defense, and a mix of 12, 20, and maybe even some 410 bird shot...to cut down on weight. With that setup I could go just about anywhere on the globe and be decently equipped to defend myself and eat.
1:04:36
So... Your favorite shotgun, stock/barrel/etc...
In a custom. Tube, replicating the JIC mariner concept, but without the compromise of the pistol grip.
7.5 ar upper with 22 conversion and magazine done
@vortex Both the scenarios using the 22 bullet will work. Multiple survival books and trainers tell you how to remove the bullet from the case and use the powder to start a fire, and how to use said powder to stop bleeding.
I grew up ranching and I always had a 22 pistol and a mini-14 in the truck. I almost NEVER needed the mini-14. A 6” Browning Buckmark in 22lr will kill anything whitetail sized and smaller with just a little stealth and practice. Back then I’d shoot 500 rounds at trash in the creek per week through my little pistol and that sucker is LETHAL.
23:15
I'm with you.
90% with you.
I really think, in this case, the smallest tool that will get the job done.
It won't handle enemy armoured... But, that's a very different tool. Anyway.
Honestly the AR-15 is and will always be my fighting and survival rifle.
To answer the comment about shooting a firearm in space. Take your ballistic calculation and remove effects from atmosphere and that's the behaviors you will see until gravity pulls the projectile in to the atmosphere.
I think it was Dave Canterbury ( or maybe it was that other guy) that used powder to cauterize a wound and Les Stroud did the starting a fire with a cartage bit.
Think about the Alaskan bush pilot. Doesn't want to carry much weight because that's more pounds of cargo they can carry and thus more money they can make (or more fuel). And if they go down, they might not be found for months, especially if they go down in October.
Being in Alaska, I have my 9mm always on my person, with one extra loaded mag in the truck and 75 rounds of ammo in an ammo can in the back seat. And when I go out of town, I always have my 270 with two boxes of ammo. Plan on getting a FN 510 as my dedicated truck and wilderness handgun, and am going to purchase a decent AR-15 for a dedicated truck rifle.
The USAAF in WW II issued the Stevens 22-410 (which later became the Savage 24). When I was in the AF in the 60s-70s we had 2 different take-down 22 hornets, 1 single shot and 1 with a detachable mag. Also the M6 22 hornet over 410. The Armalite was never actually adopted. They proposed the AR-5, a bolt action hornet. When the AF didn't bite they developed it into the AR-7.
All these Red Dawn/Zombie Apocalypse scenarios are just fantasy. I was hoping to hear some real recommendations. BTW those chamber inserts are cool but not very accurate.
The Acog would probably be a good site, no battery illuminated site very durable in my experience and small and light weight. Also the Ps90 is a great hunting rifle it has about the same effect on game as a 22 mag. but accurate enough to hit at 300m and you could cary 1000 rounds easily.
they should build the inserts with built in silencer. easy to do, and would make a lot more sense than the straight inserts...with no accuracy
29:24
I have one of those 32acp (7.65 Browning) inserts for my 30-06 is very accurate with the right ammo, and excellent for rabbit, squirrel, and varmint hunting.
The lighter grain bullets go supersonic, but the heavier loads travel subsonic (72gr?)
TNW Aero Survival Pistol, available in multiple calibers from 22lr up to 460 Rowland in separate platforms but also capable of converting within those platforms to shoot different calibers. Glock mag compatible. Quickly breaks into 2 pieces that are readily storable/concealable. Barrel threaded for a suppressor. All aluminum constructed receiver so light weight. Compatible with AR furniture for flexibility. Integral picatinny rail that can mount a variety of sights and set up to mount additional rails in other locations for mounting of accessories like lights. Mines in 45ACP but the same platform can shoot 10mm or 460 Rowland with just a barrel change and/or possibly a bolt face change. Magpul flip up sights and an Eotech for optic. Lots of high cap cheap Glock mags.
Into the wild ryan
Clearly it’s all dependent on what and where you are going as well as how you store it.
-ATV trip
-bush plane
-boat
-remote boat
-visiting a cabin in the woods
-trip to the space station
Shotgun is a terrible choice on the way to the space station, but great on a quad trip.
16;50
part of maximum velocity of a bullet is the drag of air on the bullet.
we call that aerodynamics )))
with no air, no drag.
Get home bag
Ar 15 with a 5.56 upper and a 458 socom upper , side arm glock 10mm game over
Ruger scout or styer scout in 308
Savage 24 30-30/20 gauge o/u
I keep a browning buck mark camper in my truck with a spitfire on it and 50 rounds of 40 grain cci quite-22
I would use my M590A1. Easy to find 12ga, and it'll cycle anything I put in it. Or get the Shockwave, apply for the SBS stamp, and put like the Magpul SGA stock on it. Then you have a more portable version of the most dependable military shotgun
My into the wild gun would be a Merkel 96K with 20/20 shotgun barrels and a 22 hornet rifle barrel. I have a dream of going ptarmigan and capercaille hunting here in the north of sweden with one of those.
A survival rifle to me is something to hold me over until I am rescued....extracted.....or home safely on my own. The AR 7 did see adventure by the way
Sub 8lb set up:
Red dot 9mm handgun with 2 magazines.
1 box of 9mm ammo gets 25+ inches of penetration in a gel block. (Dangerous game) 1 box of 147 HST (anti personnel/deer)
Keltec cp33 with 2 mags, prism optic mounted 2 inches or higher, with suppers or
150 rounds of federal punch and 150 rounds of subsonic.
I think a 7.5 Bruno round would make an excellent survival rifle :)
Nemesis Arms Vanquish is a take down rifle that shoots big center fire rounds that can be packed easily.
I looking for the rossi trifecta. You get I lower with a .22 a 20 Guage and a .243. I have a 10/22 backpacker with a crossfire 2-4 and a ar-7
9mm revolver with moon clips. Carry 100rds pretty easy with a clip each of CCi Big4 and CCi snake/rat shot and the rest as ball/hp ammo. Super accurate, concealable, versatile, powerful enough. And if I can add a rifle: 10-22TD Suppressed. Discretion advised
Is it the LCRX that doesn't need the moon clip? You'd be better off not needing it
Nice conversation
Thanks for tuning in :)
Another point, all airports are gun free zones unless you're a cop. Private plans are not built like jet liners. Those little single engine planes have very thin skins covering the cabins.
Thinking about a ruger charger project.
Don't forget on the Black List that Reddington carries a gorgeous Belgium Hi-Power 😍
I’m thinking 357 rifle. It’s got more covered for me.
How about 22/12G over-under with the inserts, and put some night sights it! That's the game charger right there.
NEF 410/45lc, it just works. It is on the heavy side though.
The answer on what you said about shooting a gun in space its the second. It will accelerate as long as a force is acting on it. So it would get up to speed from the pressure in the barrel, then a bit more since there will still be expanding gas behind it, then stop at that speed and just maintain it unless it hits something, particles slow it, or like you said gravity pulls it off course. OR it is heated too much by the sun and the lead inside melt or off gases from vaporizing and then it would throw it off course.
22 long rifle copper jacket at hollow point very effective and very deadly
How about the Chiappa M6, 12 gauge over .22, with inserts for the shotgun barrel?
Why is Dr. Strange talking about using puny guns when he could just use his spells?
;-)
Baikal 308 over 12ga or savage 24C (22 over 20ga), or about 10 other choices. 22wmr carbine might be a good compromise
I have a model 24 in .22 over 20 gauge. It would definitely be my go to in a survival situation.
12 gauge brings down anything at a higher success rate for food. Heavy ammo, tho.
Di they test the 56:10 firestarter method yet?
Dave Canterbury on dual survival burned a wound shut with black powder. In open air I think smokeless powder burns too slow.
I have the 3 in inserts for 9mm 10mm and 357/38 for my 20 gauge single shot. They are very inaccurate inside of like 20 yards and past that they are worthless. Just throwing that out. Good luck hitting small game.
Mark is correct... there was a 'star wars' military project (1980's) that was supposed to be designed to shoot down incoming nuclear missiles, mosty from soviet Russia (cold war program)...
medium barrel length .357 revolver. rat shot for birds close by or other small game. 357 for defense against other two leg creatures. Last thing I would want to do is get in a defensive situation with a single shot firearm. .357 can take anything on this earth with the right placement. Heck even a glock with standard ammo and ratshot would work well. I just wouldn't want a single shot firearm by any means.
Agreed betting your life on a single perfect shot against a charging animal is a foolish choice. If not the choice of someone who has never had close encounter with a wild animal. Professionals hunters do not engage dangerous game alone or use single shot firearms.
Handgun shot shells are so ineffective they won't kill even small birds past 10 to 12 feet. You can't push shot through a rifled barrel and get any kind of pattern. Go try it and post the results.
Throw out the bird shot, replace with 38 wadcutter for small game. Doesn't destroy the meat and really accurate.
Remember, bullets have their own oxidizer built-into the powder compound. I don't even know if it would necessarily need air in the cartridge to combust. It would probably change the combustion characteristics, but it may just work.
Speaking on the 410 slug viability. There is zero reason I can think of between a 110gr 410 slug vs the average 45 long colt round averaging about 220gr. And for those wondering, 410 and 45LC are interchangeable cartridges when you're talking about 2.5in 410 shells. If a gun is 45LC chambered, the 3" 410 shell will get stuck in the chamber once it opens the crimp.
I would take a lever action like a browning bl, or henry with a short barrel. I do not like guns in two parts they don't shoot in that condition. Also I would use good iron sites for sturdiness. 2nd choice would be a 22 lr revolver with a 6 inch barrel.
Were not the early settlers in the West pretty much surviving through the winter and on a day to day? .....so flint locks and later cap lock trade rifles were the original American survival rifle.
And, a lot of them died for a multitude of reasons.
If you have a Roni, you might as well have a short barrel PCC. Same space same ammo only a little more weight
My buddies and I have these same conversations but much more alcohol is consumed!!!
If you want a real conservation of ammo and multi use- I'd have an AR with a 22lr conversion. That way you can carry enough centerfire and a magazine and couple boxes of 22lr for small game.
For survival a savage 24 22mag over 20g is a pretty cool combo
Chiappa xcaliber cannot shoot 22lr, 12 gauge and 7 different pistol cartridges. It uses inserts. Pretty awesome firearm.
FN5.7 pistol would fit nicely in a lot of the senario's mentioned.
or the ps90 i have hunted with that gun.
The 223 rounds make a good little survival weapon you can get them with a short barrel on them collapsible stock or a fold-up stock and you can get them with a copper jacket and hollow point or copper jacket and soft point lightweight ammunition you can carry a bunch of them they come in a small box easy to carry ammunition
If my car breaks down and I'm in the middle of nowhere with woods either a Remington 870 12-gauge or a Ruger 10/22. But if it's a Red Dawn situation AR-15 either in 556 or 308.