5 Reasons Your HiFi SUCKS!
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2024
- #HiFi #Audiophile
00:00 Start
00:54 #5 Your amplifier isn’t a great match for your speakers!
03:40 #4 Your speakers arent as good as you thought!
07:48 #3 Your subwoofer or bass is out of control!
09:26 #2 You aren't investing in Acoustic Treatment!
11:43 #1 You slammed your speakers against the wall!
Videos mentioned:
How many watts do Audiophiles need? • How many "WATTS" do Au...
4 Things for better hifi | Acoustic Treatment • Audiophiles! 4 THINGS ...
LOTS: Loudspeaker Optimization Techniques for Soundstage • L.O.T.S. Loudspeaker O...
5 Reasons Your HiFi SUCKS
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Yes, #1 is the most important, bring those speakers 2 or 3 feet out in the room and you'll be shocked how much better your system will sound, and there's a good chance that your wife will leave you, so it's a win-win, thanks for the video.
I'm gonna get me a wife just so she can leave me
Good luck with that in many European houses! Mind you, my speakers were apparently designed to sound good close to a wall. The CEO of the company that made them is reputed to have said that anyone who designs a speaker that doesn't sound good close to a wall is an idiot. That said, I have mine about 18 inches from the wall, because I can!
Don’t have the room
SOOOO TRUE. I owned these speakers for a few months, Wharfedale diamond 12.2, and suddenly I took the time to move them away from the wall and even measure the distance and..... WOW... night and day... Huge huge difference.
Correct speaker positioning is common knowledge among audio people. It's well understood that near field reflections off of walls destroys imaging and sound staging. Speakers with wide dispersion need room to breath. Try to keep them as far from walls and corners as possible. The only compromise in doing this is you lose the richer, deeper bass response you get from border mounting.
I started my Audiophile journey about two years ago. My room is not perfect being more open on one side and I have to use the shorter side. First I purchased a pair of Revel Concerto M16’s and a good AV amp, using old speakers for surrounds. It sounded pretty good to me for music and watching TV. I added one sub and a M25 Center and the surround improved, but the music needed more. I then saw your LOTS video and learnt how to setup the subs and the sound improved a lot, thank you Ron. I then purchased an Atoll AM 100se amp a Topping D70S MQA dac and A90 using it partly as a preamp to try to improve the music side. There was a marked improvement for both surround and music. I now had a great soundstage, good center image and separation, However, the problem I had was mainly bass was not quite to right, with or without the subs. So I put in bass traps in the corners and things improved, but there was still too much vibration. I then added some diffusion panels absorption panels and wow was I happy, but there was still some vibrations, So I added some good (thicker) ceiling pyramids panels and boy I was shocked, the improvement was marked. I then added a iFi Stream replacing my computer as a source, as much for convenience as anything and this took me back, it really made a difference. Lastly, I took all the equipment including the subs and center channel out of an old style cabinet, leaving only the stereo and AV amps in a much more open rack. Then mounted the subs on a heavy but isolated plinth. Bingo, I was in heaven. For me the music now is sublime, the bass is so much better and vibrations gone for music and much less for AV. Even the surround improved to a level I never dreamed of.
I am sorry about the ramble, but my point is I learnt a lot as I went along and probably got things done in the wrong order. I think I got my equipment choices ok, however, the biggest difference were using LOTS, keeping the speakers away from the wall and experimenting with room treatment. So I wholeheartedly agree with your advice, this newbie now has a setup gives him a lot of pleasure. Music I have loved for years has taken on new dimension and I have a passion for discovering more. Keep up the good work and for others like me, listen to the advice here, it will pay dividends and save you cash in the long run.
Ron was on fire! (Especially played at 2x speed). Great tips but one overlooked but important investment that improves the sound of your system >> a nice bottle of wine. Enjoy!
I always watch him on 1.25x speed
Facts, wine gives me more spacious soundstage while in buzz mode. 😉
Should try smoking a joint, turns any system into a high end one.
@@MrDanjacs yes! it does indeed!
I like using a sub, thing is when I do you can't tell.
I worked in nightclubs for years but I don't want to live in one.
I use a sub to reinforce the bottom end, not shake the windows.
Usually the only way I can tell the sub is working is when I turn it off. When it's off, there's something missing, not much, just that subtle difference that makes all the difference.
Sounds like you have your sub set up correctly they way it's supposed to be for music at least. 👍
So many people think the sub should be the loudest but like you say its suppose to play the lower end your speakers won't play. It also helps your amp run cleaner because its not having to produce bass. Also the bass should sound like it's coming from your main speakers not the sub itself.
@@mmmadog the bass should sound like it’s coming from wherever in the mix the engineer decided to place it. And if you’re really trying to run a good 2ch setup, it’s generally better to run your mains full range, then run full range(preamp output or speaker/high level output) to sub, crossed over super low ~40 hz, so it picks up just where your mains begin to naturally drop off. The best sub integration into a system I’ve heard is done this way.
You're doing it right. When integrating a sub, I turn it up in small increments, till I hear it clearly, and then back down until the point where it seems to disappear.
Agreed.
Ron, Your advice is spot on. The three you mentioned that resonate with me are: 1) Room treatment !
2) Internal parts quality (I follow Danny's advice to the letter over at GR Research), and
3) Bring the speakers into the room to minimize room effects.
Two Additional Tips:
a) Choose amplifier power / speaker SPL based on the size of the room - Larger rooms usually need more power or more efficient speakers or both.
b) When upgrading power amplification, have an open mind regardless of topology (tube, solid state, hybrid, etc.) - Case in point: I chose a Class D integrated amp that converts all inputs (2 Toslink, 1 USB, 1 RIAA phono, and 1 analog line-in) to 24bit/192KHz digital streams prior to Class D BTL amplification - not because exotic components were used (most are COTS), but because of the designer's expertise and design philosophy conveyed by a trusted reviewer.
Again, many thanks for this well timed video :)
Put your speakers on stands, 12" off the floor, and then you dont need to pull them out so far.
I've listened to high quality speakers from 1977 to 1997 without a sub, so I won't need to redo that test. However, I would agree that most people play their subs too loud. You shouldn't be able to point at the sub and say that's where the bass is coming from. The bass should sound like it is coming from the speakers.
Thank you for the fine video. I always learn something.
My subs are just 2 onehundred watt 8 inch drivers between my mains crossed over at 65hz . it's turned up to 1/8th or just over for music and 1/4 on movies (just enuff to fill out where the bookshelf speakers start rolling off. My room is 20x40x9 open floor joists basement. That i have added stuff too over the years. Two bass traps .... some front wall corre tion. Works perfect. My room makes my stuff sound great. Makes me wonder what good stuff would sound like in my room. I hear "better" stuff at other people's place. But it never sounds as good. Room and setup for YOUR gear is key.
I tried all your techniques, the speaker placement worked AMAZINGLY for me. It turned my 10 year old speakers into new, showing me sound I never heard before. Thanks to you Ron, my "pull-out" game is on point now...speaker pull out that is. Thank you!
My pull out game wasn't so on point, I have a 21 year old in college.... Wait what are we taking about?
Now you're next upgrade is the speakers, if the brand is still around, call 📞 them, let them know what you have and can the driver's be upgraded, even the crossover too, I'm a 90s car audio installer, this will improve your sound quality in your system 👌 😄 too
@@danielmoore2416 I got the Energy RC-70's and they are as good as the reviews online say. So unfortunately no upgrade packages for me. I have however been narrowing down the sound specificities that I enjoy the most and instead of upgrading to larger bombastic speakers I am going down..to more detailed, clear and deliberate sound. Such as the ML motion 20's and the Emotiva T zero ( currently on order).
@@pepeltoro444 okay 👌 if that's what's your looking for, for example, # 1 how big is the room, #2 what sound quality or dynamics are you looking for, #3 the type of music you playing 😉. It all comes down too the specifics your looking for. 2 way speakers can give you the dynamics of sound your looking for. Good luck and enjoy, ohhh I have a set of paradigm micros v3 ,Boston acoustic vr57 for surround sound 10" psb sub NAD av 743 receiver av 😀 ♥ all for jazz listening, dynamics, tonality, separation of instruments, left channel drums, sax, bass, right channel trumpet, piano, vibes,etc this all leads too sound quality, enjoy my friend.
Reason #0.5 - Your music was mastered by a half deaf Grandpa that spent 30 years in the Army with no ear protection. #BringBackDynamicRange
It is too bad we don't have audio visual stores anymore. I use to love going in and listening and watching the latest gear. Many people these days will never get the experience of hearing the fidelity differences between all the different types of high end gear.
To be honest with you there is a lot of places that still have Hi-Fi stores, you just got to look. Where I live in Florida I do not have any Hi-Fi stores here, but within a 2-hour drive I can hit three different ones, and then if I'm willing to spread out and do a 5-hour drive I can hit at least 10 different ones.
I mean obviously that seems obvious right, I don't mean for it to be a lecture but there are still dozens and hundreds and even thousands of audio retail stores out there in America and Canada and even Mexico, and to just say that they don't exist anymore is frankly a lie, and a lazy one at that.
Hell you're even more lucky if you live in Europe or especially The UK or Australia or even Japan, in some parts of the world you can't spit without hitting a Hi-Fi store
There used to be a lot more for sure - had a few in Knoxville years ago. But now I have to drive to a bigger city like Nashville or Atlanta- which is usually not worth the effort when online stores like Crutchfield have such consumer friendly return policies. Some companies like SVS will even allow you to trade up your gear for higher end gear within 12 months of purchase.
You get a lot more valuable experience spending a month with new gear in your home than a few minutes in a crowded hifi shop; and you’re only out 30-40 bucks or so for shipping if you decide to return.
Very refreshing to hear some great no nonsense information. I always say the room is the most component of an audio system. And as you pointed out, most people have no clue how much they are missing by having the speakers pushed up against the wall and no room treatment what so ever. I understand if it is also your living space, but I see a lot of photos on the internet where it is just a listening room.
#2 is so neglected so often. I've been to plenty of audio meetups in various peoples' places, and I've heard relatively affordable systems sound quite good because of the well-treated rooms they're in, but perhaps more often I've heard rather expensive systems sound mediocre (I suspect) because of the untreated spaces they're in. Getting some decent treatment in my space was one of the few upgrades I can say legitimately earned the "night and day improvement" cliche, and it was only a few hundred bucks (to be fair, my room is on the small side of medium).
Ron great video with lots of helpful information. I'm glad there are so many opportunities besides throwing money at the problems. Thank you.
My system is a really odd smorgasbord system. A JVC AX-R551 amp from 1989, a set of Klipsch Quattro speakers from the late 80’s set about a foot away from the wall and somewhat angled for reflection, a 1978 Sanyo TP1010 turntable and a Mac mini computer attached. They play really nicely together.
You are just right! Room treatment and the position of your loudspeakers are gonna improve the sound much more than a new DAC or preamplifier. 50cm more forward or backward of your hearing position is a huge change. The toe-in of the speaker influence the soundstage and definition of what your hearing more than any component in your gear! Take your money and invest in your listening room.
The challenge is room treatment could possibly have more push back from the spouse than any of the other audio components.
No kidding imagine the sound you will hear when you plaster the walls with 12×12 acoustic panels, Yikes
I always take in consideration the room and environment restrictions when asked for speaker recommendations. Does your room have enough space to pull the speakers 2-3 feet out from the wall? No? Maybe consider front ported speakers. Room size? Edit: You totally covered this on #1. My bad.
it's very important to ask if the room has a ceiling. Sometimes the answer is "No" and then it is important to recommend professional p a gear.
Ron - mate i cant agree with you more - took me 3 months to have my speakers in my small dedicated room sounding right and im still getting wall treatments to make it even better. i just giggle to the youtube reviewers that have no idea about speaker placement and treatment. when they do speaker/equipment reviews im listening for entertainment, not for information. Keep up the good work
But what makes you think they have no idea about placement and treatment? The ones I watch do. They may shoot in a room that is untreated or place them badly, but this may very well be just because it's more photogenic that way. It doesn't necessarily mean they do their listening in a bad room. Or perhaps they intentionally test in an untreated room, because most viewers will do the same for various reasons (room treatment can be rather ugly, which may not get approved by their significant other or even their own taste. Carpets may cause allergic etc. reactions / health issues.)
@@kadajawi6567 you can tell various reviewer how they setup their speakers and equipment. Example Ron knows what he is doing - look at the speaker locations. when he shows them for display they are obviously not set up.
From an old guy who used to sell hifi and work for a manufacturer (and been in the hobby for 40 years), This is some great common sense advice. I loved the bit about what’s the best speakers…..I used to reply, what’s the best flavor and brand of ice cream, and make a similar point.
Well you should know from experience what the customer needs... The most expensive speakers they can afford. Only kidding but you don't always know what you don't know. Sometimes until you hear it, you don't know what you are looking for. About 25 years ago I did some IT work for a couple of the guys that worked in a high end audio store. Most of them had their own dedicated home theaters. One had a high end Klipsch set up (no I am not talking the cheap crap people are buying today, I am talking the really expensive stuff of the past). Another had a full M&K THX 5000 setup, another was into better quality Polk stuff.
Sometimes you only know what you don't like (like the Klisch, nothing wrong with it, but I knew it just didn't grab me, while detailed it sounded completely sterile). I was going to go down the M&K route, had already bought one of the big subs and was about to spend some serious coin on some THX certified speaker when one of the guys dragged me into one of the listening rooms to listen to these new speakers they had just gotten in. They were a pair of Sonus Faber Grand Pianos. After one listen I found what I had been looking for and my love affair with neutral coated paper drivers begun.
I then bought a set brought them home and experienced my first experience of speakers that needed to be broken in (they didn't sound anything like what I had heard in the showroom, I thought there was something wrong with them). And I then purchased another two sets of Sonus Faber Concertos for rear speakers (I think, started with a C from memory) and a Sonus Faber Gravis sub.
I thought I had my music / home theatre needs sorted... But it wasn't long before I was craving more detail, so I sold all that gear and bought myself a set of Sonus Faber Electa Amator 2's (man those things made my ears orgasm) but alas while they had the detail I was after they still lacked the full range of a floor stander I wanted for home theatre (still regret selling them, paid $7200 only got $2300 for them should have kept them at that price for spares). That led me into buying a set of Sonus Faber Cremonas.
And for quite a while I was happy with the Cremonas, but they didn't have the detail that the previous Electa Amator 2's had... When it come time to upgrade the next set of speakers in the Sonus Faber range were $40,000. And while I could afford them, I couldn't justify them to myself. That is when I decided I was paying through the nose for a pretty box, and decided since I knew what brand drivers were in the Cremonas (took a peak inside) it would just buy the next level of drivers from the manufacturer and go active with a Ground Sound DCN28 active crossover.
It was about that same time I discovered these speakers called open baffle. And while I probably spent as much as the Cremonas in drivers alone, it was that next level I was looking for. So even though it took me a while to find the right forest, it still took me a long time to find the right tree, and I knew what I was mostly looking for.
@wetsox there is no end to that road bro.. remember kef brought ls50 to axpona as their flagship speaker.. yes that 1000$ speaker.. and they sound great, but will that ls50 sound as good in our system? i dont think so.. kef didnt just brought speaker did they?
I went from hi-fi to pro audio because my neighbors deserve to have great music taste.
I have Maggies and the first thing everyone asks, "Why are the speakers 4ft from the wall". Then I sit them down and play their music, question answered.
exactly.. I had to sell my Maggies because my listening room got chopped down to a spare basement bedroom. Completely neutered the LRS.
Very good 👍 they don't know imaging makes a difference in sound quality.
Its not exactly a must to have maggies far from the wall. I turned mine sideways and brought them 6’ into the room but only a foot from the sidewalls. It was nearfield listening with a huge soundstage. Almost like maggie headphones
Hi Ron, I too am a Ron and a hifi enthusiast and have been for 46 yrs since I was 13 yrs old in 1976. Thanks for posting! Very informative and fun to watch.
Should there be 2-3 ft between the wall and the back of the speaker, or between the wall and the tweeter?
Absolutely spot on about bass. My perception of bass changed the day my old amp with tone controls died. On someone's advice I bought a new one with no tone controls to replace it. What a difference. In the past I just couldn't resist the temptation to increase the bass on my old amp. Now I can hear so much more dynamic range in the bass. Way better! BTW, I'm not saying tone controls are wrong, I'm just saying that I couldn't resist cranking the bass when I had them and went on to discover more about bass that I hadn't previously experienced.
What new amp was it?
If you are set up correctly the tone controlls should be flat.
@@fivish what a ridiculous comment. Music is a personal thing. There is no "shoulds.
Awesome topic love your videos thanks!
Thank you Ron for these invaluable lessons.
Great information Ron and I'm sure everyone can use this to improve their listening experience.
Now I'm off to the store to pick out carpeting for my ceiling, lol.
I switched my sub off two hours ago while listening to jazz. It's quite a shock to be reminded how low my towers can go on their own. I couldn't help but wonder if I needed the sub at all. Spot on Ron on resetting the mindset once in a while
Totally!
I had Klipsch RF7i’s for 13 years, and they produced a staggering amount of bass, like rattle the wall bass, especially with movies 🔊🔊
Dude, you need not only one but two subs. This Ron guy is not telling the whole story here. A pair of well tuned subs will bring you and your system to sonic bliss!!! Don’t give up on yours, just tune it and position it PROPERLY and don’t believe in everything you see on CZcams 😉
Now I feel happy that I somehow managed to setup my subwoofer that it works in music unobtrusive but in movies gives me some nice rumble ... without letting my old people think a war broke out.
It's easy to shake your room with a sub, but it's a different thing set it up just right!
Great tips, Ron, thanks.
Entertainingly presented. Thank you so much.
Really informative and enjoyable 👍
Great video, Ron. When I saw the title, I said to myself, "This is going to be a pile of radical nonsense." But all of these recommendations are spot on. The only one I haven't done, or should I say can't do, is #2: Acoustical Room Treatments. It's really not possible in my room because of a giant model railroad that runs around the outside of it. I would love to move my gear into a dedicated room, but my wife already thinks that I'm out of my mind...and of course she's correct. LOL
Hey thanks!
#1 occurs for multiple reasons. First is space. Even those who own nice houses often do not have a room they can truly dedicate to having speakers in the middle of the room. Secondly, you have other people in the house who will almost certainly object to that arrangement on aesthetic grounds…. those same people will also object to bass traps hanging in the corners of your rooms, or treatments stuck to the walls.
Got some sliding tracks on Amazon and hung some sound deadening curtains and was biggest improvement over any thing I’ve ever done it’s like it made some of the past tweaks that didn’t yield anything come to life , it’s definitely a catalyst for everything else
Great video! I have limited experience as a hobbyist but I've learned the most important foundation is to FIX YOUR ROOM FIRST! I do tinker at an advanced level though. I put in four panels of 4" Owens-Corning 703 wrapped in acoustic cloth (panels were rigid enough to cover without a frame, used spray glue at edges of cloth on back side, left back open, stuck them on little spikes screwed to the wall) at my primary and secondary reflection points. Total cost: $120 (mainly because I had to buy six panels to get the four that I needed). I have an HT/Music setup and was able to completely eliminate equalization on everything above the crossover to the sub (I still use the system delay and phase, etc). It was the single biggest change I've ever made to my listening environment.
Thanks for your help😁
Very good video. Thank you.
Thanks Ron. Love the videos. Looking to invest in Magnepan LRS just to save my back. Moving my Klipsch out from the wall to listen to music is getting exhausting 😁 also still amazed at the difference some bass traps and treating first reflections made.
Absolutely!
I’ve heard a lot of good things about the LRS’s. Earlier this year, I picked up a pair of MMG’s for $300 from a guy who had them in a way-too-big room. I was doubting what I’d done until I got them set up in my 11’w x 18’d x 8’h space and was amazed at how beautiful they sounded (25 yrs old, too). If anything, I’m getting too much bass and am working at how to tone it down and get it more defined. Room dynamics and speaker placement are only surpassed in significance by speaker placement and room dynamics.
To be honest, this video showed up a couple times before on my feed. Never watched it, always assumed it was full of the typical condescending / opinionated / subjective nonsense so many audiophiles are known for. But these five points all make sense. For me: I know I should treat my listening room. I know this very well, yet always end up buying audio equipment instead.
Glad you watched it Jan! Thanks!
Great video Ron!!! I need to de-clutter my listening room!
The issues addressed in this video, although very basic, are fundamentally important: while they can make or break the listening experience, they can make an entry-level system very enjoyable from day one.
This is great, you are hitting on the big issues that hold back folks from experiencing true high fidelity performance. Re #2, I have finally built a room worthy of treatment, and have done the work of adding absorption and diffusion panels, and the room sounds amazing, but my friends admit that I would never be able to get away with the room treatments I have done if I were married, as the wife would never have tolerated all of it, even though it has been done tastefully and made to look really good as well as function very well.
He he are you planning to get married
To add a 1a: if you can't move speakers much and the problem is bass, put a rolled up sock in the port if they have one. Mine are wall-mounted as safety for toddlers. A definite loss from their out front stand position before, but the sock mod helped a lot.
Agree with what you said, especially your number 1. I don't know how many times I have told my sister that the front speakers need to live at least a meter off any wall. "They look horrible in the middle of the room". Sorry but this is non negotiable. Spent way too much money to have this level of gear to have it sound like crap. I told her that the $5,000 they spent on their leather lounge was wasted as there in no way to sit in the sweet spot without sitting on top of the area where the remotes are stored. They are somewhat reluctant to change it.
But they are not the only ones that do it. I have non audio friends that have speakers jammed between furniture and both speakers facing straight ahead, so you are listening off axis. I don't think they have ever done any critical listen to notice the difference between on and off axis. It cost nothing (except aesthetics) why wouldn't you place your speakers in the right place if you can.
Great video! Especially the part on speaker modifications. It’s amazing the improvements that can be made following the GR Reserch recipe. Plus it’s allot of fun doing the upgrades.
Happy to say I passed all your "tests". You earned a subscribe with #1 (and #2). I have been saving pictures of high(er) end speakers that are right up against the front wall. For use in a future post in my FB audiophile group. It drives me nuts, but that said, it is often, or at least sometimes, out of necessity.
The subwoofer comment is a very good one also. My main system is also part of an HT, I use a separate 2 channel preamp with HT passthrough for stereo (2.0) listening. But I do get used to the deep bass in the system when using the HT. You need time listening without gobs of extra bass to become accustom to how it really should be for music. I have tried a few times to integrate subs into my 2 channel systems, but always go back to 2.0.
I have also found, when I occasionally (rarely) listen to rock music from my youth, that there is no where near the amount of bass I remember. I am sure it is because when I was young, the bass and/or sub was always cranked. Now it comes across bass deficient by contrast. I also find it interesting that recordings from Janis Ian or Carly Simon (albums I enjoy quite a bit now) often have more/deeper bass than the rock albums I thought were so full of bass...
Loved all your points especially #3. I own more than 50 sets of speakers all sound pretty good but different since they span the 1950's to present. For me having many options I prefer large horns and active crossovers. Dynamics make listening fun.
Where the loody hell do you store them all. & Why keep that many. I HAD 3 sets & they were wasted sitting in stored boxes. My grandkids often get free hifi on me upgrading. Sorry but I think horns are often huge & ugly & my pet hate. Hifi shouldn't dominate your lounge if you have a partner. But we ain't all the same.
@@ENGLISHISBEST So true brother......It is just a fun hobby for me I don't take it seriously......just kind of a puzzle to be figured out :)
What would your thoughts be on the Cerwinvega AT15s?? , and what amp or receiver do you think will move them so to speak? Thank you
Outlaw Audio RR2160 Receiver
@@pjo1964 Thank you, do you have any info on that receiver?, or where to purchase one?
great video 👍
totally agree. 🍻
I have to say I have a buddy who hooked me up with a great amp NAD 388 with a BluOS module as well as some Tekton Lores, then proceeded to nail the placement of them 3ft away from the wall toe’d in, then we added a beautiful 12” sub(sun-crawl for placement) and my audio room is perfect. Carpet floor/ acoustic ceiling tile, I might go for some wall deadening material after I watch your video on it. Love this thou. Thank you
Right on Ronny!
PS thanks re speaker optimization flick. I'll check it out. Cheers
And, BTW, this has to be the most important video that anyone getting into hifi can watch, Following Ron's advice, as he has presented it here, will do two things. 1, you will save a ton of money that you normally would have spent trying out different gear. And 2, by following Ron's advice you will enjoy music again. Far less of your precious energy will be used figuring out which gear to buy, and instead, you are going to relax and fall in love with music again.
Thanks man!
Regarding number 1, this would be true, especially for side wall proximity, but with the speakers right up close to the rear wall (or front wall, whichever you call the wall behind your speaker) doesn’t have to be a problem if you are able to apply basic parametric EQ to take the bass increase from this position down.
Actually, just pulling out your speakers further from the wall can affect other things like creating dips in your bass response. It’s always best to experiment with a mic and measurement software when moving speakers about.
Great vid Ron and just stumbled upon this. I have a pair of late 80's JBL's that I bought new and a pair of Boston Acoustics bookshelf models on stands in my 12X18 living room. Each is in a corner of my rectangular living room and for the life of me...I can't figure out where to move them to, to optimize the sound as you mentioned. How far out from each corner makes an improvement? I'm a bachelor so aesthetics dont' matter. Thanks very much and Merry Christmas.
The advice in this video is very spot on, Ron. Your Brain DOES condition to the Sound. I use various Bookshelf Speakers that I purchased in the past year or so for my basement "sound studio" created in COVID Hibernation last year. I find myself listening to various pairings (2 systems - A) 1 Denon DRA-800H Receiver ; B) IOTA SA3 / PA3 and a Emotiva A300 Amp). Each connected to different sides of the finished basement (Front and Rear). The first pairings will sound great , then after time, I find myself Shifting the speaker combinations (2 Pairs of Elacs [Debut and References], 1 Pair of Fluances & 1 pair of KEF Q350s) front to rear and so on... Oh yeah 1 SW (Monoprice 60 Watt ) in the rear. It is OCD behacior for sure. Watching this video does Put in your Face and serves to remind you about the Brain Conditoning. I'm a 70 YO, retirted , male , who has returned to playing Drums after a 50 Year Hiatus , in recreactional enjoyment. I play to MY Music. When I play both sytems simultaneously ... Wow sounds like a Concert Hall.
The #1 leading cause of HiFi suckery is that you haven’t confiscated your wife’s whip and grown a real set of you know what. Get those speakers away from the wall ; )
Hi Ron, great video.
I was going to say I can't live without upgraded caps in my speakers. Jupiter caps combine with Miflex caps are well worth it, and its an easy upgrade to hear an improved sound!
Thank you so much Ron for an amazing video, please bring back our and our audio hour
I recently moved, and as a result had to give up my pair of SVS subs (sb13 Ultra's). I was bummed........until the first note dropped in the new room. I don't miss them a bit. My little standmounts have soooo much presence in this particular room (and, and this is like the 6th room they've lived in). This room breaks the rules (no treatments (yet), too close to the wall, etc.), but there's something magical happening. Best I've heard from these speakers (which were built by Danny, so they're good!!).
I finally fell in in love with you on this video. You are so honest. Talk about making me smile. Thanks Ron.
Ron, I have a pair of KEF 104/2 Tower Speakers since 1987. They are connected to a NAD 1300 Preamp and a NAD 2600 Amp of the same Vintage. No Subs, No Equalizers. Although I may be tempted to go for a Schiit model... My question is this. Could I add an additional pair of Bookshelf Speakers (a possibilty is either Elac Reference 6.2s or KEF Q350s), that would be wired in Parallel? There is no second speaker channel on the NAD equipment. I will double check the 104s for the Ohms - which I think are niminal at 8 Ohms. The KEF Q350s are 8 Ohms Nominal, the Ellacs are 6 Ohm Nominal ? Would this fry the equipment.?
Well said!👍🏻
This is an incredibly helpful I had no idea we had no idea
Wow! You are so right about upgrading parts... major, major improvements are to be had as everything is cumulative. Also speaker break in is really essential to consider, even with vintage speakers that have been sitting..so on target!
Tubes on top actually came from many of the major recording studios of the 70's and 80's. I used to read Mix magazine and Recording Engineer/Producer Magazine and owners would always be bragging about that. Properly implemented, and attending to concerns such as yours, the idea can work.
With living in a studio apartment, I tried my speakers in different areas. I set them on the arms of my overstuffed loveseat, I don't have to have the volume that loud, but it sounds loud, I can hear the separation really clear. What is shocking it the Speakers are Onkyo bookshelf speakers that I got at a thrift store for $11.99 a pair that I'm using a Marantz 2220b receiver $300, Pioneer RT-701 Reel to Reel $280, Teac 3300-10 reel to reel $290, Kenwood KD-2000 turntable $120, Audio Technica AT95E Cartridge $49, and Advent 3 speakers $25 for back-up speakers. I have a large wool Flokati rug to help absorb the sound. And with being in a studio apartment, I'm sure the bed help too with the sound. Back in 1974 I had the Marantz 2275 with the Imperial 7 speakers, really loved those speakers!
I remember seeing or reading it in a magazine from Roy Clark (Hee Haw) to move your speakers from the corner of the room. Ancient PSA from the 70's or 80's.
Spot in with the bass. Turning down the bass and finding where the crossover point between your speakers and sub doesn’t create a hump and just sounds like more extension was key. I used to look for power now I want accuracy, speed, and subs that disappear
Absolutely spot on. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen examples of this, especially #1. I’ll add “my system can hit 136db. I’ll bet that sounds great…
Using direct mode on my marrantz for 2 channel music was the best thing I ever discovered. It really opened up my Elac debut reference speakers and made it enjoyable.
This was fun 😁 ... Thanks, Ron.
Thanks Kanga! Always great seeing you in the comments!
@@Newrecordday2013 ... Love being part of the meaningful content when presenters offer high value perspectives. 🙏🙏
Love it!. Well said! And yes,I am guilty of many items you laid out. I reserve the right to get smarter, though.
I plugged my LS-50s into a cheap Pioneer receiver for a couple of months. Let's just call that... less than optimal :)
hi Ron good video there is so many types of speakers out there its mind boggling. big horn ones very tall ones that reach your ceiling where do you draw the line as a audiophile . mine are from denmark i bought them way back 2002 . system audios . DACS are changing now they support 8xDSD and support i2s hdmi connection to play your physical sacds knstead of relying on your inboards players dac. is an outboard dac better than my BluRay players dac? i tried the biamping with a mini tupe amp i have miniwatt and i used one of my parasound amp for the mid woofers i dont think the tube amp did nothing for the tweeters wel i stopped doing that i thought my tweeters would tweet somehow
I would love to say I turned off the sub and found the sound was close but lacking in low-end extension... Nope, turned the gain down on my subs by 30%. Thanks for the video, the subwoofer tip alone was eye-opening. I loved the LOTS video but found the left and right exaggeration in the nearfield setup to be too much. I also found there was an audible separation in the subs to the speakers for the overall sound stage. I could co-locate the subs, but they are much more accurate corner loaded in my listening space. Still, I love your videos. Keep up the great work!
Me too, bye bye sub.
Thank you for this video. As someone with 50 years in this hobby, I would like to add two things. First, when it comes to 2 channel stereo (not home theatre), a subwoofer is unnecessary if you take the time to select a correct pair of speakers, be it floorstanding or bookshelf. I've seen systems ruined by too much bass. Take the extra money you're going to spend and invest it in your speakers instead. Second, people who are unhappy with their system tend to put too much money in the front end and not enough in the back end. A good rule of thumb is to spend 60 pct. on your speakers and 40 pct. on your amp/preamp/dac. I've yet to see a system not be improved with better speakers, however you define it. Thanks again, and Happy Listening!
Recap your crossovers with good film caps + bypass caps, air core inductors, mills resistors. you will amazed
@@tallpaull9367 newbie here, is this a hard thing to do yourself?
@@218maryland If you have a soldering iron and know how to use it: no. Otherwise: yes.
@@Dennis-vh8tz Gotcha. Thanks for the response
Appreciate your views, I'm subscribed. Just putting together a system now that the kids are out, and although due to my pension plan it may come in weaker than hoped. I will say I heard things with my jamos that really surprised me. My old Utahs been passed on but still being used at my brother's. Anyway thanks for your input. The sub info was exactly what I told another tuber sub is not your main bass but an addition to support your bass. He was so unhappy it was rattling was pretty evident it was cranked to max. Hope he turns in to you or just maybe he heard me. Anyway I'll keep watching and learning thanks.
Thank you!
Dreaming of a Barry White cover of Ride Across the River. Thanks for that Ron!
#6: Forgetting that the reason you own all this audio gear is because you get a buzz out of music. I think a lot of us obsess about the qualities of our systems and stop just enjoying what's playing. I still catch myself leaning forward and back trying to find the sweet spot of the stereo image, listening for peaks in the response etc. etc. second-guessing myself constantly, before realising that the symphony or electronic album or whatever I put on is nearly over. The times I remember to sit down and shut my f***ing brain off are the golden ones. Changing from separates to a 'just add speakers' Naim streaming amp has helped a lot with removing the endless system-doubt.
Couldn’t have put it any better… learning to be content is the secret to enjoyment
Re. point no. 2, and including WAF issues, a little bit can be a good place to start if fuller treatment options are not appealing at the time to a listener; and other than panels, traps, etc., very beneficial 'room treatments' can often be achieved through non-specialized changes: not setting up systems in perfectly square rooms if other options exist (look it up); adequate carpeting; some things on the walls, or next to them, even bookcases or paintings (not glass-covered pictures) around initial reflection points; some large real or fake plants; speakers not up against front walls or against side walls; removing coffee tables and other larger furniture in the listening path straight from speakers to sitting position; not sitting right against back wall; sitting at a standard listening height, not very high or low; etc. All of these changes can improve the sound you're hearing from your listening position and none of them require specialized audio treatment purchases- not that I'm knocking their reasonable use.
Well-lived in- looking rooms, if not overstuffed ('over-damped'), generally sound substantially better and 'more natural' than emptier ('under-damped') rooms, or ones primarily composed of hard-wood or tiled floors, bare walls, large expanses of windows, and little else in them.
ALSO, OF COURSE- ROOMS CAN BE OVER-TREATED WITH ACOUSTIC ELEMENTS- LESS IS OFTEN MORE- For example, Audio Connection's rooms at their store in Verona, NJ for their higher-end systems (full disclosure- I have no business or personal connection with them, and have never bought from them), have minimal specialized treatments of the professional kind but sound quite good, using some of the kinds of of elements mentioned above.
I have my Jamo 707's connected to My Onkyo receiver, added soundstage rears, 12" soundstage powered subwoofer, NHT center Channel. Sounds phenomenal 👍
Thank you for your great revews Ron. I have rogers ls3/5a 15 ohm and i am looking for a amp 1500 to 2000 us. I like great mids and not not not like sharp highs .thank you reinhart
Hi, your video popped up in my daily Google feed. Good suggestions that I can relate to. Subscribed.
Welcome aboard Tony.
As long as your heaving your speakers around the room, why not give the toe in angle a tweak? Speakers firing straight forwards may reduce the treble a smidge and soften the sound. On the other hand, it may increase reflections from side walls, upsetting the stereo imaging capability. It’s free and finding that perfect angle can make a huge difference.
That's a good point Mark, not every speaker responds to being directly on axis. Sometimes it takes a bit of fettling to find the acoustic sweet spot.
What do you think about getting a decent microphone and doing measurements? That way I confirmed what I thought... placing the subwoofer to the right, where it looks nice, would be bad for the sound quality. It helps with dialing in the sub just perfect... not by ear, but by the frequency response curve. It helps with figuring out what is wrong with the room (in my case, bass and mid range have too much reflections and echo...). If pushing the speakers in or out helps.
There is a trend among many speaker manufacturers to make their speakers smaller and smaller. However, it is a trend that is bad for the music. To reproduce the full spectrum of recorded music including realistic dynamics, speakers cannot be reduced to the size of shoe boxes. There are physics at work and trying to cheat them only cheats your music.My listening room is 90 percent absorbent and with stereo cross-talk cancellation, I achieve a true 3 dimensional soundstage including the natural reverberation recorded on the source material.And, if you are serious about music, you must, i repeat. you must have a dedicated listening room.
Very True. It is the super stupid craze for miniaturization of Speakers which is destroying the Music. And, of course, the ROOM is of Paramount Importance.
Not only a dedicated a room, but one of the right dimensions. I don't care how much room treatment you put in a square room you aren't going to overcome the room nodes. So if you have the chance to build a dedicated listening room, aim as close as you can get to something like the golden ratio or one of the other ratios.
I'm glad to see someone who knows what they are talking about present a solid video covering the 5 reasons your hifi sucks, thanks!
Speaker positioning is touched upon your #1 reason, but unless I missed it, it's helpful for people to understand that in most cases, speakers need to be pulled at least 2 ft away from the back and side walls.
One reason is that you listen to cassette tapes with the factory azimuth setting and have one setting to rule them all. Actually the player needs the azimuth setting to be mis-aligned the same way that the recorder that was used to make that particular recording was mis-aligned. If the sound quality gets way worse when you flip the mono switch to mono, that means the setting is wrong.
I’m happily running 85dB 4 ohm speakers on a 300b amplifier and it sounds amazing. Of course I’m listening near field but even at 6ft it will gladly play 86dB which is plenty for this application. I’m not sure I’d call low sensitivity and single ended a bad match if your expectations WRT output are rational. Additionally, using different amplifiers for bass and mid/high frequencies is very common and can work but you have to account for differences in amplifier voltage gain. Ive done this by matching amplifiers, using amplifiers with built in volume control, use additional preamp stage on mid/high section, active crossovers and with DSP…. Point is if you know what you are doing there is nothing technically wrong with these methods but probably not good to use unless you really know what you are doing.
Totally reasonable and true!
My KEF q150 + ZA3 amp works well for any well mastered stereo music from the 60s onward .. But I like a lot of music prior to that - old jazz, mono recordings, etc - Some old recordings sound very thin and narrow - and these speakers are just too revealing of production shortcomings. just wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a second setup that’ll dress up these kind or recordings?
Closer acoustics Ogy + Bob seems ideal, but it cost a small fortune. Maybe Wharfedale Lintons and a tube amp?
👌 Awesome. I can't believe how much I can agree with your top 5. 👏
Question on panels for the 1st reflection point. I bought some 2’ h x 3’ w x 4” d landscape art panels and hung them like you would typical artwork for Wife acceptance. The bottom of the panel is at about ear height. Now I know something is better than nothing, but is this going to be a bottleneck in my room treatment? I’m adding two more art panels on the same side walls and a couple more flush mounted (I know, bad, ceiling isn’t tall) 2” ceiling panels, but curious if that 1st reflection isn’t totally tamed, I’m wasting money putting panels elsewhere.
The Barry White comparison made me laught so hard ... :) ! You are right as always.
All true, thank you! :)
I was super excited to get my Paradigm 800F's and Denon PMA-800NE.
Got them all hooked up and was super disappointed, they basically sounded just as bad as my current setup.
Was about to call the place and send them back, but decided to do the "Burn In" suggested on a few forums.
Glad I did, after 2 days and about 40 hours of loud playback, they sounded SO much better.
And I just want to say that I wasn't there. we were visiting family for birthdays those 2 days so were gone all day, so I didn't get any listening beyond the first impression, which lasted about 30-40 minutes.
Oh yes burn is real. I think with today's materials it becomes more necessary. Back in the day all they had paper or plastic 😆.
To have a burn-in without all the volume, just connect one speaker out of phase and have them facing each other (3-5" apart), drivers facing drivers. Turn up the music and let them do their thing. You get not so loud volume due to the driver cancellations, with max driver break-in.
First video I’ve seen on this channel. Absolutely subscribed.
Me, too! 👍👍
#1 Placement of the listener, #2 Placement of the speakers, #3 Room Treatment, #4 Speaker/Amp synergy, #5 Good source material… Don't sweat the cables, wires, racks, etc… UNTIL you have the above 5 sorted…. bonus #6 REW and PEQ to fix remaining problems… when PEQing avoid raising anything especially the bass… only lower…
I love your direct style. Don't change.
Excellent!
Still dialing in my LOTS , fine tuning every day!
Same here! Always making some small adjustments!
Visited a neighbour's house recently, he'd just spent a small fortune to buy some locally made bookshelf speakers and ran them through his newly-refurbed '70's Sherwood receiver. Alarm bells rang when I entered the room, a long narrow well-padded room. The said speakers are there, with their dust covers on, tucked neatly away either side of a bookcase. On the floor. UP AGAINST THE WALL. So the records went on, and, predictably, they sounded TERRIBLE. Not just bad, but like the sound was coming through a wet sock. After around two hours of this I became frustrated and asked if I cld adjust a few things. The amp yes (thank God, as he was running it "flat" and everything sounded wet) but no I cldnt TOUCH the speakers. The wife would get upset. So we said our goodbyes. What a total waste of money. And this guy is a brilliant talented musician and listens under the worst possible conditions, barring a bathroom. At least the couch was comfortable