Blackmagic Cinema Camera 6K Full Frame | Dynamic Range Breakdown | VS Canon C70
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- #BMCC6KFF #blackmagicdesign #canonc70
In this comparison video. I am going to do a breakdown of the new @BlackmagicDesignOfficial Cinema Camera 6K Full Frame in two different ISO modes, 400 vs 800 and make the argument why 800 maybe the better "Native ISO". I will also be comparing the latitude performance against the Sub 10K Dynamic Range Standard, The Canon C70, and let's just say the results are quite interesting.
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00:00 - Introduction
01:50 - Quick Talk about Luminations between ISOs
03:27 - ISO 400 vs 800 Test #1
07:52 - The effects of shooting Constant Quality
09:30 - ISO 400 vs 800 Test #2
12:49 - When should you shoot 800 vs 400
14:22 - BMCC6K FF vs Canon C70
18:03 - My thoughts on the C70 vs BMCC6K Full Frame DR
Blackmagic Cinema Camera 6K Full Frame Dynamic Range Breakdown | VS Canon C70 - Krátké a kreslené filmy
James there is no native iso on a fully RAW camera. On the blackmagic website they give you a chart showing how iso values move the amount of stop above and below middle grey. When you change iso on bm cameras all your doing is moving the middle grey point up and down
So at iso 1000, which is the highest iso in the first gain, you get the largest amount of stops above middle grey. At iso 100 you only have a few stops over middle grey before clipping occurs. They picked iso 400 as the "native" iso because it gives similar stops above and below middle grey.
If you want the best out of this camera your going to have to learn when to use certain isos to best suit the scene
Appreciate the comment Jessie. Although we should also keep in mind that BRaw is not a “Fully Raw” codec as there’s some aspects that are debayered at the camera portion at the time of recording.
True. But all your doing by changing iso is moving the middle grey point up and down.
The highlight clipping point will not change on that camera from iso 100 up to iso 1000. Try it. Expose a window just before it clips at iso 100. Go to iso 1000 and the clipping point will be the same, but the rest of the image will be brighter because you just raised the artificial camera lighting (iso) up 4.5stops.
That's why the roll off is better at 800iso than 400iso. You gave the highlights another stop to roll everything off before the clipping point.
@@jessecumberledge4530 all good points my friend. Which is what I was trying to explain here. Hopefully I did well 😁
@jessecumberledge4530 I'm still determining whether I agree with your statement, but I may be wrong. At ISO 1000, the highlight recovery is about 5.3 stops above middle grey, but only 2.2 stops at ISO 100 and four stops at ISO 400. For that matter, shouldn't highlight recovery be better at ISO 1000 than at ISO 100 or 400? In other words, clipping should be worse at ISO 100 than at 1000.
@nigerian-nightmare no they both clip at the same point. All it does is artificially lift the gain of the image, Similar to if you just raised the shadows and midtones in post.
Really enjoying the longer-form content. Really enjoyed the comparison even if it's a bit over my head (and budget) at the moment. 😄
No problem. I am glad you enjoyed the content.
I agree with you the BMFF just has that film look to it; to think about it all the black magic cameras have that distinct look to them. One of these days I am going to get myself one, I have colored some footage from the 4k before, so likely it would be that model. Great video my good sir.
Thank you man!
Thanks for the breakdown, very insightful, was wondering how you managed to light the set up? I really dig the look/mood.
Thanks. I only used one light. We exposed for the sun outside right up to the clipping. Then I used a Forza 500 with the fresnel and aimed it at the pillar in the ceiling to bounce over the subject, then used the barn doors to avoid spilling on the background.
That’s it!
Thanks @JamesJacksonFilmz for the insight and breakdown, much appreciated.
Awesome video man! What LUT did you use for the C70 shot?
Thank you I appreciate that man. And there is no Luts. This was straight using resolve, color management.
I've always struggled with getting a nice image out of the C70. Completely agree about the Blackmagic feeling more 'rich' in its image.
Have you tried shooting in C-Log 3? The drop off of 2 stops in the blacks may help.
May I ask what shutter was used for your shots in the Woods? And did you grab the ISO 400 Still from complete standstill or a pan. What you perceive to be a difference in detail to me looks like it could be slight motion blur. Also technically since ISO 400 grants more latitude below grey, shadow detail and noise performance should be better when exposed correctly.
Thanks for the comparison. I noticed highlight recovery was not checked in BRaw settings, curious if that would make a difference. As far as highlight roll off tests, I recommend manipulating the BRaw settings to create a custom gamma curve. My process: film in-camera iso 400, expose ETTR and protect highlights, in post change to ISO 100, check highlight recovery, increase midtones, lower highlight roll off all the way, dial in shadow roll off to taste, lastly changing exposure slider if needed…all of this done in the BRaw tab.
I know it would be cumbersome, but would you be so kind to upload the c70 and bmcc6k files of your kitchen and offer them for download? I’m debating between these cams and would love to compare them with my workflow and without CZcams compression. If not, no sweat. 🙏🏼
The highlight recovery does not come out the same when shooting. ISO 800 vs 400. 800 still shows the better highlight rollofff.
I’m personally not a fan of ETTR it leaves limitation of exposure.
Huge difference in Dynamic range between the C70 and the Bmpcc 6K FF. The C70 is really impressive.
C70 latitude performance technically speaking is in a class few have achieved
Thank you for the comprehensive comparison!
Have you had any issues with image banding bellow iso 320?
And horizontal banding sensor smear in contrast scinarios or low light
I have not shot below ISO 400 and the vast majority of my shots have been at ISO 800. So I can’t say of any issues at 320 and below.
As for horizontal banding, initially I thought I did notice in one shot, however it turned out I forgot to switch off proxies in resolve 😁.
@@JamesJacksonFilmz interesting.
I’d love if you could investigate this further with your model with some quick tests.
I have had to return 2 cameras and I’ve been in contact with CineD who have said they have found same issues plus more in their lab test (article coming soon).
It’s all about shifting the dynamic range.
A user should be able to shoot at iso 300 if it’s desired for the shot, however strange things happen and it almost looks like image compression or a 6 bit image.
I’ve had the same issue, I tested with diff ISO settings and also changed f stop on the lens, I’ve seen horrifying banding noise, then I tested my bmpcc 4k, no noise at all. I mean, no banding or crazy dashcam noise. So I returned. New one is coming soon, hope this one be good. Otherwise I’ll give up on this version and wait for new version in 2050 😂
As far as I know Sensor smear is a CMOS Sensor issue, that can always occur when pushing a sensor to it‘s limits. Years ago we had a customer encountering sensor smear on a C300mk2 when shooting a dimly lit scene against a blown out window, basically pushing past the sensors dynamic range as well es severely overexposing it. We replaced two C300mk2 against two which Canon send us that had some different firmware. I did a test and managed to create the same sensor smear on two different C300mk2 (though the one with the different firmware had slightly less), an Alexa Plus, Sony F5 as well as a RED Camera (unfortunately) I can’t remember which one exactly), to varying intensities. Long story short: CMOS smear is not necessarily a defect, but may as well be a technical limit.
Exchanging one camera for another one of the same type might not do anything, unless the manufacturer has rather large spread in sensor quality.
Greetings!
Can you do a comparison between the c70 and the fuji Xh2s ? I have watched your video about DR and i was surprised when you got the Xh2s alongside the big boys like Arri.
Just out of curiosity, how could not be the C70 brighter at 800 when you shoot at f2.5 on the C70 and f2.8 on the Bmpcc? Am I missing something here…? On the other hand, this “more light” in the shadows on the C70 may not be the higher DR as you are exposing to not clip the image in both cameras? Thanks for sharing
It’s more light because as I explained C-log 2 makes the images brighter.
The reason there’s a difference in aputure because the c70 is using a speed booster to match the full frame look of the BM (I compensate with the NDs and thus adjusting the aputure slightly.)
The exposure is the same because the 18% middle gray is the same on both cameras. I am also using the exact same lens on both cameras.
I say the C70 is brighter because the shadows are more lifted in Canon’s C-Log 2 compared to majority of other cameras log profiles, thus the camera is more sensitive to when light hits sensor. This isn’t something I just know, many high end DPs told me that they like Canon’s C-log 2 because it naturally sees more of the image with less light.
This is something that I continuously found whenever comparing the C70s C-log 2 profile to other cameras (especially Blackmagic’s film profile) the image always appeared brighter even though they have the same 18% middle gray exposure using the exact same lens.
The C70 is definitely has higher dynamic range as you see more into the highlights and shadows vs the BM
Thanks for the explanations. I see more clearly know what you meant in the video, and the thoroughly way in which you have tested the cameras. As said before, thanks for sharing ;)
@libraproducciones no problem man
does the 18-35mm cover full frame at focal lengths other than 30mm?
It starts to cover at the 28mm length.
wish I knew what your settings are on Davinci resolve?
Resolve color management with DWG/Intermidiate as the color space pipeline.
Hello! Tell me how the 18-35 works with a full-frame BM?
There’s definite vignetting below 28mm beyond that it’s very usable. Also you can go into one of its S35 modes and you’re good to go.
Iso 800 has better highlight rolloff. It would be nice of BM acutally provided us with the log curves for each iso or the dynamic range allocation for each iso. I know they did it for the pocket 4k. I think the image from the BM at ISO 800 is superior to the c70 in terms of filmic quality, more contrast, high saturation, and appears to lean more into magenta. You can probably color grade the c70 to match, but if the BM is giving it to you as a default it’s where I’d want to start. There’s more information in the c70, but not information I’d necessarily want to keep.
Appreciate the comment my guy!
Yeah I still love the C70 and it is the workhorse camera. But I’m with you that the BM full frame is giving me more of the image I was lookin g for and there’s a natural 3 dimensional pop to the footage as well
I think the C70 probs has much more dynamic range... still waiting for that cined 6kff test.
@@thomasbede1896 c70 definitely has more dynamic range as I mentioned in the video. But it also tends to be more flat because of c-log 2’s aggressive shadow lifting
Despite having better DR maybe, the Cinema Camera 6K just looks way nicer using just RCM.
😎
🙏🏽
I like the c70 look better I’ll get a head seeing the BM look all the time
Funny thing is I actually find the BM camera more digital than the C70. The blacks are crushed in the bmpcc and the highlights roll off is more abrupt. The C70 image is superior especially if you know how to grade. It's a much more better base image.
Interesting points. I don’t necessarily agree with the pocket being more digital. The c70 definitely has more dynamic range, but the pocket has more behavior of film than the C70.
Actual film typically has at best stops of performance under and falls off really quickly. The BMCC6K follows a curve more characteristic of film, while the c70 see more latitude in the shadows with C-Log 2.
There is a consequence with the C70 in C-Log 2 and that is if you try to bring those shadows into a proper display (I.e. rec709) they more often than not make the image feel more flat than three dimensional like the Cinema Camera 6K.
Just some food for thoughts 😉
The blackmagic has a much more pleasing picture in my eyes.
The C70 image is absolutely better to my eyes but this is all subjective to personal taste. I find the C70 has more of that filmic look than black magic and I have owned both cameras.
I find it interesting the C70 is brighter despite being S35 a full frame.
Theoretically the cinema camera should be brighter because it physically allows more light
While I will admit I am no camera engineer, I believe There’s two reasons for the brighter image from the C70. The first is as I mentioned in the video, C-log 2. Canon Log 2, unlike many other log profiles, does not need a lot of light in order to get a properly exposed, because it naturally lifts the shadows so aggressively.
The second is the Canon C70 was using the speed booster for this shoot, which possibly lift the image more with the additional glass going in between the lens and sensor, even though middle gray was exposed the exact same.
Luke you seem to be severely confused about how a larger sensor affects the image
@LukeBroadhurstFilms
FullFrame sensors are not necessarily more sensitive than smaller sensors.
The same amount of light spread over a larger area will actually decrease exposure.
All else being equal a FullFrame Sensor of a given resolution will be more sensitive than a smaller sensor of the same resolution because the sensels are larger allowing more light to be capured.
If all else being equal comparing a high resolution fullframe sensor to a low res S35 sensor, the sensels of the smaller sensor might actually be larger than those of the fullframe sensor allowing more light to be captured with the smaller sensor.
@JamesJacksonFilmz
The Speedbooster shifts exposure because it reduces the larger than S35 image circle of the lens to a smaller S35 image circle to capture more light an a smaller sensor area.
This should not affect your result if you exposed for middle grey.
Exposing for middle grey identically might actually make a difference though.
After a quick search I found that Sony recommend exposing middle grey für 41% IRE in slog3 on their current cinema line (FX9, FX6 …). ARRI on the other hand state that the signal value for middle grey is 39% in logC3 (Alev3) and 28% in logC4 (Alev4). Therefore exposing to the same value on different sensors should yield varying results.
@@kunstspielklavier185 hi there. I compensated for the difference in exposure based on the speed booster and also exposed for what canon recommended middle grey.
What you are seeing is the difference of log curves (C-log 2 vs BM Film) as I described in the video.