Why We're Wrong About Violence In Games
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 08. 2019
- Violence in Video Games is a bit of a hot button topic right now- from angry journalists, to even angrier gamers- but have we been talking about video game violence in the wrong way? The Architect thinks we have.
Instead of looking at whether games contain violent themes and imagery, we need to go a little bit deeper and analyse the way we play games to truly get to the bottom of some of the industry's biggest problems, and a wonderful game called Wandersong can show us how.
Subscribe to Rush Garcia: / @rushgarcia
Watch my Undertale Video: • What Was Undertale Act...
Buy the Wandersong Soundtrack you degenerates it's really good: ashellinthepit.bandcamp.com/m...
Support me on Patreon!: / architectofgames
Follow me on the Twittersphere!: / thefearalcarrot
You Saw:
DOOM- 1993
Call of Duty Black Ops 4- 2018
Darkest Dungeon- 2016
Civilization 6- 2016
katana 0- 2019
Path of exile- 2013
Apex Legends- 2019
Bad North- 2018
Steamworld Quest- 2019
Destiny 2- 2017
God of War- 2018
Dota Underlords- Early Access
Abzu- 2016
Minecraft- 2009
Stardew Valley- 2016
Return of The Obra Dinn- 2018
Pheonix Wright: AA- 2001
Half Life 2- 2004
Wandersong- 2018
Undertale- 2015
Nier Automata- 2017
Star Wars: Return of the Jedi- 1983
Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back- 1980
Star Wars: The Last Jedi- 2017
Dead Cells: 2017
Starcraft 2- 2010
Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice- 2017
DOOM- 2016
Dark Souls 3- 2016
Battle Chef Brigade- 2017
Lovely Planet 2- 2019
Northgard- 2018
Offworld Trading Company- 2016
Iconoclasts- 2018
Super Metroid- 1994
Metroid Prime- 2002
Dark Souls- 2012
Splatoon 2- 2017
Griftlands- Early Access
Super 3D Noah's Ark- 1994
Wolfenstein 3D- 1992
XCOM 2- 2016
Risk of Rain 2- Early Acess
Astroneer- 2019
Hitman 2- 2018
The LEgend of Zelda: Twilight Princess- 2006
Monster Hunter World- 2018
Mass Effect 3- 2012
No Man's Sky- 2017
GNOG- 2016
A Hat in Time- 2017
Celeste- 2018
Metal Gear Rising: Revengance- 2013
Hollow Knight- 2017
Sunless Skies- 2019
Anno 1800- Early Access
Wargroove- 2018
Subnautica- 2018
Hades- Early Access
Yoku's Island Express- 2017 - Hry
Click here if you want to see me tweet some deets that don't involve pictures of feets: twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot
And here if you don't want to miss out on the pantheon of content that I place upon my patreon: www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames
Why would I go there if there are no pics of feet?
But where do we go for tweets of feets on beets? Next to sweets made of wheats
I see what you're getting at here though I think it's more of a spectrum, which doesn't help since this is already a nebulous subject. Example: portal is thematically about violence and conflict is at the centre of narrative, but gameplay wise it's only semi violent, since the core loop is puzzle solving at a relaxed pace, but there are still some of those "mechanically violent" bits with fast, reactive gameplay that's more like an aggressive challenge than a playground, even though you're still placing portals there's a shift in the setup that resembles a gunfight, even though it's dressed up differently. I guess this whole subject isn't really about violence (which is just the colours it's painted in) but more about the way it's structured (the shapes painted are the same in doom and noah's ark, even if the colour palette is different)
TL:DR I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about
hey, want a new game? check out underrail, it's preety good.
Great video! More people need to hear your perspective in this conversation.
Violent video games don’t cause violence
Now Mario Party on the other hand...
That game is hell incarnate. Nintendo has destroyed friendships and families with mario party.
Everyone knows violence in video games came from violence in board games
Add a blue shell into the mix and you'll see some real violence
To paraphrase Clueless: "Until mankind is peaceful enough not to have violence on the news, there's no point in taking it out of games that need it for entertainment value."
@@charizard7666 those friendships were weak. real friendships thrive through the carnage
Killing people in real life because of video games: ❌
Killing people in video games because of real life: ✅
Y E S
classic
I imagine that all of my problems and stress is caused because of those fuckers from Doom Eternal and boy doesn't it feel good to violently slice them in half.
@@jedyt I don't know why but I just can't do that.
In my mind there's a strict separation of real life and games and I never feel immersed like that. I can't just imagine my stress in real life in video games.
@@visassess8607 well, that's just you? Wdym immersed like that?
There’s an old saying that I think we can all appreciate:
“Games don’t kill people, lag does.”
*Y E S*
The video buffered when u I read that
hahahahahhaha
Lag doesn’t kill people, it kills their keyboards and controllers
It kills the game and the player.
"Wandersong looks really interesting. I should try it out." _Wandersong is already in your library._ "...what"
Wait what??? Who said that?
@@papasscooperiaworker3649 Me. That was my reaction to the video followed by logging into Steam.
@@angeldude101 I don't know how often this already happened to me.... Sometimes I am scared xD
@@Sireisenblut the summer sale and bundles make me do that all the time, buy a game for a few bucks and just have it sit on my drive for years before remembering I have it
Ok weirdo
I've legit seen more violence from people over Monopoly than any video game I can think of.
I've seen more people get violent over talking to each other than playing video games, lol. Seriously.
Well capitalism is more violent than doom honestly
RoverStorm Mario Party is basically Monopoly with most of what little skill it still had taken out. Even most of the mini games are mostly RNG, and the board has barely enough strategy to be called a “game” beyond a person making periodic inputs.
Funny how its a game about money xD
@@Laezar1 Grossly underrated comment here
The chess is basically a war game but no one is complaining
Chess is super violent when you think about it. You will sacrifice your pieces to win. There is no compassion for your pieces
Axis&Allies board game players (._.)
That's only one way of looking at it. Unlike war, every piece returns to the board for the next game, so making the right sacrifices is considered skilled play. On the other hand, losing material would almost always be considered a blunder in modern war.
Chess promotes intrigue and subterfuge. The queen is killed, but your wimpy footman becomes the next.
@@phelanglick794 Everything is violent if u think about it.
Even when you are debating someone or haggling ur killing ur time and sacrificing ur effort to achieve victory.
"I can build a nuclear reactor but i cant build a harpoon"
-Killian experience in Subnautica
Who's Killian, I only know Kilian, tye red panda
@@cavemann_ The murderer alter ego kill-Ian experience
Isn't the in world explanation that there was a terrible battle where that tech was used in terrible ways so there was a limit made so you could only make the knife?
@@doomchief2444 literally just started playing tonight, can confirm this
@@doomchief2444 that's the ingame explanation, the irl one is that the dev are against weapons
"When everything you've got is a magic sword, everything starts to look like a monster" I don't know why but I love that sentence and I think I'll keep it in the back of my head when designing my future games :)
It can also be used to create unconventional gameplay. What kind of game can you make with a magic wand that shoots fish? Or an infinite can of silly string?
Same here, will keep this on my ideas page
Isn't that sentence a take on the classical "When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail"
I mean i think a game focused around avoiding fights specifically like thing about a rpg where your not some hero or anything your just someone whos fast on their feet and you "defeat" bad guys and monsters using reflexes and quick decisions and making them hurt themselves in a real three stoogies road runner and coyote kind of way like a slap stick rpg but the enemies hurt themselves.
@@dossiebigham6916 Board rpgs (ever DnD) also tends to make you avoid fights. With a good master, the campain requires thinking how to avoid battles that cannot be beaten and making allies alonng the way
Non gamers: Games cause violence!
gamers: What dialog choice should I take to make this virtual character like me?
Sounds about right
Non gamers: Video Games Cause Violence
Minecraft: One of my characters is the iron giant but they're better because they give flowers to children
Non gamers: Games cause violence!
Gamers: Oh sweet! I rescued 60 harvest sprite elves from the Witch Princess! Now the magical Harvest Goddess will surely marry me!
Non-Gamners: "I don't really like video games"
Gamers: Gets distracted by the POTUS trying to divert tension regarding mass killings, gun violence and a uprise in right ring violence by talking about video games.
Non-gamers: "The hearthstone Dalaran heist is about murder and theft."
Me: "Thank you weird magic head ball thing for letting me play that healing spell an extra time."
*Kid:* Can we get Wolfenstein 3D?
*Mom:* We already have Wolfenstein 3D at home.
*At home:* Super 3D Noah’s Ark
This fits a little too well.
Well done
Kid: Can we get Doom?
Mom: We already have Doom at home.
At home: Chex Quest
@@krzemo644 But Chex Quest is awesome! :-)
@@chelonianegghead274 yeah, weve seen the avgn episode...
*i can’t resist my urge to kill after playing candy crush, i might become a murderer*
Lol
I will agree videogames cause violence the day L shaped and T shaped corpses are found pedantically stacked to perfection.
Just played tetris. I'mma head out and eat a baby.
*Gotta crush them skulls*
Pffftt candy crush the most violent game? What about lego star wars?!
"That replaces the subhuman Fascist animals with the regular grumpy animals"
I wish I could like twice
Alt account activate
The hardest moral dilemma I have ever faced in a game is How many sleeping german shepherds am I willing to murder in order to topple the 3rd Reich?
That question keeps me up at night.
@@RevolutionaryLoser It really shouldn't be though.
3:20 as someone who has never played Neir Automata it’s obvious that a cult of robots surround and worship their blind waifu
Nah, that would be the Neir Automata fan base.
If only it were that simple.
No.. that's... pretty much right.
you've got it
i was gonna say preparing to sacrifice them to their god but that works to
Videogames don't cause violence, violence causes videogames!
Think of all the games based on real wars.
Not just that, all other violent games have been inspired by what the designer have experienced in their life.
If people didn't start shooting each other the idea wouldn't if been around to put in video games.
cod ww1 and ww2
dacota sullivan don’t think there’s a COD WW1.
@@ghostrangerz8273 yup it's called the big red one
1800s: Them books are causing violence!
2000s: Them video games are causing violence!
***most of the time before ~the post-wwii era, it was laziness, not violence, that was the main issue.
1950s: Them rock music is causing violence!
@Brownskikuca Garlic Bread That's not true.
@@LecherousLizard no but wasn't there a lowkey ban on rock music in certain places bc it was actually believed to be demonic, violence and promiscuity inducing music. 💀
Ikr. It's almost like people are just violent. Who'da thought...
Talking about one specific game: "Instead of solving these problems with the tip of a sword, you use your voice."
Me: *FUS RO DAH*
this cracked me up
thx, I needed that!
good shit
Fin Vodahmin Dovahkiin DORIME
DDDOOOOOO-VVVAAAAAAAAA-KIIIIIIIIN
yo, did you hear that? I think the gray beards are calling you
@@mutantcube1737 Oh no not this agai-
*STARTED: THE WAY OF THE VOICE*
"Violence in Video Games is a bit of a hot button topic right now"
It was a hot button topic for a long time, and was just a way to blame something about everything bad. Earlier it was "violent heavy music", even further back in time it was about books. YES, BOOKS.
Games itself are not the problem. People attempting to find something to blame other than themselves is.
This is what I say to people constantly. The same people who have been blaming fucking books ages ago are the same idiots right now blaming video games.
And don't forget violence on TV, right about the same time as the music.
The argument for games creating degenerates has a fatal flaw, the same as their arguments over heavy metal music, comics, DnD et al, violent TV shows, movies, and so on... ad nauseum infinitus.
The assumption is that the humans are enslaved by the medium... when in fact, we should be the masters of it. It's too easy to take the personal responsibility to change the channel, or shut the TV down. Same with the Computers, game systems, and a human can still just close the damn book, comic or otherwise.
SO violence in games or television, movies, etc... fails the stink test right there. If you (as a human) are the master of your various types of media, entertainment, etc... THEN it simply can NOT "infect you" with violence. Then also, the violence involved can't possibly be the problem.
If you are enslaved to your entertainment, whatever it is, then you have much bigger problems than any form of violence is ever going to help.
The problem is letting piss sorry parents continue to hide away their culpability when it comes to raising these little hellions. Failure to teach the kids the importance of the power button, the need to get away from the same old rut (even entertainment) and do something different just for the sake of difference, and all the other myriad horrible lessons these kids are going to learn from such a horrible example of a human... absolutely can NOT be overlooked.
I played every single one of the "dangerous" games when I was a kid... From Wolfenstein to Duke Nukem and even DnD while the Satanic Panic was all over the airwaves, scaring Parents of dice and books (like kids needed another reason not to read anything)... The difference comes that my Parents taught me that fighting was something you only did as a last resort. If there was ANY other way out of a bad situation then violence was NOT the right answer. Simple...
That doesn't mean I never got into a fight, either. Kids screw up... also a simple premise... BUT the Parents are supposed to be the adults in this situation. They need to TEACH their kids, rather than blindly repeat the same rhetoric we were sick of hearing back when we were kids.
AND what do we expect? Most adults (somehow) can't seem to put their phones away even while they're supposed to be driving the damn car!
I'd argue that the truth behind this horrible violence issue is just plain old lack of responsibility and a failure to create willpower. As long as there's an excuse to be had, there's a failure of a parent interested in having it. ;o)
I believe it's called juvenoia, we had this same problem with slates and paper, horses to cars, BOOKS, piston propelled aircraft to jets, and now, video games, and as Millienials and Zoomers grow up and have kids, we also will think wrong about the new fads and trends that our children will take. Vsauce has a great video about that.
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 So, my Dad, ALWAYS watches videos on his phone while he's driving, it gets so annoying. Meanwhile my dad tells my brother to get off of his phone even if his work is done, "go outside or do something else" , *BOY* It's raining outside, and whatever else....
"It might be lupus."
Dr. House would like a word with you.
It's never Lupus
@@tlsgrz6194 other than the one time it was lupus
@@nolifeorname5731 it's never lupus... Unless it's lupus?
Maybe Sarcoidosis?
Appears just as frequent on that whiteboard. ;)
Part of me was hoping this comment was here, part of me wanted to comment it myself. Eh, it's never lupus.
Missed opportunity to show Mario stomping on a goomba when saying the “... crushing your enemies ...” part 😁
Dark souls doesn’t make you violent towards others. It makes you violent towards all gaming consoles
I have a PTSD after trying the PC port of the first game.
@@LecherousLizard I know where u've been xD. It felt soo lonely and unfair
@@hiten9052 Aren't all Dark Souls games "lonely"?
Also, yes, it was a bit unfair, since I had problems even turning around in that shitty ass port.
@@LecherousLizard before the DS Remastered edition , the wasnt online mode
@@hiten9052 Am I too yarr-harr to understand this joke?
Back in the 50s, people were demonizing those DARN COMIC BOOKS!! Instead of maybe accepting that they were... BAD PARENTS!!
What happened? The comics code was born. The industry almost died... and violent youth gangs were still existing...
In the 80s it was THOSE MOVIES!!
In the 90s it was THAT HEAVY METAL!!
...
What will take the blame instead of bad parenting in the future?
20's, video games, 2010's, rap, 2020's, who knows
D&D
@@Joey099 again
Vaccines(?)
Simulative holotech?
The only time a game ever inspired me to do something was when stardew valley got me to do farmwork (I love it actually)
Just because I love Brutal Doom doesn't mean I'm gonna go ride the sheep into a village and brutally maim everyone though. Some people fear video games way too much
You're not? Aww dangit
No one actually fears video games, US just like to use them as a scapegoat. There is literally 0 debate over violence in video games outside of US. Or at least 0 debate in my home country.
@@sirkana i live in Spain and it's not as famous but here it's much stronger
@@MisterSquid1 Probably for the same reasons, politics. It's never about actual facts.
@@sirkana
A lot of people down in the South fear them.
They are very old-school and boomer-like, it doesn't matter what age they are. :/
"Did you kill everyone? : )"
No, grandad, I'm harvesting my fucking tomatoes! Did you kill everyone in that medieval war simulator you call "Chess"?
> Grandad stares at you.
> Grandad walks to you.
> Grandad draws his Sword.
> Grandad draws his Sword.
@@ButWhyMe... Two swords is always better than one.
I once read Tom Sawyer. I then continued my life without using the "N" word to address other people. Because I am mentally sound enough to be considered sane.
*respect*
A pun on balance, a pun on burning, and then "lupus" while a bossfight with a wolf happens on screen
Have you no shame, sir?
i have no idea what that word means
@@ArchitectofGames Wolf (canis lupis).
@@Madhattersinjeans ...You misinterpreted the joke.
@@Madhattersinjeans I think the joke is that he doesn't know what shame means.
@@Madhattersinjeans Ahem... /whooosh
*Video Games never caused me to do harm on people*
I can't say the same to my Keyboard and Mouse though
For a second I read this to mean that your keyboard and mouse caused you to do harm to people.
@@rileyl2046 I HEAR THEIR VOICES
@@stormblade3408
Give in. One by one, you will all fall. It is inevitable.
Lol game rage I have it too
I swear my last mouse wasn't squeezed to death (not a living mouse)
I hope the Subverse Game becomes a big hit. As an experiment, in a rated M game, what I would like to see in the game is a slider, where the player chooses whether he/she wants to see (A) graphic violence & cartoonish nudity in the game, or (B) cartoonish violence & graphic nudity, or (C) something in between. It would interesting to see what the majority of players would choose.
Timmy, stop playing that violent game and do something safe like...read a book.
Read something educational, like a book about political figures.
Timmy comes back from the library with books about the life and times of Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin .
Good boy, Timmy. Nothing violent there.
Technically still safe and educational.
Timmy stop staring at words!
You must go outside but nothing that requires using force
@@mydogsfacelookslikeastockp8275
>timmy
>gose outside
>mom
> get your litle ass back in here, you have chores to do.
>timmy
> what do you want me to do lady?!
> you told me to go read a book
> then you told em to go outside
> now you want me to do chores!
> i fucking give up
Red inferno: 1945 by Robert conroy is what came to mind legit talks about a Burning tank with the crew still inside.
Mind you, I it's about the political figures it probably wouldn't describe the violence, but just cold heartedly say "as a result, however many million people died". Which if anything is worse and normalises murder you don't actually witness
In pyre you don’t attack your enemies. you just put down their fire and deny them their chance for freedom. Forever.
@Kathy Kat SPOILERS That's true initially. But for plot reasons, the festivals eventually get cancelled. So the game ends with no more festivals and more more chances for anyone else to be freed.
Metaphizzle I would say it’s mercy: no more hopes to be crushed, and thanks to Greentail traffic, an improvement in life quality
This is what I love about this channel.
The topic of violence in videogames is a rather touchy subject right now due to the politicisation of it - I live in germany so the american debate about it doesn't matter much to me but the thing is we had that debate over here a decade ago so, ya know. Business as usual etc.
But despite the current climate around this topic your questions remain solely focused on games as a medium and their design. What are the fundamental differences between "violent" and "non-violent" games and how can this understanding help us in creating more varied and unique experiences?
Agree wholeheartedly with your points, absolutely excellent video!
Luminescence also from Germany. The fact that the discussion around it isn’t really any different over here, says a lot. What is frustrating is that the argument: “This is not about the violence” doesn’t work for anyone not having played a game. The actual reason why violence is a problem in games is just that typical power fantasy - which sadly really can be a bad influence especially on younger folk. It really doesn’t help that high profile developers actually embrace that as a goal openly and intently. It’s just a mess, this industry.
Timon Henze
What makes you think power fantasies negatively effect younger people?
@@levihenze9297
What discussion? As I implied the discussion about violence in video games died down about 6-7 years ago over here.
Studies were conducted showing the positive effects of playing video games on an individuals cognitive abilities and specific ones into a link between agressive behaviour in teenagers and violent video games could find no correlation except for individuals with severe issues of telling apart reality from fiction - so individuals with certain mental disorders.
That's when mainstream media stopped covering it. Sure, some politicians might bring the topic up again but there is no point to continuing a discussion about supposed phenomena that science has proven to not exist.
A far more pressing concern is the issue of video game addiction, which is one of the topics that the field has moved on to.
@@levihenze9297 I disagree, power fantasies are what drives RPGs and MMOs, they are definitely not a bad thing. Power fantasies, whether they be political power or physical power, aren't a bad influence. If you're playing Warframe as a max mastery rank god, how would that affect your real personality? It's the same argument as the "videogames cause violence", you won't understand unless you've played a game like it.
This isn't a very serious debate over here. Maybe 10% of the population thinks, "vidya games are bad m'kay?"
"If luke skywalker was skilled,and good from the beggining it would've boring"
*Proceed to show Ray*
Glad I'm not the only one that noticed
It’s funny cause it’s true
@@laufert7100 yeah it was really subtle, you're so smart.
*plays stardew valley
t I Me tO Mu rD er
not only the men, but the women and children too
I HATE THEM , I HATE ALL OF THEM
They are animals! And I slaughtered them like animals!
You were supposed to destroy them, not join them!
At least your not discriminating
@@periclescomoeddie5215 To soon, to soon
I saw those shots fired at the new Star Wars Trilogy.
I wish people would fucking stop with it.
@@PauLtus_B why, the criticism is fair xd
@@mrplop38
Hmmmm...
No.
I pretty much hate the Rise of Skywalker yet find it a rarity to see complaints about it that I think are fair.
Even if they were, it's just tiring. If you think something was bad. Accept it and move on.
I wish people would stop being so insecure about their opinion that they feel the need to pretend that their negative opinion is the general consensus.
@@PauLtus_B different strokes for different folks i get where you're coming from but sometimes it's fun to talk about how bad it is and I feel the consensus is that it's kinda trash like the sequel trilogy as a whole but if it wasn't maybe george wouldn't have been invited back for a new era of Star Wars so im happy :))
@@PauLtus_B People are allowed to complain about a series they're invested in, if you don't like it just ignore them and move on
3:16 - Obviously, this is the scene where Riku from _Kingdom Hearts_ dressed in drag and took Robo from _Chrono Trigger_ to visit the temple of the Sun Warriors and learn the origin of firebending.
Alright, what the hell?
Im saying this not because i dont understand, but rather because this actually makes sense
The mechanism to teach about Wondersong is kinda clever and funny. He get's a sword, you think "ah yah, time to fight", and then he looses it. So many games are pretty terrible at introducing you to the mechanics, but I like that.
The theme of Wandersonf (you first play it when talking to the yetis) always hits me so hard. It’s a pretty simple melody with pretty much no harmony and a simply rhythm, yet it’s always so powerful
Man, according to Ben Shabibo it shouldn’t count as music as it lacks harmony. I just disproved the Shabibo through the power of Wandersong!
I kind of disagree with your idea of struggle, or rather, it is complete. All your mentions of struggle are external, ie require change from the outside, but a lot can be done with internal struggle. Look at celeste: in the story not all struggle is external, but in the game it is. Compare this to something like cookie clicker, where all struggle is from the internal desire to make biggerer numbers of cookies. The game ends not when you've overcome a challenge set by the game but when that internal drive to make cookies ends. The desire to express yourself, to improve yourself, to find love all are internal struggles for most people (although all of these can be paired with or be completely external as well). A lot can be done with games in that way.
You made a pretty grave typo on your first sentence.
I think what you mean is "it is incomplete"
@@dudep504 It is pretty obvious mistake but I got confused anyway
Well, any internal struggle can easily be paired with any external struggle so it's really not all that important to consider when looking at the external ones.
Turns out it was Lupus. Thanks for reminding me to check it out!
Its never lupus
Non gamers: Video games cause violence.
Me just wanting to feed berries to my Golbat so it can evovle into a healthy Crobat.
Checkmate, Ghetsis
This video makes a weird switch. It starts out making people think it will attack the idea that violent games cause violence, but then it doesn't talk about that at all, and instead talks about why many games have samey gameplay, which isn't because of violence, because violent games can have many different gameplays and a non-violent game can have the same gameplay as a violent game. Which seems obvious when you think about it.
Even weirder, most comments that I've read are attacking the idea that violent games cause violence, the idea that this video wasn't about.
The idea alone deserves a few surprise haymakers.
Yeah, I found this video pretty confusing too
15:32 “non-violent games”
Shows the word kill in Japanese
2:50 in and I'm just really happy that ANYBODY is talking about Wandersong
I was hoping all the comments would be like this.
I guess it still goes mostly unnoticed
*"The desire to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of people complaining about outdated gender stereotypes"*
Me: Oh hey it's one of Arnold's movie lines!! xD
I always liked how Undertale offers you the option to explore the characters and spare them, instead of urging you to kill everything. It shows the more overlooked side of the "foes": they are portrayed not as forces of evil that need to be defeated, but as beings with their own lives and potential families/persons that care for them, and who would be sad to see them gone.
As such, if you would go all the way turning everything to dust (literally), you would (surprise!) not become a hero who cleansed the world of its evil or something like that, but would rather become a jerk who caused problems to an otherwise peaceful society.
16:37 Adam, Adam, Adam, don't you know?
*It's. Never. Lupus.*
0:36 "High Octane murder fests" *Plays Bloodhound*
Missed opportunity right there
I just want to take a moment to thank this video for introducing me to my favourite game of all time! Wandersong is so very special, and I would not be who I am today without it. Thank you very much!
basically what i gather from this is that "combat" seems to be the fundamental symbol through which human struggle can be conveyed (b/c everyone can easily understand the struggle being portrayed in this way), and video games seem to be the ideal medium to convey such struggles b/c of the medium's ties with simulation and inherent feature of reacting to a player's input... good stuff
Civ5 is also a good example. Violence - war - is never the ultimate goal. As Clausewitz said, war is politics by other means. Violence in Civ is more a factor that puts pressure on you, and can be used to achieve larger goals that extend beyond war.
Just a thought.
It's interesting that you say this because to me, the combat and overwhelming other nations is the funnest part of the civ games, so when I play it all game mechanics are in service of the combat. Politics (and with the expansions, religion and economics) is war by other means.
@@johnmorrell3187 Maybe I'm just bad at it but I could never have a military civ from the beginning. Only perhaps from the midgame on.
Your right, military victors goes against my point.
I think what makes Civ (or grand strategy games) different from most games is that the obstacles are always more the other players than the environment.
@@Beastinvader Playing on harder difficulties sadly pretty much forces you to just spam troops and be at war with all of your neighbors for the entire early game. Because the AI is so bad at using the game mechanics optimally, they get insane bonuses at the start of the game to provide any challenge, such as two extra settlers, warriors and workers, as well as income and happiness bonuses large enough to entirely negate any possible problems that they would normally have with the way they build their empires. The result is total military dominance or death for the early game, and breezing through the rest of the game since the AI is too bad to catch up.
E: This is mainly the reason I have no interest in playing on harder than King or Emperor, I don't want to spend each of my games the exact same way at the start
@@houndofculann1793 Well said. I usually play on emporer. Enough to be challenging but not as aggressive as you've said.
@@houndofculann1793 That is mostly civ 5s bad design. Other strategy games have mastered the balance far better. Endless legend for a similar example, or Eu4 for an out of genre example. You can definitely tell that civ5 is trying to be a game that can be played in many ways, but fails conceptually.
Did you seriously just drop a Conan the barbarian reference in the middle of that script without batting an eyelid?
"The desire to crush your enemies
see them driven before you
and hear the lamentations of people complaining about outdated stereotypes."
Ghengis Khan said it first! (Unless the sexism part is from Conan.)
@@j2dragon109 If he said the complete conan one, this vid would be demonetized.
@@kouron I feel really lowbrow right now. What was the original quote?
3:18
Breaking News:
Robotic Suicide Cult attempts to recruit reluctant bystanders.
"if luke was always talented he wouldnt be as easy to get into him as a character" -shows rey.
and this is the problem with the movies.
They might have been pushing the "empowered woman" narrative with Rey
Please take a seat, Mr. Hansen.
am i the only one that genuinely liked those?
@@a.wadderphiltyr1559 I don't deny I have terrible taste in movies, but as someone who never got into the original trilogy, these films made me consider rewatching them. Their plot is well written, the aesthetics are excellent, and the dynamic between the two lead characters is incredible (except when they kissed at the end, but I can just pretend that didn't happen).
@@a.wadderphiltyr1559 Honestly, I only watched the last one. How was the plot at mess?
one interesting thing that you kinda skipped over is something that seems to be an inherit difference between conflict based games and other types.
If you look at a lot of the examples of types of games that aren't focused on supremacy like platformers, puzzle games, strategy games, etc.
One of the big differences is that there is no immediate time pressure/threat to the player.
And i guess it's fairly obvious why, it comes back to violence being immediately intuitive and understandable.
In a violent conflict you have to act or you will die. With things like platformers and puzzle games you can just sit there and take your time.
And in strategy games like anno you have a kind of mix of both where you still have some pressure but not as much compared to direct conflict.
I guess my point is that violent conflict based games are almost fundamentally different from other types of games.
I feel like every strategy game makes me waaay more violent than any shooter ever has. In strategy games you are the one and only person in control, and a lot of times you're against a computer. A predictable, weak opponent. You get the feeling that you are the chosen one. You're the skilled tactician, the king, the general, the leader of a space empire, the builder of cities and the taker of lives. Able to wipe out hundreds, thousands, millions, with a press of a single button. This really gets to your head. Games like Doom ain't got shit on that, even though you aren't directly killing anyone. You just give the order to do so. Cooking Russians with a Flammenwerfer is pretty fun, and you're not even pulling the trigger.
Don't cook me, I'd like to exterminate a few planets first.
are you a troll
@@saksagan1436 I don't think so, what the OP said makes perfect sense to me, and isn't exactly wrong.
Ah yes. Stellaris. You have the option wipe an entire civilization with a planet-cracking Colossus. The pinnacle of military engineering. xD
Strategy games make me feel violent too‐ but not because they go to my head, just because I'm bad at them
I've read a blog post about that topic where the author explains that it's easier to make a violent game than a non-violent one just because the game industry has a lot of experience of making them. And that's why most AAA games are violent, bc big companies don't want to risk too much by making games in a less uncharted way. But as more non-violent games appear even more will appear after them using their experience.
"High Octane Muderfests"
Apex Legends in the background
>Doesn't play Octane
Wasted potential for a joke right there
Very interesting video, I would like to add one more thought to it, based on my private research.
I've been thinking about and trying to make non-violent games for many years and the biggest conclusion I have came up with so far is as such: games almost always require some level of uncertainty about the decisions the player is making, otherwise the decisions become boring. There may be many sources of that uncertainty: randomness of results, skill checks, hidden information, uncertainty about level design, uncertainty about plot, uncertainty about enemy behaviour, communication between players, time pressure or even just the player being mentally unable to process the situation far enough into the future to fully predict the consequences of their decision. There are some others. Each one has a specific way in which it affects the player and in which the player can deal with it. Though I have developed the concept independently, something quite similar is described in more depth in "Uncertainty in Games" by Greg Costikyan.
The biggest, most common one, one that is present even in the games of perfect information is the enemy. Enemy, that is another actor who can act upon the player and upon whom the player can act, usually with goals contrary to the player's. The enemy can be both human and AI and it truly is a great source of uncertainty - mostly because how we humans as players deals with it. That is by predicting its behaviour. We build this mental decision tree of "if I do this, they will do that, so I will do this etc...", similar to min-max trees of chess AI systems. This instantly gives a lot of depth even to decision otherwise based on simple rules (like, say, checkers). Moreover, this way of thinking is something that players find easy to understand, at least for the first 2-3 levels of the tree. Finally, enemies can be easily multiplied and mixed with other sources of uncertainty to make the decisions even deeper. Enemy goes especially well with hidden information, as many strategic games lovers will attest, but it will go well with randomness or level design as well, RPG and FPS players know.
When you are trying to build a non-violent game you, usually, need to get rid off the enemy - otherwise it often becomes little more then a combat game in disguise. As such you are getting rid of one of the best sources of uncertainty, which you have to replace with other(s). Those others lack the depth generating properties of the decision tree and as such it is often difficult to replace the enemy without the replacements feeling shallow. That's the reason why 1) completely non-violent games are rare 2) even games we generally consider non-violent will often have this "sprinkling" of enemies and combat mechanics - to sort of tie down and give an easy to understand but not trivial raison d'etre to other mechanics. Finally, that's also the reason why combat games can feel samey - despite looking and playing differently, you are still dealing with the same kind of uncertainty and in the same way.
5:42
Did I just see Sharky destroy Beepulon?
Wandersong is such a darling game, I played it after playing a number of purely violent videogames and found it to be like a salve to a burn wound, it was by far not the first non-violent game I played but it was incredibly eye opening and indearing to watch a character face so much of a struggle just by choosing the path of non-violence, usually characters like this are universally loved in their fictitious worlds but just like the real world getting opposing views to reconcile is REALLY REALLY HARD... and ofcourse he solves everything by singing which defeats my point of realism entirely XD
Great video! Really illustrates the concept of conflict versus struggle through games
Interestingly, I've always enjoyed games that have an "endless challenge" mode, where the game just kind of keeps going until you hit a fail state, and part of that is because it's a kind of internal struggle rather than an external one. Even in a game that is built around violence, the only opponent I'm actually aiming to defeat is my own previous high score.
Tetris99 is fun enough, but it'll never be an adequate replacement for a single player Tetris game that can smoothly ratchet up the difficulty until you can't keep up with it anymore, giving you the chance to push your own limits, at your own pace.
The most violence ive ever felt while playing wast in GTA but Overcooked. That diabolic game makes me hate its guts and those of my family while playing with them
The way you've structured this comment leaves something to be desired. I'm having major issues discerning what you're trying to say.
Aaron Miller could you not have just said that it’s hard to understand?
I'm a dishwasher in a very busy restaurant. I played overcooked with a friend once. once. most realistic depiction of my workplace I've ever seen.
Samuel Martin I fucking loved GTA 5. It was so much fun!
Riding at over 90 mph in a racebike against traffic in the middle of the night.
Erraticly driving a helicopter through the mountains.
Literaly stealing and driving a limo and getting chased by the police.
Hunting.
I would never do such things in real life, and the game does not change that. Just so much fun.
Sadly the disc died. Now I'm into Red Dead Redemtion lol
Edit: I forgot to mention the animal mods
@Samuel Martin same i was playing it with my cousin,i never raged so hard in my life
Dr. Foreman: "It could be lupus."
Dr. Kutner: "Maybe lupus."
Adam Millard: "It might be lupus."
Dr. House: "It's never lupus."
Yeah, basically
I have been looking for a comment about it’s never lupus
Watched a few of your videos, the quality is consistently awesome... subbed for good messure... keep it up my guy
3:18
Okay, I haven't played Nier Automata.
This scene represents a sacrifice being made to the fire gods from a cult, and you are the sacrifices. Later on, the Flame god will arrive, you will be resurrected from the dead, and will have an awesome final boss battle, after a long and dramatic cut-scene about the main characters dying, making it ever so obvious that they will come back. That's how it works on anime, right?
close enough
not _that_ far off, though...
It's a sacrifice to blindfolded robot waifu
Um... the player weren't sacrificed, but about the dying part... looking at Ending E, yeah, that's probably going to be true, in some way.
I think you’re right about the ‘struggle’ idea to the same extent that cereal must be eaten with milk, and placed in the bowl first ;)
The most fundamental reason we play games is that they allow us to solve problems and build habits, which are the reasons brains exist, and the closest you can get to a purpose for life using only materialistic and pragmatic information.
The “Skinner Box” research is a good tool to understand this: When the pigeons are given no rewards, they cease pressing the button. When they are given consistent rewards, their brain flags the problem as ‘solved’, and they develop a measured habit to make use of the resource. But when the rewards are random, the problem remains unsolved, the pigeon cannot form a reliable process, and so it presses the button incessantly, hoping to spot the pattern.
This is why exponential levels or resource requirements, losing (on average) half your games, deaths that set your progress back hours and, sadly, loot boxes are so common in games: because they’re the easiest and most effective ways of showing the players brain that the problem is unsolved, and more effort and resources should be spent fixing that.
As for the way you tied the ideas to violence, since you were describing good ideas which where just missing some refinement they plug in pretty well: combat is something we treat very seriously (since it has the highest possible stakes), and usually understand quite intuitively, so using makes engaging players easier, along side exploration and accumulation - which most big games have all three of.
You may have thought about this for months, but my insomnia gives me a 3x bonus to thinking time: check mate.
Man I've missed your channel. Haven't watched for a while! Great video as always. That 5 second clip of ABZU made me want to play it again. So it's downloading on my switch right now.
Oh that Konan reference at 6:36, I love you! ♥
Instant sub
I think being a part of the struggle versus BEING the struggle is also part of it. Like in Minecraft and Terraria the enemies are part of the struggled you face but their not the only main struggle you face.
I mean the hordes of enemies man they can getcha
Could you do a video on DnD? I think it would be fascinating to watch a take on it from a videogame perspective
>D&D
:sick:
Go buy Baldur's Gate I and II on gog.com, the mechanics are original DnD!
But like what about it?
Non gamer: video games cause violence!
Me: woos people in stardew valley
Me: makes my sims successful and caring
Me: plays solitaire and sudoku online
Amazing video very grateful for you, loved the Patreon bit
I never though all violent games are the same by a long mile, what makes AAA games feel the same is how they're designed. They have a few templates. All FPS play like COD, if it's 3rd person shooter then it's a cover shooter, beat em ups all have Arkham combat... and in case of doubt make it open world.
Meanwhile, Sekiro or DMC5, two really violent games that have a unique flavor and are incredibly fun.
Exactly this. I think games like rebooted Doom and original Dark Souls were so good because they didn't feel like everything else on the market. AAA design teams have all this pressure to make safe mechanics that "guarantee" a ROI for the company's investors. Even at the indie games level, every week games are released that feel indentical or worse to another well known game, making the experience less unique. "Violence", or should I say CONFLICT is the core of all engaging gameplay. It's all about finding interesting ways of experiencing that conflict that makes game design good.
That's a big issue, yes. The AAA industry doesn't really want to take risks and as such, they attempt to recreate the experience you had in successful titles rather than creating their own. There is a lot you can do if you just dare to execute your own ideas.
Did he just use DMC5 and Sekiro as examples for uniqueness? Lmaoooo ok buddy
@@tuptastic304 Tell me another game that has the mechanical depth of DMC5 or the hyper stylized cinematic combat of Sekiro. (if you're thinking about Bayonetta or Dark souls you're already wrong btw)
@@night1952 demon souls and the original god of war
The only time a video game has made me violent was when I was playing Smash Bros online against a Ness with the worst lag imaginable.
PK Fire! PK Fire! PK Fire!
Kinda ironic though because it's the internet connection ruining the game's violence lol
No, the answer is not "probably not." The answer is "no."
rainynight02 you can’t be 100% no because people do learn violence through watching it. Does that mean video games cause violence? No but it can’t be said it has no effect.
@@suckstosuck7605 Yes, it has effect, like ANY other thing, like books. So it's not exactly only the videogames, and even so, it's not like if I play an game that has violence on it, I gonna turn into a serial killer like the media says.
@@suckstosuck7605 Someone has to already be a weaker mental health state to videogames actually make a significant change in someone, i can say that because that happened to me once
I was in a bad mental state because of personal problems, making me more sad and almost depressed, but i kept playing my usual games because it was something that made me happy, however, it changed me kinda alot, making me more angry and short tempered than before, luckily my parents quickly saw that and talked me through it, making me realize that because of my situation and the fact that i played my violent games like CoD and PD2 changed my personality in some way, in the time i was declining that, so my parents took away my stuff for some time, then i started recovering more.
So yes, videogames can make somewhat of a change in you, however, this is only possible if you already has somewhat of a weaker mindset and/or is suffering/suffers from some mental health problem.
The irony here is that literally the whole point of the video was that we were focusing on whether or not violence in video games is a problem and not looking at how it could be a problem in other ways that causing violence--which yes, is a silly narrative used to scape goat video games for bad parenting. The point being made was about the over-reliance on violence which may have pigeonholed many games into being about combat when there were other ideas that didn't even require violence to be had. Some of them simply CAN'T be done in a framework that centers around direct person-to-person conflict.
With that said, "probably not" is the academic way of putting it, since obviously you can't just say "no" unless you've got arguments to back it up, and since that would've derailed the video, was better left as "probably not." Besides, in the name of keeping an open mind, I can't 100% claim that no one has ever taken inspiration from a video game to go commit violence, but I think I can be pretty confident when stating that anyone who learned their morals from video games had much bigger issues than what games they were playing that needed attention.
Because even the unlikely possibility of it being true makes you feel bad?
Me: **Beats the tutorial of candy crush**
Also me: Now I know how to use a gun :D
Hmm yes match a bullet type that's effective for commiting murder
I mean your not wrong if people think playing CoD or Hogans alley with a light gun makes you a trained killer then military exercises should just be shooting galleries. people are just so dumb like i've seen people get violent over benign bullshit and i've seen people be nicest people in super violent games.
@@dossiebigham6916 It is inrefutable that games like COD and military shooters increase people's knowledge and interest in firearms though. What 15 year old would know the names of each gun in CS Go are on sight if it wasn't for that game? FPS games explicitly increase the hobyism of fire-arm ownership which is a problem in and of itself.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 whats wrong with having a gun? I mean i get their dangerous but so are cars so is alcohol so is a hot stove but people have hobbies around them.
Look I'm not saying we don't need to do something about guns but their is a certain class of firearm that is in involved with a majority of crimes in the US and that by and large is handguns by a wide margin. Which makes sense small consolable easy to transport. I also thing concealed carry does contribute to this as well. So the way i see it open carry should be mandated.
After all if your not doing something shady why hide it on your person. I also do believe other such restrictions should be placed on hand guns considering they're in involved with the most criminal activity.
However i do not believe the right to own a firearm should be done away with it is after all a right of the people and one shouldn't blame all people for the short comings of the mentally ill or the irreconcilable when most of the populace are responsible and law abiding.
@@dossiebigham6916 A car can be used for transportation. A car can be used as a bed. A car can be used for storage. Alcohol is a drug, one that humans would mostly be better without but is largely personal in usage. A stovetop is used for the practical uses of cooking as well as the artistic uses.
A gun is a weapon. The sole purpose of a gun is to kill, whether it be people or animals. But the people collecting guns and keeping them in their home are holding them because they think they will have to kill someone with them.
In the u.s. we can't abolish people's ability to own them. Our population is too stupid and too many people would freak out. Also we have way too many, there are more guns in the u.s. than people and half of the civilian owned firearms in the world are owned by u.s. citizens. It is literally impossible to get rid of them unless there was some absolutely massive Social Movement the entire population agreed upon to melt down the firearms into something useful. There isn't even any point to talking about revoking that as of this moment.
But just gun ownership increases a large variety of horrific statistics. It increases the rate of successful suicides since a gun is a lot more lethal a lot easier than other tools. Gun owners are more likely to be shot and killed during home invasions than kill the invader. Higher levels of gun ownership in an area also correlates to a higher homicide rate, especially related to law enforcement. It doesn't seem to stop crime, really at all.
And having open-carrying become the norm is the equivilent of saying during the cold war that we should produce more nukes for safety. It is the concept of mutually assured destruction. "If you come at me I will kill you." It increases distrust and discomfort in public spaces. The only appropriate response to that is to keep a gun of your own just in case the other guy is mentally ill, which just leads to more gun ownership and a further rise in those terrible statistics I mentioned earlier.
There is no positive effect for increasing gun ownership or gun hobbyism. They are weapons designed solely for killing, they shouldn't be something kids are learning the nuances of and developing an interest in at the age of 12. There is no benefit to that for either the kid or broader society.
Good video, that cuts to the heart of the issue.
Got to say i'm surprised the like/dislike ratio is as high as it is. This kind of sentiment has had some real motivated opposition when other channels have touched the same subject, (with the same call to try something different near the end).
Maybe it's because you've found a nuance that others haven't? I hope it's that.
Adam : "cause no one likes dying"
emo kids : observe
Well there are also games like Celeste where dying can help you get a bigger picture and encourage you to try again.
Bitch MCR just got back together I ain't dyin' yet!
I clicked on this video because the thumbnail was from Wandersong and I love that game, and how it’s incredibly fun even though it’s not violent and mostly not that difficult. Good video.
"Relaxing and zen-inducing-" shows Celeste.
Are we talking about the same platformer?
"Because no-one likes dieing"
Void-craving millenials and Gen Zers: "Allow us to introduce ourselves..."
As a gen zer not everyone does this but it's hard to find people that don't and its annoying.
What is Void-craving?
As a GenZ, I find other GenZ’s batshit insane
@@Nova-du5on most of us are. I'm fucking nuts sure but I have my moments of sanity atleast XD. in all seriousness we're definitely far more varied in personality than other generations
Well when you get to start your life with mass terror attacks ruining the world you live in, causing a war with no end in sight that has lasted over 2 decades already, it tends to mess you up a bit.
3:52 "Challenge", "Learning how to not suck"? Too hard! Needs *easy mode!*
I really enjoyed this video and it's sad that almost none of the top comments address any of the points that you made. Most people are just like "noooo video games don't cause violence" when I would argue that your video isn't even about that.
Adam, can you do a video on games that intertwine the mechanics and the story? For example Lisa the Painful. The sacrificing of party members and parts of yourself is a very novel and interesting idea from a designer and consumer standpoint.
Thank you for that description, honestly
Frostpunk is also a really good pseudo-nonviolent game.
A very clear example of a ridiculously violent game presented in a non confrontational way, actually. People get killed in absolutely gruesome ways, often as a direct result of your choices, including the elderly and children, but the struggle is not based around killing, but around surviving. To be fair, it is pretty much confrontantional as you are basically fighting against nature itself in a very direct way.
@@C0C0L0QUIN The game has some violent options (prisons and "forced re-education" in special), although those are not shown graphically, and it's possible to avoid them.
But you're right, the game is much more about decision making and management than confrontation.
It's a cool game, but it is heavily scripted. You will play this game only 2-3 times and then you will get bored.
@@Czesnek 2-3 times is good enough
@@Czesnek you don't need to play a game 3 dozen times to get your money's worth out of it.
Journey doesn't need to be played more than once, and it's one of the best gaming experiences of all time. On the other hand, you could play the Souls series a dozen times and still not try every fighting style in the game, and it's still fun.
Different games do different things.
Exhibit A - My little brother
Games that let you blow up anything you want: Perfectly chill and happy while detonating an entire city
Agar.io: After dying a few times begins to be visibly frustrated
Few more deaths: Slamming the keyboard and storms off snapping at anyone who talks to him
Watching this video reminded me of a game on the wii called endless ocean where the only struggle was solving the mystery of a white whale but it was so cathartic in how relaxing it was.
I've watched enough House M.D. to know for certain that it's never Lupus
I'll be getting Celeste and Wandersong for my switch! Great video, love your content
There’s something extra I have to thank you for making this video. You reminded me about abzu I had watched some of it before but that was years ago and now I know it’s for ps4 and switch.
Let's not forget *BRUTAL CHEX QUEST* .
It might bee lupus
Great way to say "yeah, people is complex, this is just one of a hundred reasons of it"
Don't be ridiculous, it's never lupus.
Thank you for recommending Wandersong. I have completed this wonderful game, and for me it's a lot. I play many games, but mostly only for a few days and then move to another. To finish game is kind of huge for me, it means game did something right to hook me up so I want to find whats at the end of it. I mostly play villains in games, I like playing villains, and here playing warm and cheerful bard in beautiful world was something special.
Thank you.
when this video first came out i laughed at the lupus diagnosis bit, but just yesterday i tested positive for lupus (from a completely different set of symptoms). remembering this video did put some levity to the moment, so thanks for indirectly putting a bright moment in an otherwise bleak day. also a super belated thanks for the recommendation of wandersong, i got to bond with my now best friend while he was in a bad place while we played this.
This sort of burn out thing happened to me with competetive games. I loved games like Smite or CSGO. I would enjoy playing endless ranked matches with my friends, trying to beat the other team. But after playing so many competetive games, the idea of playing "Ranked" in any kind of game now makes me puke. It just sucked the joy out overtime. When your focus shifts from having fun to winning then I'm just not enjoying myself anymore.
I had contention with the "all violent games feel the same" but you expanding on it so far, so Ill wait, but it isnt all, it is just *some* or maybe *a lot*
10:48 another like this is shovel knight yes it has more combat with bosses and minibosses it has lots of small puzzles that are usually difficult to overcome And every new level bringing in a new mechanic to learn to master
I can barely think of any time I’ve caused any violence from a video game.
Well, except maybe that time a threw a tube of toothpaste at a friend after losing at Super Mario Party but that’s beside the point.
Hi mystic one of your subs found you