The Seanchan - A Culture Examination (The Wheel of Time)
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2018
- My Examination of the Seanchan from the Wheel of Time.
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The Seanchan are not a predominately Black Race Tuon and by extension the Royal family are Black but the descriptions of the Seanchan show all the races of Randland
Yeah but the major Seanchan are Black, I mean it is kind of tone deaf.
I think the implication would be that Artur Hawkwing (the must successful military leader and ruler of the third age before the start of the series) was black due to the royal family's bloodline being kept as pure as possible
@@tinamoul Tone deaf if you're looking at the 14 book series through the most myopic lens available while simultaneously ignoring every other negative aspect of every other culture. Shara are not described as dark skinned, but they trade heavily in slaves. The Seafolk are often described as dark-skinned. No slaves there and it's a matriarchal society. Saldaean culture encourages mutual domestic abuse. Isolating the Seanchan--literally one group out of dozens--is not only offensive, it's intellectually repugnant.
@@tinamoul Ever check A Song of Ice and Fire's Summer Isles people and the description of their nobility, lol? I put down the book after that, lol.
@@mamboking0134 It shows you did, after all, it looks like you never heard of Dorne.
One of the most downright terrifying moments in the Wheel of Time for me is this little scene in The Great Hunt, with a captured, collared Egwene, and her sul'dam captor. Egwene in a moment of anger contemplates hitting her sul'dam over the head with a pitcher of water, the A'dam around Egwene's neck reacts to this by preventing her from touching the pitcher. She has to convince herself that she would never harm someone with a pitcher, that it would be silly before she is able to touch the pitcher again. It takes her a week to do this. That kind of mind control is beyond terrifying, it's almost the creepiest thing ever.
Yeah, but since it was Egweyne I didn't mind that much.
That kind of evil I wouldn't want to wish on anyone, not even(!) a character I disliked.
Not even Elaida?
Sr Imposible Not even Elaida; she put her ambition before most everything else, but did at least believe she was doing what was necessary to fight the dark one; however misguided she was, she wasn’t evil.
And anyway it doesn’t matter what someone has or hasn’t done; no-one has the right to commit the crimes the Seanchan do against channellers.
When you are dealing with sapient weapons of mass destruction, you can do one of two things, this excludes the Aes Sedai and their Three Oaths., revere them as the Aiel do. Or find a method to control them. Keep in mind channelers, especially the ones the early Seanchan dealt with could and did use Domination upon people, which is just as horrible as the A'dam and such training. then there is the Balefire question, could a legend of it have presisted until the leashing of the Damane in early Seandar. That is a weapon far more horrifying than nuclear weapons, which we here in the real world would willingly turn a blind eye to a little torture being done to keep such weapons out of the hands of people who would use them in the fashion the unibomber did mail bombs.
Taking these facts into considerisation, it is not immoral for a People to do as the Seandchan have done. We here in the real world willfully call upon our own governments to use treaties and sanctions to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of the Iranians. And while the methods, known to the public at large, and do remember only a few select types of people were allowed around Damanes during training, and far fewer into the kennels so to follow that logic any top secret operations used to keep nuclear materials could be considered "kept to the kennels" in damane training terms. Also remember no beginnings or ends, and that Aes Sedai means "Servants of All" in very strong terms, and the Seanchan have proven to be an adaptive people.
The Seanchan are actually my favorite Wheel of Time culture. I mean, I would want them dead if they really existed, but in fiction they are utterly marvelous.
They are arguably the most detailed culture in the books, either as detailed or even more detailed than the Aiel, but we learn about only a small part of their nation.
The Seanchan came actually when the omens said that the final battle was near, and were fully expecting a unified Randland under a defendant of Artur Hawkwing. Only when they came back to find a fragmented and warring continent did they begin an invasion. “The Return” was supposed to be them uniting with Arthur Hawkwing’s main empire to fight the final battle, which is why they got so upset with people for “forgetting” that (and why they made everyone swear the paths).
And the Seanchan created an incredible system of stability, they are so much better at helping their people that it almost breaks Rand. While at the same time the Seachan upper class plays the game of houses more than the entirety of the rest of the world, which keeps their ruling class on its toes and keeps it from becoming lazy. Their army, even though it’s undefeated, never becomes overconfident, instead learning from every battle they fight, no matter if they won or lost. So the continual rebellions they put down every generation or so (inevitable for an empire so large over the course of a thousand years), strengthen the army by giving it experience instead of weighing it down.
Also, another note that the Seanchan will collapse because (after the final battle) channeling doesn’t exist, and controlling channelers are the basis of Seanchan control, since selling new damane is the Crystal Throne’s primary source of income.
@@diepie5144 it's only Rand that burned out his ability to channel after the last battle, right? Other people can still channel.
@@saeedajaib the way I interpreted it was that channeling itself was fundamentally changed to the point where it can be said that it's no longer channeling. So instead of channeling the One Power, people could manipulate the world in the same way Rand does in the epilogue. I have no clue if that's actually the canon but that's what I thought it was.
@@diepie5144 oh, i thought that was only Rand. Because Flynn and Nyneave tried healing Rand and for him it did not work but for others it did. I thought Perrin brings Faile to Nyneave for healing after he finds her.
There is Aviendha's vision of the future conflict between the Seanchan and Aiel. That was a nice way of exploring the cultures and show that the future would not be all tree-hugging after the Last Battle...
It was a possible future, one Aviendha was specifically given a vision about to prevent from coming to pass because it ultimately meant the end of the Aiel. A warning that if the Aiel continued on their ways they would face extinction. Which is why Aviendha warned Rand about it and he included the Aiel in the Dragon's Peace.
I would have loved to have read the meeting between Hawkwing and Tuon when Matt sent him to talk to her at the end of his part of the final battle 🤔
My theory there is that Hawkwing would be aghast about the keeping of da'covale (regular slaves), but he hated Aes Sedai so much that he might consider damane (channeling slaves) and say "Well..."
@@hoi-polloi1863
I don't think so. This is immortal hero Hawkwing with the full context of all his many lives, not the Ishamael-twisted Hawkwing who ordered channeller genocide. His first reaction to seeing Rand in The Great Hunt was "Hey, Lews Therin. Nice to see you again.", not "DIE VILE WITCH!" and he didn't seem to mind Verin being there either. He probably still isn't a fan of the White Tower, and likely approves of the way Tuon's raid knocked them down a few pegs, but I don't think he'd be on board with the absolutely horrifying way his descendants treat channellers.
@@DankworthBalthazar Agreed that Hawkwing has more perspective now. I'm not sure how much of his dislike of AS was Ishamael's doing and how much his own, but you do make a strong argument. I'll have to ruminate on it...
I think people, including Daniel, put FAR too much emphasis on Ishamael's influencing of Hawkwing for his hostility to the Aes Sedai.
Remember HOW the Aes Sedai treated Hawkwing? They expected him to BOW before them, because THEY were "Aes Sedai".
Remember that the Aes Sedai were so Horrified by the Amyrlyn Seat's treatment of Hawkwing that they eventually Stilled her?
So, arguably, the ones MOST responsible for the Seanchan's attitude to Women who can Channel, are the Aes Sedai themselves.
Is that "Justice" or "Balance"?
Note: The Seanchan actually returned before Ebou Dar - Suroth took over Tarabon shortly after Elayne and Nynaeve left the city. They kept a tight lid on it, but some rumors did get out. They also captured the Whitecloak citadel prior to Ebou Dar.
Undoubtedly though, the landing in Ebou Dar was the main attack, prior to the actual Return.
I don’t...think...the Seanchan are all black. Several of them are described as being pale with blue eyes. At least where I am right now
I misspoke! Majority of the royalty are black.
Daniel Greene Makes sense. I kinda drew conclusions that the Imperial line and most of the Blood are black. Another great one! Will you examine all of the peoples of the WoT?
It's been awhile for me, but... I thought they were supposed to be Asian. I thought the bug-shaped helmets were samurai. I think I remember descriptions of their eyes as narrow and/or angled or something. Am I misremembering?
On the other hand, the Sea Folk are described as having dark dark skin. I thought they were black-skinned.
Neil B The Blood (the Imperial family) are described as black. The Shienarans and other borderland nations all have Asian influence.
It depends on the area. It's a multicultural empire, much like Rome.
I love the Seanchan. They were the most stable form of civilization. The outrigger novels where Tuon and Mat fix the place up would have been a blast.
I think Matt would help those changes move faster too. As his position is extremely high, and he is huge on personal freedom.
As much as I disliked Elaida, when she is captured by the Seanchan it bugged me. For one, I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy. For two, I was hoping Egwene would get the satisfaction of removing her.
The best part about the Seanchan is that they came up with a logical solution to the problem of powerful magic users.
The reason Aes Sedai on the mainland became a stabilizing force was that they all accepted the 3 oaths and then squashed any other organizations that allowed open channeling.
The Seanchan had to deal with multiple groups of powerful channelers with no reason to restrain themselves. This is inherently horrifying as seen by the scenes where the Seanchan engage in battle.
It is obvious the author really put some time into considering the effects of powerful magic users running rampant. Such a setting would naturally result in either anarchy or dictatorship/strict regulation by a governing body...
Except that the Aiel managed to survive by limiting channeling via tradition. Which says a lot about them as a civilization.
Geordin Soucie the practice of collaring women who could channel actually can be traced back to Arthur Hawkwing who absolutely hated “The Witches of Tar Valon”. And someone (I can’t remember who) can you with a collar that could be used to control them.
@@diepie5144 I don't think that even Hawkwing would have bound such people to his will like that. I think that was something Ishamael planted in the son of Hawkwing when he went across the oceans. Because that is some twisted shit. I think that initially Hawkwing was ok with Aes Sedei until Bonwen pissed him off.
But I do understand what the OP means, there are three ways that these extremely powerful anomalies (like 2% of humans) can be put in society. Either A) They end up ruling, as a super elite. (What the Sharans do). B) They become enslaved by the rest of the people which isn't perfect since the only ones who can control channelers are channelers themselves. Or C) what most of the people that we see in the Wheel of Time do, they stand slightly outside of the power structure. Like Aes Sedei can maneuver but they do not rule anywhere besides Tar Valon. The Wise Ones advise the Clan Chiefs and usually get their way but they do not have complete control. And the Wind Finders have a similar station as the Wise Ones as advisers and those that guide the Sea Folk Ships. But they take it a step further where a Wind Finder will be reset to nothing after the normal person they advised dies.
The Aiel managed that thanks to Ji'e'toh
I always took the "beetle like armor" and the absolute adherence to class and family structures and honor codes of an island nation to be highly representative of feudal Japan
Lots of the cultures seem to have varied pieces from what we know
Every time it's a Seanchan POV, my skin crawls.
Ah, saying such things could make you a cup bearer Daniel.
The Seanchan have a fascinating culture, and I think they lend dark realism to the books.
Love watching these. You can make talking about any WoT related topic interesting to hear.
One thing I hate is Artur Hawkwing never encountered his descendants after either horn blow. What would he think of his legacy? The wheel considers him a hero. But his legacy is an abomination. Would have loved to read him putting his legacy into its proper place.
Didn't Mat take Tuon to meet him after the last battle? You're right, it would have been great to hear that conversation.
@Mike Dalby His legacy is the seanchan empire, which only exists because of the worst kind of slavery imaginable and is the most facistic nation in the known world. So yeah, I'd call that an abomination. Not the hero himself, but the twisted remains of his empire.
@Mike Dalby dont they treat their fenale channelrs like objects and slaves? That's pretty fucked up imo and yeah i agree with the dude. They are war mongers, arrogant, and practice slavery.
@Mike Dalby Wow, trying to justify slavery and torture. Has every other culture committed suicide because of their channelers? No. You're just wrong.
@Mike Dalby Go back and read the great hunt and imagine being egwane. And then being told you being utterly broken is for the greater good, somehow. Yes, they impose order. Order with the sword. Nobody has any rights, everyone's lives is subject to the whim of the empress, who literally uses a mind control ter'angreal.
A lot of the Sea Folk are black. Jordan didn't skimp when it came to fleshing out any of his WoT cultures, even the minor ones.
He kinda did, where are the Central and East Asians? The Hispanics?
@@AlbanAwan A lot of the borderland nations are Asian-inspired, but I said he put a lot into fleshing out the cultures in his world as in the details that distinguish them from one another. I never claimed he used every group on Earth as a basis, but it is likely there is also some Hispanic-based peoples and cultures in there. It has been a few years since my last read through and I just woke up, so you'll forgive me if I don't have ready examples.
@@AlbanAwan The Sharans seem somewhat Chinese to me. While I could easily see the Caherin as Japanese like. I also always got the impression that the Seafolk were Indians. Oh and also the Seachan are a multi ethnic empire their royals are black. Its entirely possible that they have East Asian or Native Ameican troops(ethnically). As for Hispanic why would that exist? The Hispanic ethnicity was formed due to Spanish colonialism. Nothing like that has happened as of the end of the books. So the ethnicity wouldn't exist yet.
@@AlbanAwan Referring to where primary influence was taken:
Shara is a combination of China and Africa, Seanchan has Persian, Ottoman and East Asian parts, Atha'an Miere has Indonesian, Sub-Saharan African and South Indian parts, Malkier is Himalayan, Illian is greek (& some Dutch), Altara is Italian, Arad Doman is Arabic, Tear is Spanish (and some French), Tarabon is Mediterranean, Saldea has Mongolian influence and there are other more examples ...
I very much like these culture examinations. It combines my love of history with my love of fantasy world building.
Watching these now that the show is in progress. The Seanchan's beliefs about themselves in relation to the rest of the world reminds me of Manifest Destiny.
Very articulate, well reasoned presentation. I see a bright future for you. Good work!!!
I think it was intended that the conflict with the Seanchan after the last battle was what Jordan had in mind for a few action packed novels.
Robert Jordan said the inspiration for the Seanchan was ancient China & Imperial Japan. A little bit of African culture is thrown in as well, but I imagine them as predominantly Asian looking. I don't at all perceive them to be a predominantly black culture. Seanchan is on the equator, so probably the people of Seanchan who live in the equator area have that darker skin, but further north is where people have pale skin. The Sea Folk & Amayar are, to me, the straight black-skinned culture. Shara gives me African vibes as well (Shara - Sahara), in fact Kigali is the name of an actual city somewhere in Africa. I like to personally think Shara is predominantly Indian/Cambodian/Thai/Vietnamese though, with undertones of sub-saharan cultures.
I got the same thing. All over. Was feeling a bit confused with my own estimation until I read this 🤙
Culturally they may have Chinese, imperial Japanese, and Sub Saharan influences, but racially they are a mix of people both natives from that land and from Rand Land. Besides Robert Jordan is very clear in his description of people, at no point time(I can think of) did I hear describe someone from Seanchan with Asian features. We have heard him mention dark skinned people with “tight curls” in their hair. And we have heard people having pale skin, blonde with blue eyes. I not saying that their are no people who look Asian (I think there might be), I’m just saying we haven’t given much to suggest there might be.
One thing that never came about for me in the books was a meeting between the Seanchan Ogir and Loial. It would have been interesting to see a meeting between the two and to see how different the two are. Like if the Seanchan Ogir held much of the reverence for trees and whatnot that the Randland Ogir do.
Also, i was intrigued to see that in the map, the Blight is in the north of the Seanchan continent as well. i would have liked to learn if they were fighting the Shadow over there the same way the Borderland countries were holding it back in Randland. Maybe these things were in fact revealed, 15 books is a lot, but i don't remember them being. I'm about to start book 4 of my re-read.
it's referenced a couple times that the Seanchan, thanks to their damane and the creatures from the portal worlds, that they effectively sterilized their bit of the Blight. That's why they all refused to believe Trollocs/Myrdrall/etc were real, they'd been wiped out in Seanchan for hundreds of years.
My favorite channel! I always get excited when I see a new WoT video! Feel free to discuss EVERYTHING in the WoT. I will watch all of it lol
Perhaps make a video on the Parshendi/Voidbringers? Would be pretty interesting.
Wait, where was it mentioned that all of the Seanchan were black? I thought they came in many different physical appearances... Also weren't the Sharan's pretty swarthy? Those points aside, I really liked your examination of them. I think you should examine the Drow (Forgotten Realms), the Alethi (Stormlight Archive), the Letherii Empire (Malazan) when you get far enough in the series and the Noldor (Tolkien).
They are a very interesting culture. A mix of being horrible and cruel, but at the same time being efficient rulers. Several times it is shown that regular peoples lives are improved under seanchan rule. Starvation among the common people is simply not accepted by the seanchan for example.
This is great writing. And makes the seanchan so much more than just villains.
Also you can understand why the seanchan treat the damane the way they do, since when they first arrived on the continent it was split into several small realms ruled by chanellers who where horrible tyrants, using the people as nothing more then cattle in their petty wars. So leaching is giving them a taste of their own medicine.
Absolutely delicious cultural variety introduced by Jordan w the Seanchan. Made the series for me.
Hi from uk!! Always look forward reading ur video!! Happy reading to u!!
I like all your videos Daniel Greene!
Well, see, the Seanchan are widely diverse. I don't remember where but there are several mentions of a whole lot of races. Maybe when Perrin goes to the manufactury, or when Karede visits a camp?The only overwhelmingly black people are... seafarers, the Athan Miere. Tear is said to also have a lot really dark people, I think Juilin among them, I guess they had a lot of ingress from the Athan Miere?
A conflict between the Aiel and the Seanchan is explored in Aviendha's Rhuidean journey, in which she is shown visions of what would happen if the two cultures were to clash. To me, it felt like the most realistic depiction of how that would play out; RJ/BS again resisted the temptation to go the easy route and allow the more honourable culture to prevail, instead showing the logical conclusion to how such a conflict would pan out. A real world confrontation between the two would have been enormous in scale in order to do it justice; doing it via visions did serve the story nicely
I always saw Tuon as being directly inspired by Emperor Hirohito/Showa of Imperial Japan 🇯🇵, the only Axis leader to remain in power for 64 years without facing the war crimes he committed in WW2. I'm pretty sure Robert Jordan was thinking of UNIT 731 when writing scenes with the Damane and the scene were Rand contemplated destroying the entire Seanchan empire with Balefire is a reference to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Just like with Tuon people are very split on Hirohito; some calling him a war criminal who had the power to stop what was happening while others say the Japanese socialist party (like Semirhage) just used his divine image as a ploy and that he had no true position of power, because he wasn’t allowed to be scene in public in order to maintain the allusion of him being a divine descendant of the Sun Goddess (similar to how Tuon is called Daughter of the Nine Moons).
Jordan (from what I read) originally was going to do another set of books with Mat and Tuon going back to the Seanchan homeland and there adventures there.
Maybe one day there will be a release of his notes. Like the Tollkin family has done, so we get little bits of what the story would have been like.
I can't give you any article links as this was several years ago.
I started reading Wheel of Time when the 4th book was about to be released.
DAMN YOU BOB, and your I think it's a trilogy.
I’m amazed no ones picked up on the obvious metaphor to the real world in these comments. The Seanchan are modeled on the United States.
Note:
Jordan writes about their vast armada of ships, particularly gigantic boxy ships, as well as their tamed flying beasts. These are metaphors for the huge US Navy, it’s centerpieces the aircraft carriers, and American air power, respectively.
Furthermore, the Seanchan originally came from Randland (Europe) sailed westwards across an ocean (the Atlantic) and colonized a vast land (North America) while subduing and mixing with its native darker skinned population (American Indians). It’s also described as a multi ethnic empire where some of its people (from the south, if I recall correctly) have “skin as black as coal” (African Americans). They are described as speaking with a slurring intonation - think of what American English would sound like to a British English speaker when heard for the first time.
Jordan modeled all of the peoples in his world on various real world nations. The Seanchan are meant to be the Americans. The parallels are too obvious to ignore.
I love how Rand defeats Seanchan Blademaster because of that guy's hubris and Rand becomes in that moment a True Blademaster in his own right. Beautiful Storytelling Payoff !! Book 2 begins with Rand advancing in Sword Training and by the close he becomes a Blademaster by defeating one who is Evil. Champion of Light, Rand, earning his laurels by defeating the Baddies. 💖🤗✨
Before I watch this I just want to say, thank you. I asked and you delivered.
It was always my impression that the lands conquered by Arthur Hawkwing when he set out to the west were the lands that were originally under the control / influence of the shadow, so maybe the taint runs deeper than simply Ishamael's influence?
Yes, now that you say it: the weird beasts that they use and are indigenous to the conquered land do remind many of the rand-land characters of trollocs and other shadow beasts.
I could see the child(ren) of Mateim and the Emperess(may she live forever) could initiate gradual social xhange in the Seanchan Empire.
Nice work man.
You should do a video on the Forsaken. They were some great villains. Do a top 13 list or something.
The Seanchan are not racist as race seems to be irrelevant to status. They are of all different races and though Tuon is black she wants to add to the imperial family from the high blood. High blood people are described in many different shades, eye colours ect. They are prejudice based on magical ability and family background but yet all can raise to higher status except channelers. I love how some hereditary servants hold a higher staus than members of the blood. A fasinating if scary culture. I think Jordan was trying really hard to be as inclusive as possible whilst dealing with prejudice outside of our real world issues.
I made the same prediction about Rand uniting the Seanchan in their own land, and was equally satisfied with the reality.
There's also a strong parallel between the Seanchan and the Aiel ... the Aiel have their own form of slavery as well, in the gai'shain. Of course gai'shain do "time out" and get freed, but it certainly sucks to be one...
I would like to either see a short story or straight up novel of the time that Hawkwings armies our conquering seanchan
seanchan= terribly interesting while being objectively terrible
@Mike Dalby They make the lives of specific merchants worse, as well as ruling class, and the Channellers. The trains run on time, but a lot of stuff gets way worse really fast when the Seanchan come to town.
What really shook me about the Seanchan, aside from obviously all the leashing and 'training' of women who can channel, is what happens at the end. Spoilers for the last book and finale/post-finale:
It is implied that sometime after the Last Battle, at least in a possible future, the Seanchan violate the Dragon's Accord and decide to invade Randland regardless, and are successful. It terrifies me because despite winning the battle against 'evil', the world still has to contend with people being people, and some nations deciding that they should rule over other lands. Both the Aiel and Seanchan are shaken up by the revelation of the truth behind their origins and cultures, but while the Aiel end up dwindling and dying out as a culture, the ruthless Seanchan come back to take over the world.
I wonder if the WoT tv series will actually portray the Seanchan and their "drawl" as Robert Jordan allegedly described them, "... they sound Texan."
I will never stop wanting to balefire every single Seanchan ship out of existence. They're loathsome.
This is why I loved crossroads of twilight, I was surprised it was most reader's least favorite. I thought it was fascinating
Elizabeth Davis every Mat chapter is good, it develops one of the best romances in the series, and has some great character moments like Perrin and his axe.
Didn't they capture Amadicia and Tarabon before they captured Ebou Dar
Also have to point out that Ebou Dar is the capitol of Altara
Aren't the Athan'Mierre black? I have never coded the Seanchan as black, except maybe the Blood.
I think there is are deeper notes to the constrast between the Aiel and the Seanchan.
You mentioned that they revere women who can channel, but didn't point out an important component of that reverence. The fact that one of the highest social stations, that of the Wise One, can be held by both those with and without channeling. An important component of which is that Wise Ones are equal. That is separate from their beliefs of Aes Sedai, but holds significance in comparison to the Seanchan.
The Aeil and Seanchan make great foils of each other in how both view honor, service, conquest, and the future.
There is also the use of the Shaido that shows the blending of Aeil (our paragons of "good") being pulled towards the same "evils" of the Seanchan. Being manipulated by the chosen, conquering indiscriminately, forcing female channelers into servitude, and so much more. If anything, the Shaido acts as a small redemption of the Seanchan by showing how despite their flaws, they have not fallen as low as possible.
Here are more short side by sides to hammer home the point.
How they view themselves:
Aeil (A)- we are weapons.
Seanchan (S)- we are rulers.
How they view their leaders:
A- chiefs are not wet land kings. Leaders must prove themselves by trials.
S- FOR THE EMPRESS! But, you can always gain power through murdering the competition.
After battle
A- We will be taking our 5th.
S- Welcome to the empire. Everything is ours, you have our permission to join us and use our things or die.
Service to others/prisoners
A- a year and a day. Dont try too hard to out humble each other.
S- SLAVES DO NOT RAISE THEIR EYES!
A- Our history is not something we talk about. Safe to say the threefold land is out punishment.
S- ARTHUR MOTHER FLIPING HAWKWING! WOoT, all aboard the conquest expresssssssss.
They didn't re-start by taking Ebou Dar, they start by taking over Tarabon and then launch into Amadicia
comin back in 2023 during season2 of the show!
Hey bro. Love the channel and the Wheel videos! Can I ask where you got the clip artwork for this vid? Im trying to find Seanchan artwork.
Good job.
Black kingdoms and Arab caliphates has worse slavary than any European power. It's completely ignorant people think this is offensive
How much different is the views of the Seanchan toward women who channel than that of the White Tower's view of men who channel? They both viewed them as a threat and dealt with them in horrible ways.
Mike Minderlein the White Tower was justified pre-Cleansing, as men were always more powerful than any single modern Aes Sedai, and would always go mad unless tainted by the shadow.
Thanks for the video, Daniel! :D A little late one this one, but ah well. :P
Well the Seanchan would probably eat the Aiel for breakfast, which is pretty much what Aviendha sees.
Those Seanchan PoV chapters brought it to the next level. I wasn't expecting to but around Winter's Heart or so I fell in love with and looked very much forward to chapters focusing on them.
Their aesthetics and culture are so unique - it takes a special writer to write "villains" with so much depth.
My eyes are lowered greatest one.
Id say both Elaida and Leandrin deserved the necklace
Litttt video idea
This was a great video!
Aeil / Seanchan what about both of their social systems as far as responsibility etc.
Rand Land lol
Will you do an examination of the forsaken?
Didn't someone have a viewing of a point in the future where the Seanchan and the Aiel eventually clash and the Seanchan are the victors? It's been a while since I read the entire series, have just started re-reading again (am at book 3).
It was Aviendha, she saw it in Rhuidean. But the Dragon's Peace was meant as a way to prevent that and now that Aviendha has seen what happens, she will probably try her best to prevent that.
I'm also kind of sad that we won't ever get any further development for the Seanchan, because I agree, hell, they were heading for a cultural revolution. After the cleansing of Saidin and after it becomes public knowledge that all Sul'dam can learn to channel, something would have to give eventually. They wouldn't be able to justify the continued enslavement and dehumanization of channelers into perpetuity. Of course, Aviendha's vision of the future kind of disproves this, but that's the empire at war, conquering everything in it's path, one in which Tuon had possibly been assassinated. The purpose of Aviendha receiving that vision was to prevent that horrible future for the Aiel from coming to pass, so she warns Rand to include the Aiel in the Dragon's Peace. It wasn't the Seanchan who provoked the war, and no world war against the Seanchan, giving them no reason or excuse to continue their barbaric practices for decades and centuries after the battle at Shayol Ghul. What about an empire at peace? Empress Fortuoana is Sul'Man, she can learn to channel, and as disturbed by that fact as she was, how long before she gets a taste for that power? She's a sociopathic Empress literally raised to have a god complex after all, though Mat is slowly working through that tough exterior to get to the creamy nugget of goodness that exists within her, even if only someone as stubborn as Mat could weedle their way into the heart of someone whose heart is almost entirely made of stone. Mat is almost too op as a character, I mean sure, his foolishness gets him into the worst situations but his luck always comes to the rescue, and that can lead to hilarious outcomes and awesome character development even if he never fully loses that foolishness, but that's a whole other conversation. In Aviendha's vision we learn the Tuon and Mat probably met a bad fate, but let's assume that all that is just from that one iteration and with Aviendha changing history, Tuon wasn't assasinated and Mat successfully reconquered Seanchan for her. I like to think that decades after taking Seanchan back, with no one else to fight, they would slowly liberalize and pull the opposite of Rome and become a Republic with a Imperial Family kind of similar to UK's Constitutional Monarchy, with channeling becoming more acceptable as time passes as you said, though perhaps a little quicker than you believe, a matter of decades rather than centuries. The small reforms Empress Fortuona agrees to in the books would snowball into larger ones, and a lot of this would be Mat's influences as well as Tuon coming to accept that herself and any children she and Mat would have could likely learn to channel, though trade and travel between Seanchan and the Westlands(RANDLAND!) would also greatly influence the political revolution of the Seanchan Empire into the Seanchan Imperial Republic. Tuon might never get over her god complex or sociopathy entirely, her nation might remain a bunch of stuck up snobs with a superiority/inferiority complex, but there is very little she wouldn't do for Mat and that's probably going to go double for any child they raise, who would probably be the most unreasonable and stubborn Empress of them all with that parentage. And if the Empress tells her people who deify her to get with the times, they probably will. That would be something they could maybe expand upon in the series if it ever even gets to the Last Battle and also happens to be popular enough to continue after that.
I must have missed Morridin influencing Hawkwing, when was this stated?
I wonder this as well. My hunches are that it was stated or alluded to when Rand fought Ishamael above Falme (why would Ishamael be there at all if he didn't play some related role to the events there?) or in the later parts of Book 14 (which I haven't finished yet).
Ok, I see Daniel clarified that Seanchan royalty are black (many rank and file seemed white) , but aren’t the Sea Folk black? I’m only on book 10 and doing a lightning read so maybe I misread it?
Seanchan has a lot in common with Japanese history and myths imo, but perhaps I see it thus because I firmly believe that RJ had a lot of influence from his Korean time, that you can see scattered across the series. So for me, there's that sense of a past of that region woven into the story; chinese, korean mainlanders and japanese islanders. Of course, Randland isn't strictly that, but rather an amalgamation of certain ideas from there as well as ones from elsewhere in the world (for instance the obviously mediterranean-influenced Tarabon or Illian), and strictly made up things. Ultimately, we'll never know what RJ completely drew inspiration from, but I find it interesting that not more will consider that angle, given how obvious you could make some connections.
Anyway, I agree, their culture is very interesting, and like you I would love to know what develops later. We have hints through visions and interactions, but...
I still don't know how the aiel aren't darker. Lol they live in the dessert.
In a series filled with all sorts of horrifying creatures and factions, the whole concept of the damane still makes my skin crawl the most. These poor women are brutalized, degraded, and worst of all, brainwashed and broken so badly that by the time the sul'dam have done their work, the damane truly believe they NEED to be collared, and are just as eager to collar other channelers as well. They love the collar, and love pleasing their mistresses, actually wanted to be PET by their sul'dam and taken on walks. They even stop referring to themselves in the first person, calling themselves by their new pet names instead (ex. "Pura wishes only to serve. Pura does not want to displease..." and other stomach churning stuff.) What's even more frightening is the messed up relationship sul'dam can have with their damane, where they're super nice to their captive like a pet owner being nice to their dog. Which of course helps to foster what is basically a form of stockholm syndrome within the damane.
These women are so "reduced", for lack of a better term, that should their sul'dam be killed they basically just collapse weeping, and if their collar is removed, they lash out with the power and beg any sul'dam they find to please put the collar back on. SPOILER - Reading about Egwene's stint as a damane is truly stomach churning stuff. From the get-go, they utterly make sure the new damane understands that she can't escape from the collar by making her try to walk around with the bracelet, which makes her extremely nauseous, and other stuff to totally break her spirit. Not entirely though: some of the best damane have some of their spirit left. Later down the line we find out that even Egwene was on her way to being indoctrinated.
Apparently, one former damane basically has a form of arrested development where she's hundreds of years old but still has the mental maturity of a child because she was collared at 13.
I can never get over just how messed up the damane are.
Seanchan is just modern day North America, many thousands of years in the future, and after many Apocalypses. Their culture isn't dominated by any one race, the proverbial melting pot. Also, I'm pretty sure either Illian or Tear is a majority dark skinned country (been a long time, can't remember which).
Watching the ending of (spoilers) and watching this now.
Who is this sweet cherubic goblin before my eyes?
I know you’re a true fan when you call it randland 😂🙂💕 only book people call it that hehe
Love the Aiel. Love to hate seanchan.
What about the Seanchan use of extra dimensional creatures , rake’n , to rake’n , grolm & lopar ?
Almost feel like we didn't read the same books..lol.
There are some cultural disasters heading the seanchan way post series. Artur Hawking only succombed to black ajah nearer to his end. Channelers in Seandar didn't come together as they did in Rand land and made the land there fractious until Hawkings kin arrived and dealt with them in a diffrent way as they did not cone together as a choice. They did bring stability to their land, up held laws that protect all life . Definetly ruled with an iron fist to be sure.
But tainted by the dark..no.
They were instramental in the last battle. A force of light. Changes good and bad will come gor all cultures. Andor does have dragons (cannons). And a unification of sorts with aiel, sea folk, and kin.
Shara is still the big question ?
I could go on but couldn't agree with you less.
And wasn't it a disgruntled Aes Sedai who created the leash and brought it to Artur? Think it was the time of his battles with Tara Valon. She was a black ajah most likely and for her reward, he promptly leashed her.
Reminds me of the Children or Blood and Bone
Do we actually know that the Seanchan are predominantly black? I know the Shara are pretty much exclusively black, but I only remember the Seanchan royal family ((tuon so I'm assuming the rest of the royal family is too)) being described as having dark skin. it's still interesting though because the royals are often not indicative of the common people. for example the English royal family is of German origin or even the Greek line of pharaohs. All our other prominent seanchan characters are described as being fair skinned and some are even blonde.
I could be wrong though since that would mean Tuon was the first black person Matt had ever seen...Well maybe he saw some of the seafolk.
Turak Aladon is not described as dark except in the eyes. It is not stated outright that he is a member of the royal family, but it is said that he is 11th in line, which would imply he is an imperial nephew.
Seanchan are an empire not unlike the Persians. They would have different people of different races subjugated and integrated into them.
Spoilers below.
The next obvious choice would be the Aiel, since their society was so well fleshed out, with so much time spent on them and their culture. Ideas like whether or not the Aiel Gai'shain were slaves seems to be a divisive subject, maybe you could delve into that. I personally feel that they do qualify as slaves, since they cannot choose to leave and return to their old life, they will be beaten and returned.
Their belief in honor and obligation, the fact that it is so deeply ingrained in their lives and choices would be another interesting point to touch on. It guides their every move, from the war that produced Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount, to the mad, red-veiled Aiel channelers at the battle for Shayol Ghul, who journeyed into the Blight to fight the Dark One when they learned they could channel and would eventually go mad.
Their new role as Keepers of the Peace, and their new duty to the land, are a weird reflection of their service to the Aes Sedai in the last age. If Aviendha's visions come true, then they will fail at their tasks and fall by the waysides of history. If she manages to change it what role do you think they will play when the Dragon's Peace untimately fails, as they agreed, even Rand, that it would do in the end. He knows it is only to buy as much time for Peace after Tarmon Gaidon as he can manage.
Also, there is their ties to the Tuatha'An, the Tinkers in case I got that wrong. The Tinkers won't accept them now that their society embraces violence, but they have history, and maybe their futures could still be linked. Love the channel, keep it up.
BSRincewind Gai’shain is like being an indentured servant... though the debt is paid off at a year and a day (unlike indentured servitude).
I thought being part of the dragons peace and being able to call up all the nations if someone doesn't pay ball, means her visions won't come true now.
Like, standing apart from the other nations, would lead to war against the seanchan they would lose, because of the damane being trained weapons.
I've often wondered why the emancipation of the Seanchan "damane" wasn't written into the books, as a sort of hope for the future after the Last Battle, etc, especially as Mat is now effectively the emperor and his sister was born with the "spark within", so any future Seanchan royals will almost definitely be "channelers", taking into account that Tuon can too. But if that prospect was introduced, then it would of nullifed Moghedien's & Elaida's final punishment, as it would allow for a prospect at their release at some later date.
It would've been awesome if the seanchan fought the aiel.
ah yes, I see you are a man of culture
I myself enjoy some Szechuan sauce every now and again
They bring order. Law. All cultures will obviously go thru changes after memory of light.
Artur Hawkwing does not have eternal claim to the land he ruled while he was alive. Neither do his descendents.
So you're not going to talk about Aviedha's future vision!!!
May they live forever
What the heck is randland? Never mentioned in the books
Did I hear you just say ishamael influenced Artur hawkwing?
Goblin Guts Yes. Ishamael was Ba’alzamon. He got spit out from time to time. Mostly mad, he disguised himself and influenced some of Hawkwings darkest acts, and fed his fears. Probably with compulsion. He also started the Trolloc Wars. Shattering the old nations like Manatheren, and others I can’t name off the top of my head. Like the Kingdom that became Shadar Logoth.
@@chickenmonger123 I thought Aridhol was just the collective zeal and paranoia of the city gone wildly awry? Like, they were *so focused* on eliminating the Shadow that their methods got darker and darker until somehow Mashadar was born. And that's why the Trollocs and even the Myrrdrall (sp?) were terrified to enter it, because Mashadar *hated* the Shadow
Aaron Snyder Yeah something like that. But this was all in response to Ishamael kicking off the Trolloc wars. A couple hundred years of war could darken anyone’s heart.
Though there was a seed of darkness in the place being corrupted by whoever the advisor was, the war was the catalyst that made take place so quickly.
I totally agree about the Seanchan. I hated them more than I hated the pompous Aes Sedai. I really wish another book could have been written about their fall and subsequent rise. A nation without that foul slavery they practiced. As the last book ended, their home country was in complete chaos and civil war. Adding to the underlying lie of their great empire. I'm not sure how Matt could stand Tuon. But that's love I guess. I bet he could have done great things to steer that country in a more civil direction.
I read the wheel of time years ago..over 10 years ago and i have to say I never realized they were black..i don't know why but some how I missed that
Edward Hester you didn’t miss it, it’s just not true. Some of them are, like Tuon, but they’re as mixed as every other country besides the Aiel or Sea Folk
They need to make a WoT theme park and call it Rand Land. Great video as always. I'd love to see an Aiel video. Just a suggestion but how about exploring each country in WoT? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on Andor, Cairhien, Tear, Illian, Amador, etc. Also, how about a video on the Ogier?