Coraline (2009) | A Child Friendly Horror About Abuse
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2024
- Coraline captures what it can really feel like to be a kid. And sometimes that's not great. Let's take a look at Coraline and how the writer Neil Gaiman uses our childhood experiences to make Coraline such a unique film, and why that matters.
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Big thanks to everyone who lent their voice for this video! Please check out their channels! (in order of appearance)
@Darkfry / darkfry
@SocraTetris / socratetres
JamJamJamJamuel / @jamjamjambling
@Aranock / aranock
And my wife Nina for helping me with the editing on this video! It's been great being able to work on these projects together
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0:00 Intro
1:11 Why is Coraline so Relatable?
6:02 What the F**k is Child Oppression Anyway?
12:13 The Bed You Wake Up In
16:08 It's A Small World
19:33 Why Coraline Matters
25:10 Conclusion
26:18 Recommendations & Thanks!
📚 SOURCES & RELATED READING
Are children oppressed? The timely importance of answering this question www.sciencedirect.com/science...
14th Amendment constitution.congress.gov/bro...
DeShaney v. Winnebago County en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShane...
Neil Gaiman: Why our future depends on libraries, reading and daydreaming www.theguardian.com/books/201...
Judge Rotenberg Educational Center en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_R...
Youth violence lower in countries with complete ban on corporal punishment www.mcgill.ca/newsroom/channe...
Convention on the Rights of the Child www.ohchr.org/en/professional...
“Corporal punishment bans and physical fighting in adolescents: an ecological study of 88 countries” by Elgar FJ, Donnelly PD
www.aclu.org/blog/human-right...
papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...
Channel Art by @enbodie
/ enbodie
/ enbodie
#Coraline #NeilGaiman - Zábava
I love this video, in fact I like any essay that uses Coraline as stepping stool.
But going back to your point of “Children should be treated like capable humans”(which I absolutely agree with), I think the first time it really *really* hit me that most people don’t consider children as fully fledged human is seeing how much... liberties people take with them.
For example, as an adult, you would NEVER go up to another person you’ve never met and just feel free to touch them, manhandle them, kiss them or whatever. When I worked as a cashier, the number of times I saw strangers grab hold a kid they don’t know and pinch their cheeks, or pat their heads or ask for a kiss was honestly terrifying to me. You don’t KNOW that child! Why are you touching them?! Why are the parents not saying anything?! God forbid when the parents *insist* the child agrees to give a hug or kiss even when they [the child] are clearly uncomfortable doing so.
And somehow the kids are supposed to differentiate between that and “stranger danger” all on their own? Yeah right. How do learn to enforce your boundaries when you’ve never been showed what they actually are?
That is such a great example!
A lot of seemingly minor things when you really think about it are awfully odd what we have normalized around children.
I know when I'm out it's hard not to notice just how freely people talk about children as if they're not there. Usually making a remark to the parent about being "well behaved" or not (which in that setting often just means "didn't annoy me")
Can you imagine if we did that with everyone? People come up to a friend you're with and just talk about how you look or act to your friend instead of you.
This isn't automatically a terrible thing like the creepiness of touching them, although it often is
@@QuestingRefuge This is a good point as well! It would be weird as hell if someone talked about me as if I wasn't there.
It's not "terrible" but it sure isn't great, kinda like microagressions? I don't know if the term applies here but a bunch of "small things" can very quickly turn into a big issue
I know what you mean. When I gave birth to my first daughter I was often so angry. Every elderly stranger touched my child. My daughter hates it to be touched, because of her Asperger autism.
I remember an old woman on the bus station who was angry, because I said to her "Please don't touch my child." She spoke maybe two minutes with my daughter and touched her head without asking her first and that while she was visibly unhappy with it. On that day I teached her how to say really clear no.
That and many other things drove me crazy when I was a child myself. When an adult says what he hates and wants it's critique and their right, but If a kid does it it's a "tantrum" or the kid is "just tired" and will be often ignored.
Adults think often that kids don't understand many things, but that isn't the case. I learned with my own two kids, that the most kids understand so much more than many adults know and they have their own valid opinions too and can be very understanding, but sometimes they need a good explanation first.
This just reminds me of A Series of Unfortunate Events, where all the "adults" don't believe the "children" who tell them "that's Count Olaf"
I'll have to check that out!
This video reminded me of something my mom use to say in regards to children and their opinions. Cause in her own words "Dont call them a child,they're a little person." Cause thats what children were to her,small people with big opinions that deserved to be heard. And i just wish more people like her,you,and niel existed in the world if not for us,then for all the little people.
I love that! Your mom sounds awesome.
I was a camp councillor for kids 7-8 and I was hands down their favourite, they adored me and would always come to me for everything. All the other councillors asked me what I did that made them love me so much, I always said I had no idea. It’s only now looking back that I realize what I did different. I treated them like normal people, like how I treated any other adult. I wouldn’t treat them like a “child”, I wouldn’t talk down to them, and I would always treat them with respect. That’s why they favoured me and respected me. People tend to think kids are dumb but they’re not, they’re actually quite intelligent and understanding, and they are deserving of our respect.
What a great story! It really should be that simple. Thank you so much for sharing this!
i have only one memory of how it felt to be a child. i remember thinking more than once "i'm not an idiot, please stop acting like i am" and i felt condescended to
This is a criminally underviewed video, on a criminally underdiscussed topic. I've noticed for a long time that the way children are generally treated, at least in the context of the culture I grew up in, is riddled with abuses. It always gave me an uneasy feeling how the problems I find so obvious with the way we raise children go largely overlooked and ignored. Everyone goes through the developmental stage that is childhood, so everyone really should have vested interest in ensuring that children are treated well.
This is the first time I've seen the issue framed as a civil rights issue, and I think that's a really helpful way to think about it. I'm not sure what a children's civil rights movement would look like, but I hope to see one form within my lifetime. This was a great video.
Thank you so much! This is issue is really important to me.
Unfortunately, I think too many just don't think about it once they're past that development stage themselves.
Yes! I've been feeling like children are some of the most oppressed people for a long time and I've never heard anyone articulate this idea until now. Thank you!
Glad it resonated with you too!
When I was a child, I didn’t understand why I had such a strong connection to this movie. You’ve done a fantastic job at breaking down the themes that I felt attached to as a child. Great video!
Thank you so much!
This video really hit home for me because I have a friend who was being abused by his parents and he called CPS, but they put him on house arrest, because somehow forcing a kid to be inside the house with their abusers at all hours of the day except for school is a fantastic idea. He is 16. I want to intervene somehow because my friend has so much evidence against his parents but he has already tried and failed to bring it to court on his own and I know if I can’t intervene then it will just end up worse and worse.
We have pictures of him with bruises and cuts and a torn shirt because his stepmom didn’t want him to leave the house. What’s even worse is he’s already been through a hellish divorce because his biological mom was also abusive.
Anyone have any advice for what I can do? He lives out of my state so it’s even harder to impact the issue. Please help me help him.
I'm so sorry your friend is going through that! I had something similar going on at one point.
Do you think they're able to consult with a lawyer? I'm assuming this way they could have an idea if there's any legal options for them to get away.
I hope your friend is able to find somewhere safe. No one deserves to go through that.
A lawyer and/or an adult that could be trusted is probably best bet unfortunately. A teacher or guidance counselor or friend's parents etc who would be willing to help in some way. I'm sorry I don't have better advice I can give.
I hope everything's ok for him, i doubt it though.
The law somehow benefits the agressors more than the victim..
Sorry for the long comment, and tw for child abuse
What you said about "what if a child started life with someone like the other mother? ... they may not even have a sense of if they ARE being abused" really hit home for me. *I* was the child that grew up with a mom like the other mother. She was extremely neglectful, as well as emotionally, psychologically, and physically abusive. We didnt know anything was wrong. We thought it was *good* there, that we were *lucky* to have her as our mom.
My world *was* just that house we lived in, just the house, and the yard, her, my siblings, and nothing else. She never took us to the doctor, and she pulled me out of school before I even reached first grade. She would leave us home alone often. We didnt have access to the internet, or even *cable* past the ages of around 6 or 7, and around that time our heat and water were cut off as well. We only knew anything that she told us, and had no way of ever checking if it was wrong or right, no out. She told us to be distrustful of strangers, of doctors and police and teachers and anybody that wasnt her. She made us afraid of anything that wasn't her, any part of actual society. She was our entire world.
What was happening in that house was reported *so. many. times* to DSS and CPS. they never did anything. the only reason we got out was because one of our aunts finally decided to step in and get us set up with living with our biological father (who lived in another state), after a nasty court battle and a period of time of us being in foster care, and that was when me and my sister were *ten*. Things are better now, but I dread to think of what would have happened to us had our aunt and father not decided to finally intervene. I dread to think what would happen to the other children who grow up like i did, but do not have somebody there to try to intervene for them. It scares me to think about.
I'm so glad your Aunt and Father got you and your siblings out of there. Thank you for sharing your story
I wonder how much biological determinism plays into the treatment of children. How many times has a child been denied access to resources because an adult said their brain wasn't developed enough yet? As if they had MRIs for that specific kid. We deride it elsewhere in anthropology, but with kids I guess it's fine to treat them all as the idealized child that is guaranteed to have certain developments and associated experiences at certain times.
I think quite a bit! There is a long history of medicalizing things in similar ways too. Society decides what they think is "ideal" or "worthy" then comes up with justifications to uphold that
CW - CHILD ABUSE, DON'T READ IF YOU'RE SENSITIVE TO THAT TOPIC. STAY SAFE EVERYONE
boy what a video. i love this movie lol i actually used to joke about how my stepmom was my "other mother"
funny how that worked out huh :o)
i was abused for at least 8 years and bullied incessantly for 6. i was gaslit, threatened, yelled at--i was even guilted _out_ of suicidal thoughts at least once every year after being hospitalized for them by my stepmom and my dad. it doesn't help that my autism was seemingly dismissed by my stepmom in so many situations that even _i_ was convinced that i must just be faking it for an excuse. and yet no adult i told ever believed me when i said i was being abused
i am completely aware of what i went through and how wrong it was, especially when i cross-referenced it with how families in the books i read or shows i watched and my friends with stable homes were treated. the fact that most adults think that kids are less than people, just objects, or sometimes even as nothing but glue for a broken relationship (we are not! if you have a kid only to try and rekindle the spark of a failing marriage *you need to see a professional* instead of putting a young mind through that hell for who knows how long) absolutely baffles me. we are still people, we are still aware, abuse will make things worse. being abused as a child can not only lead to the big things such as depression or anxiety but also things like DID and OSDD. i got out of that home situation almost 2 years ago now but i still live with the mental scars and the fear of those two adults
i'm no child abuse martyr or anything, i know so many people that had and still have it worse, but i want to still share my thoughts
in summary abuse is bad and kids deserve respect thanks for reading 👍
sorry for the whole vent but i wanted to talk about this
So sorry you what you went through growing up and am glad you were able to get out of that! Thank you for sharing your experience
Now that's a very good video. I come from child poverty (and other issues). I absolutely love Coraline. And I really appreciated your essay.
I wish children would be taken more seriously.
I’m 15 and this just reminds me how my mom tells me ABA doesn’t hurt me. She yells at me aswell. I don’t even need aba. It causes me trauma.
I'm sorry you're having to go through that 🙁 ABA is truly awful
BEAUTIFULLY put. "these issues are framed as parents' rights. i think they should be more focussed on childrens' rights."
TW for religious trauma, CA, and SA!!!!
I’m a thirteen-year-old disabled (autistic) boy, and thanks a lot for this video, honestly. I’m not exaggerating when I say (text?) that I cried watching this. I spent a good 20 minutes crying during and then after the video. By the way, amazing video! I love Coraline and Neil Gaiman.
Maybe I’m just being a sensitive hormonal teenager, but I guess my mum is sort of an abusive figure. At least, sometimes, and it always leaves me confused. She’s always raised me and my little siblings to be *completely* dependent on her. Hell, I caught her SMILING and ENCOURAGING when my little brother had a full on breakdown in tears because she left him to go outside for a few hours. It’s like she wants us to have an attachment disorder. To her, we’re *just kids* we can’t do anything, not until we leave her house. As long as we live under her roof (funnily enough, my arsehole father-whom she has conflict with-is the one paying the rent… and often threatens to revoke us if his money for our needs) we can’t do anything.
What makes it difficult for me to label her as abusive is that my brain tends to erase a lot of memories of my childhood (here’s hoping I don’t have a disassociative disorder…) so it’s difficult for me to keep track of the stuff she’s done. For example, My sister said she locked us out on a balcony once during a rainy dark night when we were about 6 and 8, and I don’t remember that at all. I used to have journals, but she made me throw them away, and my ex-friends who knew of the things she’s done I have cut contact with (Why do I have to have fear of abandonment and social anxiety?!) so I can’t really look to those for evidence… My sister does reassure me that she often gaslights and guilt trips in our arguments, though. And recently, my mum tried to gaslight me about asking how I was doing when she found out I self harmed, when in fact she did not because I journaled that whole experience in my phone immediately after. Why? Because I was hurt. Maybe I’m just being petty and hormonal. She audibly scoffed on the call discussing my self harm, and I could hear the disgust in her voice which dhe claimed later was concern. It could be my autistic brain misinterpretreting it, but it sounded so much like how she sounded when disgusted and disapproving, I don’t know why. I do still remember her burning my shoulder by throwing freshly boiled water at me. She said child abuse is good and is just discipline, so I think that’s kind of a red flag… but she’s better than other mums, I guess.
On the other hand, my father was mostly absent my whole life for what I remember.
At least up until I turned 12. When I was 12, everything went absolutely downhill with my parents and I. What made it worse was that I finally found a good school for me with teachers I really loved and liked to talk to! But nope, nuh-uh…
My own father harassed me, touched me in placed he shouldn’t have, and stalked me. I was treated like I was supposed to be the glue to their stupid marriage because I’m their eldest kid! Fix your own grownup issues, I’m 13, I can’t even make polynomials.
(Why did my stupid father even have to convince my mum to give him two kids for his dying grandmum? Then my mum got pressured into marrying him because my first sister and I were illegitimate, then after that because “the man gets to do whatever he wants in the family” he basically R-ed my mum and got her pregnant two more times.)
I’m scared of my father to the point once, I woke up with a vivid dream/memory of him R-ing me, and I’m still not sure if it was real or not. It still haunts me, and my mum didn’t give a single damn. She complains that I never tell her any of my problems, but there’s clearly a reason for that… Also, my mum is a Christian and raised us all to be Christians. I am exploring my own spirituality, but I definitely am not a Christian. The amount of arguments we’ve had over this is crazy. She probably does have trauma of her own, and that’s definitely made her heavily reliant on her children and religion for emotional support…
I’m only 13. I don’t want to deal with these kinds of things. I should be dealing with mundane teenager problems like friends (which I currently have none of…) and hormones, or whatever it is normal teenagers are supposed to struggle with in this point of their life! Not SA, self-harm and all of this stuff… It hurts missing your childhood when I still am one [a child]. There’s nothing that wrong with my life anyway, so why do I feel like so much is missing from it? Most of when I was 7-9 was okay, I think…? But I can barely remember anything from before I was 11-12 so how am I supposed to know?!
This comment is kind of pointless, and mostly a vent. Though, I feel like my experience could be important here since this video is about child abuse, and I am technically a young child. It’s so hard to feel confident in my own opinion because “I’m just a kid, what do I know?” but at the same time, I feel so obligated to be responsible and have to know everything at every given time… (Thanks for that, mum.)
(Sorry for any English mistakes, I’m sick and a bit dizzy!)
this is one of my new favorite videos on the internet. coraline has been my favorite movie for years; my primary focus in this life is liberation. this is excellent on every level. thank you for making and sharing this, truly.
Wow, thank you for such a wonderful comment! I'm glad it meant so much to you
Okay but that point about how abuse can warp someone's perspective enough so that they may not realize hits hard- I know a 20 year old who was raised in a very conservative household and still isn't allowed to watch cartoons like Avatar the last airbender or foster's home for imaginary friends. He's going to college and has a job, yet cannot bring himself to question how his parents raised him (Believing any media from after the 70s is gross political propaganda)
Hopefully over time he explores these things himself and questions that some. Always heartbreaking to see someone internalize that level of control.
Hey there, found this while looking for more vids giving a look through Henry Selick's stuff for Wendell and Wild, but super glad how you brought in how Neil Gaiman's style has always dovetailed into these topics and systemic issues as a whole.
Selick himself as a director was definitely a great fit for Coraline, guy loves stories that are essentially recontextualizations of trauma, abuse, and systemic issues in general. He seems to be in conversation with Gaiman and the modern approach to parenting of today.
One thing I'm a bit astonished about Selick's direction, and Gaiman too considering how the two clearly know how deep these issues go, is how they approach "Why do parents even have children?" which is such an uncomfy topic for people to talk about understandably, but is something that does need to be considered: Why have children if you're going to neglect them, or even worse, shape them to be something they were never gonna faithfully portray in the first place?
These are questions that very few animated films and media in general for younger folk get asked. A notable exception I've come to notice are Ghibli films. Ghibli films often talk about how the role of children in the family structure has shifted in various ways, some not all that positive: Princess Kaguya and Spirited Away come immediately to mind regarding this.
We don't rely on each other, parent and child, like we did in the past where an agrarian home life was common for most people throughout the planet. In such a family structure, parents and children worked side-by-side and had a material reason for working together: they had to eat. Now, we essentially separate the parents from children via work that the children cannot participate nor influence in for a sizable portion of the week. Which begs the question, why have a kid if they're not gonna be able to help out around materially?
The answer is often more emotional. Our families, our communities, are usually what allow us to "refresh" ourselves from the grind of work when we come back home. This of course has a huge amount of issues in itself (ie. reproductive labor) but it also starts to become apparent that if the greatest comfort from family is the emotional strength and haven it provides for us, then that is a fundamental issue to concern yourself with when the family structure is showing neglect, if not an outright refusal to meet basic needs.
Coraline makes direct parallels to parenting with raising a garden, with her pointing out a lapse in reasoning: Why write and base yourself around gardening (parenting) if you hate dirt, the messier but necessary part of raising something? Whether that be dirt or simply giving the emotional care for your strung-along kid. This analogy is taken even further with how the garden the Other Mother makes is both textually and metatextually constructed to be an image of Coraline that is larger than life: it's not a true representation of who she is even if it's meticulous.
Kudos for pointing out the subtext and the real-world commentary that these stories have, it was appreciated to see someone, a parent no less, approach this story in such a way.
Thank you for such a wonderful comment! I'm really looking forward to Wendell and Wild but haven't gotten to it yet.
I really love what you've brought up here like the parallels with the garden. They know something they want for themselves, but the outside pressures related to trying to survive with making money overrides what they want to make of their life.
I never understood why people wanted children, for me its :
1. You want them to have a better childhood than you.
2. To feel loved?
Why do people want children? Is it out of love? Why do most people don't think about it enough considering the child's childhood?
A lot of children stay in the system cause they're too old to be adopted, why do we prioritize apparence over feelings?
Some ppl have children bc they love their partner and want to create a child to share that love and bond with... children who are a blend of both worlds and and loved by their village. The heartbreak of having children is that you realize how little control you have in making choices for your child- from Healthcare to education, unless you are either wealthy or have a strong network of support to be able to relocate etc for better opportunities.
This is one of my favorite movies of all time and this video has given me even more to love about it!
Same!!
So glad to hear that thank you!
This is such a thoughtful and difficult video. Your channel is amazing, thank you for making stuff. ❤
Thank you! This is one I've wanted to get to for a long time
I liked your video
I was surprised at some of the coraline abuse theories. Ppl were a bit crazy to the animated parents who had just been in a car accident, relocated, and were trying to write for work-which is important bc they obviously needed money. The saddest theory I saw was that she was processing the death of her parents through delusions.
Hey so I'm late to the party but, well done in the video!
Question that bothers me concerning the autonomy of children: aren't there real limitations to what a child can and can't do? I'm a father of two and i constantly wrestle back and forth concerning "should i step in or let them choose? Are they will informed enough, or are they mature enough even if they were informed to make a safe decision?" I work with families and abuse and something that bothers me about these conversations is that pedophiles will often use this argumentation to say there's nothing wrong with... What people like that do.
Am i making sense? I feel like some of the oppression is very much the outcome of parents and adults not treating children with the respect they would give an adult. But u also feel uneasy with the prospect that children can be trusted with what we can trust adults with. I know several other comments mentioned that children's brains aren't that different in development from adults but like. They are tho? I agree it's more of a spectrum. Nothing magic happens at 18 or whatever number. I agree there. I agree we should include kids more in responsibilities, but the wording bothers me. Aren't children different from adults? Are we suggesting they aren't? I know Galman thought there was no difference, but do you agree? And to what extent? I'm not here to crucify anyone just puzzled and hoping to get some insight. Thanks!
You're right it's very complicated! There are many things to consider which I definitely plan to try to explain more in the future, but the gist for me is I think the differences in ability and limitations should absolutely be kept in mind, but I think this is true for all individuals. For example, an adult may have a cognitive disability.
And I absolutely do think that some things need to be in place to protect children from possible abusers - like acknowledging that power dynamics like age cannot be ignored in talking about consent. Part of this is the nature of dealing with the awful systems we have in place now and working with what tools we have - while also trying to think of what more ideal systems could be.
So I'd argue for seeking to empower always as much as possible. In cases where it truly is not safe for an individual to decide on their own, making sure that there are checks in place involving a community or more individuals would be more ideal (basically so power is not consolidated into 1 or 2 people which is easier to abuse).
@@QuestingRefuge right on, thanks for your thoughtful reply. And great point on adults with mental disabilities!
Children from a sort of neglevted household seem more mature than those who aren't. I agree that some definetly don't seem to be able to do that, but is it something they can learn? To be goofy and still be mature? Are we just assuming the goofy ones aren't mature inside
So proud of the work you're doing ❤️ I love this video!
Thanks for helping on it! 💜
the part about the children of being a minority reminds me of a book I have be meaning to read called "Trust Kids! Stories on Youth Autonomy and Confronting Adult Supremacy" by carla bergman (Editor); Matt Hern (Foreword) . you might want to look into that book.
Thank you! I've heard of it but had not checked it out. Will be moving it up the reading list!
@@QuestingRefuge your welcome.
Absolutely excellent. I got into reading Childhood Studies through my enjoyment of children's books (Alice in Wonderland and Coraline mainly) which led me to essays on children as a political group that spoke to some of my disatisfactions with the way people discussed growing up and development. It was really cool to see these reflected back here in ways I probably wouldn't have been radical enough to put together.
It sort of upsets me that even leftists I know will deal with issues like children's us of online spaces or involvement in politics with the same retreat to images of innocent underdeveloped kids who will be people at some point in the future. Like, obviously not everyone can know about every vector of oppression but the fact responses tend to be 'children shouldn't be online' is infuriating to me. Or features will be presented as bad because they're happening to children as if children were a passive and vulnerable population rather than a group that lacks access to resources which let adults cope.
Sorry, didn't mean to turn into a rant. This essay was brilliant. Greatly, greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your comment! I agree I think leftists tend to look a lot of things connected to ableism which I think hugely intersects with child liberation.
Nvr seen the movie. The book is actually the most terrifying book I've ever had the pleasure to read.
The other mother litterally grooms Coraline😱😱😱😱
I have a degree of autobiographical memory, and can remember not only what happened during my childhood, but exactly how my mind worked. And I agree that better protection is needed, it should not come in the form of freedom for children to make their own decisions. They are not capable of that
This video is very interesting and really underrated.
Keep up the good work!!
Thank you very much!
bro im crying right now this is so true 😪
I’m a month late and I deeply apologize for it, but I feel the need to ask this and I also apologize if anyone who reads this takes offense.
Does ignorance of any sort of stigma count as a form of abuse? I was homeschooled as a child while my brother went to school (we both have autism), my parents was inspired by a magazine my father worked for and his own delusional parental fantasies of which was manifested out of inspiration to homeschool me and I got what felt like hell from the other kids in my neighborhood, they were sent to public school, this wasn’t something in my parents ever had to go through when they were my then age and I’m still displeased about it to this very day.
Thank you for watching regardless of how long it takes you get to any video!
I'm really sorry you experienced bullying like that growing up. This can be a challenge with some of the harmful things that can be in schools but that doesn't mean staying out of the school system you won't experience it.
I can't speak for your experience not knowing the details and even if I did I think it's something you have to decide. Even if your parents "did nothing wrong" I would hope they could listen to the harm you endured though and be supportive and even apologetic.
I think ignorance doesn't matter when it comes to the child's experience. It doesn't make anything less real for them.
Really touched me. Good job.
dang, you got the Scary Interesting background music going on!
This is a beautiful video ❤
fuckin nailed it!
Thanks to the help of Neil Fryman!
Wow! I'm in this video!
Thank you for being in it!
@@QuestingRefuge As an actual response to the ideas, i think change would need to work backwards from the order of ideas presented. You bring up the nature of competencies to determine when we allow children to participate in licenses (a word for something shy of a human right, but necessary for social participation).
Jurisprudence time: typically the state makes a license when the person engaging in the activity is likely to harm without competency (ex: cars and guns). A criminal statute for children works in reverse, punishing adult persons who use their competency to abuse someone who lacks it.
What we currently have: age of consent followed by age of full adulthood. What we could have: a license to have intercourse, tested and permited by the state. ... I would say the criminal statute approach has less problematic implications.
I agree that society doesn't protect abuse victims well at all, child or adult. But age is inherently intertwined with development. So as we pass new laws, they would have to be age-based. And other, new laws could focus on empowering whistleblowers and child protective services, balanced against racial-political-bigoted abuses of an empowered system.
And I say this as a person who's family's entire profession was teaching, and I spent many years as a paraprofessional working with children ages 3-10 in special needs approved classrooms. I say that, because understanding the experiences and unique languages of children was a big part of that job
@@SocraTetrisage is tied to development however it varies wildly from person to person. So I think my issue is when age is the only basis (although I definitely wasn't thinking along lines of intercourse that's a way more complicated area). And right now this works negatively in the other direction as well. Turning too old can cut you off from supports you still need.
I definitely wasn't trying to make specific prescriptions though and more in general I believe kids should have more agency. That it could improve education and many other things.
I would love to chat about more some time and maybe it would be fun to try to dive deeper on a specific area rather than staying only generalized like I did here.
I just think looking at child oppression is a unique angle because it is a fairly universal experience on some level. So it could be useful to look at when you think of naming change.
@@QuestingRefuge Definitely a very complex issue, and framing it in oppression helps reassert that there is a difference between the necessities of parenthood and how people tend to start thinking kids are just an extension of parents (rather than whole people in their own rights). I i very much liked the video!
This seems like a creepy thing a predator would say to justify themselves and their actions toward children. As someone who was a child from an abusive family in oppressed non-age-related groups, it's creepy... children should be allowed to be kids for as long as possible. It's not oppression to not have them take on the entire world and all the stress and pain that come with it, as a kid. Being a kid is a phase of life, not a permanent label.
I'm confused because I never said they should take on the world? If anything my argument would be they should be supported more so they can be kids. It would be bad to isolate them from the world and it would be bad to not give them support. Conservatives actually use the argument of "just let them be kids" to try to keep kids from learning about lots of things.
As for the label - yes it's connected to age. Disability is also not always permanent, yet is an important intersection to consider. I would say age falls in line with that. There's also ageism for people as they get older as well.
The only thing I disagree with is letting children vote because children can't fully comprehend what goes on in politics. I know for sure me & my sisters couldn't understand it when we were young. Not only that, but children in general just don't care about politics. They'd rather have fun. But I wouldn't mind lowering the voting age by a few years and I agree with your point in letting them have a say on political stuff when it comes to their rights & all that.
She is so me
I LOVE having more conversations about treating children with more respect. I've been spending a lot of time thinking about how I will behave differently as a parent in order to instill a sense of personal worth that isn't age- or experience-dependent. I was definitely raised in a "because I told you to" household and it's wacky to me that this is still a valid style of parenting. I don't feel like I became a different person sometime before/during adulthood... I just feel like some people started treating me with more respect that I wish I'd always gotten. I wonder how many people have trouble empathizing with their younger selves or personally believe that respect is something they've earned over time - it does track with "respect your elders!"
Anyway, good video! :)
Thank you!
Even though we went in determined to treat our children better, it really did take reflecting and empathizing with our younger selves to go much further. It's been huge seeing the difference in how happy and comfortable they are.
It's amazing how difficult the world can make it to treat them with more respect too because there are people who will actually get uncomfortable and angry just witnessing it.
you literally suggested children should be able to vote? seriously? anyone thats around kids, like, ever, knows that they don't know almost anything about the world including politics. also, if children could choose when to go to sleep, they would choose never, which is pretty obvious to basically everyone. what happened to the idea that adults know better? which is true. dont get me wrong, children's opinions should be considered, but a child shouldn't have the final say over their life, their parents should. and if children cant support themselves financially, they shouldnt get an emancipation, because they would suffer in poverty. living apart from their parents also makes sense, because it wouldnt be much different if they did live with their parents. i mean, the whole point is to stay far away from them
Would it be much worse than letting conservatives vote?
@@psychicbyinternet if you think kids can comprehend the complicated intricacies of politics, economics, policies, laws, etc. youre stupid