I have been covering the Atari ST / Amiga era as a computer journalist in West Germany in the 80s and 90s. In my reporting I have met and interviewed the Tramiels, Shiraz Shivji and other important industry figures. This brillant documentary finally connects many dots that I have been unaware of even after all those years. Great research, storytelling and production! Thanks, Kim!!
Despite knowing his name and being aware of his dodgy business practices, there was so much I didn't know about Jack Tramiel. This was fascinating. I walk away feeling educated, and with a newfound respect for the man. Fantastic work as usual, Kim.
Dodgy business practices. Yeah, he was no saint, and he really stepped over the line with some suppliers, but here was a man that wanted to sell you a $299 computer when Apple was charging 3 to 4 times as much. And the world gave Jobs a pass because, oh oh oh, Apple wanted to change the world! Bullshit. I'd take 1000 Jack Tramiels over one Jobs and Gates. So, forgive me for not crying in my soup over how he stuck it to other *businesses* .
kim your documentary series needs to be in a library in the gaming section, I find myself coming back to the same video because they are very long, not to worry though I love watching them
I remember back when I was a young teen, and I got my C64, I was looked at like I was a mega-mind alien simply because I owned a computer. The rest of my family hated the thing and resented the fact that I even spent time using it, thinking that my time would have been better spent doing other things that were actually productive. None of them understood that I WAS being productive. Just not in the same way that they were used to seeing people being productive. I got bullied and made fun of because I was really into computers. And god. Finding any information about actually USING that C64 was completely non-existent. Once in a while, you would find one of those C64 type in books. But that was it. The libraries didn't have anything. The book stores didn't have anything. I remember learning BASIC, and then finding out that most games were written in Assembly language. And on top of that, the C64 manual said that I needed a program called C64Mon in order to write Assembly code. I remember looking all over creation for C64mon and to this day, I've never found it. I went to every store that sold computer software in my area looking for something to allow me to write Assembly code. The store people would just look at me like I had two heads and would just assume that I was talking about "BASIC", and they would point me to those "BASIC tutorial" programs and such. There was literally NO help if you wanted to learn anything more than BASIC where I lived. They had a small selection of games, and maybe a type in book, or "BASIC tutorial" program here or there, and that was it. No one had any knowledge beyond that. It's no wonder that it was so damn hard for people to get into computers back then. No one sold anything that helped people with them. The information and help just wasn't widely available.
I had a similar experience as you at the time. It was a difficult time being a home computer fan in North America around 1986/87. The retailers didn't "care" about computers and were dumping them off in bargain bins with zero support and you really had to dig into bargain bins to find software. You could feel the the market was kind of "dying" and that North America had kind of given up on the whole "home computer" market leaving Nintendo to swoop in and kind of take over anything games related when the NES was introduced. Had either Atari or Commodore held up better, there would have been much better price competition for games in the late 80s instead of the super expensive NES games we had to mostly deal with. In retrospect, as i've watched docs like this one and done more reading, I've realized how screwed over we were in North America compared to the UK. The UK had a much healthier/competitive market with Sinclair, Atari, Commodore all going at it. They had much cheaper games with more variety.
@@TransCanadaPhil This was the case for me in maybe the early 80's. In my area, there was little or no interest in computers and computer stuff. It kills me now how I see documentaries about the histories of these machines, and I see how the UK and Europe really embraced home computers for home use and games. While here in the US, that embrace never really happened until maybe the late 90's/2000's. There was a serious barrier to getting into computers here to the general public. The interest wasn't there. It took work and effort to learn these things, and there was no instant gratification. So, here in the US, these computers just... didn't take off as anything more than a niche thing or an expensive toy that only a few hobbyists were into. There were so many barriers to learning stuff. Like I said, with Assembly, no one carried anything about it, or carried the software that let you code it here. And that's just ONE thing. I remember getting a modem for my C64 all thinking that I was going to be able to get on all the BBS's and get all kinds of cool software, and meet all kinds of fellow computer fanatics. Only to find that there wasn't ANY BBS's AT ALL local to me, and as a kid, with a phone in his room that had long distance dialing blocked because parents only paid for local, that modem was a worthless brick to me. And like I said, this was back in the early to mid days when the C64 was at peak popularity. If you look at documentaries about these machines, you would think that they were common in every house and super popular. But no. They were really rare, niche, hobbyist, machines that hardly anyone had in their home.
And I thought I had it bad as a kid in the late 90's with no one to teach me. At least I had the internet, lol. You guys sure had a rough time back then. Thanks for sharing your story.
My experience was more positive. I lived in a high-tech area and there were plenty of books and magazines available in stores. It also helped that my dad understood computers and knew what to look for.
Can you imagine working for Jack Tramiel? A terrifying thought, I don't even wanna think about it. That said, I'm thankful to everyone who had a hand in making the C64, my first computer, but I'm also thankful I never have to work for anyone like him.
Thank you for the excellent content Kim. Your documentaries on Jack Tramiel, Clive Sinclair, and Peter Molyneux are excellent analysis of the complicated titans of the computing industry.
One of our high school teachers owned a Commodore dealership, and I was able to get a job there in my teens. I remember when the first 64 came in as a display unit with the text graphic XMAS demo, it was quite amazing to behold. I got into programming a little, at some point I figured out how to use interrupts to change graphics modes or something, but something was still off and I was stuck. I guess the number was published in a magazine, or perhaps I called information in Canada, but I reached Jim Butterfield at his home and we had a nice conversation on the topic. He was very gracious and gave me some useful tips. Phone bill probably upset my mom though.
Back in the early 90s I bashed out my degree thesis (Industrial Maintenance Philosophy) using the word processor on an Atari ST saving it to a floppy. Images were manually, as in paper and scissors cut and pasted in, before it was all photo copied. It was rough compared MS Word to but it worked.
Hi Kim. I have some info. I remember reading about what happened with the Lorraine (the project name of the Amiga). I remember Jack came along knowing that if Amiga was going to default on their loan and he was going get the computer free. So, when they offered to seek to Jack, he was legally able to make counter offers at lower and lower prices. So, he offered them half what he did the last time, then half again. So. The Amiga people gave up. Then Commodore turned up and gave them.mote than they were asking of Jack the first time, or Jacks first offer. Very interesting story.
I've watched numerous CZcams videos about Commodore, Atari, and Jack Tremel and still got so much information and enjoyment out of this one. Thanks Kim! 🙏
Kim, you put SUCH effort into EVERY topic - the period-correct ads and print pieces, music - complete packages, chances to fill in the blanks for anyone seeking to know the people, the tech and the atmosphere of the times, your work goes above and beyond what one might expect. Top-shelf 👍👌
Excellent C Montgomery Burns pulls. This is a fantastic history, well done Kim! I remember not liking this guy back in 86, I had no idea about his background
It’s funny to think that Jack got his ass handed to him by the hippies that designed the Amiga. Despite commodore being run so terrible as a business the Amiga was such an amazing machine it succeeded. Jack did not appreciate what the fans of the c64 loved about it. If he’d understood his product and customers better he would have made sure the st was the spiritual successor to the c64. Jack was lucky to have the c64 fall into his lap the same as commodore were the Amiga. Great documentary Kim, you smashed it again
I disagree. Without Jack Tramiel, there wouldn't have been a company called Commodore Business Machines and no C64. Most of the engineers Jack employed were geniuses in their own right, but they lacked the business acumen to succeed in business. Jack on the other hand was a man who got things done and he had the business brain/strategy to market their work and put their work on a production line shipped out customers. Jack's vision was to build computers for the masses, not the classes, which revolutionised the computer industry. An engineer with a good business manager is a winning combination. Saying the C64 just fell onto Jack's lap is far from the truth. Jack played a big part during the rise of the microcomputers.
i dont think jack ever really understood the true appeal of the c64. This docu highlights that he was not really interested in the products. he was a ruthless business man that got lucky with the designers. his luck ran out with atari. you can only rely on pure business ruthlessness for so long. he was no musk or jobs. that is for sure.
I like to think he had his ass handed to him by the infrastructure he built up at C= between 1975-1984. Atari didn't have its own chip fab, or outright own complex I/O & timer chips like the CIA.
He didn't have enough time/money to make the ST a spiritual successor to the C64. When he took over, Atari's finances were in a terrible state and he needed to get a new, successful product out there ASAP if the company was to survive. No time to develop fancy graphics or sound chips like those in the Amiga, which had now been taken away from him and which took years to develop.
Amazing use of media, footage, pictures, magazines, ads, instructions, packaging, popular culture elements and all to showcase the historical and business context of the time.
Being a home computer fan in Canada in 1986/87 was such a disheartening experience. Everything was sitting in the bargain bins at the retailers gathering dust (old C64 software, TRS 80s) yet the retailers were not at all interested in stocking any of the new ST or Amiga hardware. It left the market wide open for Nintendo to dominate with nothing but expensive >$50 games for the north american market for the next decade.
Keep up the good work Kim and stay safe. Good to see this profile. JT was a super tough negotiator with a monetary vision. Always felt to me like he was dealt a really tough hand and played it better than almost anyone else that has ever lived. Don’t get me wrong, he was a bit of a massive dick too and took some bloodyminded decisions which inevitably led to the mess we all associate both commodore and Atari with in the 80/90s. Like I said, good to see this. Seems pretty accurate.
Jack Tramiel is a Polish man that survived the Holocaust. I've met 2 types of camp survivors, those that are openly loving and caring folks, and those that aren't. He's one that definitely isn't.
A miniseries with an inside look at the Tramiel family, Jack's rise, microcomputers, games, his three sons and all the business dealings/misdealings à la Succession.........I'd love that.
All of this was way before my time but it was an interesting look at a competitive market. I never knew much about the computer market in the US/UK so this was enlightening.
Odd thing. Back in my youth here in Finland I never really heard about any other computers than C64 (got mine 1983) and Amiga 500 (I think I got it somewhere around 1988 or so.. not sure). Of course in magazines there was something about Atari ST but I never knew anyone who had one. One person I knew had Macintosh or rather his father had and that was it. The PCs were really expensive and I think everyone in my sphere of life that had one at home were really expensive IBM ones that their parents had from work. Then came the 1990s and by 1993 almost everyone had switched to PCs.
Before i got my first computer, a Commodore PC 10, i actually did do my homework, after i got a computer i had no time as there were games to be played :D
my childhood was kinda weird, when it comes to this, i got a c64c as chrismas presents, while the amiga 500 was out, anyways when i started school and hit first grade, we had one computer and it was an ST, then after school was even more weird, they had spectrum and amiga we could play on lol, i still loved my c64c until it broke in 95. still remember the cathrigde game that was with it and it was terminator 2 . you could here, until around 94, buy c64 games in stores lol, they were more present than amiga games and later found out why, most of the amiga games, you had to mail order here, which has led today, that amiga games are rare, because of that, people would instead pirated the games, which is sad.
I knew a lot about Jack Tramiel, and I believe it was one of the most important figures in computer history. Perhaps not the best boss to work for, but to us as customers who buyed Commodore or Atari products we had decent CPU power, graphics and sound for a reasonable price. One question remains, what if Tramiel never left Commodore? Would they ever buyed Amiga? I doubt it, since Mr. Gould didn't like to spend a penny, but at the time he didn't have any choice. And I know that a lot of Atari fans like to believe that they ended up with the Lorraine technology, well that is partial true but Atari had a lot of financial troubles so producing a new computer with empty pockets is most unlikely. There is one thing in this video, which isn't exactly true. The Atari ST range didn't had a blitter chip, until 1989 (STE) and you could install a blitter chip in previous models. True the Amiga 50 could display more colours at screen while you're gaming, but it's not that they have to suffer because the lack of blitter chip (that is something from the sofwarehouses, who liked to make games that runs on every Atari). And after that the TT030 (compared to the Amiga 3000) or the Falcon030 (compared to the Amiga 1200) weren't that bad.
With or without Jack, Commodore simply lacked the in house knowledge to produce a 16/32 bit next generation computer. So, it's a given that Tramiel/Gould would have been shopping around at Mindset and Amiga. But with Tramiel in charge, Amiga probably wouldn't have bitten. He wanted the chipset, not the people. So, there wouldn't have been any benefit to taking Commodore's offer. Amiga would have died, giving Atari its technology ... a historical footnote like Mindset. Where does this leave Commodore? Buying Mindset? Maybe not, considering it historically fell through. I think the most interesting possibility is if Commodore went with the Apple IIGS route. Instead of trying to jump to a 68K architecture, they could try to stick with the more familiar 65xx architecture. The 65C816 was competitive with the 68000, and in fact Apple ridiculously halved the IIGS CPU speed so it wouldn't outperform their 68K based Macintosh. With Tramiel in charge, the Commodore Plus/4 line might have been a little bit more focused on cost reduction, but it was doomed to fail. The Commodore 128 was created with C64 compatibility to react to this, but was otherwise a middling upgrade so it wouldn't compete with the Amiga. Okay, but if Commodore couldn't buy Amiga or Mindset? Maybe they would have been bolder with the idea that the C128 had to be a major upgrade competitive with the Mac and Atari Amiga and such. Instead of buying 68000, they'd buy 65816 and develop the rest in house. Instead of a 2MHz 8502, they'd have an 3.58 MHz or 7.16 MHz 65C816. Instead of an advanced graphics chipset, they do something quick and dirty like the Apple IIGS or Atari ST. But with a full speed 65C816, it's not limited to 16 colors like the IIGS or ST. Instead, it's got a full 256 colors with a chunky pixel mode right out of the bat. This means this C128 has games like Wing Commander, Wolfenstein 3D, and Doom years before PCs got VGA graphics. My point is - in this AU, Commodore has no interest in crippling the C128's performance. Commodore needs to go big in order to compete with the Mac and other next gen computers.
Wow...he owned CMOS?! They provided processors for so many devices it was insane. They were legendary for their time and their 6502 microprocessor was in everything. The next closest thing at the time period was the Zilog Z-80 but in terms of use it was a distant second.
The company was called MOS Technologies. Early on, they used the NMOS chip production process, and later adopted the CMOS chip production process, when they were renamed to Commodore Semiconductor Group (CSG)
Business is actually competitive commerce. War is the effort of violently defeating or dominating your enemies. So Tramiel applied the tactics of aggression into an emerging market and forced everyone else’s hands into the game of undercutting and overselling. Ruining the 8bit market, then ruining both the Commodore and Atari 16bit Computer’s by not understanding the value proposition to the consumer. 8bit computers are only good for learning to program which is a hobby and playing games. Amiga’s and ST’s are for creative productivity software and games. Both Amiga and ST. Inputted should have lasted longer I feel. Both companies were just mismanaged.
The final mention that both Amiga and Atari died is not really correct. There are still tons of machines functioning and admired today for the fond memories of exciting days when computers first entered homes of common people. There are also a plethora of computer scientists, programmers and engineers that were inspired by these fantastic and magical machines. Also, these computers similar to consoles of the day are still having newly developed games entering their libraries due to an indie development scene. I may not turn on my Amiga and ST computers daily, but they are still setup and appreciated.
I got kinda screwed on the c64 price wars, buying a vic20 because the c64 was too expensive then a few months late the c64 dropped dramatically in price. If I just had waited a few months I could have got the c64 for the same price as the vic. Still have all my old machines. The story of the Amiga atari and commodore is another interesting one
You're underplaying the success of the Apple II. When the Apple IIe came out in 1983, it was a great shot in the arm for Apple II sales. Also, you seem to be comparing unit sales, rather than profits. The Apple II series was more expensive and made tremendous profit for Apple, despite having lower unit sales.
The Apple ][ is not so familiar to Europeans. One of the reasons it never had much of an impact there was the way the video output worked. It was very much wedded to NTSC (USA, Japan).
@@IsaacKuo No worries, it never had much of an impact on U.S. culture either. Look at the sales numbers Will decries: high prices might make profits at low volume, but it does not buy influence. I kinda think the Apple II is more popular now than it was at the time.
@@bozimmerman You're wrong. The Apple ][ had a huge impact on U.S. culture. Regardless of sales numbers, the Apple ][ was a ubiquitous fixture in schools, making them the computer most students had exposure to. (The TRS-80 Model III also had a big presence in schools, but the Apple ][ outlasted them.) There's also the fact that the Apple ][ basically created the personal computer market via the first killer app - VisiCalc. Before that, home computers were only used by tinkering hobbyists. VisiCalc was the thing that put personal computers in businessperson offices. No longer would they have to submit all financial computing tasks to be done by a shared computer. They could get results quickly and interactively with a personal computer. This caught IBM flat-footed. Suddenly these toy-like home computers were an actual threat to their entire business model.
oh.,.......and now i know why my first comptuer was a ti/99....i mean..my parents basically bought it at the time they were giving them away, this video made me realise. See my dad was always quite the penny pincher (yes we could have afforded a c64). Being mostly interested in games, our ti/99 saw little use. I had two cousins who had a c64 and man did i wish i had one.
You had some bad luck, then. My dad got me a VIC-20 because it was the cheapest computer at the time. After that, the C64 was an affordable upgrade path that was compatible with the same tape drive and printer. Ironically, the poor TI/99 games library was due to it being bad for programming. The VIC-20 and C64 had seemingly pathetic BASIC capabilities, but the POKE, PEEK, and SYS commands gave aspiring programmers full access to machine code programming while the TI/99 was locked down for the average user. Furthermore, the VIC20 and C64 Programmers Reference Guides game comprehensive info for how to program machine code and the machine's hardware features. I think the TI/99 would have been a big success if it weren't for TI's attempt to lock down the software. Had they provided POKE, PEEK, SYS commands and programmers reference guides? Things could have been very different. Sure, the C64 would have still won the "war", but there would have been a ton more TI/99 software, including a lot of ports of software from the more popular and long-lived MSX computers (different CPU, but the same graphics chip). Why was the VIC20 and C64 so open, with official reference guides going so far as telling everyone how to make software for them? I'd guess it's from Tramiel's experience with the PET. Even though the PET wasn't the big winner in sales, it still was popular enough for a lot of user groups making software for the thing. From Tramiel's penny pinching perspective, he must have thought, "This is great! I don't have to spend money or effort on software development. Just shovel the computers out there and let others do most of the work at no cost to me!"
Great video but there's a slight inaccuracy at 22:44, the PET 2001-8 did not cost over £1000, it was £720. Still too much to be a home computer though.
How come? It wasn't all that long ago when a desktop PC cost around $1,500 including monitor. In 1977, the cost of a full assembled computer from IBM was around $10,000. So, in comparison, the $795 price tag was bargain basement. Heck, it was cheaper than the Apple II. Is that also not a home computer? The TRS-80 was around $600 with monitor.
I've been always curious on why the Atari ST and the Amstrad CPC line was so popular in France. Was it the price or better advertising than on Commodore products?
Nice video think those pieces of the G F in between cool most of the information I already knew. But there is an error in the deal with Microsoft (Bill) for the Basic that cost $ 50,000 not 10,000 is also confirmed in the documentary Business is War, Leonard Tramiel said that himself. Very good documentary, by the way, a recommendation for every Commodore fan.
The 80's seemed to be the time of cut throat Founders/CEOs, Tremiel, Gates, Jobs and others. One thing I didn't care for about the AtariST was the GEM UI and I picked up an Amiga. I wish Commodore hadn't screwed up the Amiga so bad.
They're still cut throat but they have (as Gates demonstrates quite well) learned to mask their sociopathy with charities and empty gestures of commercial wokeness.
The difference between Tramiel and Gates/Jobs is that youtube is the only place you'll see Tramiel, Peddle, or Commodore's role in the home computer revolution mentioned. Everywhere else, well, the victors wrote the history.
@Apple Pie & Cinnamon well yes they were, partly because the education administration equipped plenty of schools with them, so I guess that helped sales later on, parents wanted to buy at home the same computers that kids were already using at school. Myself I learned Logo programming on a T07. So yeah, the T07, the M05 (with the special edition Michel Platini, a famous football player back then !), were quite popular. But kids who played games knew that the C64, or Atari 8 bits, and of course later the Atari ST and Amiga were much better computers :)
Nothing to do with anything really, but I'm just curious: Christopher "Kit" Spencer... Is he (was? Is he still alive? Semi-retired in the Bahamas I last read), anyway, is he English or American? I'm only asking because "Kit" is a _very_ American nickname! XoP As I said, just curious... I know of only one exception of an Englishman going by the name Kit. And that was Kit Lambert - manager of The Who!
There's no evidence that the VIC-20 was inspired by the Sinclair ZX80, like the Commodore 116 was by the ZX81. From historical accounts, it's more likely the MSX machines were on Tramiel's mind when he made his famous call for a low cost computer, saying 'The Japanese are coming!'. This also explains why C= Japan played such a heavy role, and why it was released in Japan first. Was Sinclair Japanese? The best history of the VIC-20 was told by the Product Manager of the VIC in a book called "The Home Computer Wars" by Michael Tomczyk. A close second would be Brian Bagnall's "Commodore: A Company on the Edge". Funny thing though -- only time Tomczyk mentions Sinclair is to make fun of how the Timex branded computers were destroyed in the U.S. market by the C64, and Bagnall doesn't bring him up until the topic of the 264-series (including the C116) becomes relevant.
I have been covering the Atari ST / Amiga era as a computer journalist in West Germany in the 80s and 90s. In my reporting I have met and interviewed the Tramiels, Shiraz Shivji and other important industry figures. This brillant documentary finally connects many dots that I have been unaware of even after all those years. Great research, storytelling and production! Thanks, Kim!!
Do you have a link to what you did cover?
Do you have any of your reports online?
@@UNIRockLIVE I'm afraid not yet. Never thought this would be of any interest again in the future! 😄
Despite knowing his name and being aware of his dodgy business practices, there was so much I didn't know about Jack Tramiel. This was fascinating. I walk away feeling educated, and with a newfound respect for the man. Fantastic work as usual, Kim.
Dodgy business practices. Yeah, he was no saint, and he really stepped over the line with some suppliers, but here was a man that wanted to sell you a $299 computer when Apple was charging 3 to 4 times as much. And the world gave Jobs a pass because, oh oh oh, Apple wanted to change the world! Bullshit. I'd take 1000 Jack Tramiels over one Jobs and Gates. So, forgive me for not crying in my soup over how he stuck it to other *businesses* .
kim your documentary series needs to be in a library in the gaming section, I find myself coming back to the same video because they are very long, not to worry though I love watching them
I remember back when I was a young teen, and I got my C64, I was looked at like I was a mega-mind alien simply because I owned a computer. The rest of my family hated the thing and resented the fact that I even spent time using it, thinking that my time would have been better spent doing other things that were actually productive. None of them understood that I WAS being productive. Just not in the same way that they were used to seeing people being productive. I got bullied and made fun of because I was really into computers. And god. Finding any information about actually USING that C64 was completely non-existent. Once in a while, you would find one of those C64 type in books. But that was it. The libraries didn't have anything. The book stores didn't have anything. I remember learning BASIC, and then finding out that most games were written in Assembly language. And on top of that, the C64 manual said that I needed a program called C64Mon in order to write Assembly code. I remember looking all over creation for C64mon and to this day, I've never found it. I went to every store that sold computer software in my area looking for something to allow me to write Assembly code. The store people would just look at me like I had two heads and would just assume that I was talking about "BASIC", and they would point me to those "BASIC tutorial" programs and such. There was literally NO help if you wanted to learn anything more than BASIC where I lived. They had a small selection of games, and maybe a type in book, or "BASIC tutorial" program here or there, and that was it. No one had any knowledge beyond that. It's no wonder that it was so damn hard for people to get into computers back then. No one sold anything that helped people with them. The information and help just wasn't widely available.
I had a similar experience as you at the time. It was a difficult time being a home computer fan in North America around 1986/87. The retailers didn't "care" about computers and were dumping them off in bargain bins with zero support and you really had to dig into bargain bins to find software. You could feel the the market was kind of "dying" and that North America had kind of given up on the whole "home computer" market leaving Nintendo to swoop in and kind of take over anything games related when the NES was introduced. Had either Atari or Commodore held up better, there would have been much better price competition for games in the late 80s instead of the super expensive NES games we had to mostly deal with. In retrospect, as i've watched docs like this one and done more reading, I've realized how screwed over we were in North America compared to the UK. The UK had a much healthier/competitive market with Sinclair, Atari, Commodore all going at it. They had much cheaper games with more variety.
@@TransCanadaPhil This was the case for me in maybe the early 80's. In my area, there was little or no interest in computers and computer stuff. It kills me now how I see documentaries about the histories of these machines, and I see how the UK and Europe really embraced home computers for home use and games. While here in the US, that embrace never really happened until maybe the late 90's/2000's. There was a serious barrier to getting into computers here to the general public. The interest wasn't there. It took work and effort to learn these things, and there was no instant gratification. So, here in the US, these computers just... didn't take off as anything more than a niche thing or an expensive toy that only a few hobbyists were into. There were so many barriers to learning stuff. Like I said, with Assembly, no one carried anything about it, or carried the software that let you code it here. And that's just ONE thing. I remember getting a modem for my C64 all thinking that I was going to be able to get on all the BBS's and get all kinds of cool software, and meet all kinds of fellow computer fanatics. Only to find that there wasn't ANY BBS's AT ALL local to me, and as a kid, with a phone in his room that had long distance dialing blocked because parents only paid for local, that modem was a worthless brick to me. And like I said, this was back in the early to mid days when the C64 was at peak popularity. If you look at documentaries about these machines, you would think that they were common in every house and super popular. But no. They were really rare, niche, hobbyist, machines that hardly anyone had in their home.
And I thought I had it bad as a kid in the late 90's with no one to teach me. At least I had the internet, lol. You guys sure had a rough time back then. Thanks for sharing your story.
My experience was more positive. I lived in a high-tech area and there were plenty of books and magazines available in stores. It also helped that my dad understood computers and knew what to look for.
Can you imagine a world without Jack Tramiel?......A terrifying thought, I don't even wanna think about it.
Can you imagine working for Jack Tramiel? A terrifying thought, I don't even wanna think about it. That said, I'm thankful to everyone who had a hand in making the C64, my first computer, but I'm also thankful I never have to work for anyone like him.
Well, mant people would not agree with you!
As many people left Commodore and follow Jack Tramiel to his new company TTL, later renamed to Atari Corp.
When I did my work experience in '89 at my local tourist office , they still had a PET . It's the most gorgeous piece of equipment I've ever used .
Your channel is so brilliant and cozy I adore all your work
If we could just get someone else to read the scripts.
Cheers! I second that!
If you like this kinda stuff I just saw one about the history visicalc. by another boring topic. thats his ch name.
I love this current trend of Retro Gaming British CZcamsrs dropping these one or two hours retrospectives
Current trend for some, Kim's done it for years
Thank you for the excellent content Kim. Your documentaries on Jack Tramiel, Clive Sinclair, and Peter Molyneux are excellent analysis of the complicated titans of the computing industry.
My favorite of your documentaries. This is endlessly fascinating and very well-made. I've watched all three parts over and over.
Another fantastic upload, Kim. Jack Tramiel is fascinating.
So glad you collected this series into a single video!
One of our high school teachers owned a Commodore dealership, and I was able to get a job there in my teens. I remember when the first 64 came in as a display unit with the text graphic XMAS demo, it was quite amazing to behold. I got into programming a little, at some point I figured out how to use interrupts to change graphics modes or something, but something was still off and I was stuck. I guess the number was published in a magazine, or perhaps I called information in Canada, but I reached Jim Butterfield at his home and we had a nice conversation on the topic. He was very gracious and gave me some useful tips. Phone bill probably upset my mom though.
That's awesome, you went to the VHS C64 master himself!
The best documentary I have ever seen about Tramiel! Thank you very much! Brilliant!
Back in the early 90s I bashed out my degree thesis (Industrial Maintenance Philosophy) using the word processor on an Atari ST saving it to a floppy. Images were manually, as in paper and scissors cut and pasted in, before it was all photo copied. It was rough compared MS Word to but it worked.
Cool ..I had a ST ,great to hear people using it for such a think rather than just gaming
Absolutely love rewatching these as one long video... You freaking rock Kim!
I love that you play Kefka's Theme from Final Fantasy VI during Jack Tramiel's walk out. =P
Hi Kim. I have some info. I remember reading about what happened with the Lorraine (the project name of the Amiga). I remember Jack came along knowing that if Amiga was going to default on their loan and he was going get the computer free. So, when they offered to seek to Jack, he was legally able to make counter offers at lower and lower prices. So, he offered them half what he did the last time, then half again. So. The Amiga people gave up. Then Commodore turned up and gave them.mote than they were asking of Jack the first time, or Jacks first offer. Very interesting story.
Dang, Kim you're killing it on these deep dive looks into historical figures in the tech/game industry. Great watch :)
I've watched numerous CZcams videos about Commodore, Atari, and Jack Tremel and still got so much information and enjoyment out of this one. Thanks Kim! 🙏
I love these types of documentary videos going in detail into an age of computers and games that I never lived through.
Excellent work Kim thankyou so much an hour more passed completely enjoyably.. ☺
Kim, you put SUCH effort into EVERY topic - the period-correct ads and print pieces, music - complete packages, chances to fill in the blanks for anyone seeking to know the people, the tech and the atmosphere of the times, your work goes above and beyond what one might expect.
Top-shelf 👍👌
Excellent C Montgomery Burns pulls. This is a fantastic history, well done Kim! I remember not liking this guy back in 86, I had no idea about his background
Loved my Vic 20 back in the 1985, my first ever computer.
Great work Miss Justice,nice to re watch it in one part.
Another great job Kim.
Tramiel just looks mean.... Jabba the hut crossed with a pitbull lol
this is absolutely wonderful. Many thanks.
It’s funny to think that Jack got his ass handed to him by the hippies that designed the Amiga. Despite commodore being run so terrible as a business the Amiga was such an amazing machine it succeeded. Jack did not appreciate what the fans of the c64 loved about it. If he’d understood his product and customers better he would have made sure the st was the spiritual successor to the c64. Jack was lucky to have the c64 fall into his lap the same as commodore were the Amiga.
Great documentary Kim, you smashed it again
I disagree. Without Jack Tramiel, there wouldn't have been a company called Commodore Business Machines and no C64.
Most of the engineers Jack employed were geniuses in their own right, but they lacked the business acumen to succeed in business. Jack on the other hand was a man who got things done and he had the business brain/strategy to market their work and put their work on a production line shipped out customers. Jack's vision was to build computers for the masses, not the classes, which revolutionised the computer industry. An engineer with a good business manager is a winning combination. Saying the C64 just fell onto Jack's lap is far from the truth. Jack played a big part during the rise of the microcomputers.
i dont think jack ever really understood the true appeal of the c64. This docu highlights that he was not really interested in the products. he was a ruthless business man that got lucky with the designers. his luck ran out with atari. you can only rely on pure business ruthlessness for so long. he was no musk or jobs. that is for sure.
I like to think he had his ass handed to him by the infrastructure he built up at C= between 1975-1984. Atari didn't have its own chip fab, or outright own complex I/O & timer chips like the CIA.
He didn't have enough time/money to make the ST a spiritual successor to the C64. When he took over, Atari's finances were in a terrible state and he needed to get a new, successful product out there ASAP if the company was to survive. No time to develop fancy graphics or sound chips like those in the Amiga, which had now been taken away from him and which took years to develop.
Fantastic video Kim, well done.
Thanks for your videos Kim. Well researched and presented.
Great video Kim, love your content mate xx
Amazing use of media, footage, pictures, magazines, ads, instructions, packaging, popular culture elements and all to showcase the historical and business context of the time.
This was just brilliant on every level
Being a home computer fan in Canada in 1986/87 was such a disheartening experience. Everything was sitting in the bargain bins at the retailers gathering dust (old C64 software, TRS 80s) yet the retailers were not at all interested in stocking any of the new ST or Amiga hardware. It left the market wide open for Nintendo to dominate with nothing but expensive >$50 games for the north american market for the next decade.
For those of us who liked lots of software/games consoles were a false economy. Cheap console but expensive games never added up for me.
@@daishi5571 i agree. It's why I've shifted almost entirely back to the PC and Steam. I just got a new gaming laptop in the past few weeks :-)
Your content is gold.
I'm surprised Netflix hasn't reached out to you for a series.
I suppose technically Tramiel did beat Commodore in a way, as they went completely bust several months before Atari was merged off with JTS...
Outstanding video and insight!
Great documentary, very interesting, cheers!
Great telling, subscribed!
Amazing video!!!
Thanks for more content for me to fall asleep to. Great asmr
Keep up the good work Kim and stay safe.
Good to see this profile. JT was a super tough negotiator with a monetary vision. Always felt to me like he was dealt a really tough hand and played it better than almost anyone else that has ever lived. Don’t get me wrong, he was a bit of a massive dick too and took some bloodyminded decisions which inevitably led to the mess we all associate both commodore and Atari with in the 80/90s.
Like I said, good to see this. Seems pretty accurate.
Jack Tramiel is a Polish man that survived the Holocaust. I've met 2 types of camp survivors, those that are openly loving and caring folks, and those that aren't.
He's one that definitely isn't.
A miniseries with an inside look at the Tramiel family, Jack's rise, microcomputers, games, his three sons and all the business dealings/misdealings à la Succession.........I'd love that.
I'm a lonely old man who just sits around watching video game docs and only NOW does youtube recommend this guy??? do better youtube. (subscribed)
This video is better than Commodore Story documentary. Well done 👍
Jack Tramiel has been 70 years old since like 1972
8:58 AND the Commodore C16 (&+4) Which was the first one to have a built in assembler.
smashing vid, Kim.
Love this documentary, a fascinating look at one of the best businessmen in the industry. A sad loss to commodore.
Cheers! I second that!
If you like this kinda stuff I just saw one about the history visicalc. by another boring topic. thats his ch name.
All of this was way before my time but it was an interesting look at a competitive market. I never knew much about the computer market in the US/UK so this was enlightening.
This made for great late night viewing
Awesome video
What a masterpiece of a video, thanks for the history lesson man, very enjoyable 👍🏼
Odd thing. Back in my youth here in Finland I never really heard about any other computers than C64 (got mine 1983) and Amiga 500 (I think I got it somewhere around 1988 or so.. not sure). Of course in magazines there was something about Atari ST but I never knew anyone who had one. One person I knew had Macintosh or rather his father had and that was it. The PCs were really expensive and I think everyone in my sphere of life that had one at home were really expensive IBM ones that their parents had from work.
Then came the 1990s and by 1993 almost everyone had switched to PCs.
Damn you’re docs are awesome.
Loved my Atari ST. Only sold it to upgrade to the A1200
Before i got my first computer, a Commodore PC 10, i actually did do my homework, after i got a computer i had no time as there were games to be played :D
OF COURSE YOU NEED A HOME COMPUTER IN THE 1980S
TO PLAY GAMES
my childhood was kinda weird, when it comes to this, i got a c64c as chrismas presents, while the amiga 500 was out, anyways when i started school and hit first grade, we had one computer and it was an ST, then after school was even more weird, they had spectrum and amiga we could play on lol, i still loved my c64c until it broke in 95. still remember the cathrigde game that was with it and it was terminator 2 . you could here, until around 94, buy c64 games in stores lol, they were more present than amiga games and later found out why, most of the amiga games, you had to mail order here, which has led today, that amiga games are rare, because of that, people would instead pirated the games, which is sad.
Bill Cosby getting busted was brilliant
GEM was ported to the ST using Lisa computers. Pretty funny.
That would account for the bugs and the lack of multitasking lol.
I cannot help but love the man. 💕
I knew a lot about Jack Tramiel, and I believe it was one of the most important figures in computer history. Perhaps not the best boss to work for, but to us as customers who buyed Commodore or Atari products we had decent CPU power, graphics and sound for a reasonable price. One question remains, what if Tramiel never left Commodore? Would they ever buyed Amiga? I doubt it, since Mr. Gould didn't like to spend a penny, but at the time he didn't have any choice. And I know that a lot of Atari fans like to believe that they ended up with the Lorraine technology, well that is partial true but Atari had a lot of financial troubles so producing a new computer with empty pockets is most unlikely.
There is one thing in this video, which isn't exactly true. The Atari ST range didn't had a blitter chip, until 1989 (STE) and you could install a blitter chip in previous models. True the Amiga 50 could display more colours at screen while you're gaming, but it's not that they have to suffer because the lack of blitter chip (that is something from the sofwarehouses, who liked to make games that runs on every Atari). And after that the TT030 (compared to the Amiga 3000) or the Falcon030 (compared to the Amiga 1200) weren't that bad.
With or without Jack, Commodore simply lacked the in house knowledge to produce a 16/32 bit next generation computer. So, it's a given that Tramiel/Gould would have been shopping around at Mindset and Amiga. But with Tramiel in charge, Amiga probably wouldn't have bitten. He wanted the chipset, not the people. So, there wouldn't have been any benefit to taking Commodore's offer. Amiga would have died, giving Atari its technology ... a historical footnote like Mindset.
Where does this leave Commodore? Buying Mindset? Maybe not, considering it historically fell through.
I think the most interesting possibility is if Commodore went with the Apple IIGS route. Instead of trying to jump to a 68K architecture, they could try to stick with the more familiar 65xx architecture. The 65C816 was competitive with the 68000, and in fact Apple ridiculously halved the IIGS CPU speed so it wouldn't outperform their 68K based Macintosh.
With Tramiel in charge, the Commodore Plus/4 line might have been a little bit more focused on cost reduction, but it was doomed to fail. The Commodore 128 was created with C64 compatibility to react to this, but was otherwise a middling upgrade so it wouldn't compete with the Amiga.
Okay, but if Commodore couldn't buy Amiga or Mindset? Maybe they would have been bolder with the idea that the C128 had to be a major upgrade competitive with the Mac and Atari Amiga and such. Instead of buying 68000, they'd buy 65816 and develop the rest in house. Instead of a 2MHz 8502, they'd have an 3.58 MHz or 7.16 MHz 65C816. Instead of an advanced graphics chipset, they do something quick and dirty like the Apple IIGS or Atari ST.
But with a full speed 65C816, it's not limited to 16 colors like the IIGS or ST. Instead, it's got a full 256 colors with a chunky pixel mode right out of the bat. This means this C128 has games like Wing Commander, Wolfenstein 3D, and Doom years before PCs got VGA graphics.
My point is - in this AU, Commodore has no interest in crippling the C128's performance. Commodore needs to go big in order to compete with the Mac and other next gen computers.
Jack, what a guy!
Kim u smash these documentaries, gotta be the best on the net at it Well done 🤩
Thank you!!!!!
a true legend!
Wow...he owned CMOS?! They provided processors for so many devices it was insane. They were legendary for their time and their 6502 microprocessor was in everything. The next closest thing at the time period was the Zilog Z-80 but in terms of use it was a distant second.
The company was called MOS Technologies. Early on, they used the NMOS chip production process, and later adopted the CMOS chip production process, when they were renamed to Commodore Semiconductor Group (CSG)
Great watch.
Business is actually competitive commerce. War is the effort of violently defeating or dominating your enemies. So Tramiel applied the tactics of aggression into an emerging market and forced everyone else’s hands into the game of undercutting and overselling. Ruining the 8bit market, then ruining both the Commodore and Atari 16bit Computer’s by not understanding the value proposition to the consumer.
8bit computers are only good for learning to program which is a hobby and playing games. Amiga’s and ST’s are for creative productivity software and games. Both Amiga and ST. Inputted should have lasted longer I feel. Both companies were just mismanaged.
A sign of a great vid of this type, to me, is when watching for 90 minutes feels like 20 minutes. Good shite, my friend.
Great story brilliantly told
The final mention that both Amiga and Atari died is not really correct. There are still tons of machines functioning and admired today for the fond memories of exciting days when computers first entered homes of common people. There are also a plethora of computer scientists, programmers and engineers that were inspired by these fantastic and magical machines. Also, these computers similar to consoles of the day are still having newly developed games entering their libraries due to an indie development scene. I may not turn on my Amiga and ST computers daily, but they are still setup and appreciated.
I got kinda screwed on the c64 price wars, buying a vic20 because the c64 was too expensive then a few months late the c64 dropped dramatically in price. If I just had waited a few months I could have got the c64 for the same price as the vic. Still have all my old machines. The story of the Amiga atari and commodore is another interesting one
9:33 oh that magazine cover... priceless.
Tramiel, Sinclair, Sugar or Haynie? Put them in order of importance, will you Kim? Yes, one is an engineer, I know.
cracking!
You're underplaying the success of the Apple II. When the Apple IIe came out in 1983, it was a great shot in the arm for Apple II sales. Also, you seem to be comparing unit sales, rather than profits. The Apple II series was more expensive and made tremendous profit for Apple, despite having lower unit sales.
The Apple ][ is not so familiar to Europeans. One of the reasons it never had much of an impact there was the way the video output worked. It was very much wedded to NTSC (USA, Japan).
@@IsaacKuo No worries, it never had much of an impact on U.S. culture either. Look at the sales numbers Will decries: high prices might make profits at low volume, but it does not buy influence. I kinda think the Apple II is more popular now than it was at the time.
@@bozimmerman You're wrong. The Apple ][ had a huge impact on U.S. culture. Regardless of sales numbers, the Apple ][ was a ubiquitous fixture in schools, making them the computer most students had exposure to. (The TRS-80 Model III also had a big presence in schools, but the Apple ][ outlasted them.)
There's also the fact that the Apple ][ basically created the personal computer market via the first killer app - VisiCalc. Before that, home computers were only used by tinkering hobbyists. VisiCalc was the thing that put personal computers in businessperson offices. No longer would they have to submit all financial computing tasks to be done by a shared computer. They could get results quickly and interactively with a personal computer. This caught IBM flat-footed. Suddenly these toy-like home computers were an actual threat to their entire business model.
oh.,.......and now i know why my first comptuer was a ti/99....i mean..my parents basically bought it at the time they were giving them away, this video made me realise. See my dad was always quite the penny pincher (yes we could have afforded a c64). Being mostly interested in games, our ti/99 saw little use. I had two cousins who had a c64 and man did i wish i had one.
You had some bad luck, then. My dad got me a VIC-20 because it was the cheapest computer at the time. After that, the C64 was an affordable upgrade path that was compatible with the same tape drive and printer.
Ironically, the poor TI/99 games library was due to it being bad for programming. The VIC-20 and C64 had seemingly pathetic BASIC capabilities, but the POKE, PEEK, and SYS commands gave aspiring programmers full access to machine code programming while the TI/99 was locked down for the average user. Furthermore, the VIC20 and C64 Programmers Reference Guides game comprehensive info for how to program machine code and the machine's hardware features.
I think the TI/99 would have been a big success if it weren't for TI's attempt to lock down the software. Had they provided POKE, PEEK, SYS commands and programmers reference guides? Things could have been very different. Sure, the C64 would have still won the "war", but there would have been a ton more TI/99 software, including a lot of ports of software from the more popular and long-lived MSX computers (different CPU, but the same graphics chip).
Why was the VIC20 and C64 so open, with official reference guides going so far as telling everyone how to make software for them? I'd guess it's from Tramiel's experience with the PET. Even though the PET wasn't the big winner in sales, it still was popular enough for a lot of user groups making software for the thing. From Tramiel's penny pinching perspective, he must have thought, "This is great! I don't have to spend money or effort on software development. Just shovel the computers out there and let others do most of the work at no cost to me!"
Great video but there's a slight inaccuracy at 22:44, the PET 2001-8 did not cost over £1000, it was £720. Still too much to be a home computer though.
How come? It wasn't all that long ago when a desktop PC cost around $1,500 including monitor.
In 1977, the cost of a full assembled computer from IBM was around $10,000. So, in comparison, the $795 price tag was bargain basement. Heck, it was cheaper than the Apple II. Is that also not a home computer? The TRS-80 was around $600 with monitor.
You made Jack Tramiel sound like Jack Bauer from 24 (Kiefer Sutherland) LOL 😜
Great video. Love your work! Kind comment: There seems to be a repetition around minute 47:00 to 48:30.
Cheers! I second that!
If you like this kinda stuff I just saw one about the history visicalc. by another boring topic. thats his ch name.
I've been always curious on why the Atari ST and the Amstrad CPC line was so popular in France. Was it the price or better advertising than on Commodore products?
Oric too!
Nice video think those pieces of the G F in between cool most of the information I already knew.
But there is an error in the deal with Microsoft (Bill) for the Basic that cost $ 50,000 not 10,000 is also confirmed in the documentary Business is War, Leonard Tramiel said that himself.
Very good documentary, by the way, a recommendation for every Commodore fan.
I'd totally want to see a dark comedy series with a Jack Tramiel expy...
Learned to program on a pet. Still got it in my attic
I'm always astonished every time I hear someone put a computer in an attic.
@@sa3270 put up there years ago when we moved house
The story of one man's complete revengence after his calculator dreams where crushed.
Do you have a list of music used in your vid?
Cutting costs is the number one ability in business.
52:00 All play and no work makes Jack a dull boy.
Hey Kim, not sure if it's meant to be, but there appears to be a repetition of the narration at 47:18 and 48:00.
Didn't the C16/Plus 4 have updated Basic before the 128
The 80's seemed to be the time of cut throat Founders/CEOs, Tremiel, Gates, Jobs and others.
One thing I didn't care for about the AtariST was the GEM UI and I picked up an Amiga. I wish Commodore hadn't screwed up the Amiga so bad.
They're still cut throat but they have (as Gates demonstrates quite well) learned to mask their sociopathy with charities and empty gestures of commercial wokeness.
The difference between Tramiel and Gates/Jobs is that youtube is the only place you'll see Tramiel, Peddle, or Commodore's role in the home computer revolution mentioned. Everywhere else, well, the victors wrote the history.
Wonderful video, thank you thank you ! and... as a french guy, I can't help saying: Atari ST forever!!! :)
@Apple Pie & Cinnamon well yes they were, partly because the education administration equipped plenty of schools with them, so I guess that helped sales later on, parents wanted to buy at home the same computers that kids were already using at school. Myself I learned Logo programming on a T07. So yeah, the T07, the M05 (with the special edition Michel Platini, a famous football player back then !), were quite popular. But kids who played games knew that the C64, or Atari 8 bits, and of course later the Atari ST and Amiga were much better computers :)
Helen Goldgrub? What a name!!!!!!
Fantastic ep! only thin i had.... sorry about that.
Nothing to do with anything really, but I'm just curious:
Christopher "Kit" Spencer... Is he (was? Is he still alive? Semi-retired in the Bahamas I last read), anyway, is he English or American? I'm only asking because "Kit" is a _very_ American nickname! XoP
As I said, just curious... I know of only one exception of an Englishman going by the name Kit. And that was Kit Lambert - manager of The Who!
You just get everything right....
There's no evidence that the VIC-20 was inspired by the Sinclair ZX80, like the Commodore 116 was by the ZX81. From historical accounts, it's more likely the MSX machines were on Tramiel's mind when he made his famous call for a low cost computer, saying 'The Japanese are coming!'. This also explains why C= Japan played such a heavy role, and why it was released in Japan first. Was Sinclair Japanese?
The best history of the VIC-20 was told by the Product Manager of the VIC in a book called "The Home Computer Wars" by Michael Tomczyk. A close second would be Brian Bagnall's "Commodore: A Company on the Edge". Funny thing though -- only time Tomczyk mentions Sinclair is to make fun of how the Timex branded computers were destroyed in the U.S. market by the C64, and Bagnall doesn't bring him up until the topic of the 264-series (including the C116) becomes relevant.
The Vic-20 pre-dated the MSX machines by nearly four years.