My Mixes SUCKED Until I Learned This
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
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Oftentimes the simplest solution is also the best solution. If you find yourself trying complicated things to fix problems in your mix, maybe you skipped over this fundamental step?
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Bless up ..video them helpful..
First thing I thought of was to tell the singer to step further away from the input compared to everywhere else. I’m surprised people wouldn’t immediately go to that solution
Same. It's kind of obvious ...
Same here. It was literally the first thing that came to my mind.
Same here.
Same here. That was my thoughts exactly.
Same here 😂
Thing is, you can not always pitch your notes 100% if you do not sing loud enough, try it record yourself singing softly, medium and at a good loud volume, you'll see.
A lot of people like to argue this point untill you record yourself doing it and you hear yourself.... Just try it, you'll be surprised at the result, there is a reason why mic performance still is an art, and distance was one of them this not only controls the level hitting the ribbon but, the tallent was able to pitch correctly just because they are able to get enough air over the vocal cords.
Great point! I have that issue myself.
Joe, thanks for not selling us things, and encouraging us to get it right at the source. I've stopped using plugins, just using a small amount of outboard, and getting stuff right from the get-go, I barely have to mix at all, other than making a few extra creative choices. Finally getting the exact results i want, too.
I'm proud I got this right. I was almost thinking my solution was too simple and that having him back up would mess up the figure eight pattern or something. I was thinking it was a trick because backing up seemed so obvious.
As for why he couldn't sing quieter, I'm thinking it was an issue of technique or simply where the notes sat in his range.
Telling him to back up was one of my first thoughts. And probably the best scenario for this use case. It’s important to recognize that the ratio of direct to reflected sound will be different for him affecting his apparent distance on the recording. In a choral application it is probably ok, in a duet, the frequency response and reflections may be noticeable.
My thoughts exactly
I'm actually really psyched that I said to have him back up from the mic. I've never been to school for production or anything, just been recording for years with no direction. CZcams obviously has changed the "no direction" part, but still basically produce by myself and do all the recording, mixing,etc.
My answer to his issue as a producer would be to move the individual back away from the rest of the Ensemble. I think putting the sound source further away from the mic would correct the blend. Sometimes some folks are unable to control their own volume, so we need to help them. 😊
"Sometimes some folks are unable to control their own volume,"
While this is sometimes true, the actual need to sing at a good solid volume is to get the notes correctly pitched this depends on your vocal cords and the amount of air needed to correctly move them, I did say this above, and a lot like to argue this point calling it false until I tell them to record themselves at soft, medium and louder volumes, do not change your mic gain, simply step farther back each time you sing louder, there comes a point at which you start to correctly pitch and there also comes a point where you are just singing louder and this then can make you pitch falsely again. This is the nature of the beast, open up some thing like melodyne and see where your pitch falls each time, the results will surprise you...
It's crazy how the one thing that revolves around any part of mixing is volume lol. Whether it's EQ, compression, DEssing, panning or whatever. It's fascinating lol
10:35 - Fletcher Munson 👍
I (almost) had the right answer from the beginning. Here's my reasoning:
If you use multiband compression or dynamic EQ, you cannot possibly fix the problem because you would still hear that "lone" vocal sitting on the top of the mix because you compress the whole tenor ensemble, which he buries under his "lone" voice.
If he gets his own mic (close mic-ed) or is isolated in his own booth, it could be tricky to "put him back in the room" as in you lose the room's ambiance on his voice.
My assumption was either you place him closer to the center (closer to the bass signer(s)), which may or may not solve the problem by having him less in one mic but more in both mics, which could also be tricky to balance.
Backing him up in the room is a good solution, but I would be curious about the introduction of phase cancelation or comb filtering with the other tenors and the introduction of more room ambiance.
I was thinking that you might also be able to find a different spot on the floor like between the XY axis where maybe he wasn't singing right into a mic. Your way is easier, thanks, 🎸
Getting Joe's 'Home Studio Mixing' was the best money I've ever spent on anything music related. I've spent the last two years buying 'magic plugins', watching CZcams videos and learning how to navigate my DAW - but the pieces weren't coming together to translate to good mixes. Watching a pro move through his workflow - while explaining *why* he's doing what he's doing - and following along with him on my DAW with the included tracks was a game-changer. The Five Steps takes the guess-work out of the equation. Now, when I load a session and do the first listen, I know about 90% of what I need to do and how to accomplish it. From there, it's minor tweaking and adding a few plugins to individual tracks. I finished the course and I'm now working on the 50 bonus songs he included. I know this sounds like a million other testamonials - but it's all true. When you discover something that drastically improves your life, you want to tell everyone. So...I'm telling everyone.
Plus, you get to support a genuinely good guy.
Seems like a lot of bluegrass bands do this when surrounding a single mic, including stepping forward during a solo and backing up again
This is actually how pretty much all (non-classical) groups did it in the early pre-multitrack recording days!
Simple and brilliant!
Just got done CRUSHING a static mix thanks to this video! Thank you Joe!!
I've always understood that setting levels was important, but I didn't fully appreciate just how much a 1.5db lift can affect the tone of a track like the bass.
This video and the tip of adding vocals last made it fun and easy instead of confusing and tiring. I actually had *fun* mixing this song I've been stuck on for two weeks.
Again, thank you Joe for your videos and really taking the time to talk about *why* things are important so we can internalize them.
I think you nailed it Joe. I'm new at this (9 months in) and I think you just helped me a whole lot. I need to master the levels first before I start doing anything else. Really dial it in and take some time with it.
Yeah, having him back up was one of my thoughts.
I thought of the other potential solutions, which create new problems to be solved.
Another thing that I thought that you could have him stand all the way to one end of the semi circle, and then reduce the stereo width of the track by a little bit. That, in combination with him stepping back a couple of steps. However, you'd have to have the female furthest to the other end be moved a little bit inwards, a long the semicircle.
Just having him moved back a few feet is probably a better solution, though.
This is where the fun is. The simple salutation is to move the singer back. Plugins are a post production tool. You want to capture a great acoustic recording, its mic placement then adjust the guitar player.
When recording an ensemble, adjust the physical singers till you achieve the desired blend. Alas The Beach Boys the Four Freshmen. Capture the signal, then bring out the post production tools. Recording and mixing are two entirely different actions. Accomplish one, then the other.
I agreed up until your last two sentences. I think the point is that recording and mixing actually AREN'T separate. Everything is mixing in a way. You're mixing when you get all the vocalists' levels right. You're mixing when you arrange the parts the correctly. You're mixing when you choose sounds at the production stage. The problem is actually thinking of them as separate, imo.
OMG OMG OMG I GUESSED CORRECTLY!!!!!! (Truth be told, I had a friend who used to say my name to get my attention, then turn and walk away talking and I could NEVER hear her because ACOUSTICS DONT WORK LIKE THAT ... that was what I used to tell her...) But I was going to say, "play to his ego and make him feel like hes a solo artist and put him behind the group at just the right angle to balance the whole group out"...but I'm a SUPER beginner and figured I was incorrect. And I love this video because I learned this in 2003 when I went ADHD crazy trying to expand the sound of a poorly recorded song by running it through a bunch of different software (limewire) but when I finally learned that I just kept turning the wrong things up so high bc I like heavy bass that I kept muddling the sound in my ears.... ahaha.
Mistake number 1 is hanging out with people that answer "multiband compression" for everything.
As a hobbyst I really felt happy that I got right both answers. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, Joe! 👊🏼
Dolly Parton once was brought in to sing backups on a recording. and they had to put her in the very back of the room because she kept overpowering the rest of the ensemble.
Which song?
@@ignatzmuskrat3000 I don't know. Leland Sklar told the story on one of his videos. It was one of those impromptu "hey you wanna throw some backing vocals on this song" sorta thing.
@@brettmarlar4154 ah. Leland.
2:00 guess: maybe have the guy stand further back. If it's a higher part, sometimes it'll punch through. There also might be a natural EQ to some voices where it'll cut through better. If the other singers aren't singing loud and with confidence, get them to. Another thing to try is to give that singer monitoring. Sometimes a singer will be very loud if they can't hear themselves.
The last minute and a half of this video contains one of the most important lessons anyone attempting to mix music should learn. Once I learned to set my input levels properly at pre-mix and then do a static mix, I went back and remixed a couple of my older songs I mixed before my newly acquired skills and quickly realized just how important setting proper levels and establishing a static mix is. In my old mixes, it was easier to cover up my playing mistakes and limited playing abilities.😆 The remixed versions are clearer and much easier to hear the mistakes I made recording the tracks.
So we are on the same page with this. I would add in addition to backing up from the rest to also find the right fit for him in the stereo field. As far as mixing, my start up process is listening to the tracks, normalizing if necessary, editing, get a decent mix listening mix before adding plug-ins. I also set panning for the most basic expectations on drums and instruments but I don't go crazy with panning at this point.
My first solution was amazingly the 'correct' one. I have to do this myself, as I have quite a boomy voice (and singing quieter can adversely affect the actual performance in a negative way).
My second thought was to get him to sing off-axis, with a less direct vocal. I then dismissed it, as it may have a negative connotation to the L-R mix.
My third idea was to elevate him on a box/chair/whatever, as this wouldn't affect the L-R mix but would take him vertically off-axis.
Basically, every thing I thought of was with respect to girats - something I pay a lot more attention to, largely due to your videos. So, at least that part of your message is getting through... 😉
Reminds me of when Linkin Park was recording some gang vocals, and they had Chester off to the side on his own mic (with his back to the group) -- they were calling him "Outcast Boy" 😅 I learned so much watching their "making of" videos over the years!
I am FAR from a professional engineer but the very first thing that popped in my head was to get him to take a step back, but for reason I thought it was going to be something else . .
The solution is simple if your goal is to get a good, balanced recording and not to rely on "fixing it in the mix." Putting him in the background was my first thought, and also the option of placing him behind someone else to block some of the volume, but then you'd maybe lose some transients.
If your recording a group of singers into a pair of mics, and singing quieter doesnt help, then moving singers forward and back as needed to blend them together is the only way to fix balance issues. Cant fix balance issues in the mix with using just 2 mics for 7 singers at once.
That was my solution for your quiz. Probably from playing bluegrass in my younger days and the old saying about getting it right in the room.
Shockingly, I figured this out right away. (Must be learning something from Joe). However, my mixes still suck. Looks like I need more practice and, perhaps, a little more time with the 5 step mix guide.
Yeah, backing him up is a great idea. I also considered having him face the back of the room, but then he couldn't see the conductor...or having him wear a ski mask -- that could work! The LAST thing on my list was some signal processing.
As you do, I always try to get it right at the source. For me that means balanced in the room.
Most of my work has been film scores, so if the balance is right during the recording it means I don't have to move lots of faders during the mix. And that isn't because I'm lazy (although I AM), it's because the orchestra will sound bigger and more natural with fewer mics playing the leading role for balance.
The same idea applies to bands. If the players know they are doing a supportive, background part they should play it that way so that when they play the solo they can use a solo style and volume. There are many great examples of this with vocal duets -- Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers; Linda Ronstadt and Aaron Neville. They get it.
Thanks for the video, Joe!
Yes! Fix the mic input source (and EQ out the very low frequencies the mic picks up) then balance all the mics in the mix is a very good place to start. Just to comment on your story, getting the group to self blend makes it easier regardless of how many mics are used. 😉
once you finally got to the point, the things I learnt were that telling a loud singer to step back will help my mixes, also if I can't hear a bass just turn it up.
Joe... Ok, so what about your flashlight theory when recording Acoustic Guitar?? Wouldn't moving him further away be capturing more of the Room compared to everyone else?? I'm not trying to punch a hole in this I'm seriously curious..
Thanks Joe very helpful as always 🙌
I knew it was the tenor before he said anything. 😂 We’re loud.
My solution: move him further away from the mic. It's an age old principle of mixing a live band: someone playing an instrument and doing bvox usually needs their mic gained up a bit from lead vox, because they'll necessarily be further away from it. I cringe when I see someone mic check a guitarist/singer's mic by singing right into it. That's NOT how the actual singer will be using the mic.
Is there any way you can do a series on recording songs where you play and sing all the parts? Including finger played drum tracks? This is how i write and record. My studio is too small to fit more than 1 other person in and so I have to do everything. I'm quite sure there are a lot of people like me out there and we could all use some of your guidance. Love your show and I've been a long time subscriber.
I figured that out real quick
Love your videos, Joe. This makes perfect sense to me. Not so sure the plugin companies would be very happy with your advice though!
BTW, I would have pushed your buddy back instead of using technology too.
Hilarious. I wish you could have heard me yelling at my screen, "Have him back up!"
My secondary plan would be to locate the EQ band which most affected his voice and lower it a little, but that also risks affecting the tone of the other vocalists, which may overlap in that range, so unless there was a physical limitation on how far back he could go, that would be a last resort.
Do you typically hear the stuff that’s too quiet or too loud first?
Yay! I got this one right. I call it the "Louie Louie" method of mixing multiple instruments or voices. As you may know, The Kingsmen recorded "Louie Louie" with one microphone with all the instruments set up in the studio at different distances from the mic to get the correct balance.
That method is half a century older than "Louie Louie"! It's how all music was recorded until the advent of the electric microphone, when bands and singers were all positioned around a huge "reverse horn" that scooped up their sound and made a recording needle vibrate in an acetate or vinyl blank. And the technique continued well into the electric microphone age.
important stuff as usual. well done
I spend most of my time altering my sounds after I choose what vst or samples I plan to use before even playing any notes for recording.
Move him or the mics?
Edit: There you go lol. The source is always the easiest thing to change. Faders used to be backwards (pulling towards you was louder) because it mirrored the real world image of moving things closer to you or further away.
Tell him to move further back from the mic. Also, understanding the Fletcher-Munson curve helps with understanding the loudness of different frequencies and how they work together. If you want 250Hz to have the same level of perceived loudness as 1000Hz, you need to have it louder (by around 4dB from memory) in the mix.
Maybe move the louder singer further from the mics, or if there is any area of rejection on the mics, move that singer closer to there.
Stepping back from the mic would have been my first suggestion but doesn't his voice have to much roomsound then compared to the other singers close to the mic?
I can hardly believe that I got the right answers to the two questions (move the singer back...2nd clip a little louder). I guess I'm getting better at mixing than I thought I would.
I would have changed the one singer's position in relation to the mic, either further away and/or off the side a bit until his levels matched.
Back up! I knew it!
I would say make him stand further from the mics than everyone else? this would make him sound quiter but the wrong part would be he will sound thiner than the other singers, because mic proximity
I would have had him back up a bit (although that would affect the transients/plosives), or sing in a slightly different direction, like slightly away from the mic
It's funny and supposed to be kinda obvious since it's right there in the word we use to describe what we are doing.... MIXING. Not, slap on plugins and compression etc but mixing. What are the first thing that pops up in ones mind when you hear that term.... probably pushing faders to balance a bunch of different sounds ie MIXING. It's so simple and obvious yet somehow we lose track of that
Hi Joe I love your vidz. I need a little help. I have studio live 16.0.2 USB version along with Studio One. I have 15 audio tracks trying to route them on individual track by bussing them over to studio live. How do I create and save a mixdown of what I mixed in Studio Live to a stereo track like I would if I was doing it normal in Studio One. In Studio One I would just go up to menu and click export audio and be done with it. It's not allowing me to do this coming out of studio live because it's not being routed to a main on my computer. My brain is bleeding over this please help
Yup. Back up ....that was my guess from my own experience. I record with cheap and rather immobile recording equipment, so I would just step back a bit when too loud
Moving him was the first thing that came to mind.
Would have asked him to take a step back 🔙
I was sure you were going to say the answer was just to de-amplify the offending singer's track. I would think backing him up would mess with his tone.
First thing I thought was "step back", but doesn't it change his room sound?
I'm constantly turning the bass and guitar up and down to find that "sweet" spot with the drums HAHAHA I have been on a tone hunt for decades lol I start with Drums Then Bass then Guitar then vocals. I want to add keys but it's always unplugged over there... LOL
Start with the low end. set the volume of the kick then match the low end of the bass guitar to the kick then bring in the guitars then bring in the snare to match the guitars
@@Durkhead yep pretty close to what I do every time that low end is massive have to deal with that first thing
I was thinking maybe change the angle of the mics to create a deeper null that he could sit in... but, yeah, backing him up *would* be the easy fix, wouldn't it. 🙄
Having not heard the answer yet….. put him in the corridor 😂
All of the church audio guys are saying, "Why are you going through all of these suggestions when you just have to move him to a different location?"
My solution would be to move the whole choir back away from the microphone array so that when the sound arrived at the microphones it was the sound of the whole group as one voice.
That was the first solution that came to mind.
Get it right at the source.
Adjust the loud singer's proximity to the mic?
I would've probably just had the rest do their parts and then overdub him after or setup a separate mic for him so I can control the level while he sings
Move his arse BACK. thx Joe God Bless you and your family
He just has to take a step back.
Dj's often make this mistake as well, EQ-ing their ass off without balancing the (pre-fader) volume.
If a person sings louder, I would definitely record his voice separately and blend it in with the rest of the tracks!
Duct tape for the win.
Just back him up off the mic. That's what they used to do in the 40s when they recorded jazz bands with one mic, and same for when Cher or Darlene Love would sing backing vocals on those old Phil Spector songs, since they both had such powerful voice compared to the other singers. My music teacher in college called it "live mixing."
That was honestly my first thought... I got lucky HAHAHA
Move him back or move him away from the pickup pattern of the mics
Have him step back. I once had to have a singer on the other side of the room because of how loud his belting was lol.
As soon as you mentioned Ian Shepherd, I thought, he probably made it 1 dB louder.
We always create problems and then assign plugins to it..
Record that loud dude in second take. :)
I thought you can dampen the vocal by sticking a sock in the loudmouth
Stop at 2'23'' : I would ask the guy with the louder voice to step back a little bit.
EDIT at 4'34'' Haha I was right 🙂
Take a few steps back?
Sing above the mic instead of straight in to it?
Make him sing further away from the group and get it right on capture.
In the old days (when they recorded a whole band on one central mic), they did move instruments closer or farther to 'mix' the blend.
That said, I'd bet the problem was him being directly on-axis with that narrow figure-8 lobe.
Simple fix? Narrow the coverage pattern, to say, 60°. (Classic Blumlein spread is 90°.)
More elegant, arguably better solution?
Set up an M-S matrix on the console. 'Mid' mic directly at the center of the group, panned center. 'Side' mic facing left, perpendicular to front 90°, catching left with its face, and right with its back- split (after preamp) to two adjacent channels, panned hard left/right, and invert polarity on the right one.
Oh, look! Now you can dial in more or less width, to the image, and eq center & sides separately (but subtly!).
I was thinking of get him to turn his back to the mic
That's the first thing that came to my mind is to move him back away from the rest. 🤷🏾♂️
same
I would have people keep singing and have the loud singer keep taking a step back until it mixes well.
Move the singer. Ok. Back to the video
Step back 2 steps
Yup, that's how I would have fixed it. Hey, it worked in the 1920s.
May loud dude step backwards
Hey joe .
Where you going with that mic in your hand.🎶
Ha, I was right
Tell him to step a couple of feet away from the mic (GIRATS of course!)
Put him in booth with his own channel, or just put him further away from mic.