Southwest TAKEOFF ON CLOSED RUNWAY | Vehicles Have to Run Away!
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
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METAR KPWM 250951Z 29005KT 10SM FEW100 16/14 A2972 RMK AO2 SLP063 T01610139=
PWM 06/168 PWM RWY 11/29 CLSD EXC XNG AND TAX THU FRI MON TUE WED 0230-0945 2406200230-2407310945
So how big a deal is this? At least an interview by FAA and his company?
I like your funny words, magic man
@@goutvols103 Southwest has ASAP. They're going to get talked to and possibly taken offline and retrained. They will not get violated.
It is hard to believe that people are saying that NOTAM is difficult to read. Shocking. This is the state of the airline industry. Very clear NOTAMS cannot be read and pilots cannot talk on the radio properly…..
Them not monitoring CTAF is almost as dangerous as taking off on the closed runway
Worse than that, he was supposed to be broadcasting on Tower frequency as a Unicom until the tower opens.
Right and then when they said they departed at :45, if that was even the case, that would mean they didn’t talk to tower.
It seems like the pilot was “maybe aware” of when the runway was to open and knowingly knew that he was cutting it down to the very exact minute of opening relying on everyone’s time being synchronized to the minute and no problems happening with the runway work crew. Or else the pilot was just oblivious and just trying to CYA, both could lead to something very bad happening.
@@Mentaculus42 He also clearly communicated runway 29 to ATC and ATC did not correct him.
Shared blame.
@@jonathanbott87it isn’t centers job to check notams for local airport for the pilot
"That's not what we're showing, but ok" boy, that's how you end up with the FAA holding a pair of scissors and asking to see you pilots license
Time to get a new Timex.
"Did he just take off from a closed runway?"
"Yes"
AFP95 confirmed. Welcome to Steam Edition.
I just lol’d hearing his voice say that. “Can confirm” 😂
The peanut gallery
shuttle status engage
"Let me run the numbers on that one Sauce Boss and I'll get back to you."
apparently all the people on steam edition got their commercial licenses?
Swa: Well obviously the runway wasn’t closed if we took off from it.
Anything can be a runway at least once, right?
Something like that, yes.
Great job once again putting this all together Victor! It adds a LOT of clarity to the situation.
Agreed Juan. Victor does a great job as always. Also enjoyed your post about it. Thank you both for your excellent content!
So what's the outcome Juan? SWA wasn't on the correct frequency and took off without T-O clearance?
Glad to help, Juan!
Thank you very much for your Debriefing of this Incident, too!
@@VASAviation good job creating content for JB, going to bring in a nice penny.
Brickyard 5760 was so surprised that they were just vanished.
It's a new teleport capability. On-time metrics are guaranteed to hit 100% every time!
I wouldn’t want to hang around either. 😂
He decided he didn’t want to share airspace with them so he disconnected from Vatsim.
If it was 5:45 when he took off then he should have takeoff clearance from tower. If it was before 5:45 the runway was closed. He knew what he was doing.
Indeed. It isn't a coincidence that the closure ends at the same time the tower opens. They did that precisely to avoid problems, but Southwest had other ideas...
Indeed, exactly.
Yes my thoughts too. He painted himself into a corner on that one.
just complete reckless stupidiy all around
Yeah, they're liars. Flying SWA is basically the modern equivalent of getting in a cab with a driver who's mixing a wild turkey and lime while he's taking you to the --- WHOAH I DIDNT EVEN KNOW WE WERE ON A BRIDGE. GERONIMO, AMIRITE!???!!!
My home airport and I was listening on my ICOM. Southwest was not on CTAF, they were communicating on Boston Center 128.2, the frequency who gave them their IFR clearance and hold for release instructions. They did not communicate any ground movements on CTAF 120.9
I did not hear any comms at all
Did or can you check 121.9 at that time too? It’s really strange not to make traffic calls. It’s a busy airport during the early morning push. And the sun is up.
That Boeing should be capable of four different frequencies. And of recieving 3 of those 4.
BOS CTR,
airport local/UNICOM freq,
ATIS.
And it can transmit on 2 of them. 1 pilot talk to bos, one talk to airport local.
Not making traffic calls is a huge and dangerous blunder and completely illegal . Not optional and receiving your clearance is only an IFR clearance. Unbelievable mistake from the SWA if they truly made no calls on CTAF.
I work on this airfield. Unfortunately it is a regular occurrence at PWM to see airliners depart and arrive without a single CTAF call. Seeing landing lights approaching while you’re working on and near runways is very unsettling. We are diligent about making CTAF calls but not all professional pilots see it as necessary. This is very dangerous.
It’s required . Not their call to make
@@deanward7789 it's not required by FAA regs. Maybe company policy (it should be), but not a legal requirement.
@@deanward7789 Its actually not....but it SHOULD
@@FlightX101 wow . Didn’t know there wasnt a reg on this .
"You risked people's lives"
"Meh..that's not what we were showing."
Lol. Exactly.
As a pilot who is meticulous in ensuring I do my job properly to protect myself, my employer, paying customers, and other users of the national airspace system, this event grinds my gears more than any other I can think of.
I can almost forgive missing the NOTAM in their paperwork, but they should have heard it on the AWOS, and been tuned to the CTAF before takeoff.
@VASAviation BTW, if you look at the previous 2 weeks flight tracking, this SWA flight number departed the 29 runway before the 0945 opening 3 other times.
Oh the FAA is gonna love that.
If no one else is using it, why can't he have his own personal runway?
@@MeerkatADV yeah, and they probably did not file safety reports for the previous deps… i dont wanna fly with them.
And that's complacency for you folks. Got a truck running up and down the runway checking for debris left over from construction, etc....gets ran over by a plane while turning off to clear the runway. When you wonder "how does this kind of thing happen?" this is how.
Doesn’t mean the runway was notam’d closed the other times
It's time for the FAA to slap some violations on the pilots involved and Southwest Airlines. SWA seems to be riddled with get-there-itis and making huge mistakes lately.
Very lucky ops in the vehicle was paying attention.
"were"
@@rdbchase Actually, that is a regional thing. People in the western part of the states tend to use “was” instead of “were”. It can be kinda cute sometimes too.
@@rdbchase Don't come on here being the gRamMaR police you woke.Nobody cares so go and carry on watching the channel on religion and get brainwashed.
@@TitaniumTurbineI ignore the wokes.👍
@@jamie-hb8gy No such word.
The pilot was awfully flip about taking off from a closed runway.
An attitude that’s going to get people hurt or worse. It’s only a matter of time.
I have zero respect for the attitude displayed by CA. Staggering.
Did you want him to cry?
@@JimNortonsAlcoholism No, I wanted him to show some humility cuz he f’d up. It’s not difficult.
@@JimNortonsAlcoholism we want him to stay as bad of a pilot as he is to put more people in danger, fuck protocols or erros, why improve from them when u can just dismiss them....is that better for you?
That pilot in 3516 is such a dork I love it lmao.
MAGICAL.
Your icon + comment is cracking me UP!
This is your daily dose of another close call
Calling this a close call is a massive stretch.Nobody was in any actual sort of danger at any point.
Vehicle driver on runway was awake unlike the Southwest pilot .
@@CaptSugmanwe found the SWA crew
@@CaptSugman And the Vehicle Driver? Good Situational Awareness and Good Luck that he just had left the Runway. But that was not the Merit of the Southwest Pilots!
And if they did hit the truck, or make some sudden input to avoid it, or encounter FOD, then the SWA flight was in danger too.
The ops guy was very professional about clearing the runway.
3:51 Brickyard 3516 would be a nice radio host 😂
😄
Republic pilot here who’s landed at PWM many times, a lot of construction at this airport, if the weather was poor, this was an absolute recipe for disaster
The taxiway alpha project has been happening for months at this point. It’s the same thing every night until 5:45. 11/29 closed
"Magical!" Lmao
Was this guy literally just monitoring Boston Center? The vehicle warned him, the TOWER warned him......I mean sheesh
Lots wrong with SWA. Never used CTAF even knowing supposedly about closed runway possibly with people on it and hopefully saw Brickyard moving around. Never confirmed time or runway status with Boston claiming to believe he had a whole 3 minute window since runway planned to reopen. The tower opened at 05:45 after SWA departed. Had the crew the believed the time was 05:48 then they should called the tower controlling airport. Busted.
Ok folks, Southwest's number of at-fault pilot incidents is now unacceptable. As a 30 year airline pilot, I now don't want to fly Southwest. What on earth is going on there in operational management?
DEI hires, woke agenda being pushed, management more concerned with putting feelings over everything else ?
apparently a lot of bloody marys...
A SWA flight recently was set up to do a visual landing on a state highway… only realizing their error when ATC issued a low altitude alert, 11 miles away from the airfield…
Yikes…
Seeing the same attitudes on the GA side...rules are for other people to follow. Hell, the roads too for that matter.
Fly Southwest on a Boeing plane. What's the worst that could happen?
Love the little service vehicle graphic bookin out of the way.
hello, Zaphod Beeblebrox!
Aviation is a team sport. Keep your head on a swivel, and double check your radio frequencies. We make it safer by working together.
The blame is on the SWA crew entirely for not adhering to ATIS as far as runway status goes. If you know that traffic is on a certain frequency while tower is closed, USE IT!
There was no ATIS. That was an AWOS/ASOS.
@@johnaclark1 I stand corrected. Does the AWOS/ASOS carry more weight or not?
@@CodeBlue_EMT-P It is simply an automated weather station that broadcasts the weather over a frequency. At a tower airport the ATIS is taken down when the tower is closed and the AWOS is broadcast over the ATIS frequency. When the controller leaves for the night they can add a recording to play at the end of it if they so desire. In this case they did and they noted the opening time for the tower and the closure of 11-29.
How ironic. 4805 is the same flight number as the KLM 747 in the Tenerife airport disaster.
Don't tell me that jerkwad got reincarnated 😮
An IFR departure release is not takeoff clearance. Center does not issue takeoff clearances. You either get takeoff clearance from Tower, or you listen and talk on CTAF. I'm not a huge fan of the 1500-hour rule, because hundreds of hours of pattern work in a Cessna 172 is not especially relevant training for airline pilots, but one thing you do typically learn via this career path is the use of CTAF at untowered fields. Whereas the flood of military aviators fleeing for high-paying airline jobs ASAP (for example) may not have that experience.
Military aviators are well versed in the use of CTAF. It's taught all through undergraduate pilot training. In my current aircraft type, we go to uncontrolled fields all the time. "We didn't raise him like that." Pure laziness on the SWA crew's part.
Your concern for the competency of military aviators is at level of comedy that you simply cannot fathom. The irony is immeasurably thick and beyond your comprehension.
Thank you very much for picking this Incident up!👍 I was really waiting for it. It indeed clarifies what had happened. Openly said: So far as I can see it was Cowboy manner by the Southwest Pilots, not a misunderstanding: If he would have had a wrong clock showing .45 he should have contacted the Tower and pleased for a Takeoff-Clearance. - Fortunately nobody was hurt, but anyway: This shouldn´t happen.
Republic has good crews, I fly with them as much as possible. 3516’s departure was by the book. Southwest didn’t bother to go get the book.
That SWA crew is a potential danger. They are incompetent and or liars.
Truth, and should be reprimanded.
I’ll bet 5 bucks they showed departing right at :45 on their computer. I’ll only bet $5 though. He said “that’s not what we’re showing” which makes me believe that they’re showing a takeoff time of :45 or after on their computerized aircraft log.
@@Spyke-lz2hl the computer is irrelevant though, their ACTUAL roll time was :42, ADSB confirms that.
on top of that, SW literally said Runway 29, they missed that and cleared them anyways, then did a ooopsie and came to realize they cleared them onto a closed runway.
however, SW is significantly at fault here for not listening to CTAF and seeing, looking for the vehicles on the runway.
@CapStar362 it's not centers job
The tower cleared them and did nothing to stop them. Pilots are ultimately responsible, but this was a total failure at multiple stages. ATIS ignored, pilots messed up, tower allowed error, ground vehicle report ignored.
Captain Ron: Don’t worry. They’ll get out of the way. I learned that driving the Saratoga.”
Sounds like the pilot in the Southwest was quick on his feet with responding that it was just a clock issue. His clock is apparently 3 minutes faster than the airport. So either it was or he was trying to cover his ass. I believe, however, you have to wait for the tower controller to declare that the runway was open, which she did by announcing that arrivals and departures were on Rwy 29.
Well he was tuned to Center and not on CTAF or Tower apparently.
Regardless, they should have been on CTAF.
I agree ATIS said runway is closed, until a newer ATIS version or the tower opens this runway, it remains closed, regardless of their faulty clock. Not much to cover there 😂
Clocks are calibrated with GPS signal. Unless he looked at his wrist watch, the airplane clock should be giving the correct GPS hour.
He should have been talking to either CTAF (< 0545) or Tower (> 0545) and he was on neither. Clock issue or no clock issue, he didn't follow departure procedure.
Not convinced he ignored the radio calls and did what he wanted anyways based on the attitude he gave on the radio. Should be reported to FAA. What a moron.
I'm sure he will be a call from his friends at the FAA
The FAA is already aware of it, note the FAA quote at 5:09
The captain claimed he took off right at 5:45 when the runway opened, however he didn’t communicate with the tower, which also opened at 5:45. If I was the departure controller I would’ve asked him “if you took off at 5:45 Why didn’t you talk to the tower?”
Southwest owns about 75% of responsibility with this one.
They werent on the CTAF. They obviously listened to NOTAM/ATIS.
KPWM should own some responsibility that the closure markers should be absolutely last thing off.
Also: MAGICAL
I'd think if they want to make the timing, pull the marking at that end at :40 or so, then stay there till :44 ... hard to miss a vehicle right there!
Maybe even 100 percent. YIKES!
i mean, remove markers, drive on the runway to the other end (basically doing an inspection), remove markers there, that is about 5 minutes easily....
@@boahneelassmal For that matter, reverse the order and remove the departure end (based on current winds) markings first.
@@chrisschack9716 fair point
Remind me never to fly out so early that the airport is uncontrolled.
That SWA picked a baaaaad flight number for this sort of thing.
Including the ATIS and the previous Brickyard CTAF calls.... that was savage!!
It was an AWOS/ASOS, not an ATIS.
How did the flight crew "miss" this? If the tower and runway both open at the same time (5:45), why are you talking to Boston but no one at Portland?
Something tells me 3516 knew he'd be on VAS.
At both Portland and Bangor, my local airports, they are doing runway rehabilitation which means you have to be extra vigilant when the runway is closed/ which parts of it are closed and when. Not knowing that information or not communicating on the CTAF is disastrous. Close call.
Another class act example of Southworst airlines. Not monitoring CTAF and providing traffic calls, and the total lack of situational awareness of airport environment, is very troubling. Hey the other traffic is taking off 36 maybe we need to think about that. Followed by the lack of concern from the detached sounding pilot after he was made aware of the mistake makes this a must for investigation by the FAA.
"That's not what we're showing" - that's not what I wrote down to comply with myself 😆
This pilot was setting records, needed that Runway 29 departure for best route to Baltimore. Average flight time is 1:09 but this guy got it done in 1:04 . 6:47 AM arrival is legendary.
Babe wake up, weekly US close call just dropped
Even though they didn't announce it until :45, I guarantee you all the controllers in that Tower saw and heard this whole thing happen. 😂
Thank you for the video🙏
Just a hunch, but I'm thinking the crew made CTAF announcements on the incorrect frequency. This would account for the nocomms.
As to using a time machine to account for the 3 minute difference between actual takeoff time and the end of the runway closure, that might become a career limiting event for the crew unless they have something *really* good to back it up.
It was in the NOTAM. It was in the ATIS. He’s driving an aircraft full of passengers around an airport not communicating on CTAF. Technically legal but certainly not it prudent.
Then, he takes off on 29.
1. He could have had a tragic collision at the intersection with 36 if the departing aircraft departed a few moments earlier.
2. He could have collided with the ops vehicle further down 29 if they hadn’t been alert and left the runway in time.
That needs to be handled as a “possible pilot deviation”.
I was waiting for the "possible pilot deviation, advise when ready to copy a phone number" ...did that happen later or not at all?
Surprised that the takeoff clearance wasn't cancelled. Then realized that there was no takeoff clearance ...
Didn't ZBW16 give them clearance? Not a pilot here, I don't understand every detail, but seemed to me like that is who Southwest asked, and they gave them a clearance for something at least.
@@autarchprincepsThat was Center giving them an IFR release. The airport was uncontrolled at that time since the Tower was closed, so there are no take off clearances issued or needed. The Center guy is just responsible for the airspace around the airport, and has nothing to do with runways, etc. He’s likely in a room miles away. At an uncontrolled airport, pilots are meant to coordinate with each other on the CTAF or common traffic advisory frequency. Southwest here failed to do so, which is a definite no no.
@@MikeGranby Thx
@@MikeGranbytrue you are most definitely right about him being in a room miles away, Boston center is in Nashua NH if I recall correctly
So they never used the CTAF, departed a closed runway, then didn’t accept responsibility. If they knew they departed at :45, then they would have departed without talking to the tower, which is pretty much just as bad.
Indeed, exactly.
That's also the airport's fault. It's never a good idea to have a surface opening coincide with the TWR reopening. They're should be at LEAST a 10-15 minute overlap between the resumption of controlled airspace and the opening of the closed surface. The yellow X's would still have been deployed and all access to 29 would still have been barricaded. Fifteen minutes is plenty of time for pre-opening clean up at an airport like PWM.
"SWA4805, come on dowwwwnnn, you're the next contestant on The Pilot is WRONG!"
Exactly why i dont fly SWA or United...too many problems with the workers.
Was that Brickyard whispering? 😂
Cpt Leroy Jenkins going in on 28
Hubris makes the plane go boom
Me flying MSFS when people take off whatever direction they want on the runway..
Talk about an uncontrolled airport.
The flight management computer can display GPS time.
SWA sounds like a cowboy, hope he gets investigated
indeed.
Amazing audio and plane synchronization on the graphics as usual! Keep up the great work! Hopefully these will be used for some better training and discipline. Bravo!
For clarity for a few commenters who are confused: when an airport like this is "uncontrolled' that means there is not an Air Traffic Controller (ATC) actively managing the runways. The Southwest pilot communicated their intention to take off on runway 29 to "center" which is not responsible for verifying or controlling runways; Center controls the airspace and tells the pilot what altitude to go to, etc.
The pilots had a responsibility to announce their ground movements and takeoff intentions to everyone on 120.9, and didn't. This is 100% pilot error, there was no ATC mistake. They also apparently took off before the scheduled opening of the runway, although the pilot claimed after the fact that they didn't, but even if *were* on time, they still had a responsibility to announce their intentions. Just because a runway is scheduled to be open does not mean it's automatically clear. There's also a crossing runway in active use! What if another pilot is taking off on the crossing runway? What if someone's trying to land?
As a former airport ops guy, runways remain closed until handed back to the controlling authority or changed on NOTAMs. ATC and pilots use the pavement but ops vehicles own it and can close and reopen at their discretion. Shame on the southwest pilot for putting his own ego ahead of the vehicles on the runway and his passengers.
Ever since Southwest softened up their pilot requirements, they’ve been having too many close calls.
Pilot knew what they were doing.
That's even scarier.
Bad airmanship on Southwest’s part
Magical!
"..........but... ok..."
Great response!
I don’t get it: EITHER it was post 5.45, in which case SW would have been talking to the tower for clearance, OR it was pre 5.45, in which case they would not have been talking to the tower. Surely they can’t have it both ways: they weren’t trying to communicate with the tower, so they must have know it wasn’t yet 5.45.
@@gustafpeyron It opened at 5:45 - as you can hear in the Video.
Indeed, exactly!
the magic happened here 2:33-2:43
Still has to respect the runway closure as stated in the ATIS, right? The release from Center is only in regards to the climbout, not the takeoff clearance?
I thought they gave clearance for take off in more than three and less than five minutes? And they don't explicitly specify that the runway is closed on the call, especially since they apparently gave clearance to be on that runway. Idk the whole comms is throwing me off.
@@r.b.4009
And then the pilot is reading back wrong thing, am I understanding this correctly?
Typical Southwest, nothing has changed always in a hurry. Beat schedule for extra pay.
We found the Delta pilot, LOL!
SWA has an ASAP Program, therefore they will net get violated in the way a GA pilot would get violated. Was a mistake made yes. There could be many reasons how this happened. They had the incorrect CTAF freq in the radio and thought they were talking on CTAF. The FMC's could have had the incorrect time loaded. Which made them think they were good with the 0945z time. Just a thought.
Right at the top.
I’m not surprised at the pilots response. SMH. When he was planning to take off on a runway that was just opened yet he never made any calls to confirm that the opening was on time nor to confirm that it was open at the time of break release.
I used to fly in and out of Portland all the time, I could have sworn it used to be a 24Hr operation. That being said, the fact that ATIS said the runway was closed and they just assumed it was open and then use center for clearance to depart and never announced their depature is a major deviation.
Immediately apply for immunity!!🤣🤣🤣
Sounds like a fine from the FAA for *each occurrence* is really gonna add up
Yeehaww, ten gallon hats all round again 😂
It's all fun and games until you have to depend on aluminum's tensile strength versus a truck or another plane's wing.
FIRED!
Not that it makes any difference but why didn't those who tried to warn them, get on the other frequency and try to warn them?
That’s an excellent question. Brickyard was certainly waiting his turn to talk to Boston Center to get his departure clearance. He waited till SWA took off to say something.
If I have information Romeo why wasn't a closed runway on that prerecorded announcement and why didn't Romeo tell me!?
Romeo, Romeo, whereforth art thou runway closure info Romeo?
ATIS is only up when the tower is active.
Though, presumably a runway closure may be broadcast on an overnight recording, but it’s not guaranteed. It depends how long the closure was for, if it was scheduled ahead of time, etc.
Pilot really didnt care.🤔😳
Interesting comment from the cockpit: they knew that the runway opened at 5:45, and said the information they has was accurate, meaning the time shown in the cockpit was 5:45 or later.
Layman question: should the runway be marked or flagged as closed somehow while work is in progress?
It is probable that the Vehicle Driver had just removed the Closed Signs - it was three minutes before opening.
They weren’t talking to the tower, they knew exactly what time it was, they weren’t making CTAF calls, that’s a deliberate foul.
Yeup, if they thought the runway was open, then they would have been talking to tower, and if they thought tower wasn't up yet, then the Runway wasn't open yet either.
The question is why the tower is part time at an airport that has quite a few big iron utilizing it.
also, the clocks in the flight deck are GPS synced, accurate to nano seconds
I think what confused the Southwest was the "within 3 minutes" IFR clearance.
I am not even doing these kind of things in Microsoft Flight Simulator.
“But, OK.” Sheesh!
I've been watching this and all other air-related channels over the last decade. And I have to say since 2023 we have so many "closed calls" that beats what I have watched for the last 10 years. What's going on with aviation?
Vax brain
Probably about the same thing going on before but now if you fart someone puts it on CZcams.
I've heard reduced staffing--not enough qualified hires stepping up to replace experienced retirees, for whatever reason.
The far bigger issue here is the crew not communicating on CTAF while another aircraft is announcing everything. You learn to communicate your intentions on almost your first lesson
That is the bigger issue than the pilots clearly not listening to the automated messages or reading than NOTAMs
Would it be practical for airports to have a device that would monitor for a transmission being keyed in a certain pattern (e.g. morse code Q (short-short-long-short) and transmit a station ID acknowledgment, and have as policy that pilots are supposed to use that to test radio functioning and tuning, and let anyone else on frequency know that they've just tuned in and might not have heard transmissions made before that? If that were an essential part of a pre-taxi check list, that would seem to plug a lot of holes in the Swiss Cheese Model.
Really dumb question here, but if there are multiple scheduled commercial departures before the official opening of the tower/control, why on earth don't they open the tower earlier??? Staffing concerns and all that, I'm sure, but it seems only sensible to have someone on site to manage the traffic.
Because Airlines will aways schedule earlier to beat the competition in to the big airports.
Void != valid
Yikes! Hope I survive my upcoming trip via Southwest.