Why self-hatred can be narcissistic, according to david foster wallace
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- čas přidán 21. 02. 2023
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Hi lovely people. I’d like to address some of the concerns viewers have had regarding this video and its stance on narcissism, depression, and self-criticism.
1. stuff i didn’t say enough
I tried to make the video nuanced but at the same time not bloated beyond recognition by clarifications and footnotes. It's hard to strike that balance and in this case I didn't get it right. Some concerns I've seen in the comments I did address in the video. For example - I tried to be very clear that narcissism is a spectrum, that a degree of narcissism is healthy and that I suspect that the majority of people watching are not similar to the Depressed Person in character. Maybe I should have said even more clearly that the Depressed Person is an edge case. She is grotesquely exaggerated by DFW to make a point about the circular and poisonous nature of a high degree of focus on the self.
But, if I were to have covered all the reasonable, well-informed points brought up in the comments - DFW’s personal history with depression, the idea that all narcissism, both overt and covert, has low self-esteem at its root, the idea that low self-esteem can manifest in other, very different, non-narcissistic ways, and that there is a huge difference between asking for support and obsessively seeking reassurance to the detriment of others - this video would be 60 minutes long and unconsumable and tiresome, just like this text is turning out to be.
2. my biases
I should have emphasized more, perhaps, that my reading of this story is linked to my personal experiences. The intense self-loathing and offence that this story inspired in me was what made me want to make the video in the first place, and clearly that emotional reaction got passed on to the audience, which I guess is a testament not only to the faults of this video but also to the strengths of DFW’s story.
Depression is a serious and debilitating illness and I know the devastation depression and suicide can cause. I wish everyone who is suffering from it could get the support they need and deserve.
I’d like to say to everyone out there who saw this video and is suffering from anxiety and depression that I know that what you are going through is incredibly difficult. The fact that it is happening to you is not your fault, and I love you.
As someone in there 20s with anxiety and depression who has had basically all the same kind of thoughts you've had, I found your video very nuanced for the length (I would have watched an hour if this but most vids I watch now are >hour so I might be an edge case). I always appreciate your willingness to be vulnerable in all your videos and this is one of my new favorites (the other being your video on weeds) because I find them challenging in a good way
yea this was a month ago but i saw nothing wrong with this video lol. dont sweat it
Depression is self aggression and caused by anexity which in its turn is caused by sense of insufficiency born out of relational trauma from mothers or if it is girl father. Look up "emotionally dead mother" or "rejecting narcissistic father". You probably splitting and have two big false selfs. One is good and another is bad. The difference between them is making you suffer. Good one consist of your real good qualities and qualities you wish you had and bad one consist of your real bad qualities and imagined. You need to remove imagined parts and integrate real once. Also you may have split parts due to child hood traumas. That also needs to be resolved. They need to be brought back to conscience and experienced out. You literally need emotionally go back to when it happened and let the emotions and feelings related to those events go through you. It is not pleasant but you are big girl and can handle it, also you can get resources from some external to you and your trauma. If you get your traumas processed, self integrated and increase you sufficiency unconscious base anexity levels will drop and you no longer be depressed. Also see if you have no ADHD it can cause depression too. Peace and love. Keep up to the good work. I like you and what you do.
“True humility is not thinking less of yourself, it’s thinking of yourself less.” -C.S. Lewis
"Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame." - Uncle Iroh
Tim Keller's "The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness" is brilliant, too.
This remind me of Albert Camus' work (I think) where one of his character dont give a fuck about himself and doing batshit crazy around him. Spoiler..........he got sentence to death and get a chance from priest to convert christianity to repent, but he refuse it and choose to die because life is random/absurd....
@@Kurushimi1729 Pride is healthy but it should be allocated right; however, unjustified pride is always a bad thing.
8=D
It's important to remember that children from abusive homes are used to people constantly paying attention to them and their behaviors. So their obsession with self-hatred and constantly paying attention to themselves stems from trauma and fear.
Especially when this abuse comes from a narcissistic parent or parents. Thank you for your comment
well shit. how do you fix that?
@@acattagite448 Realizing that the person who is harshest with you is yourself can help
yeah i was abused at home and bullied at school and since i was “smart” a lot of expectations have always been placed on me. people were always watching and i always feel like i’m being observed. i rarely ever had people in my life who didn’t nitpick at everything about me.
@@niloticnya yo exact same
Guys, bear in mind, engaging in introspection and self evaluation isn't bad. Some of us are extremely harsh on ourselves more than others but that doesn't make you a narcissistic person in and of itself. If you're seeking wisdom and enlightenment you HAVE to think about yourself. "Know thyself" and all that. So, some of us MIGHT be somewhere one one side of this spectrum, but just because you identify with the points of the video does not mean you're a narcissist or somehow an inferior human being
Very true. As a mental health professional, I think there is a vital need for nuance in areas such as these. I that narcissism is used too much and too broadly as a throwaway-term for a lot of very different things. Not to mention that narcissistic personality disorder as in the clinical diagnosis is less common than the internet sometimes makes it seem. Egocentrism or introspection have very different experiental qualities, and I think reducing either one to a "narcissistic" experience is counterproductive. Both, to people suffering from actual NPD and people who are trying to deduce who they are and learn from that. Totally agree with you. Cool conversation in this though. And it's Still cool to have the conversation about the adverse effects of too much introspection, but it feels like a different wording is valuable there.
Thank you for bringing this up, I was already feeling insecure behind this train of thought and felt like going insane over the overly contradictory and agonizing meditations on being a healthy human being.
Yeah, there is a difference between self-reflection versus self-obsession.
I think the one point this video missed is that there's a difference between seeking [external ]validation, versus seeking to be the center of attention &/or admiration. And seeking validation, by itself, isn't necessarily a remotely narcissistic trait-it's more[ I think] the combination of seeking to be the center of admiration &/or attention together with these very particular certain other things(such as an absence of empathy), as well as the constant prevalence &/or EXTREME-degree of it. And the lack of empathy itself is also persistent and pervasive, not just like an (infrequent) occasional insensitive lapse that happens from time to time simply because someone's merely human(or under extreme extenuating circumstances).
And even if you are narcissistic, that still doesn't necessarily mean you're always automatically a bad person either-it just means you may need to make more of a conscious effort to be aware of others' needs/feelings[/etc.] or whatever. Whether or not you're a bad person depends on whether or not you _enjoy_ taking-advantage of or hurting others, AND/OR/ whether or not you put in any of the actual effort to do better when you mess things up &/or to not take advantage of others nor cause the suffering of others[ and not only for your own sake or benefit].
If one of your core needs isn’t being met somehow, you absolutely will spend a lot of time thinking about yourself. It’s inevitable, and necessary.
Actually, this is also a root cause of narcissism (coincidentally, also a focus on the “self,” due to a lack of emotional needs being met during childhood).
The mind thinks about oneself in order to find a way to meet that core need, and to help others in the same position do similarly. It is a vital part of being human that people who have lacked something essential will undergo.
To others this appears selfish because they intuitively know that once the puzzle is solved, it may be their turn, too, to undergo this process. Or, that the person may realize there are better ways to meet their needs than to be in an exploitative relationship.
So- think about yourself! Find a way to meet that need. No one else will do it for you. It is your birthright, and your responsibility, to find a way to meet your own needs.
That's exactly what I thought. Like i want to be self aware and look back on my mistakes and learn. And it involves thinking about yourself and self criticism
I don't want to be a narcissist, I don't want to hate myself. I don't want to think about myself, it hurts, it makes me miserable, but I just can't stop, I don't know how. I wish I could just not care about myself, be indifferent, but I literally don't know what muscle to move in my brain. It's like being asked to move my ears, I literally just can't do it.
I also don't want to burden other people with my pain. When I hate myself the most, I tend to isolate. I don't want other people to see me, either to pity me, to help me or to do anything at all.
Wow, so totally relatable, thanks for sharing. I think there's a lot of hate online for narcissists. But I don't even think we should label people. It kind of reinforces the narratives. But people are with their unique struggles and these adaptations were developed for a reason. It's not like we consciously choose to be this way. Like if you could click your fingers and be instantly loving and kind to yourself even when you make mistakes and even when you hate yourself I'm sure you would do it. I would do it. I've been stuck in self hate for the past few days and I also isolate myself and sort of just give up on myself and let my brain just abuse me and tell me I'm worthless and just a burden and that I shouldn't ask for help and burden people. I'm gonna tell you what I'd like to be told. You deserve to be kind to yourself, like anyone else because you're only doing your best. It's not your fault that you feel this way. Be kind to yourself. I know it's hard and you can be so used to self hate and it might feel like you can't control it. I know that feeling when you just give up on yourself. Please don't, you're worth it. You deserve to be loved like anyone else. You're just human going through human shit. Go easy on yourself. It will not only help you, but also people around you will benefit from you being kind to yourself. And forgive yourself constantly. Nothing is unforgivable. I'm sure you haven't murdered anyone. But I'm go totally radical and say, I don't care what you have done whatever you think is unforgivable, still love yourself especially if you have done things you regret. You couldn't have done anything different. This moment is the only moment where change happens. The past and the future are not under your control. Only this moment is. So start with where you are right now. Do one small thing that is kind to yourself. Do something you enjoy. Listen to your favorite music. Tell yourself "I'm sorry I have been unkind to you, I didn't know any better, I'm so sorry sweetheart, you were only trying to keep me safe the best way you knew how".
This might be more for me. I'm struggling with self hate at the moment and this is my best attempt to be kind to myself right now. I hope this helps. I know the struggle.
About the ears, have you tried using your hands?
Ohkaaaay
Think about other people first and how you can help them. This is a skill we all have to work on our whole lives
In the same boat with you and I know the feeling. Maybe double it down would help, don’t take my word for it, just see if it helps. The label “narcissistic” has a negative connotation attached to it, so our system of thinking takes it and feeds itself with it like: I don’t wanna be a narcissist, I’m fighting it ect. In stead of: Big deal, I’ll be it.
Our system says: I don’t wanna hate myself. In stead of: I’m gonna feel this feeling to the bottom of it. I don’t have to fight resist, what my upbringing made me feel.
Or
I think too much about myself and how I am being perceived. I want to stooop. Maybe replacing it with: I’m going to think obsessively about me more deliberately now.
My therapist is normalizing me that it is typical to have narcissistic traits in teens and twenties. It’s a developmental phase as we are getting to know ourselves. I was pathologizing myself as a narcissistic when I’m really just 25 and working on myself. just want to note that for any young people here in therapy who are worried about that
Such a good point! I cringe at some of my behaviours and attitudes from that time. That being said, I also was somewhat aware of them and worked hard to evolve. I'm not sure if it just happens without effort or not, since I only have my own life as reference.
“Great, another reason to hate myself”
Not gonna lie while this is an interesting topic, a part of me feels like this is going to lead to people with severe depression and self loathing to now believe they are narcissists and even "worse" people than they originally believed. I'm already seeing this in the comments and I'm pretty concerned for the people who are taking this personally.
Hey 😭
I was severely abused by a narcissist ist mother as a child and I was removed from my parent's custody. I deal with a lot of depression, ptsd etc nowadays, and you are absolutely right. This video is horrible. Horrible. I don't get triggered easily but this video is horrible for people who were victims of narcissists.
@B P I'm so glad someone else agrees, and I'm sorry for what you had to go through. Even the title feels accusatory to me. Though she uses a bunch of references to texts and all that in this video, there seems to be a lack of personal experience with people who are actually narcissistic and people who experience extreme self loathing, because while I could see some examples of self loathing as being "self-centered" (which is normal btw, you are the only one in your body so duh a lot of your thoughts are about you), I would never equate it to narcissism.
It isn’t anya’s problem how people feel after this video, she is simply just talking about a form of narcissism.
@@emily2k111 I definitely think the way you make your audience feel with your video is like, a huge part of being a content creator. You can't make any mild criticism of a video without someone trying to bust your balls so, whatever.
It's important to note that narcissism doesn't mean you're a bad person. There are a lot of videos on yt that are basically confirmation bias hate, like an inquisition. You can be hurt without diagnosing someone, even if it makes you feel better to do so...
yah- there is no way there are this many narcissists, which leads me to think there are way too many folks pointing fingers instead of learning from their failed relationships. Also, we need to learn the difference between being a narcissist and exhibiting narcissist behavior.
@B W yea...you'll find a bunch of em on quora in the narc hunter spaces..some have been posting since 2014. Let that sink in
Im not too informed on Narcicistic personality disorder.. but from what Ive observed in my life including myself, there are two types of narcissist. The ones who hurt or use other people to their advantage due to their Narcicism. And the ones who isolate oneself from everyone and spend most life being miserable, riddled with self loathing. I fit the latter, and Idk if I do have npd, but I have body dysmorphia and depression(which makes me overly fixated on my physical appearance and my flaws as person). If I do have npd, then man.. As much as I hate those with this disorder, they also have my sympathy. Because being obsessed with your negative self image is tormenting. Sometimes I feel as if Im living in hell because everything is painful. I isolate and distance myself even from my family, and I guess that is also considered as inflicting emotional pain on them.. But it doesn't matter that much to me because my misery in life overpowers their feelings. I don't express my pain to anyone though. If anything, I just don't talk at all.
@@bapbirb That's real rough and I hope things get better. There aren't 'two types' of any person, regardless of their disorders. There's an endless amount of types. They may have things in common but you can't predict outcomes based on a feature or disfunction.
Yeah .. kinda like how not every psychopathic or sociopathic person is necessarily a bad person, or a criminal, either; and how not every bad person[ or criminal] is necessarily even psychopathic or sociopathic at all.
Being a bad person is[ I think] all in what you do with it, &/or how you do[ or don't] choose to treat other things/people [either ]because of[ or in spite of] it.
And, double-yeah, definitely leave the diagnosing to those professionals actually qualified to do so!. 😅😅🙃😶
Yes, interesting topic~ My mother had that typical self-hate narcissism attitude - it was SO easy to insult her pride! In the end she passed on the naricissism to me since I started to assume everyone dislikes or judges me, because she would do that my whole life, so she could avoid blaming herself. I went to therapy but still, realizing most people dont judge me, depressed me a lot because it felt like no one honestly cares about me which results in a deep existence crises. I will always carry those worries deep in my heart, no matter how much I tell myself it is ok , but it was relieving when I learned why I was feeling the way I feel.
@@OGpostaldude than you probably didn't watch the whole video or fully underst and the term narcissism hon
@Trinity M you should watch the video again, she is explaining a lot why it is that way. Narcissim can result from traumatic past and destroys your self image. Don't judge others people history if you don't know the person, I dont think you have the right to do that
How about you get over yourself; Even when you’re not being judged, you find a way to complain and make it about yourself.
@@epic_sans8229 I don't think you understand what mental illness means when u are writing 'just get over yourself'. It's not that easy if you have a traumatic past, I've been in therapy for 10 years , you have no idea
@@epic_sans8229 I find your response quite funny considering *what* they're complaining about, ha
I think it’s important to have empathy for people who are going through stuff. Narcissism is a catch all term nowadays for “You’re evil and can’t be fixed” but I think there’s inherently a problem with the amount of people labeling others as narcissists nowadays because as the saying goes hurt people hurt people and the more we ostracize them instead of listening to their story is gonna just make them more “evil” cus they feel fear/pain. And we all know animals in fear/pain get aggressive.
Narcissists usually have childhood wounds believe it or not. And they compensate by puffing up their feathers like a bird. Humiliation and invalidation wounds mostly.
The only way to break through to a toxic person is through compassion and being a healer with good boundaries. And maybe that healer isn’t gonna be you. And that’s okay.
This should be the pinned comment honestly. I'm dissapointed this video lacks discussion about how self-hate is related to trauma.
Bro i can't even hate myself without being labeled something, ain't no way 😂😂😂
FOR REALLL LET ME DEPRESSED WITHOUT BEING CALLED SOME NARC DAMN😭😭😭😭
I know right. Absolutely absurd. What's next "if you don't like strawberry poptarts it could mean you're a narcissist"? It's the new bad word to degrade people.
@@marshmarsh7609 yall literally Calling and labeling yourself Depressed, likeeee labels are fucking everywhere u people are using it!!!
@@SonofJesus14 your example doesn't even correlate, it sounds idiotic. Did you guys even listen to the video ?
@@LuisHernandez-uq3hj that's the whole point? And no. I don't care about narcissists like everyone else seems to. I have more important things to learn. Do you watch videos on psychopaths all day? I'm sure you don't. Why would I do that with any other form of mental illness? I'm not a psychiatrist or deal with narcissists on a daily basis. If you enjoy this stuff, good on you. But, I do not. Later.
You're a narc if you do and you're a narc if you don't. Everyone is a narc so there is no escape.
Exactly. Just don't do anything ever, stay completely still like a rock. At least rocks aren't considered narcissists, so I now identify as one. I'm too busy laying in a patch of dirt doing absolutely nothing to continue this comment further 🪨
Everyone probably has a bit of narc, just like everyone has a dower mood now and again, and it's annoying but tolerable, however, a genuine clinical narc is impossible to mistake, because you'll question your own sanity.
We're talking about extremes here. You're not a narcissist if you feel disappointed in yourself sometimes or depressed, and you're not one if you're self-confident. It's about the extreme obsession with yourself.
All women are narcissists when children are involved!! Lol narcissism probably shouldn't have been labeled people biologically look for patterns but we began finding them even when they don't exist we find what we are looking for!!!
"narcissism" can be a catch-all word that becomes meaningless if used too much and applied too broadly. It takes good training by professional psychologists to diagnose someone as being narcissistic...... otherwise we would just throw the word around without a thought....
Seriously. It devastatingly overused.
@Sexy Ἀλκιβιάδης I think it is used to say "your needs are getting in the way of my needs".... ie: any will of yours is a power trip and any will of mine is liberation and freedom.
Not really but maybe that applies to you
@Sexy Ἀλκιβιάδης could you define it in this context? and does that definition apply to the other youtubers and bloggers who talk about it? just curious
@Sexy Ἀλκιβιάδης Yes narcissism just describes a trait many ppl have. Less ppl have NPD the personality disorder that has to be diagnosed by a professional. Just as its okay to describe someone being intelligent you can describe them as a narcissist.
I know that I have some covert narcissistic tendencies. I grew up with very high expectations, and was coddled by my mom into thinking I was a brilliant musical genius. My dad took the opposite view and was harsh by comparison. So, my point (other than to focus on myself and illicit sympathy) is to say please love your children and show them healthy boundaries. Teach them that they are special, but no more special than other kids. Tell them to explore life and find what they love. Don’t make a big spectacle about their incredible brilliance, artistic talent, or anything. Just acknowledge and support their interests.
For what it’s worth, I’ve been able to act in healthier ways by choosing to learn about psychology and relationships. So I think it is possible to heal and make progress with this.
This. I wrote a picture book when I was 5-6 and my family deemed me a child prodigy for writing and that suddenly became my whole personality growing up. I loved writing and thought I was a super genius with it. When I got to high school and college, I was very humbled and realized that writing isn't actually for me. I went through a whole identity crisis over it. It felt like I let my family down.
Instead of telling children "you're so smart" or that they are "brilliant" simply recognize their hard work, efforts, and achievements as something they did on their own which boosts their self-esteem. That way if they do fail at something they won't feel overburdened by "letting down" their parents or failing to meet their parents' high expectations.
Similar experience here, you're not alone with this. I had to learn the hard way that I was not, in fact, a genius! Believing that about myself was a barrier to the world that felt huge and terrifying, that belief took away the uncertainty that I know now is vital to a healthy life.
i feel this way completely, and i wish the expectations would go away. i don’t think i’m smart, but strangers comment on it and it feels burdensome to add another person’s expectations to the rest. i’m just tired and want to be seen as a person for once in my life
Based
I have narcissistic personality disorder and I can relate to the depressed person a lot (unfortunately). Watching the video was really hard for me, made me feel like a person that could choose to not be narcissistic but just doesn’t do it. I can’t find the switch in my brain, I feel stuck in my diagnosis and I thought that being self aware would make me heal faster, but it’s just causing me more self hate.
It's not about finding the switch and turning it off. Just doesn't work that way. The key is modifying your behaviors. Firstly, that's by far the fastest way to change your inner world.
Secondly, your inner world isn't other people's business. Doing the right thing because you know it's the right thing even though you don't want to counts just as much as wanting to. Your obligation to others is to not be shitty to them, and that's it. You don't owe the rest of the world "fixing" your problems. You only owe the world doing ~what you can~ to manage them.
Keep going! You're fuckin doin it
Whichever way it's extremely insensitive to vilify someone's misery as narcissism. I mean the person is sad as it is, exploiting that for a unilateral and bloated study is ruthless.
It's interesting that you say that I've been thinking that people really demonize narcissism disorder or perhaps people with it, but it's been thought to stem from cen (childhood emotional neglect). That doesn't justify anything but an explanation.
At the end of the day with this new perspective on self-hatred as theoretically induced by covert narcissism, the possible cause and perpetuator of depression, the best we can get in the midst of the sparked offence(which is quite divergent, since some agree to her) is that we can evaluate if our depression is to be still endured reasonably with the awareness that this may only be masking our covert narcissism and is continued by the signs mentioned relating to the former.
It's not meant to strike us any more strandless than we are nor place us for an undue identity that would drill us more into our depresssion if it came to be possibly true that we are secretly narcissistic. It would help us move forward, and I don't think the creator would've intended to reproach depressed people any further with analyzing on how self-righteous we can be to our own harm if she did come to be right. It'd be just a hard pill we need to swallow.
That, yeah people who are narsicist and go on being the " the most poor person ever" with suffering contests, fair.
But also its not helping to lump all depression in it. Its just a case if a narsicist, with depression.
Granted tough self love can help, but thats, not about depression about that point, but selfcare or lack of.
As a self-actualized person currently, who had once been that type of covert narcissist in my late teens, I think the problem lies in more socialized ideals of parenting on the matter. You don't get to be this way if, say, you had actual supportive caregivers and elders who gave you their time. That showed you that what matters to you matters to them too, that taught you someone would genuinely listen if you come to them with a whimper instead of drilling it into your head that you need to constantly scream. It's a practice in being alive maybe, a practice of being a social creature while also having a separate identity from the whole. The I's and you's and we's.
For a lot of us, our caregivers didn't teach us that. They didn't teach that, if a tree falls in the forest with no one there to listen, it DOES make a sound, while no one claimed witness, it doesn't change the fact that the tree itself heard and felt the fall.
Defense mechanisms like this aren't born with, they're made. They're taught. They're given as a birthday present you cry in sadness over while nested in your bedsheets.
How the story portrays the depressed person as 'privileged in many ways' feels like a ye-olde 'calling a woman hysterical' situation. It lacks nuance in my opinion, about how trauma clouds people's memories and how its telling us to withdraw our compassion the second we don't know how to solve something instead of learning ways to actively help.
There's something malicious about the idea that external dependency is seen as a sin when co-regulation (in other words trauma dumping) is part of being a vulnerable human thing. While you might say it's the 'excessive, manipulative version' of this action is an issue, I see it as a call to action maybe. We shouldn't settle with this, neither the narcissist nor the recipient of that aggrandization deserve this, either being stuck unable to find joy or being bombarded with negative emotions. To change how we view parenting. And to be honest that, in cases like these where there's no end to the cycle of need and need and need, we as a society should be make it more societally acceptable to put our own foot down.
To end the cycle. To start constructing solid ways to move on while acknowledging pain. I like this example I found on Tumblr some time ago.
"Oh I must be the worst boyfriend you've ever had."
"Yes, you are. We've had this conversation many times before and your behavior hasn't changed. I need to know, will you shoulder the responsibility and fix this so we don't waste each other's time?"
Breaking the cycle is by doing something societally taboo and agreeing with that self-deprecation. Then when they're surprised with the transgression hit them with an honest call-out. I needed this honestly while I was in those dark, dark years.
Also, as another commenter wrote I think narcissism as a word has been given the old semantic saturation/buzzword treatment. The way you explain everything feels excessively pathologizing the unhealthy coping mechanisms of a mentally unwell person, not an actual reference to the disorder itself which is somewhat ableist and dehumanizing of people who have that trait, especially robbing them of their agency/choice to actively be good people. Society collectively really should find better words we can use for the trauma and bullshit we go through. People can be bad and awful and shitty without being a narcissist/sociopath/psychopath and its more common for a normal person to be shitty than it is to ever meet an actual diagnosable person with such disorders. People can be bad and awful and shitty while still being deserving of patience and empathy for their past unhealed wounds. It's not an either/or.
Honest to god, I stopped the video somewhere near the middle. I'm thankful this video helped me externalize my thoughts on the matter I really am, but these types of video essays aren't my personal taste and that's ok for both you and me and anyone reading this. Have a good day/night.
Thanks for writing.
A lot of people in the comments are just like ableist? Not sure if that's the right word, but it's strange how so much people seem to forget that narcissism is a DISORDER. It doesn't reflect on anyone's morality, the same way that depression doesn't
Also she did talk more about things like depression being often comorbid with NPD and generally empathised more with the depressed person, as well as literally saying that she was like the depressed person in the latter half of the video. She also ends on a more positive note :)
The comments were much better than the video. I began to enjoy it once I paused it, stopped listening, and started reading.
Thank you for assuring me that I’m a narcissist
Yes I’m thinking about myself when I watch this so definitely I am
Bruh you are not a narc because you think about yourself 😭
Narcissism and self-hatred are both results of a self-centred mind.
I for one often feel that I have failed my potential, which means I do think highly of myself in a way
Due to how the minds of us on the spectrum develop, a self centered mindset is a problem I definitely have, it's not exclusive to narcissistic personality disorder though us on the spectrum still have genuine empathy.
Thinking highly of ourselves has nothing to do with narcissim, it means we expect good from ourselves, not that we necessarily want to step on others to achieve what we want or think we deserve. Thinking about our potential and feeling we haven't met that is an expected reaction inside the type of society we live in.
@@ignacia3628 I also think a lot of people conflate self love and narcissism. Just because someone thinks highly of themselves, takes care of themselves, and might post to social media often does not automatically make them a narcissist. I think an healthy dose of introspection and self awareness can be good. It’s when you become self obsessed to the point of not caring/thinking about others is when it becomes a problem. It is similar to people who wallow in constant self-loathing. That much self-hatred will definitely have detrimental consequences and may lead the person to isolate themselves. I don’t agree that self hatred is narcissistic, though, most people don’t want to hate themselves. The word narcissism is used too loosely in my opinion. I would rather people be overly obsessed with themselves than have a deep rooted hatred for themselves to be honest.
Everyone I dislike is a narcissist is a better definition!
Of what?
@@rawdasalmataman7908 whatever type of narcissism people on the internet talk about (that has nothing to do with dsm-5 classifications)
@@cosisisito What do you mean
Did she even mention dsm in the video
Also when you write your original comment were you talking about the creator 's title or what should have been the title or what
@@rawdasalmataman7908 she also mentions "covert narcissism" which is basically pseudo psychology, and bases her entire video on a fictional character. My comment is about the video.
@@cosisisito Yeah because she thinks this character is a representation of that
My problem though was how she was explaining it
This fictional character is a narcissist but also depressed
She keeps calling her depressed person while not talking about the depressed part all just the narcissistic one which is honestly wrong
It is like saying all depressed people are narcissist which is far from the truth
Also she was talking about this fictional character like she is some disgusting creature when there are people like her who have the same problems as her
With all due respect, the title of this video is misleading and comes off as intellectually dishonest. It makes it seem like David Foster Wallace's story is an accessory, when really it's the basis of the analysis.
Conversely , the self-hatred element is supporting evidence and not the thesis. Covert narcissism is really what's under investigation, using Wallace's story as a textbook example of NPD behaviors.
It just feels a bit inflammatory? As if the title is saying that if you've ever experienced self-hatred, you too are a narcissist as bad as the person in the story. I know that an attempt to articulate the opposite is made, but the title presents the symptom as the the cause, since it is placed first in the syntax.
Of course, people can experience self-hatred because of totally external reasons like bullying, neglect, shame, grief, etc. Imagine killing someone in a car accident. Self hating guilt would come from believing that you had not only ended someone's life, but also ruined the lives of their loved ones, even if it wasn't your fault.
I know that the story or the video isn't meant to invalidate anyone experiencing depression, but the title again, misleadingly expresses a symptom of the disorder as narcissistic. Meanwhile, depressed people are feeling like enough of a burden already.
I clicked on the video because the title genuinely bothered me, but wanted to give it a chance. The analysis was fine, but I still walk away feeling a bit upset.
Your comment is so pretentious, overly critical, and taking everything she said so literally.
I appreciated her conjectures and ideas. If anyone interprets anythjng she said as her claiming a fact, they're idiots. She is not presenting herself as an expert and again anyone that would do so is...ya know, an idiot, lol.
@@pokemaniaceddie4029 it was actually a very respectful critique particularly in its attempt to be polite. It was unlike your critique in every way. As of this writing it has 88 upvotes so I imagine it captured a popular sentiment.
You may not criticize Woman #5,832 making a video about narcissists. They need this. It's almost like...
So you're saying that the clickbait, as offensive as it was, worked on you? Cool.
@@sandraswan9008 where is your profile picture from?
Oh, great, another reason to hate myself, how meta.
- actual person having a crisis -
Expected response:
“Lmao don’t make this about yourself.” - The perfectly happy, successful guru to the lamentable depressed person.
Lmao when she said depression is "quiet cheatable" I laughed out loud
@@blep226 It on its own literally is quite treatable though. Studies show this.
Classic sign that a person is ignorant to mental illness and doesn't want to learn
Horseshoe-theory-ass take. Most depressed people are delusional, that is almost inherently part of the disorder. As a person with uncontrollable and emotional panic attacks, it’s embarrassing. I would hate for someone to look at my condition and think that I’m being inconsiderate and narcissistic. My brain is just crazy sometimes. I held this “depression is narcissism” belief for a while and it just made my spirals worse and more annoying to everyone, in fact it made my reasoning similar to the girl in the book who said she must be so annoying to her friends. Stop hating yourself, don’t just ignore yourself is my tip.
I think the same. This way of thinking sounds like victim blaming to me, like they want people who have been abused, have trauma, are oppressed etc to feel they're the bad guy for behaving and thinking in ways that are expected (nor necessarily healthy or normal, but expected) in the face of what they've gone through.
@@ignacia3628 you are interpreting everything as an attack when it's not. Ignoring how the video literally says the type of narcissism being described is on a spectrum and that they're not saying you have NPD.
Narcissistic traits =\= personality disorder.
@@ladyreverie7027 it is an attack to people who are mentally ill, especially those who deal with the aftermat of abuse and oppression, it almost conflates people who had to use certain survival mechanisms with abusers and manipulators, but those survival mechanisms are not narcissistic traits because trying to survive and the aftermat of that isn't narcissism either and it has nothing to do with it. There's no nuance on this video and it lacks the structure and logic of strong arguments, all of that hurts people who deal with poor self-image and a precarious mental health
@@ignacia3628 you are smart as fuck
depression can be caused by many things, for instance real life things outside of your control, brain imbalance, sensitivity and so on. I don't think all of that is necessarily narcissistic. Also, you should have narcissist traits outside of depression, for instance being more attention seeking, talking about your problems more than listening to the others, to be considered a narcissist. It is obvious that the person who has currently problems talks more about themselves and the other one listens.
As the loving daughter of an overt narcissist who has spent a significant time wondering if she herself is a covert narcissist (…), here’s what helped: active self indifference, and getting a part time job in a psychiatric clinic. There one sees the spectrum of manifestation of personality disorders, the varying levels of self-awareness and the diverse adapting mechanisms.
And about the rest of the unscrappable narcissism left after all the efforts: we embrace it. 🤷♀️
This only works for people that have self awareness to at least some degree. Unfortunately, some people lack self awareness completely. Not just narcissists, of course. I experienced this in group therapy for depression. Some people start therapy already having an idea what causes or contributes to their depression. Some people discover themselves during therapy, and learn e.g. to identify that they were abused as a child. And then there are people who get everything pointed out to them, multiple times ... but they just don't get it. Imagine a person getting really mad for having been insulted. At the same time, they insult everyone around them, even close family, in the same way. But they don't see or understand how something that hurts them also hurts others...
@@michaelseitz8938 very true
@Michael Seitz good point. I lack self awareness and to some extent I see wym
Active self indifference would lead to death very quickly. We should not be actively self indifferent.
Please do remember that depression most of time doesn't mean someone is narcissistic, and even if it does, that is often a result of environmental conditions.
Oop time to fuel my intrusive anxieties about how I'm a narcissist
i hope ur ok,,
You’re depressed self hate is different from a narcissist self hate. It can be confusing bc a lot mental illness share similar things, but are different. Which is why we shouldn’t use the internet to diagnose ourselves.
So, if I have this right then it's the traumatized/depressed/self-aware lot with an existential crisis that's narcissistic.
But the heavy-on-self-care, influencer-types with toxic positivity crammed into hollow vibes of "love yourself"? They're the truly healthy, non-narcissistic lot. Got it. Makes total sense.
@Rachel Forshee she made a terrible video that she has no business doing!! My ex wife was a narcissistic happy person the universe would make everything happen for her!! I wouldn't do a video that over happy people who don't do introspection are narcissistic!!! This will lead to more harm than good!!
@@patrickday4206 What's your point? A narcissist is a narcissist. She's just commenting on covert narcissism as it's less well known.
@@Oliver-qz4kf it is vilification of people who have problems nobody thinks narcissism is neutral she's not claiming narcissistic traits she is claiming they are narcissists! It will not help anyone get better it will only cause people to lash out blaming them!! Severely depressed people don't need more people attacking them read the book of job take it in !! I'm a atheist but there's real lessons and it has nothing to do about God but it's about how people react to things and the evil people do when they assume about the wreck of people’s lives!!!
This video gave me a lot to think about. Thank you for sharing this
You are basically conflating narcissism and self-reflection. It is healthy to create self-narratives about yourself. What do you define as overthinking or thinking too much about yourself? If you go to a job interview and give many stories about yourself, then that is not overthinking. If you give a similar amount of negative stories then it is overthinking now? The amount of thinking doesn't make depression bad, the negative consequences of depression make it bad. You say something is overthinking when in fact you mean that the thing is inherently negative and any amount of it is too much, which is fair enough but the "too much" part isn't the real reason why it is bad and so self-hatred isn't really narcissism.
When you're narcissistic, you think you are special so you think your abilities are exceptional and your struggles are impossibly terrible. This is a result of a lack of attention given to other people. Because if you were to observe the people around you, you would find that many share your struggles and many may exceed your abilities. This lack of outward attention can be a product of isolation or an egotistical perspective.
Imo the word narcassism in this video eeds to be replaced with maladaptive self focus. Thats a term that implies that there is an adaptive and positive form of self focus. The word narcassist is overused anyway to the point that it no longer necessarily implies its original meaning or clinical narcassism
Well she has a valid point and it's supported by research. Your comment however isn't.
Do you have any qualifications in the field of psychology to back those claims up? Other than wikipedia that is.
@@distantraveller9876 i am currently studying psychology at bachelor level, so no, i don't have any qualification as of yet. That being said i don't need any. This is more of a question of semiotics. Show me a study that can define narccisism. I can understand the main point that self hatred can often accominy grandiosity. The idea of the hedonic treadmill, which proposes that no mather your emotional level, we always come back to our baseline. If you experience lower lows then you are probably more likely to experience higher highs. Opposites attract and self hatred can accomony a greater sense of self. My point was that the word narccisism presupposes the idea of "too much" which is why i think grandiosity would be a better word.
Jesus, we should just make a video, "How being a person is a form of narcissism" and be done with it already
Facts. If we just accept we are all narcissists perhaps this insanity will end. They're more obsessed with narcissists than the narcissist is obsessed with themselves.
Spoken like a true Narcissist! lol, jk. Agreed though, I feel like the term is being widely thrown around lately.
did you even watch the video lol
@@malinamih no. I have seen more of these videos than I'd like to admit and I have better things to do than to worry about a narcissist or a wrongly diagnosed narcissist. Let the doctors diagnose people, even if it may be a wrong diagnosis. I'm not obsessed with narcissists like everyone else seems to be. I got Jesus to focus on. You should do the same.
@@malinamih show me a chapter in the bible that mentioned "focus only on narcissists." Or any resemblance to it.
Some thoughts that I think need to be brought up:
As some previous comments mentioned, self-hatred is related to trauma. People don't develop high self criticism without outside causes. I think people who have been scapegoated are particularly vulnerable to covert narcissism - their environment made them believe they are responsible for everything wrong and it warps their perception of reality. Becoming a scapegoat in childhood is particularly tough, as our earliest experiences are responsible for developing the type of brain chemistry we're stuck with for the rest of our lives. And when we're particularly emotionally vulnerable as children we can become easy targets of blame for many reasons, often ones out of our control - just think of how bullies pick on the kids that are the easiest to make cry and how they often end up unloading their personal frustrations on them. The abused child can be led to believe that it's responsible for things that happen to the bully that made them agressive. That, in turn, can skew the vulnerable child's perspective and make them wrongly think that they're the root of all evil if they make others aggresive by simply existing. To protect their loved ones from all this perceived evil within them, the child develops high self criticism that can seemingly work to some capacity. It's all obviously incredibly absurd, but trauma involves broken emotional preception that messes a lot with logic.
When it comes to minimized or lack of empathy - when you're brought up in an abusive environment, you don't have much room to develop it to begin with. In order to survive an abusive situation, a child would end up disconnecting themselves mentally through survival strategies. Disassociation, emotional masking, people-pleasing and high self-criticism are things that both make it hard to relate to other people and let them avoid more harm. And if the child is brought up in an environment that punishes them for emotional vulnerability, it creates a dissonance that's hard to resolve. When we're kids, we're often told to do good, be honest and never do harm. When abusers punish us for doing that, it creates a mentality that is both self-loathing and hateful towards others. If I'm being authentic and want to do good, I'm punished for it AND I have to become dishonest about myself to survive, why would I want to connect with others? Why would I want to relate to an abuser? A harmful environment greatly reduces capacity for empathy and makes us live in survival mode, which on it's own requires us to be self-focused. It's hard to empathize when you're led to believe the world is always out for your blood.
Self-criticism drives people away from you and you become more lonely and more prone to being stuck alone with your thoughts. It's a catch-22 situation - you can't really get out of trauma-based thinking patterns without a support network, but you also have a hard time processing supportive feedback properly if you do have it. While I believe learning empathy and understanding (ESPECIALLY towards yourself for abused individuals) is the key to healing, you have to be mindful that for some trauma survivors, their empathy was abused and they had to "unlearn" it to survive. It's very hard for them to tell when they can allow genuine vulnerability and when to protect themselves through learned coping mechanisms.
Anyway, my heart goes to all of you who struggle with self-hatred. Please know that you're not evil or disgusting for trying to do good, even if you blunder. You're allowed to be imperfect and to let go. If people hate you for being your authentic self - that's their issue and you have no obligation to fix that. People get things wrong, sometimes they're wrong about you. As corny as it sounds, it helped me to think this way.
I fully accept that others exist who are more miserable than myself, though I can’t quite comprehend why they haven’t ended it all.
Thank you for changing the title. Mental health is a tricky subject, and sensitivity is always recognized and appreciated. 😊
Oh my god... my head just exploded from this realization. 🤯🤯🤯🤯 I don't know if I feel liberated or more trapped but thank you for this video!
I think we should take care not to associate narcissism with depression since there's enough stigma.
Empirically, since vulnerable narcissism is highly correlated with neuroticism, it also correlates with anything else that correlates with neuroticism (social anxiety, loneliness, depression, mood disorders, PTSD etc.). But that only means that vulnerable narcissism is way too broad if viewed that way.
The core of narcissism (which both grandiose and vulnerable narcissism exhibit) is antagonism/disagreeableness. Self-hatred has nothing to do with how agreeable you are.
We do live in a very "self"-oriented age though - an age of self-care, self-love, self-discovery, self-help, self-reliance, self-confidence, selfies etc. It's an age where grandiose narcissism is almost normalized and will even look healthy to outsiders.
I don’t think you can make this claim and use a fictional story as evidence without any academic evidence to back it up. Especially since narcissism is a personality disorder that needs a professional diagnosis.
She's not diagnosing anyone though, and covert narcissism is a recognised clinical disorder. You can simply do a search for it.
And who tells you the author didn't feel this way, and wrote it for this reason?
Also, of course she shouldn't diagnose cause doesn't have the means; exactly as I think she knows; that she stated it and in fact, she's not even doing that, so to me it makes no sense to point this out. She wasn't claiming anything, if you saw the video. I don't think a person isn't allowed to cite a text to prove their point, and I think she was just explaining it, as the title says. Plus as the comment above says, you can google it, and Google the very same definition of narcissism too. She didn't bring this as evidence, she did other searchings, like in 12:11 and made her considerations; a person can learn more of a specific condition or study by that too.
Finally, I can assure you many psychologists don't handle this correctly themselves, and in my opinion she handles the topic more fairly, efficiently and even respectful than them. I visited a lot of psychologists, and they really abused me with their treatments and "academic" degrees, many of them even actively or passively insulted me because they had the mindset I was the patient and everything that I suggested wasn't good or hadn't logic. Many doctors are like that and leave patients to rotten, with both of my grandparents I can see it happened. I'm not saying that everyone are evil, but sure I never got a proper diagnosis. Some of this should be beyond illegal, cause I really struggle with anxiety and intrusivity now. I observed that many other people had my problem and it wasn't just me. I had to struggle with a lot of my low self esteem and had a lot of su1c1de thoughts. Upon realizing I couldn't live with this forever but I couldn't die as well, I eventually learned to "love myself" and living with it. How does that sound to you? I had to survive in a way, so I coped and this came out, I think human brain works like that. I would like to become a writer as well, and my fictions are based on what I feel as well
This presentation is not making a distinction between the person who, for example, obsesses over their new eyebrow sculpt because they are not happy with the results. Versus the person who, for example, had their top lip bitten off by a dog and obsesses over their inability to function in society without being met with looks of horror and disgust on the faces of others. The first person is likely displaying narcissistic behavior whereas the second person is not and is instead struggling with the pain of real alienation from society. One is not even remotely like the other. And potentially making a disfigured person feel guilty for being a "narcissist" is simply cruel.
Great comment, I agree with you. There's a lot of nuance that this video does not has
Is it a bad sign that it's genuinely difficult to watch this video because you feel like it's shining a light on your soul?
Maybe it's a good sign
If you know this is an issue you can find a fix
😇
Turns out I have another reason to hate myself because now I realize I am a narcissist.
You are not the only one.
I kind of had a feeling that I was too self absorbed and it was kind of narcissistic of me. I found this video and wow does it explain a lot.
@@WilliamBrowning If that's true, that's not a mindset to have. The first step towards fixing a problem is realizing there is a problem. If you've realized you have a problem, then spend time bettering yourself rather than hating yourself. No one is born perfect and no one will ever be perfect. If you are trying to fix some things about yourself, don't worry about the other things that you aren't working on. Limit your focus on only your improvements, and fight on.
@@xx_amongus_xx6987 does NPD have a "fix"? and did they ask for advice?
Love this! Thank you 🙏Relevant and timely insights… I feel that we are in a narcissistic crisis born of our reliance on social media to constantly validate and quantify our “worth”.
I also felt quite narcissistic waiting to see my name scroll by in the credits as a patron 😆
It's so nice to see you again in my CZcams feed! Great video!
This is so good. I also think depression + covert narcissism can feed into each other. For instance, in the story, it’s very much on display. But what can happen, is one-since they don’t have any kind of emotional bandwidth to attend others-will isolate themselves. Then the smaller interactions they do have, will be endlessly iterated-as to how they come off as. Things get over magnified, but always in reference to: themselves and just what everything means. I notice these tendencies in myself. You said something key-“they take themselves too serious.” That’s it. Over inflation in the minds of others. Assume a kind of centrality everywhere you go.
I think your conclusions are baseless because they miss the primary basis of narcissism (i.e. lack of empathy). Narcissism is fundamentally about lack of empathy; it is a "cluster B" character.
In contrast, a cluster C (FEAR based) character may *appear* as covert narcissist and are sometimes (incorrectly) classified as such by diagnostic psychiatrist(s). Having said this about cluster C, when you properly assess them then you will find that they generally have empathy (possibly to a high degree) but are just highly inhibited (i.e. fearful) and want to die as a consequence.
Also look up "existential philosophy and philosophers" as they are the epitome of naval gazers and I highly doubt that they are narcissistic in general.
cluster C is fearful of what? i would really like to hear more of your thoughts on this video!
Ty
This was great, I must add though that cluster B disorders are not characterized by not having empathy. Most psychiatrists today agree that cluster Bs are generally marked by unpredictable, dramatic, or intensely emotional behavior. Not having empathy can be the case for especially ASPD (antisocial personality disorder, or what we often call "psychopathy" and "sociopathy") or maybe NPD (narcissistic pers disorder), but not all cluster Bs lack empathy, it's not a requirement. I have been diagnosed as an individual w various mental illnesses and "cluster B traits" (mostly resembling BPD, borderline personality disorder) and I am a highly empathetic and sensitive person, but since I feel "too much" my reactions can also seem "too much", and when hurt or triggered I often react in an explosive manner. But I am perfectly capable of having empathy for others and deeply care about them and empathize with them (in fact I feel like during childhood I was in a way conditioned to care more about other's feelings and needs than mine lol, but that's another topic), and so are other people w cluster B disorders.
Thank you so much for making that video. 💙
your videos are one of the only long videos I can watch with my terrible attention span. So thank you for that!!!
You're literally your own person. There's nothing wrong with thinking about yourself and what can be done do better yourself.
Are you selfish in a toxic way (affecting others negatively by your actions) ?
If not, then stop tripping yourself out and take care of yourself. There's a reason you're thinking about yourself. It's because you need to take care of yourself. That's what life's about.
If you care about other people, you'll make sure your life is in order. (so that you may be in a position to help) That requires thinking and self-analyzation.
If you don't care about people, well, at least try not to harm anybody in any way while you live out your journey in this world.
Love this quicker video turn out, my heart always warms when this woman's face graces my sub feed
I've always been overly-critical and negatively obsessed with myself. It's hard to me to make deep connections with people because I end up getting insecure about our friendship/relationship. I'm constantly ruminating about being "left out" of things, but at the same time I have the overwhelming urge to isolate myself. It's an endless cycle. I feel so trapped inside my mind, it's like it never turns off. I'm constantly worried about how others perceive me, if they notice these things about me. Some days I'm content and happy, and other days are so unbearable that I can't stop ruminating for a second. I'm constantly wallowing in my own misery and pitying myself. I want to change. I want to stop living like this. It isn't a life. I'm wasting all of my time. I can't afford actual therapy. I've been looking into stoicism and other mindful meditations, but it's hard to stay consistent. I don't know if im a narcissist, depressed, or just more neurotic than most. Everything is so blurry and jumbled at this point that I couldn't even begin to tell.
I get you! I'm pretty similar, I'm always wondering how others perceive me and if anything im doing is annoying someone or offending someone. It gets tiring, so i hope you start feeling better even if it is difficult. Idk if this might help but somedays i remember that there are worse things happening in the world so really, no one is paying attention to me.
This isnt a great mindset and i wont act like i fully understand what you are going through but i hope you find a way to deal with these thoughts. Just know you're valid and your feelings are valid. There isn't any rush to label yourself just try to see if anything helps you manage these thoughts. Take care
What is it that you fear?
Excellent video! Well researched, well articulated, you really did a great job! Thank you.
I look on it as the other way around Anya. Narcissism is a form of self hatred. But there you go.
Great!
The journey of this channel has been awesome and I am here for the psychoanalytics 👍
I love your personality and honesty, glad i found your channel!
I really needed this. Thank you.
This is interesting, I used to suffer from this. I remember one moment I really went "oh shit" was when I was complaining to my only long term friend about something, I think my relationship at the time, and he said "my mother just died and you weren't there for me." Not super angry either, just like he was disappointed but kind of expected it at the same time.
I think the book she cited is correct, it's a learned response to bullying and emotional abuse and is like a habit which can get much weaker.
Personally I don’t feel safe learning about this topic from someone that is not a licensed therapist? Thank you
same. there's so much mental health/psychology stuff out there that's misleading or just complete bs
agreed
I have seen enough "licenced" idiots in my life to believe license proofs anything.
Ok? Leave then?
Love the topic and the analysis you shared. Thank you!
First time watching, about to subscribe!
this is a great video, thank you!
I loved David's work but this story had me pissed. His stoic chest-puffing at depression as a malfunction of the mind caused by thinking about yourself too much is absolute dogwater in terms of understanding of what depression is.
Depression makes you think about yourself and your past all the time because its DESIGNED to do so. Just like pain is designed to focus your attention on problem areas so you address them before they become even bigger problems, depression is your psyche telling you to look at your past because there's a problem that will become a big one if not addressed. It's a feature not a bug.
Just as a side note, we can all see what became of DFW by blowing off dealing with his psychological issues.
Totally agree
I thoroughly disagree. You can't just talk about whatever and call it an essay, your argument has no real research or scientific backing to support it. Self-hatred is not narcissism.
I'm disappointed how long I had to look for a comment like this
The goalpost has been moved so far for what's considered narcissistic traits it's impossible that anyone couldn't be considered one at some point or another these days. It's sad how people have taken the most severe personality disorder and turned it into something mundane and superfluous and a label to sticker ex's and people you don't like with for massive reputational damage.
@@steviewolfe5790 seriously it's kinda worrying the amount of people who go out of their way to watch content about narcissists. Like I understand wanting to learn about this but if you look at the comment section it's just people bitching about the narcissists in their lives
U got damn right!
Yeah, she spends most of the video just quoting David Foster Wallace. We should probably see this video as it is: a video essay on the writing of David Foster Wallace without any clinical relevance.
There is hardly any research in here, plus she's dilluting the terms. Heavily. This whole video basically comes down to "everyone has a little bit of narcissism", just like how people go and say "everyone has a little bit of autism", or "everone has a little bit of ADHD". In either of these cases it just means that you don't really know what you're talking about.
I'm not sure how this video got in my feed, but I'm incredibly glad it did. Love this combination of psychology and literature.
Really great video! I read this story years ago and it really helped me shake this weird notion I had of depression as a kind of dark virtue. It helped me realize that identifying with depression via the same self-flagellating inner monologue as the protagonist wasn't secretly an indication that I was more sensitive, or self-aware, or enmeshed in some uniquely painful (and thus compelling) psychic struggle that others couldn't understand, but rather an exhausting loop for the ego to hide out in. When I start feeling depressed now, I try to take it as a signal that I need to mentally turn the volume up on the feelings and experiences of co-workers, friends, and family. Being an active and supportive listener for people that you care about ends up breaking the thought loop of being self-aware about the fact that being self-critical about being self-centered is making you self-loathe because of course it's self-centered to be so self-critical about the fact that you're self-aware that being self-critical etc. etc. more often than not, or at least has an infinitely higher success rate relative to that kind of rumination.
Great video! I myself am in my early 20s feeling very similar and this was super enlightening in way very few other resources I've found about depression are. Thanks.
I really appreciate this video. I believe I've acted in very covert narcissistic ways, especially when I was younger in high school and college. even though I've seen therapists about it and none of them have said I have NPD, I find myself getting stuck in that loop of self-hatred because I think there's something both intrinsically and pathologically wrong with me, and that I don't "deserve" to be easier with myself. I currently live alone in a town where I don't have any close friends, and my actual close friends live in other states, so I spend a lot of time by myself. I think the only thing that has actually helped me build my self-esteem in a healthy way has been working out and seeing the progress, and knowing that genuine self-improvement is possible.
This is incredibly insightful and helpful thank you for this. While I don’t think I’m a narcissist I have been going through self-hate brain loops so much to the point that it distracts me from more important matters and I’ve let it grow to the point of being narcissistic- gotta be part of the world again thank you for your help
i just discovered your channel and i think the topics you discuss are extremely interesting
Thank you so much for this video, I've told people in the past that I think excessive self-hatred is narcissistic and it's an insanely unpopular opinion. Some people hear this and think we're calling everyone a narcissist who's ever doubted themselves or whatever, but that is clearly not the case. There is also a difference between self-reflection and obsession. When all you think about all the time is only you, that's not self-reflection.
Edit: reading through the comments, I think some people were not paying attention to everything you said.
If people take this video to heart there'd probably call every insecure people a narcissist lol, not saying this isn't a thing i just dont think this video would do anyone any good (how common really is narcissism anyway)
Being alive is just too much sometimes.
Yeah but this video kinda makes it harder
I have a hard time understanding the video but from what I understand the world is just hard to live in
Great content! Thank you for sharing your
wisdom.
Very epic analysis, thank you 🙏
Good to see you!
I am a victim of a narcissistic parent. Going through therapy now (yay!) and reading some good books. One thing that I said to her during a forced therapy session (it was a pocket therapist) way back in my teens that I still think about is, "Who is more selfish? The person who thinks about themselves, or the person who needs everyone else to think about them too?"
Thank you for the video!
Yayyy, I love when you post! Good to see you
Thank you so much for this video! It’s quite challenging for me to see past my depressive moods and also how it affects those around me, I never know if I should take time to explore the root of it or occupy myself with other things so I won’t spiral in my own mind and/or burden my family especially. I’m in my early twenties and I’m glad you mentioned in this video that depression was something you dealt with when you were my age, it makes me hopeful that it won’t be something I’ll continue to struggle with. This was also very insightful as well, my biggest fear is becoming a (covert) narcissist 😅 omg
I think this started with some good points but then conflates depression with "pick me" syndrome, which I think everyone understands is a form of narcissism. Maybe it's just a mischaracterization of depression, but from the sounds of it (at least from your excerpts) the woman in the story didn't have depression.
The highest form of narcissism is having a you tube channel. Obsession with one's thoughts and information they find valuable. Great vid though
The algorithm has blessed me this day. Interesting analysis of an interesting topic. Subbed.
This was superb! Subscribed.
When I went to rehab we had a regular talk with the main psychologist there, he made a point to say that with both low and high self esteem you are in the state where you're assuming everyone's thoughts are about you. eg. low self esteem = "everyone hates me" and high "everyone loves me". I think the peaceful state is being able to be comfortable with the fact that at the end of the day, most people care about themselves, experience the same thoughts or that there is a natural ebb and flow to everyones ego. I don't think having an ego = narcissism, otherwise we'd all be narcissists. Too much of anything is toxic.. i think if you go around intentionally hurting people with no disregard of how that impacts others, then that's the problem.
How does depression make you less empathetic
Like it obviously is not true
And definitely not every depressed is like that nor is it a characteristic in depression
WOW, what timing. I was just saying this to a friend last night!! P.S. THANK YOU FOR THIS. Been feeling this for a long time ever since I shed my S.L.
"Blinkered" is a great word! Thanks for the video, very informative!
My therapist said to me that I do not only want to be the *best* at everything, but I also need to be the *worst* at situations. The best daughter my parents could ever have or the scape goat the whole family hates on, the thriving in life or the in more pain than anyone else around them, the thing is that I need to be the MOST at every situation and I keep thinking about that, it's really true although I don't know why
dang it's been more than a decade that i felt that about this story without quite being able to put my finger on what the cognitive dissonance emerging from the text was... until this video. thank you, that was dope
Never before have I needed something so badly and not known it until I received it. Instant sub.
My autism makes me self obsessed, to the point that doctors insisted I was depressed. I could not square that diagnosis with the fact that I'm really fucking happy as long as I can do only what I want. When I can't, I feel like an animal in a trap. I feel crazy. And if I force myself to act like a balanced human too long, my awareness of my flaws starts to accumulate into a kind of fatigue and I start resenting myself. I have to break away, find alone time, decompress, sometimes for long periods. It's all me, me, me during these times. I'll neglect my partners, my friends, my family, and indulge my own wants and needs instead. Until this, too, makes me resent myself, and I must recharge myself in the company of others. I absolutely relate to being "trapped in a you box." That's a great way of putting it.
title of the video: self hatred CAN be a form of narcissism
comments: she just called every depressed person a narcissist!
woooo Anya's back
I sympathetically subscribed, Anya.
Thank you for this video! It's the first one I've watched from you and it has led me to great places. I consider myself a self-loathing person, and although I've never bugged my friends or family about it and deal with it on my own, I've been on the edge of suicide and just want to remind anyone reading this that you are NOT just the other side of the coin of a "despicable narcissist". Quotes because, as you say in the video, some degree of that narcissist-related behaviors might just be quite necessary to lead an emotionally healthy life, and although I've yet to find the balance myself, it's good to hear about these things and be aware of the extremes of our behaviors, so we can take care of ourselves as well as others. Thank you for your research and hope to see a lot more from you :) Best wishes from Mexico
This honestly just sounds like you're saying she's too privileged to be in her trauma.
Who is she?
You mean the character
I am sceptical of the kind of models and types psychology invents for varieties of disorders and conditions. Take the "vulnerable inside but confident outside" vs "vulnerable outside, but confident inside" thing. This inversive variable just seems a little too neat. Are there any large scale studies to support this model? How were the types identified? Self reporting? Classification by experts? Is the pattern consistent across age, sex, gender, culture etc?
Or maybe someone just came up with it and shared it. People recall anecdotes and works out who they know that fits one or the other category. Before long it's a whole thing.
Why don't you start with the Wikipedia article about narcissism, instead of questioning everything ... like one Tucker Carlson 😘
At first, I was just watching this in the feed, but when you mentioned how proud you are of your recent productivity, I had to click so I could subscribe and like! Oh yeah and I’m really interested in the topic you’re covering you’re off to a great start, you have a bright CZcams future ahead of you!❤
Great vid thx for sharing
Wow that was incredibly interesting. As someone who's struggled a lot with depression and has a lot of friends that struggle with mental health, there was a lot of food for thought in here. I'm probably gonna be thinking a ton about this one and rewatch it multiple times. Also I really have to read that book now (if only there weren't already more books I want to read than I possibly have time for...)
When I was younger I was filled with self-hatred too, but I absolutely couldn't stand it and wanted to stop -- it's always been a struggle, but the fact that I never wanted to stay in that spot tells me my narcissistic tendencies were not that strong. My mother, on the other hand, was diagnosed as borderline and depressed, and I've become convinced she was also deeply narcissistic. She was stuck in a childish emotional state, so that she was always desperate for external comforting, and enraged when anyone tried to set boundaries. She was fully devoted to her own suffering, and demanded that everyone around her devote themselves to alleviating that suffering, which we could never do. She was a giant emotional vampire baby, and I had to cut off our relationship just to begin to get my own life together. Her case shows yet another way narcissism can function.
I'm puzzled by the Wallace story -- it sounds more like a case study than a short story. But it's certainly interesting, so I need to track it down.
Thanks for this fascinating discussion.
I learnt so much about myself in this video .....
Thanks for shedding some light ......
Now I know what's wrong!
I feel like a lot more should have been done to stress that Narcissism doesn’t mean you are a bad person and that people in this situation likely don’t even understand that they’re doing it. There’s way too much cultural baggage associated with Narcissism as a disorder and the perceptions of people who have it being moral failures in some way.
this video is the product of an unfounded hypothesis, glad so many people in the comments aren’t just taking your words at face value.