How to Select Header Primary Tube Diameter - Summit Racing Quick Flicks
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- čas přidán 23. 12. 2012
- CORRECTION: White board should read - (Peak torque RPM x 1 cy displacement) 88,200=PPA
Calculate the optimum header primary tube size for your power and performance needs. This video explains the importance of proper header primary diameter and includes key formulas for figuring out the right diameter for your engine. It also factors in primary tube length and how it affects your overall power and torque curves. www.summitracing.com/redirect?... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I spent 2 years working for Hendricks Motorsports modeling engines and designing and fabricating headers. Ideally the cross sectional area of the primary tubes should be the same as the cross sectional area of the exhaust port. Otherwise, the speed of the exhaust bolus must change at the interface and this creates turbulence and unnecessary pumping losses. Would love to compare notes with you.
Damn all this planning and I didn’t even consider the drag directly at the port exit due to an abrupt change in cross section. Especially since the gas will cool as it passes through the headers the exhaust port is the point of most constriction. Thank you for your comment, very enlightening.
What can be done to stop reversion in the exhaust?
[(Peak Power RPM * 1 Cyl displacement)/ 88,200]=PPA
little bit of a mix up on rearranging the formula
Where does 88,200 math constant come from?
Tha k you
How would a turbo charged system play into this formula? I thought that a turbo charger likes to have as much exhaust diameter as possible.
Great observation. If you get the PPA right the first time it wouldn’t matter though right? Now if you’re trying to reverse-engineer it, then yes, totally agreed.
I saw the math part of the header build in Hot Rod a whole bunch of years ago. I wish the Hot Rod staff had collected all the tech articles from the magazine and published them as a series of books. They would be most useful.
I love this series...great platform. Please recommend and link additional reading on the subject. You’re making it easier to buy from Summit.
Hi, this is really one of the best summit quick flix I've seen. Norm is absolutely the right guy. I've seen a couple of other vids from Norm and there just simply awesome. Congrats Norm!!
Thank you, Claudio Vasquez!!!
Excellent information, helps me decide how large to build the headers on my 415CID small block.
Primary pipe area = (3000 x 22.2) / 88200
Primary pipe area = 0.7555 inches square
Doing some more math I used 0.040 for the wall thickness for my mild steel circular tubing. The formula for the area of a circle = pi x radius x radius; and I pulled the wall dimension out.
This man is smart and communicates his theories with pinpoint precision. Thank You, Sir.
got it i missed a lot of steps there but now i got the formula and realize that i need to convert to cubic inch for it to work (duh). thanks for taking time to explain it i think i needed to see it with my application plugged in to understand it. thank summit!!
Thank you! Glad we could help. Let us know if you have any questions.
Absolutely most informative video I've ever seen about tube diameter. How would you figure the math on a stepped header application. I run tri-y stepped headers?
this was the most usefull video i ever saw on youtube, thanks...
Hi Kasra Gharaei,
Thank you! Please let us know if you have any questions or video suggestions. Thanks for watching!
I plugged the 4900 RPM that you supplied into the formula and come up with a theoretical PPA (primary pipe area) of 2.61 inches square. Doing the math for the surface area of a circle and using 0.040 inch for the wall thickness I have a 1 -7/8 inch primary tube outside diameter coming in at 2.53 inches square and a 2.0 inch version coming in with 2.94 inches square. I would use the 1 -7/8 inch set unless you plan on a dramatic change in displacement and/or peak torque. Hope this helps good luck!
The math is wrong for tube area;
1 5/8" he didn't subtract any wall thickness.
1 3/4" & 1 7/8" he only subtracted the wall thickness once (.080") if that is the thickness of the tubes..he should have subtracted .160".
1 5/8" OD pipe with .080" wall thickness has an area = 1.686" (( 1.625 - (.080*2))= 1.465ID /2 = .7325 for the radius, squared = .53655625 * PI (3.14159) = an area of 1.6856 square inches.
1 3/4" OD tubing (.080 wall) = 1.986 square inches
1 7/8" OD tubing (0.80 wall) = 2.31 square inches
JerseyMikeP Thank you, I thought my senility was showing! This is exactly what I got. I am still having trouble with the size I need for my peak torque.
JerseyMikeP You’re a towel
Dear Eggiman930.
I‘m sorry, I did not understand… Is the mentioned 1.6L displacement the displacement for the entire engine or the displacement of the single cylinder? Or better yet, what is the total engine displacement and the number of cylinders regarding the engine in question?
Let me know, I’d like to help.
Good stuff... Us motor heads love all the info we can get
Thank you for getting rid of the sales engineering this was very well done keep up the good work.
Awesome tech, please more vids like this!!
Thank you sir, I appreciate the feedback.
Though we’ve not compared them side by side, they are most probably different considering the chassis’ of the cars have changed completely. The reason you are having trouble finding Shorty’s for your application is because that car has ample room for a long tube and they respond so favorably to long tubes.
Dear Roman,
Sorry for the delay. Primary tube diameter is used to enhance the amount of torque developed at the peak torque RPM. That’s why knowing the actual or theoretical RPM where the peak in torque occurs is built in to the equation.
Do you know the actual RPM or the theoretical RPM where your 350’s peak torque occurs? Let me know.
3400 rpm peak torque is 300 ft/lbs , 4300 peak hp is 228 to rear wheels
I tried 1.25 inch OD and got 1.075 inches square for the pipe area (above), remember we are trying to solve for primary pipe area. Then 1.125 inch OD which yielded 0.86 inches square; followed by 1.0625 inch OD which got me very close with 0.76 inches square. So it looks like a 1 -1/16 inch OD tube with a wall of 0.040 inches is your theoretical primary pipe diameter for your particular single cylinder displacement and peak torque RPM.
I hope this helps; let me know what you think.
A good teacher fist teaches the definition of important, pertinent words and acronyms in alphabetical order, then proceeds in an orderly step by step manner including an orderly, step-by-step diagram or formula listings, in chronological order with simple clear explanations of each. This is followed by simple to solve formulas with round number plugged into the formulas so the students can clearly and easily focus on the formula in a meaningful manner. When the student clearly understands all of the aforementioned, then the student can begin solving problems or questions which require mathematical computations . Therefore, I agree with Garth Giggity who posted the Einstein quote; which I will herein expand on as follows: "if a person cannot explain something simply, in an organized and proper chronological order, they don't a.) understand it well enough and b.) they don't know how to teach". Students learn best by progressing from rote to skill then to understanding, and finally to comprehension.
Skipping any step can cause confusion in a student's little grey cells which result unsatisfactory results, whether it is getting a good grade in a class or when building a combustion engine or an electric motor. By the way, a vehicle that runs on fuel has an engine - not a motor - motors are powered by electricity.
How do we calculate muffler size. I am making a gokart and so i need the muffler size. Since i am participating in an event i need to show the calculations also. Plz help
QUESTION PLS HELP.
if im doing exhaust piping fully 3" and in the middle reduce to 2.5" and then increased back to 3'" again towards the back end (tips), does this mean the whole flow is changed to 2.5"effect or 3" .
or for example i want full 3"piping but im missing a 3" flange so i reduce one small part to 2.5"just for the sake of using 2.5"flange. but the rest is back to 3".. NOTE that one flanged part is reduced to 2.5" .
can you please explain the effects. ty
I agree with Scott. The 1cylDisplacement needs to be on top of the line. Unless the rules of math have changed since I went to school.
how did you calculated the length of primary pipe? also please help me with my engine. I have EX500 engine of Kawasaki ninja and I'm using it for my formula racing car . will you please give me the calculations for primary and collector length ?
sir can i get the reference of the formula that you have used for calculating header pipe diameter. if possible please share reference with me
Laid down a good foundation. Cheers.
anyone
how would u work out peak torque rpm for a stepped header?
thanks
What can I do to help my lower end torque ? I have 2in fenderwell headers with 3.5 outlet. Can I build a collector to help keep the speeds up. Also the primary tubes are 42 inch long & I'm running a stroked big block mopar and looking at near 600 hp.
So smaller and longer helps low rpm and vice versa. Sweet!
great job Norm. I'm going to do a feature on Holleys for the Australian market on CZcams any advice would be appreciated
Regards Smithy
Great video, great information. Raymond Boudreaux, P.E.
Clarise Boudreaux ,
Thank you, Clarise!
hi there how do you computer for the 1 cylinder displacement? supposed i have a 4 cyl 1600Cc engine? do i divide 1600 with 4 ?
Does this formula work for single and multiple turbo diesel engines also?
OK. So PPA = PTRPM / (88200 x 1 Cyl displacement).
Area = (OD (-) total wall thickness) x (3.14 x radius squared)? Am I on the right track? Thanks.
This formula is set up for cubic inches or better yet inches cubed.
Is this how one can tune for peak performance at desired rpms? Or is this how one would enhance the constant performance curve of an engine? I just got a small block 350 engine, so this really helps since I am new to this and eager to learn. Thanks
I'm having a hard time figuring this equation for my displacement and peak torque rpm. i took my peal torque rpm which 2500 and divided it by 88200 and multiplied it by one cylinder displacement of 364.25cc (its a small engine 1.6liter) and got 10.3245 do i move the decimal over? and get 1.03 i don't understand the 5k thing . my peak torque is 81lb at 2500
What would be the best primary tube OD for a 2012 SS L99 Camaro? Was looking at a 2-1/2 in with a collector of 3 in. With the exhaust of 3 in all the way out. Want the best hp output. Please Help.
So what size primaries do i need on a 393 ci Ford Windsor with a solid roller cam .680 lift 258/268 duration at .050 and a 108 lobe center with a max RPM of 7,000? I am running AFR Renegade 220 heads with a compression ratio of 12.3 to 1 and a Super Victor intake and a 850 Mighty Demon carb. This will be a drag car that i plan on spraying 200 - 250 HP of nitrous.
Hi Norm, I was just trying to do the numbers for my 327 cu.in engine. Is it possible that there might by a mistake on your whiteboard? 2,07 in2 for the 1 5/8" tube seems to be considering the OD instead of the ID. Shouldn't the PPA consider ID instead of OD?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Take care,
Claudio
That’s why he said you subtract the wall thickness x2 , which gives you the inside diameter
Hi, thanks for taking the time here @williamhamil9860. If you do the math, the 2.07 in2 is the result of a 1.625 OD tube, divided by two results in 0.8125, squared would be 0.6601, then multiply by pi, its result is what is written on the whiteboard. So the wall thickness was not substracted in the example there. Watch out.
So correct result for the 350ci and that 1 5/8” header (with a 18 gauge tube) would be peak torque at 3690 rpms
Hi guys.
This link explains in more detail, and these are the formulas. For street motors.
Peak rpm (torque)= ppa*88200/individual cylinder displacement
Ppa=peak rpm torque*indiv cylinder displacement/88200
books.google.com/books?id=yEe6nll_wdEC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&ots=fqPa5LAunF&focus=viewport&dq=peak+torque+rpm+x+1+cylinder+displacement&output=html_text
For example 1.25 inch OD pipe (a circle) minus the wall thickness twice (2 x 0.040 = 0.080)…so, 1.25 inches minus 0.080 = 1.17 my corrected inside diameter… so, 1.17 inches / 2 = 0.585 inches for my radius. Now 0.585 x 0.585 x 3.14 = 1.07458 inches square.
I ordered the 1 5/8 shortys for a LS swap in a 35 coupe. I did not know this. I am tight on room for my steering shafts. The smaller size will help with that.
Great video ! To your calculations, are you suggesting a short header will have more torque it it leads to smaller collector per say 1 7/8 to a 2" than a long tube header 1 7/8 to a 3" collector
Depends on output of engine. Hi hp & tq the answer is hell no, a stock street engine hell yes but too a point.
Actually I believe he's backwards on this, long tube headers tend to outperform shorties across the board, the higher torque of a shorty sacrifices hp on the top end.
this probably the most in depth im gonna get on youtube
Tailz99!,
Thank you! Please let us know if you have any questions.
Summit Racing there was a mathematical question down below.
What is the best pipe size for my 3 cylinder car?
I have a 1.4 liter turbo charged 4 cylinder car that has a complete down pipe through exhaust and muffler of 2.5 inches, mandrel bent. I would like to know if 2.5 inches is enough for my 205 WHP and 257 FT/LB of TQ to the wheels. It is a single pipe. My redline is 7k. 83 cubic inches. my guess it that peak torque is around 2k rpm.. This car is modified. It was suposedly at peak torque from the factory at 1850 Rpm's. When it was stock it had 140 bhp and 150 ft/lbs of base torque. That is 120 WHP..
The math for find Primary tube area PPA is also incorrect:
It should say, (TQ peak rpm * 1 cyl. displacement) / 88,200
EVEN THIS WOULD BE WRONG CHECK WITH UNITS
Units.....What are you talking about??? Standard-inches
How is it wrong? IF you think so, post what it should be?
unit for cyl dispacemnt was inch3(cubic inch) multiply with rpm(rotational per minute ) how it gives area(square inch)??????
The Constant takes care of that, it is a # that comes from...
-the ideal peak velocity of the gas through the pipe
- The fact that the cylinder only fires once every 2 rotations
- the conversion of the rpm's into rotations per seconds to match the gas velocity which is in ft/second
- and converting the Flow from ft/sec in to inches
JerseyMikeP I was about to say hahaha
Now if you had those tuned length headers put on, ie: each size, i bet my life the difference in power would be so little that in the car you really would not notice it,especially after a tune for each one, so the most important fact is this, if you had a 350 chev engine which can rev out to over 8,000 RPM then what you need to go over 1/ 7/8 " DIA headers i dont think so, because its all about when your peak torque comes in and ends nto how far your engine will rev out too ?
Also if you have a street driven car like say the new Holden Chev SS which has a 6.2 lt engine and also considering everything under the bonnet which can get very hot and also gets in the way, then you can only do so much as far as the design of those tuned length headers, if you have not restrictions under the bonnet then no worries at all, then you would have the collector of each header pipe start out in the same direction as each exhaust exit angle and then mandrel bend the pipe so to fit and collect at a point to fit under your engine bay and not touch anything and more importantly easy access to spark plugs, other wise like most companies out there they simply copy each others designs and thats what is on the market right now, in australia and overseas as well ?
I didn't know Bill Clinton worked for summit racing NICE!
Wrong video that was the heads video.
@@marklowe7431 🤣
😂
😂
Not only that he's measuring the optimal size of a hole
I converted the single cylinder displacement of 364.25 cubic centimeters over to the common units of the formula - inches. The formula works with displacement in cubic inches all the way down to square inches for surface area and even inches for primary pipe diameter.
Plugging you in, I have single cylinder displacement at 22.2 cubic inches and I used your supplied 3000 RPM to finish the equation and solve for the primary pipe area and then subsequently the primary pipe diameter.
what would be the best size for honda accord 2.0 lt vtec head and the ruuners how long i want to use it for drag. i would be so glad sir if you will reply to this comment thank you sir
Hi jm apolintisima,
As stated in the video, so much depends on the size availability of header tubes for your car as well as the camshaft that will be used since it determines the RPM range that you’ll be operating in.
so what would be the pro's and con's of using the stock tubing size on a slightly modified motor?
grn dragon,
Can you give our tech department a call? 1-330-630-0240. We need some additional information from you. Thanks for watching!
I've never thought of customizing tube diameter and length to RPM, I always thought "go big, bigger is better!".
Hi, why is the constant for the Peak Torque RPM equation a value of 88,200?
Hi Dashel Perera,
The 88,200 is a mathematical and physical constant. Constants are based upon the formula involved and units of measurement being used. I took a quick look around and could not find a more definitive answer. Taking a poke at this and knowing what we know it would appear that the constant might and I say might be based upon some factor of diameter or radius, swept area and then depending on how it was derived perhaps a square-root or cubed-root. Sorry I could not be more specific.
If you run down the actual formula used to derive the 88,200 please send it my way along with the proper citation.
Thanks in advance.
Norm
Why would i want to make more torque at peak tq? Wouldn't it be more beneficial for performance to have the headers tuned above peak torque and use long primary, like 32"?
I have very mild 302 combo, peak torque at 3400RPM with stock headers, so i was thinking 1-3/4" long tubes.
Many variables play a role in pipe diameter and length, cylinder head flow rates and port sizes, engine displacement, camshaft design, compression, vehicle application, etc. But in general, a smaller diameter primary creates good midrange torque but drops off at higher rpm. In contrast, the larger primary adds more high-rpm power at the cost of low-speed torque. Primary pipe length will also influence an engine's power curve. The primary-pipe diameter establishes the peak torque position, changing the pipe length will pivot the output curve around that peak torque point. Longer tubes usually will increase power below peak torque while cutting power above peak torque. Shorter tubes affect the engine in exactly the opposite way, cutting midrange torque in favor of increasing top-end power.
Intake and exhaust systems can also be tuned to different engine speeds, expanding, or narrowing the overall torque curve from varying the intake and exhaust systems dimensions.
For more information on choosing header size, visit the Summit Racing help center. help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4797/kw/header%20calculator
would be nice to be given some idea of where 88,200 came from
At what RPM does your peak torque occur? And will this change in the future? Let me know which one you want us to plan for and we will get you a tube size :)
What exhaust tube and headers should i run on a 408 stroker?
what do you mean that 88,200 is your constant? pls explain
2300cc 4 stroke ,Peak TQ wanted @7k so primary diameter from inside would be?
Hi Mohamed Nabil,
We need some additional information. Do you mind giving our tech line a call? 1-330-630-0240. We look forward to your call. Thanks for watching!
Its hard to say, tube length is specific to engine size & vehicle application. Give us a call and we’ll help you pick something out. 1-330-630-0240
First, 1-5/8" is 2.07 but the other two are wrong; 1-3/4" = 2.40 & 1-7/8" = 2.76
Next, the second formula is incorrect; PtRPM x 1 cyl. Displacement / 88,200 = PPA
Finally, an alternative formula to pi r squared is Diameter x Diameter x 0.7854
(Example: 4.00 x 4.00 x 0.7854 x 3.480 x 8 = 349.85 (350))
i have oversized my piston, done port and polish should i change my headers? a 1.5 liter engine turned out to be 1.6 liter output right now, is there a need to increase the pipe diameter of my headers>?
meowtrox1234, The formula does use single cylinder displacement as the rule. Considering the changes that you’ve mentioned I understand that your displacement has increased. Keep in mind that your Peak Torque RPM may now be lower than it was previously, reason being that as displacement increases the RPM peak for torque and subsequently the RPM peak for HP tends to decrease. This is a pretty good rule as long as the other variables remain constant and unchanged.
My hunch is that you are going to stay with your existing primary tube diameter; I would suggest that you run through the formula and see how things may have changed for you. Let me know what your findings are - good luck.
hi there again i would like to clarify how do we get the individual cylinder measurement. do we have a formula for this? supposed i had an oversized piston from 1.5 liter? to an output of an equivalent to a .1,6 liter? how do we go about this sir?
what about stepped tube headers ?
so a 4.6l would require somewhere around 1.99in^2 primary tube headers for 5k torque
Hi vknb 23,
We have a few questions for you, can you give our tech department a call? 1-330-630-0240.
This is the voice I hear when shopping at Acme.
i agree and very detailed on how he explains the facts.. yet he says.." ummm" a lot..
Uhhh More than a lot I’d say
410 lb ft torque at 4900 rpm for the 2012 SS L99 Camaro.
305sbc with 1.5" primaries peak at ~3400rpm, works for me
i thought 1 5/8 was to small now i see it is perfect as my peak torque will be at 4400rpm
The two formulas do not jive. Not sure which one is correct but in the first one the constant (88,200) is on top and the single cylinder displacement is on bottom. In the second one they are both on the bottom. This can not be correct.
I thought I knew math. My area calculations came out different from yours then I have no idea how you ended up with the peak torque from the area measurements you displayed. I will look for a better explanation
*Only 18* 👇👇👇
397531.loveisreal.ru
HOW U GET 88200???
"...hopefully all the spent combustion gasses to be evacuated from that cylinder.." *EGR valve laughs diabolically*
best size for a 69 corvette 427 big block .. ? Thank you
Hi Ernesto,
Can you please give our tech line a call? 1-330-630-0240. We need some additional information from you. Thanks!
Probably a two inch primary tube unless you want very high rpm peak torque. I ran a eight thousand rpm peak horsepower 406 cubic inch engine which meant two and a eighth inch primaries which benefit only above six thousand rpms
First, I want to start out by saying that I love Summit for my 1977 Corvette! But some constructive criticism is that you keep distracting overly loud intros out of the video. Additionally, distracting words like "uh, and like" reduce the learning when you are teaching Math. Lastly, the only diameter I found on summit for my 77 350sb was 1 5/8". Thanks for the videos though!!!!
Are these measurements based on i.d. Or O.D.
Must be OD as he subtracted wall thickness.
What units should be used for cylinder displacement? Cubic Inches? CCs?
How many times have you said uh?
I don't get why just put the largest pipe you can on if its about moving exhaust out? get some 5" diesel pipes on there.
Not for the lehman but very informative
Why does he say “theory “? Do we not know by now the exactness of the internal combustion design ?
what the batter for trail blazer. 4.2L
Alwa7sh Kuwaity ,
Can you give our tech line a call? 1-330-630-0240. We need some additional information from you. Thanks!
Summit Racing ok , but Is there a service to the international shipping to Kuwait
So if I understand this correctly on a 440 1 5/8 = 3319 Rpm, 1 3/4 = 3511 Rpm, 1 7/8 = 4057 Rpm. On a 505 1 5/8 = 2892 Rpm, 1 3/4 = 3059 Rpm, 1 7/8 = 3534 Rpm.
CORRECTION: White board should read - (Peak torque RPM x 1 cy displacement) 88,200=PPA
Norm, your is jacked. If your PTRPM equation is correct, manipulating for PPA = (PPRPM x displacement)/88,200
Everytime he says "uuuhhhhhm" take a drink
God, I wish this was in metric!
top drawer.
So how many iterations does it take to nail it down? You use a peak Tq rpm value for an unknown exhaust to design your new headers. Then you put your new headers on to find you changed peak Tq rpm to recalculate and find you need a different size tube......😂😂😂. I’m thinking the ppa doesn’t dictate the peak Tq rpm!?! Whole lot of other factors like head flow and valve timing events!
1.6l thats the entire engine the single displacement for one cylinder is 364 cubic centimeters.
So what length ??????????
i dont se where he talks about how to calculate primary header pipe lenght? ore am im missing something?
"that four stroke event"...
You didn't do the second equation correctly when solving for PPA. If you want to solve for PPA based on the first equation you would multiply PtRPM X 1cl displacement and divide by 88,200.
This is a regular mindfuck
Sorry couldn’t work out the maths. I got a 6L want power as low as possible.
2 1/8 " on ddc if you smaller you lose power