Cylinder Bore Scoring - Part 3: How To Prevent it? - with Lake Speed Jr.
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2021
- In this final installment on cylinder bore scoring, Lake Speed Jr. from Total Seal Piston rings and Charles Navarro from LN Engineering discuss how to reduce the likelihood of cylinder bore scoring in water-cooled Porsche Boxster, Cayman, and 911 engines as well as many other engines with hypereutectic aluminum Alusil or Lokasil engine blocks.
We all know how important surface finish is to the proper function of the piston/ring/cylinder system and it is this surface finish that dictates the bearing surface curve, or the ability of the surface to support a load, when properly lubricated.
Remember the 4 R’s - there right oil, in the right place, in the right amount, at the right time. If you don’t get all 4 right, wear or failure can occur.
So what is the right oil? Ever since the early 2000s, manufacturers have been pushing for improved fuel economy as mandated by CAFE, better known as the corporate average fuel economy requirements, which results in fines to be paid by manufacturers who don’t meet this government mandated requirements. Thinner and thinner oils provide manufacturers an easy way to improve fuel economy, but at what cost? Increased wear.
Oils have also been reformulated to low or even no SAPS (sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur) to extend the life of emissions protection devices such as catalytic converters and particulate filters, as again, these devices are mandated to have much longer warranties by our governments than the typical bumper to bumper or powertrain warranties most vehicles have.
This means that most manufacturer recommended lubricants have lower anti-wear additives and reduced HTHS (high temperature high sheer) viscosities which directly affect the formation of anti-wear films and the thickness of oil film that protects internal engine components. Where this might not immediately cause a problem, over time, the longevity of an engine can and often is affected negatively by these oils leading to failures outside of the warranty period.
For years we have recommended simply using a 5w40 rather than a 0w40 can sometimes yield as high as a 10 percent increase in HTHS viscosity and improve the shear stability of oils. We have also recommended uses of a full-SAPS or mid-SAPS oil where possible to reduce wear, but as OEM oil requirements change, it becomes increasingly hard to find oils that meet these requirements as seen with Porsche Classic releasing oils for 996 and earlier models in higher viscosities and with increased levels of anti-wear additives.
But don’t take our word for it. Like we’ve mentioned in previous newsletters, used oil analysis can be used to evaluate how well your engine is wearing as well as if your oil is doing a good job protecting your engine.
So specifically for a Porsche engine with Alusil or Lokasil bores, using an oil with higher HTHS viscosity with added molybdenum (moly) is something that can help with slowing down the ultra-mild wear regime for Al-Si (aluminum silicon) cylinder systems. Popular with many is the LM Ceratec additive which boosts moly content, but using Driven DT40 or DI40 oils provides a fully-formulated oil that doesn’t require additional additives that typical A40 and C40 oils don’t have anywhere near the concentrations that Driven’s oils have.
ZDDP alone won’t reduce wear as the Zn and P can’t bond to the aluminum. That’s where the moly comes in. Moly can form “glassy plates” on any surface in the engine and is activated by temperature and pressure. This tribofilm is what can slow down the wear in Alusil and Lokasil engines along with the increased film strength provided by Driven DT40 and DI40 oils.
Another issue we find with many engines that have suffered from bore scoring are those cylinders that have scored often have bad injectors. Dirty or leaky injectors can wash the cylinder bore down. Remember, fuel is a solvent, not a lubricant. Using a fuel system cleaner with PEA (polyetheramine) provides the strongest possible cleaning agent to keep your injectors clean. Ethanol enriched fuels are known to cause corrosive wear, so a fuel additive that also provides protection from ethanol corrosion is warranted.
If you haven’t watched it already, be sure to check out our CZcams videos with Tony Callas from Callas Rennsport on Porsche Engine Diagnostics including video on the topics of Modern Fuels and Maintenance, Vacuum Leaks, Manometer and Smoke Testing, and finally, Fuel Trims. These videos provide additional information pertinent to keeping your engine running correctly which goes a long way to reducing the chances of your Porsche engine suffering from cylinder bore scoring. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Cayenne owner here. Having the proper care and oil is so crucial for these engines, I've seen way too many cars with bore scoring. Fingers crossed on my current ride, it has the quietest CTT V8 I've heard so far. Currently has LM 5w-40 with 2 bottles of ceratec, but next oil change is getting the LN Engineering spin on filter + DT40 oil!
Ceratec has done well by Cayenne owners. The added friction modifiers as explained can bind with the aluminum cylinder walls, where ZDDP only interacts with ferrous surfaces. However, using DT40 or DI40 if you have a 2008 or later with direct injection will provide equal or better protection than an A40 oil with Ceratec or a moly additive added and cost difference should be negligible as you have to use two bottles of the Ceratec at every oil change because of the amount of oil these engines take. The proof of how well the Driven oils work is in the used oil analysis results we see posted on the forums time and time again. There really isn't any other oil that performs as well as Driven DT40 and DI40 in Porsche engines.
This is massively enlightening! Thank you for this. Shall apply it to all vehicles going forward! 996, 991, r107, w124 owner and student here 🙈
You are most welcome!
Ty for this. Best/most informative video I’ve seen on YT about bore scoring.
Glad you enjoyed it!
wow!!! this is great information for a 996 owner...these little 'awarenesses" of your protocol in maintaining your 911
are so valuable...and like the AMA for health most shops are not going to give you the real skinny cos they like to see
your shining face(credit card) quite often...the info on the injectors is the first time ive heard this and it makes
sense to spotlight your fuel system ,fuel quality, fuel delivery and fuel consumption...great video and thank you for the
hours you have in investigating the nuances of Porsche maintenance and care...cheers!!
I'm glad you found our series on bore scoring beneficial. We just want to make sure everyone knows that although there are solutions to fix the problem, there are also steps that every owner can take to minimize the likelihood of these cylinder failures in their Porsche engines. If you want to learn more about AlSi cylinder systems and why bore scoring occurs, we have a white paper that was published a few years back that goes through the topic in great detail available for download at lnengineering.com/products/watercooled-porsche-cylinders-sleeves-and-pistons/bore-scoring/free-download-understanding-bore-scoring-in-al-si-cylinder-systems-by-charles-navarro.html
Love liquid moly been adding the stuff to my cars trucks race cars boats for 51 years . Some of my cars and trucks have twin turbos direct injection 4 cams alloy block and have 400000 km and only service oil changes filters and some valve and carbon remover sprayed into intake every year . Also use a good injector cleaner in the fuel a few times a year
Great idea to run a complete fuel system cleaner with PEA (polyetheramine) at least every 2-3k miles, even if you run a Top Tier fuel. I personally run one bottle of Injector Defender every other fill-up.
Super helpful! , my 997.1 with 125K is still running near perfect and this really helps
Glad it helped!
I have the same 997.1..2005 model..
Have you ever had your engine rebuilt with that mileage?
I had mine rebuilt at 72,000 miles I’m in the Uk…New ims and pistons/Liners etc…😢
Thank you for this. This was a great video.
Glad you found our video helpful!
Thanks alot .....
Happy to help
Great info. Please share fuel trim ranges and UOA ranges for m9x engines.
Here is a video from Tony Callas of Callas Rennsport explaining fuel trims:
czcams.com/video/HW7BmBIJDXs/video.html
Thanks guys. I really admire your work. I have a 981 GT4 and have a question no one seems to be able to answer. I always run my engine below 3000 rpm's until the oil temperature reaches 180 degrees. I then run the engine until the engine oil has been held above 212 for a period I think is long enough to boil any moisture off. I then turn to sport mode which lowers the oil temperature below the boiling point for the remainder of my drive. My question is; for normal driving is it better to have the oil temperature in the 220-30 range or at the lower non water boiling temperatures? Thanks and great work. I have watched all your videos.
Hi Greg. I don't think you have anything to worry about with your engine. Everything you are doing is great. What's most important is that you change the oil more often - at most every 6 months or 5,000 miles and if you do track the car, changing the after every event is key.
Great stuff guys! What's your take on low temp thermostat? Hartech in England does not mention fuel injectors at all as a leading factor of bore scoring, but rather hot spot issues and cylindres becoming more oval with time. Thanks!
We were the first to offer a low temperature thermostat for the M96 engine and we are huge proponents of using one. With regards to localized hot spots, using a low temperature thermostat that remains open rather than cycling open and closed during normal operation directly addresses this issue.
We have found several engines where a bad injector (verified by sending out all the injectors for testing) could be directly connected to bore scoring in a single cylinder. This results in the cylinder bores being washed down and this loss of proper lubrication has a negative effect on cylinder wear. A well known shop contacted us after putting in a new factory shortblock where they reused the injectors. Within 3,000 miles, the same cylinder scored again. It doesn't take long for a bad injector to cause a problem.
Thank you Both a lot. Q..If 2 seniors daily drive a 99 996 3.4...best oil ? Tks again
For the 996 we recommend DT40 with a 6 month or 5,000 mi service interval, whichever comes first.
I bought a Speed Diagnosix kit after watching this. When I send the oil in for analysis, will I get a recommendation which oil to buy?
(Currently driving a 1998 Boxster 2.5L)
We recommend Driven DT40 exclusively in place of the factory A40 approved oils for street use.
Would you have a recommendation for 957 Cayenne S please? Haven't seen Driven brand available in Europe much. I believe the spec is Porsche C30. Thank you!
You might check with Custom Concepts in Benelux. They stock Driven products and might be able to supply it to you. The Driven equivalent to the C30 oil is DI30. If not available, you might try Motul or Liqui-Moly as they should have Porsche spec oils. Another brand that we like is Millers, but I do not believe they make anything equivalent to the C30.
You are providing the community with good information. Agree with everything you are saying but one comment @ 11:30 in the video. I wouldn't want people to get the idea that the type of base oil doesn't matter and people don't need to "fixate on it" -- I don't think you are saying it doesn't matter but are saying it's not the only factor. But in fact the type of the base oil is extremely important. At some point in the video you are talking about tribofilms and their importance. ZDDP and Moly are key here but you can also get non-sacrificial reaction films from complex esters for example. PAOs also very important as well. In short, the base oil definitely matters. This is a situation of "necessary but not sufficient"................
Thanks for your reply. In the scope of the discussion on bore scoring, all the applicable oils to watercooled Porsche engines will share similar chemistry. Most owners use an A40 approved oil which by design are all very similar. But yes, if you widen your scope outside this issue and the oils typically used in these Porsche engines, there can indeed be large differences in performance of an oil based on what base stock is used and the additive technology employed. I will add that in our own testing, we have seen similar performance from a group 2 oil (such as Driven GP-1) compared to a more expensive synthetic (such as DT40), however how long you can run each oil will vary greatly depending on application and operating conditions. To further the point we were trying to get across, if you have an API SN rated low SAPS full synthetic oil and say a full SAPS non synthetic, in our experience at least in Porsche engines we will see less wear from non-synthetic. The ultimate point we were trying to get across is just because an oil is synthetic does not mean that it's good or will perform well in every application.
@@lnengineeringllc Well said, I appreciate the information. I know LN specializes in Porsche and that’s the platform I cut my teeth on and know best. But your experience and knowledge are directly applicable to several European brands (and maybe others). Almost all of the knowledge you are graciously offering applies to the Audi platform, for example. GDI engines come with incredible benefits…that said, it is not without caveats.
I have a Nissan 370Z with 57k miles on it that still shows no oil consumption on the dipstick at the end of my 3k mile oil change intervals. I have used Shell V-Power Nitro+ along with Redline SI-1 complete fuel system cleaner(1/3 oz per gallon) since the car was new. The oil that I use, Nissan ester oil, has a high molybdenum content and has been formulated specifically for my engine. Used oil analyses of this oil in this engine show it shearing down from a 30 to a 20 grade oil, hence my frequent oil changes.
Good choice to use Shell fuels. Redline SI-1 is one of the few fuel additives that are worth using. Chevron Complete Fuel System Treatment (the more expensive one) would also be suitable, although I'm partial to Driven Injector Defender. You might want to consider Driven's LS30. You are likely to see it holds its viscosity much better and I would expect lower wear levels. For comparison, we have the same issue with the factory Porsche fill which shears from a 40 to a 30 grade sometimes in as little as 1000 miles.
@@lnengineeringllc Thanks for the info on those products; I'll definitely check out the fuel additive. I'm going to go with a fill of Redline 5W-30 at my next oil change and then run a used oil analysis after 3k miles and see where it's at on the wear metals. I had run Motul 300V 5W-40 for 3k miles but had disappointingly high levels of iron, with everything else perfect. If the Redline doesn't pan out I'll definitely try the Driven oil.
Is there any benefit to using Ceratec with the Driven DT40 Oil?
No. Driven DT40 has more friction modifiers in it than adding Ceratec to the LM A40 approved oil, so you are already ahead of the game. We do not recommend using oil additives. The exception is Ceratec or LM MoS2 when added to one of LM's oils, so you know you aren't going to have additive clash. Otherwise, it's a science experiment.
Agree with your comments but if the manufacturers find out your using different oil then warranty will be void
In our case, we're dealing with vehicles that are most of the time out of warranty and that that point, any lubricant can be used. In the case of engines under warranty, more frequent changes along with using a better factory approved oil (which there are many to choose from) can go a long way.
hey Guys. thanks for all the information. i dont see the links to the products mentioned, and need some clarification on your mention of of specific reccomendation of oil viscosity and brands of oil that contain Moly.
Assuming you need a 5w40 or 0w40, Driven's DT40 would work for a port injected engine with a hypereutectic engine block (such as Alusil or Lokasil) with uncoated aluminum bores:
lnengineering.com/joe-gibbs-racing-driven-dt40-full-synthetic-5w40-european-sports-car-oil-case-of-12-quarts-02406.html
Driven DI40 would be for appropriate for a direct injected engine:
lnengineering.com/joe-gibbs-racing-driven-di40-synthetic-5w40-direct-injection-sports-car-oil-12-quarts-18406.html
These are the two oils we recommend for most, if not all, Porsche applications.
@@lnengineeringllc thank you for the reply i have a 97 986 boxter 63k & a 2001 996 32k
Which are these dorect or port. ? Also i have no clue which coating is on blocks n pistons.
@@blakechesbro3602 You can use DT40 in both your 986 and 996. Both engines have port injection and Lokasil engine blocks. The 986 is unlikely to give you any cylinder bore scoring issues but the 996 can.
@@lnengineeringllc sorry to continue but if both have port injection and Lokasil blocks why would the 996 and not the 986, what would be the reason for the diffrence ?
@@blakechesbro3602 There are differences between the engines that contribute to the 996 having more bore scoring issues. The 986 has a cast piston where the 996 has a forged piston and the required iron clad coatings applied to the pistons also are different. The piston and coating used in the 986 holds up better; when the coating fails on the piston skirt on the 996 piston, you end up with aluminum to aluminum contact and galling which results in cylinder bore scoring. If you would like to learn more about bore scoring, grab this free download from our website:
lnengineering.com/products/watercooled-porsche-cylinders-sleeves-and-pistons/bore-scoring/free-download-understanding-bore-scoring-in-al-si-cylinder-systems-by-charles-navarro.html
I think you guys have way too simplified your discussion of oil. I have seen oils with lower viscosity have higher wear protection than higher viscosity oils. The oil formulation with the additive package is much more important than the viscosity.
I agree we did oversimplify with regards to oil as our discussion is specific to Lokasil cylinder bore scoring and the M96 engine as well as engines with Alusil blocks. Many choose to use a factory approved oil which all have similar chemistry based on the Porsche A40 approval, so your only variable then is viscosity and we know from years of used oil analysis the an increase in HTHS viscosity with these engines does translate into less wear (at the expense of fuel economy). You are correct that formulation is as important if not more important than viscosity - a thicker oil without the correct additives certainly will not perform as well as that same oil with a more robust additive package. That is why we recommend "boutique" engine oils and don't care for A40 oils when it comes to addressing these cylinder bore scoring issues common to hypereutectic engine blocks used by Porsche and other manufacturers.
The two are not mutually exclusive and the key is finding the combination that works best for your particular engine. For example, I'm running DI40 in a turbocharged GDI Audi 2.0T -- to your point it is a thinner oil than the factory fill but provides much better protection (both directly against wear with ZDDP and Moly but also via prevention of soot agglomerates). Unfortunately even with a simplified discussion of oil most people are still missing even the most basic understanding. Just go over to the forums and look at the type of oil people run in these engines.....it is shocking.
So if I find a sub-20k mile cayman S, would it be a safe buy still? And what would be the best preventative maintenance to do in addition to replacing the fuel injectors to assure engine longevity, assuming bore scoring hasn't already begun from being driven so little?
I'd recommend a PPI with bore scoping carried out with the piston at TDC through the sump. Used oil analysis would also be good to do if the oil in the engine has at least 1000 miles on it and if the seller is willing to let you have it tested to look for elevated wear metals or fuel dilution. We also have a guide as to things you can do to help prevent bore scoring once you know everything is still good with the engine:
lnengineering.com/products/watercooled-porsche-cylinders-sleeves-and-pistons/bore-scoring/tips-on-how-to-prevent-porsche-bore-scoring.html
@@lnengineeringllc i had been reading through the article you linked. I'll have to bookmark it so I can go back and look through it. Thanks for such invaluable information.
@@drtm1718 You are most welcome!
can a 5w-30 and 10w-30 oil from the same brand be mixed?
You should be safe to mix different viscosities of the same brand assuming they are formulated similarly.
so which oil would everyone recommend for a 2014 Cayman s?
We recommend Driven DI40 for direct injected engines that call for a 0w40 or 5w40 or any Porsche engine that calls for a C40 spec oil. It has a healthy dose of Moly and increased HTHS viscosity, both of which should help protect the cylinder bore walls better.
@@lnengineeringllc thank you for the info
What are your thoughts on Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer as a additive product to engine oil for these engines?
That product basically is a really thick oil. In a modern engine with tight clearances, it would not be advisable to use a product like that. The next best thing would be to run a 5w50 oil which will provide slightly better film strength. In that case, we run Driven's FR50 or even DT50 if in a warmer climate since these oils also provide a good dose of Moly which will help reduce cylinder wear. That's something the Lucas oil additive does not have.
Would this apply on a 4 stroke small engine like a gx200 ( lawn mower engine )?
Although we are unfamiliar with this particular model and application, most of our recommendations are certainly applicable. Using the best quality oil and following a manufacturer's severe service interval recommendations is always recommended. If severe service OCI is not specified, cutting the factory recommendation in half is a good starting point. Doing used oil analysis is also a great way to verify engine and lubricant health. lnengineering.com/speediagnostix-sdx-10001-used-oil-analysis-kit.html
@@lnengineeringllc I’ll definitely have to send you guys a sample later on . Wouldn’t hurt to know what’s going on in there and gain knowledge on what’s best for these engines . Ty 🙏🏻
Where are Driven products sold in Canada? Specifically British Columbia.
We do ship to Canada regularly, but brokerage charges with UPS make this cost prohibitive. I would recommend contacting Driven directly at drivenracingoil.com/contact.html as they should be able to hook you up with a local distributor.
I am only interested in longevity not fuel consumption. My car lives in a garage only driven in good weather. So what oil? My view is use a good oil and change it. Say A40 Porsche spec. I do it every 6 mths, 1500 miles. Driving habit? Never less than 60 miles in a day. So. 5w40, 5w50, 10w 50? High Zinc? Is it critical? My M96 rebuilt by Hartech (UK) 30,000 miles ago. Your oil is not readily available in the UK. We can use E5 premium tn the UK, fortunately! Thanks.
I believe Millers oils are readily available in the UK and that would be my go to for your engine.
Hi, I was looking to buy a base 2.7L cayman and get it mapped to perform similar to the s version. By adding more power to the base model, is there a possibility that I could run into the same possiblity for bore scoring issues with the extra power as the s model? I really only want about the same power that the s model comes with but I am trying to avoid any sort of possibility of bore scoring.
Thanks!
A tune won't bring you S level performance. At most you can probably hope for 5-10 more horsepower, so I'd recommend not having a tune done. The base model 2.7 doesn't really have any issues with bore scoring that I have seen, so no worries there.
Get the 2.7 ‘sport’ edition as that is quicker with the 6 speed box. The std 2.7 5 speed gearbox has terribly long ratios, really blunts the performance.
Why cant nikasil be applied to 7075 aluminum?
Great question. 7075 has poor plating response so there can be adhesion issues with the Nikasil plating. For custom jobs where extra strength is needed, we use 2024, however it's very expensive.
@@lnengineeringllc Interesting! Can 2024 be nikasil coated? What about the 7075 gives it a poor plating response?
Thanks so much for the response!
@@beachboardfan9544 Yes, 2024 actually plates a bit easier than the 6 series aluminum we use. With regards to aluminums, one of the characteristics that is typically listed for a given alloy is plating response and 7 series aluminums are known for poor plating response which can lead to the aforementioned adhesion issues. We recently did some 911 cylinders in 2024 and it added almost $1000 to the cost of the set of cylinders just in additional aluminum costs, not to mention, getting the material in today's world is another issue entirely!
@@lnengineeringllc Where does one find plating response stat's for a given material? I'm usually using ASM matweb for material properties/selection.
Thanks so much I've been trying to get an answer on stuff like this for about two weeks. Even contacted millenium coatings and they wouldnt respond because I'm not a commercial venture.
@@beachboardfan9544 It's been 20+ years since we did that research so I don't remember which reference we used to look up plating response for a given alloy. I can tell you that 6061-T6511 is readily available and works well for making cylinders in a pinch and the nikasil plating has good adhesion with that alloy. There are several other more exotic aluminums we use, but you can't go wrong with 6061-T6511.
Prevent it a little bit.
Although impossible to prevent the chance of failure by 100%, there is a lot you can do. We've recently posted a follow up to this video with more info on steps you can take to improve your chances of not having a failure: lnengineering.com/products/watercooled-porsche-cylinders-sleeves-and-pistons/bore-scoring/tips-on-how-to-prevent-porsche-bore-scoring.html
my 987.2,,,,,2.9L Has an oscillating tick,,,,,TIC TIC TIC TIC TIC ,,,,,PAUSE,,,,,TIC TIC TIC TIC TIC ,,,,PAUSE .
Whats up with that? 111,000 miles .
Since the base model with the 2.9 does not have direct injection, it's not going to be coming from the high pressure fuel pump. The DI injectors are also noisier than the port injection injectors, so it is unlikely that is is injector noise either. I would recommend taking it into a shop so that they can do diagnostics - i.e. does the noise go away with the clutch depressed or if you remove the serpentine belt. That way you can isolate whether it is transmission or accessory related. Does the sounds vary depending on speed or engine temperature, etc. If it is determined that it is indeed something internal in the engine making the noise, I'd recommend doing used oil analysis as the first step to rule out cylinder bore scoring, but I do not think that is your issue.
@@lnengineeringllc Thank you ,,,Much love