What We Can Learn From the Dumpster Fire that was Tree of Savior
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- My deep dive into the quagmire that was Tree of Savior, 7 years in the making.
0:00:00 Introduction, Background, and Pre-Release
0:10:48 Quests and Story
0:25:28 Progression, Grinding, and Character Building
0:46:14 Open World and Exploration
1:09:29 Miscellaneous Gripes and Nitpicks
1:18:29 Closing Thoughts and Personal Feelings
All music used is from Tree of Savior OST unless otherwise noted.
[External Sources]
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The worst and saddest part about TOS was its lost potential. So much is there, yet more is missing.
What I love about Ragnarok Online:
•No daily quest stuff. Once you log-in, it's all on you. You wanna grind? Sure. Tired of grinding? Go hang out in GH and create a buff party.
•Quests are not forced on you.
•Rewards from some quest are really rewarding. My favorite is "The Sign" quest that gives you a great accessory and the ability to open the gate to Geffenia.
•Fun PVP thanks to Guildwars.
•Etc. It's just fun for me.
😃
i still miss my Ninja Murm that i spent so much time waiting on a flower......... people playing now will never understand that flower quest
oh yean and specially when shinobi could copy certain classes skills, then suddenly swordman circle skills dont feel useless with clones copying skills, giant burst damage that eat the bosses in one go. certainly rewarding for all that time doing the secret quest...
Appraiser flower watering...
What a run. The man actually did it.
1:23 dont forget that a lot of classes have blanetely the same costume. best example is Rogue who is literally wearing his Ragnarok outfit.
tos goes hard, arts so damn good, combats intuitive, heaps of content, unique class system with crazy build variety ect ect. Dev greed aside, the game is super solid and insanely well made dude.
edit: to my point, play the game with a xbox or ps controller and you'll see how much thought really went into player core experience. The way they designed the layout puts to shame most, like fr most if not all (path of exile ties) pc console control schemes, they put heart and genius thought into tht sht.
Nice video! I was thinking about giving TOS a chance, but your points made really clear to me that is no point in it. The grinding part was specially a big no no for me.
I think your video was clear, had good audio, editing and the images complements the comments really well. My only note is that it could be a little shorter.
Anyways, I subbed and hope to see more videos from you :)
Dude this was the kind of thing I think about TOS all the time!!! Just like many friends of mine think of TOS, still!!!! If a new successor to this game or a new server comes I will play again. I also cried thinking of how fun I had with TOS specially because I had friends with me with RO and and TOS, and also had fun when I didn't have them with me
Thanks for this video brother, I agree with you on so many points with this video.. But i still decide to be in love and continue to play the game despite it's obvious shortcomings
7 yrs huh.. thank you ❤
Man, this game had so much potential. Too bad whoever was running the show only wanted to milk its playerbase.
Man, I'd let them milk me if they'd just had a solid game to play. Or anything redeeming at all. I whale in FGO because even though the gameplay is actually trash, the characters and stories have gotten so much better over time.
Giveaway of boosts, gear and currency was the core issue, Nothing says "were desperate, the game is dying" like giving away progression. It devalues the whole process of progression and inventivizes people to not play and just wait for boost.
Wooot woot time to play Tree of Savior
Now I wanna play RO, thx for your work also was playing TOS for the last 2 Weeks, still enjoy it but you got a lot of good point, was a pleasure to listing to your thoughts ^^
I had never played an rpg before this game only continued to keep playing because it looks straight out of an anime the beutiful visuals are the only thing that bring me back
I agree with a lot of points. This game had so much potential. I am still a big fan of their unique art style, I just love it! Up until now, I just want them to maybe start this game again with best foot forward -- I will play this game again.
I still remember the feeling of playing that game, i wanted to love it so bad, even though it was already dead for two years. I loved its concept and it still gives me the feels when I think about it. However, it's painful to see how messy it has become. What bothered me the most was the lack of depth in the world and the low level of interactivity.
He did it!
I really tried to give this game a chance early on. I remember also being hyped before release. At one point, I even started reverse engineering the game with the goal of making a compatible server emulator for it. Even though I was making great progress, I realized it was so fruitless - every patch was just worse than the previous, and it really made me lose all my motivation. I then thought that even if myself or someone else succeeds in this, the amount of changes that would have to be made to make the game redeemable are overwhelming. It would be better off to just make a new game from scratch. There is some part of me deep down that doesn't want to give up on it though. I really want the game to succeed.
Don't give up!! Make the private server 😍
I was looking into starting Tree of Savior, I hadn't even heard of it until Josh Strife Hayes did a review of it. I had been swept up in Wow for so many years I skipped so many good MMOs, I love your passion for the game. I think I will pick it up once I finish the main storyline of my current MMO I'm playing through.
Endgame's just a hot mess of contradicting design choices, and you'd probably either never finish this video or it would be much longer than it already is if you ever did make it there.
Lol, I watched all of HoriHorizon's video on it and it's somehow longer than mine. Really interesting, if a little sad, look into what even lies behind that giant wall of crappy game design. And who woulda thunk it, there's just more crappy grinding. Tragic.
It's only gotten worse since that video was posted. Basically to the point of needing an event to catch you up or hoping veterans help you out, made even worse by the game's current state which heavily discourages the latter.
Honestly, ur video is great and I agree with ur sentiment of the game. I also always checked the subreddit or steam news to check if they would re-release the game or sms despite all those years.
I also believe that this game is the "easiest" to improve than any other MMO in market while having a huge potential, or at least they could make a sequel. IMO, It really can be amazing, but the devs would need to take some risks.
Anyway, what project are you working on? A Ragnarok mmo or something related to that?
I love how everyone knew how great this game potential was, And disappoint how it turn to be.
I miss being able to play RO and TOS,there is a lot of room for new servers to spin up, private TOS servers would be perfect!!!!
Really a fresh start for a TOS server is private servers, RO is still kind of alive because of private servers
The thing is, even with all the problems we had, if there is a new server people will come and it will have lots of people!!
Probably you had more passion than the devs themself.
You nailed what the game did wrong which probably the devs themself never come to understand of
I know it's sad when the things you are rooting for never become the hope people wanted it to be.
Anyway,
Now time to become a Helldiver (I recommend the game)
hope it can give you a new fun.
I miss the old day when they don't give you every class at the start and hidden class is actually hidden. I remember when i wanted to unlock the miko class, it took me a day to do it. Sure it's cancer but it's a memory i still remember fondly after i quit the game a long time ago.
Tree of Savior was a great game. What happened was, the Ragnarok Online community simply grew up and realized life is OP and went off to do other things. Me for example played ToS on launch, got super far ahead, took a break, and came back to find the whole system changed. didnt bother with game afterwards.
I love how everyone knew how great this game potential was, And disappointed how it turn to be.
After finished the video, This video not only explain how Tree of Savior failed, But also explain how the game enjoyable.
Most gamers nowadays thinking to be better than others are enjoyable, either in Skills or Skins, But we forgot it is about experience. GRINDING could be fun, Exploring could be fun, Losing also could be fun, The most important is to make an enjoyable game. If things are enjoyable people would spend time on it. Like this video I watch in through without any pause because it is enjoyable to do so.
My feedback. regardless of servers (Papaya & Steam).
At level 467, you will grind at top speed in Lv470 area for 3 to 4 hours top for a level.
And the next level requirement for your growth gear is 480.
So you basically, have to grind from 467 to 480 to effective kill monsters.
Why you need to grind? Cause there's no more quest, and exp dungeons are gear score blocked.
Other info: it take me 7 days to hit 467 from lv1. So basically new player retention is 7 days.
I'm sorry to tell you but you're never getting those seven days back. My condolences.
To be honest the problem its more meeting the gear score for content than leveling up.
im not a new player, neither a "master class pro MLG player" tree of savior, but fair experienced with the game, despite not playing RO before, i played the game on it founder launch, and at that time reaching lvl 280 i think was the max cap was a real trouble because quest stopped around 220 and you have to grind those last levels where the exp curve was a pain.
right now is easy to reach lvl 480, grab one of these x32 exp tome you get from episode rewards, BEFORE TO USE YOUR EXP TOME, check your TOS coins, you will only get dungeon reser voucher and dungeon multplier token, 1 reset voucher reset your 3 runs, and you will only need 2 tokens per voucher, and spam dungeon 200, just be sure to activate your dungeon multiplier before enter the dungeon (and of course your x32 exp tome) and start doing runs. you will get exp so easy and of course some spare cards and talts to sell and get money. EXP tome buff isnt consume while you are in town, but running dungeon or going to other maps will consume it buff time. its what i did when i didnt found someone to grind me to 480 and i did when the server was "healthy"
but when you switch your gear to 480 gear and start upgrading it you will see the problem its as soon it ask blessed shard to be upgraded. there few ways to get the blessed shards and the content that give you a decent amount its locked behind GS that most likely you will not meet because you are in a new 480 gear and the success on enhace your gear at 480 its not the same as the royal guardian set so you will fail a lot and you will lose those few shards you get. so reaching the GS to play new content and improve your gear will take more time.
The lack of thought for new / return players are pretty common through out this game, as there focus has been those who has been playing long and paying more. More than Blessed Shard, the upgrade from Guardian gear at +0 Falo is pretty difficult to do raid, and their balancing is based on high rank stats and meta classes.
Furthermore, it is their intention to make it linear progress, one raid by one raid, so that people will progress slowly with their lack of content, and make people paying more to progress. Pretty much become a cash grab game, particularly, with pay to win classes (you can either pay to get it from gacha or buy it off from player market)
1,016.08 hours is what i have spent on this game together a few $$ from the beta to paid launch and also never reached end game since playing alone can run the end game content feelsbadman
basically the same for me, i can reach endgame but what i cannot do its endgame content like raids because my build its not DPS meta so players if they see you arent one of DPS meta classes they leave the automatch.
i just want the class tree system with grindy mechanics and you can ignore quest or have quest worth the rewards to even try
I feel the ToS class system kinda deceiving, I thought it's like RO but no, each class only have like 3-5 skill, then you can mix and match with like 3/4 class, that means the most skill you have is like probably at most 20, and then some better class are locked sometimes behind paywall/gacha .... the last part is the worst , FOMO... well it's like Free game with dlc +++
@@artaizen1613 one thing they really missed is having a dedicated job/class for something
dps
support
cc
tank
all job/class are DPS lul
you never feel needing a support
feels like renewal all the way 80% solo 20% group
Bring back classic [insert game here]
still liked and subbed btw, you clearly put passion into this vid and the criticism are definitely valid, although you can literally levy them against the majority of mmorpgs or like, video games in general lol. If they watched your vid and addressed your criticism, the game would be a masterpiece, but that can also be said, again, about so many dope games with awesome devs but awful greedy publishers/:
make more videos man u are good
1:13:22
Costumes are class locked because it is more affordable production and development-wise.
I really want to love this game but didn't give me enough reason aside from music and animation. Hoping someday we will get true Ragnarok successor within our timeline, even if my grandchild gets to play it that will be a sight to behold. Thanks for a great review to the game
You have a smol audio issue, I can hear popping noises when "chapters" end, e.g. 25:26-25:28
Yeah, the depressing part is that I found out how to fix the issue only after I'd uploaded. Spent like almost 2 whole days trying to fix it smh. Hopefully it didn't detract too much from the message the video was trying to send.
omg! oh my goodness!!! oh my gosh!!!! poggers!!!!!!
sticking out your gyatt for nerizzler
you're so bau bau
you're so biboo tax
i just wanna be your shiori
You did this to yourself
@@projectlordsigma ばうばう
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スキビディ
@@projectlordsigma もう我慢できない。香菱にうんざりしている。ディルックを使おうとするが、私の香菱の方がダメージが高い。宵宮を使おうとするが、私の香菱の方がダメージが高い。シノを使おうとするが、私の香菱の方がダメージが高い。クレーを使いたい。彼女の最良のチームには香菱がいる。雷電将軍やタルタリヤを使いたいが、彼らも香菱を求める。彼女は私の首を掴む。彼女のために釣りをし、料理を作る。彼女に「ザ・キャッチ」を与える。それでも彼女は満足しない。私は「草薙の稲光」を引く。「こんなに多くのエレメンタルリチャージは必要ない」と彼女は言う。「もっと戦場に出してくれ。ホマがあればもっとダメージを出せる」と。ホマを引くための原石が足りない。彼女は私のクレジットカードを掴む。それは拒否される。「これが終わりか」と。彼女はグゥオパァーを掴む。「グゥオパァー、彼らをやれ」と言う。彼の目には悲しみの兆しはない。ただ純粋な、ICDのない火元素の適用だけ。何と残酷な世界だ。
眼鏡ってのはほんとにめちゃくちゃ多様性があるんですよねまず、眼鏡を掛けてる女の子が眼鏡を外して美少女だったりとか、逆に眼鏡を掛けてニコニコしてたり、主人公の眼鏡を奪って付けてる女子が「奪ってやったぞ♥️」みたいに掛けてそれもすごく可愛いんですよね。あと眼鏡男子もね、あの～眼鏡が怪しげに光ったり逆光してる姿とかもいいですし、かっこいい姿からギャグまで使いこなせるってのはめちゃめちゃいいんですよ。抽象でも対応できるところ(？)がめちゃめちゃいいんですよ。形とか色とかもその気分にあった眼鏡を着せ替えして楽しむのもほんとに楽しんですよ。アンダーリムとかね、緑の太いやつとかもね、ほんとに。ヴァイキングのようにめちゃめちゃ楽しめるんですよ、眼鏡はね。ルーナさんにかけてみたり、マリンさんも眼帯として眼鏡掛けてみたりとかホロライブ眼鏡はまじで流行ってほしい、ホロコミに出すべきだし、公式からみんなに眼鏡を付与してほしいと思わないかなぁ～？ 掛けたいよね 2人とも(圧)
the music is amazing the visuals are great but the whole time it felt as if the game was unfinish like if they moved to the next expansion without finishing the prevousone on repeat , the story was ok I guess but slow because of the grinding portion of the game pair that with a microtransaction wall and its just too much. I do belive that anyone that is interested should give it a run just to test the waters on this sinking ship.
The thing that killed the game fo me was: Having an active Pre-Order for the game, and still have Nexon's "You don't have the right payment method so we won't allow you to play." for a FREE game.
I started played again a couple weeks ago. New event gave me a max character with end game gear and a bunch of bonuses. 3months early start? Lol...
The headstart isnt a problem that killed the game. it was a progression tunel in ro i can start in 4 places and from there i can travel in different directions and explore. Leveling and journey feels different. In tos you start in two places and progress always in the same direction untill you reach klaipeda and then basically everyone is in one tunell..
Theres no free form exploration.
Tree of Savior as a game is fun. Very fun. What ruins it is IMC and Papaya's greed
kind of funny how almost everything in this 90 minute video aren't even part of the endgame lmao it's all just the parts they already disposed of but can't really take out.
TOS was at launch what every other old-school Asian MMO was turning into if they weren't like that by 2016. And then it just got worse from there. Such a shame...
we need a RO/diablo hybrid with open world etc
I love the ideas of mmos but I dont play ANY of them because I wasnt one of the first players, I cant pick up a multiplayer game that people have been playing for a while or I feel a constant nausea of always being behind in the community, not having limited time items, etc. I basically only played Runescape since 2007 because I had played that game since then but I stopped playing for a couple years and anytime I really want to play it again I feel like Ive missed all the updates and limited time things and dont end up playing it after all.
Ngl, I feel like games that make players feel like that are a problem. I saw someone say that the reason is to make current players feel fomo so that they keep playing regularly, but as someone who's missed a ton of content just because I'm bad it just makes me feel like 'Well, no point playing any more now since I already missed out." Would it be worth implemmenting a time machine sort of function that allows players to go back to older events? Maybe a limited amount or as a reward for login streaks?
How about they reset the whole game back again with class circles lol
I wish that'd work! Game was an even worse grindy slog back then. Though it does make me wonder, is there still a sizable market for the game if they gave it the FFXIV treatment?
At the first time this game launched and i played it, the game are really good..
but they adding more and more new bad features and item mall that dangerous for the game experience..
well, they really kill the game theirself..
what a great video, ToS really is a unfortunate game for sad reasons
me still on tos in 2024: F2P BTW
35:20. this.
Make world building and character design and lore and a whole bunch of other things great again.
Lithuanian mythology is so interesting. I was excited to explore a world seeped in it, but Tree of Savior is not it. A shame really. Thanks for the video!
The greatest potential, the worst optimization.
First rant seemed very tone deaf
Oho? Which part and why, if you dont mind me asking?
make a ToS 2 will be a redemption, the game engine is too old and too much limitation, it was RO strategy grid style with a bit more actions, i hope it will be more smoother action based with better game engine
i played ToS since launch 2013, the job mix & match mechanism and some skills combo was really fun, teaming with different build and be creative to clear different contents was one of best experience earlier.
Until later rank 7 damage inflation, low rank skill dmg% fall into trap of unscalable and high rank job dictated the end game, making the game narrow, PvP/GvG released too late as well kill the game.
Later i quitted when there was a major change of management and big revamp, character no longer chibi. Later, also too much quests to come back
imagine wasting all this time in tree of savior kek
3.4k hours 😅
The torture only makes us stronger
its 2024, despite the gravity attack on private servers Im still playing rangarok online and out of their jurisdiction this time...
tl;dr ToS sucks, go play Minecraft instead
YEs, every mob you fight thesame way.. Theres an optimal way to use your character and you dont have to do anything outside of that so it doesnt matter if the mob shoots or stabs, has aoe or not. You move, leave flame pillar and fire back running in a circle grinding the whole pack down... And you do thesame with bosses...
The final nail in the coffin was all the out of universe cash shop garbage like power ranger costumes...
chase the goddess macgufin is very bad for a story...