Small Batch CNC Turning for the Fab Shop
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- čas přidán 13. 09. 2024
- The welding shop called and asked for more standoffs to be machine only they need to be made from 1018 steel this time. The machine that they go on is being modified to hopefully make a better and longer lasting repair and to prevent long down time in the event of another failure. This updated design is being welded onto a steel plate that will then be bolted onto the machine instead of directly welded allowing the maintenance crew to replace them if needed.
CNC turned in the @MilltronicsUSAInc ML16II toolroom lathe. #cncmachining #cnclathe #milltronics #abom79
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It’s always great to watch your progress on learning new skills. Well done.
sometimes you have to lose to learn how to win !!! one of the main reason i love this channel , Abom will show you no matter how long you been doing what you do , your gonna have bad moments,
Love for learning, even after decades in the industry. Abom's enthusiasm is addictive.
A very interesting video. I have learned as much from failures like this as from successes. A stop to add a dab of Anchor Lube in the hole and on the tap would have eliminated that breakage. Spray coolant doesn’t have enough lubricity for horizontal tapping.
As a CNC turning machine operator I can assure you sir: that is too much speed for that tappy tap tap!
In metric threads I won't go over 500rpm with a tap in tool steel (1.2344). (I'd use like 300 on a M10 (which is similar to yours)
Thanks for your great video! Love it!
Others before me also meantioned that.
It’s one thing to show your expertise with something you have done a million times, but it’s a whole different thing to put your learning process right out there on the internet. That’s courage and honesty. 👏👏👏
Floating tap holder Is way to go I’ve use them many times over the past 20to 30 years they are not new but they work great started using them on manual machines
I dunno if you even read the comments, but 99% chance there's an issue with your post proccessor on that tap. Normally it's something like
G84 Z- TAPDEPTH F TAPFEED
But you sometimes have to have to do an M29 S SPINDLESPEED to get it to sync.
I'd talk to milltronics before you start going down the floating tapping head route. They have a bunch of problems in themselves.
There are no failures, just moments to learn something new.
It got done,Adam.Interesting to see all the detailes.Thank you.
Mr. Booth if you tap in CNC machine , please reduce your RPM to that amount that you use with your Flexarm.
It's either a successful process, or a successful learning opportunity.
Man, those taps come out and they look like soooo many bolts throughout my life.
Having a few problems makes for a good video. Be safe
Thanks Adam, only issue is Ms. Abbey did not make an appearance. You guys are so impressive. Those smiles are contagious! You got this CNC stuff. Thank you
Good day! Some points to improve the process. Use a metal net with magnets to capture the details. This will protect the CNC and the surface of the parts. Go slowly with the last part of fine-cut, after that change tools and stop the program by using a workpiece limiter such as a drill. Then finish the program and begin the next cycle.
for taping , slow spindle speed to about 350 rpm g97, also make sure you are using the correct feed rate and code for tapping, for turning should be able to cut .150 a side maybe even .200 . that should take no more than 1:30 and yes I've been on a CNC lathe since 1979,
.200 a side with that little lathe?
I'd like to see you try that.
Dreaming of a day when a few machines like this are in my garage!
The milltronics machine doesn't have the drives synchronized accurately enough for rigid tapping. Notice how the spindle is continuously spinning before the tap is fed into the part. Thats why a floating holder is needed for that machine. On a haas when rigid tapping the spindle will stop then when the tap is fed in it will rotate in sync. True rigid tapping allows the same hole to be re-ran multiple times. You cant do that if the rotation of the chuck isnt oriented.
Agree, also should be using a spiral point gun tap in a floating holder. RPM seems too fast..
If that was true, how could it cut a thread? It's the same problem-move in Z in sync with the spindle rotation.
If it is jamming up, then most likely something's wrong in the post.
@@PaulSteMarie yeah that's a good point, so how does that machine handle single point threading? All CNC machines can do right or left handed tapping but not all can do rigid tapping. There's a difference.
@caploader111 I'm no machining expert, but I think the reason not all machines say they can rigid tap, even though they can single point thread has to do with backlash. You can single point with all the backlash in the world and not have to worry much about it. With rigid tapping, however, you have to run the tap back out, taking backlash into account. I also think taps might just e a bit more fussy on the accuracy of the synchronization, but I could be wrong about that.
CNC machines were doing rigid tapping in the eighties. Lack of lubrication is the problem in this case. Also should have used a spiral flute tap.
❤ I like watching you trying to learn something new even though I do miss some of the old school jobs.
So i work on Mazak CNC lathes but i should imagine the same will go for all CNC lathes since they mostly all have the same guts to them. When you initiate a tapping cycle, the Z axis feed and spindle synchronise with each other. When the tap reaches the bottom of the hole the spindle needs to decelerate in preparation to run in reverse and in turn run the feed direction in reverse also. Its during this state where the Z feed can partially unsync the feed from the spindle, very minimal but enough to shatter a tap especially in steels. In an application like this i'd recommend the use of a tapping head since any unsynchronised feed is automatically taken up by the head quill automatically retracting rather than using the helix of the tap to try and pull itself out the holder but ultimately snapping instead since its held securely
Thanks for sharing Adam
60% of the time, it works 100% of the time.
I thought that the chuck speed was awfully fast. The flex arm is considerably slower.
Still a nice job Adam hope you get the tapping sorted out👍
It still amazes me after all these years that we can use coolant to tap at all. For all other manual and power tapping, we use cutting oil or anchor lube but in a cnc, we use coolant.
Coolant is lubrication also
We tap with coolant all the time. No problem.
@loukola5353 Yes I know. We've done it for many years successfully. I'm just surprised, that's all.
We do a few of these tap drill operations in 4-5xd deep holes, shop made square duplex tool holder with a split and a couple clamp bolts, one is the tap drill, other is the tap, you use the same tool pocket, but a different offset. One trick is that you don't tighten the tap that tight so it has a bit of wiggle, there is a square to catch the tap tang, and it feeds and retracts just fine. (This is with a shop made pneumatic barfeeder too so you know its only seeing marginal supervision) speeds up the cycle and in a job shop where you are making a lot of different parts leaving commonly used tools in their pockets and x zeroed and z referenced to the #1 tool does save you a lot of time setting up, so getting a tool twofer out of a single pocket is pretty cool. If your pitch (feed for tapping) is correct then I would guess your tap was off center, first hole with a new tap should have held up to marginal coolant, fail down the line for sure, but the first hole should have suffered through. Other thought is cut the speed in half, an extra few seconds on a tap cycle isn't any crime and it pays for itself in tooling fast.
Another great video Adam, keep them coming!
My advise for the tap breaking would be to slow the spindle down, and use tapping oil instead of coolant
To me it looked to fast spin for tapping. Nice work btw. I think I've mentioned that it would be better to make steel part (in the video when making aluminium ones) because of all the fails at that point of the machine. Keep the good work. Love your videos.
Based on what I saw in the video. The spindle does not stop fast enough for true rigid tapping. Look into a float tap holder that allows the tap to feed a little deeper as the spindle is stopping. The holder is spring loaded to allow the tool to pull out slightly. Then, program the first part shallow by 5-6 revolutions and see what you get. Slow RPM's are required for float tapping.
That sounds like a wonderful plan.
You got all the cool stuff
That machine may not support rigid tapping. Contact Milltronics to find out for sure. If it doesn't, you will need a floating tap holder. Also, I know you like spiral flute taps for blind holes. However, you really should try a thread forming tap. They are a lot more stable in a CNC, but can be used in a manual machine by hand or a Flex arm. Thread forming taps do require a different tap drill size. A 3/8-16 form tap calls for a 0.347" drill.
If you want to have another go at tapping in the lathe I would suggest a few things. Quickest and cheepest drill out for a 65% thread rather than a 75%. Way less torque needed to make the thread with almost all of the strength of the 75%. Next step up is try using a form tap. Way bigger stronger core of the tool and no chip problems since your forming the threads check the drill size though because its probably not on the chart. The threads are also stronger since the grain structure of the metal is deformed and hardened slightly during the tapping process. Most expensive option use the form tap with a Tapmatic Syncroflex II tool holder. If you find that the problem is the dwell at the bottom when the chuck needs to change direction a syncro holder will help reduce the shock the the tap feels.
Form taps works necessarily with oil not with coolant
@@petkoivanov9020 They work fine with coolant. I have done thousands of holes in all kinds of materials with form taps with just coolant and they gauge just fine. MAYBE they would last longer with oil but I think 2000 holes tapped per tap is enough life for a single tap.
Hello Adam, I believe that one of the advantages of ridged tapping is that you can run the tap in part way, run it back out and and run it back in again a bit deeper repeatedly without losing axial alignment. Not something that can be done with a floating tap holder. This allows tapping of deep holes and tapping of difficult materials. I would check with your experts first as I haven't personally had the opportunity to do rigid tapping myself.
Im sorry that I honestly cant give you a more precise name for it - but where I work we always use a specific kind of holder when threading. Its specifically made for tapping - it gives "play" so you can both yank on the tap and press it further back in the holder.
Something like this:
"Tapping Collet Form ET (ER) with length compensation"
Almost every toolbrand makes their own it seems.
99% of my work is running a CNC mill but I remember having massive problems using threading taps on a small CNC lathe some years ago. Every since I changed to a collet holder with length compensation - my taps never broke =)
he mentions that at 34:34
I'm not a machinist, but that really is amazing to watch. Too bad about the tap.
Pretty cool machine, Adam. I'm sure you will master the issues that come up. I hope it won't cost you too much money in the process. It sounds like you are getting good support from the manufacturer.
Seems if you're shooting for tenths accuracy it's better to indicate each tool holder pocket and not presume they were all milled and installed perfectly in a plane. It's easy to check how close they are to each other.
Hi Adam, this is Michael from Argo Machine Tools inc. in Montreal since 1948. My heart goes out to you in realizing that there are issues ridged tapping on your lathe. I have a slew of CNC lathes and ridged tapping has never been an issue. I have been so happy to get away from floating tapping holders since I have unloaded all my screw machines. I am not offering you any suggestions however sometimes using a 3 jaw chuck as opposed to a collet chuck ( which is much lighter ) can sometimes create a snyc issue when reversing during a tapping cycle. I am not at all familiar with the supplier of your lathe but it still should not be an issue. On your video even the drilling sounded sketchy and once I heard that I did not have much hope for your tap. In my humble opinion if you wanted to stay USA made ( and I agree ) next time think HAAS. This is what I personally run despite all the negative feedback you have heard over the years. All the best Adam. I even watch your BBQ shows.
Welding shop to the customer rescue again
Well… I’ve been around that airport equipment in the past. It gets a half year of wear in one shift.. add in poor engineering… like the cylinder is not in line … the mount plate has too much flex, etc… and it becomes a nightmare
Great job. Thank you 😊
spooling down the spindle after each pass is killing your times, because once you spin it down, you have to wait for it to come back up to speed before starting the next movements. find a way to disable that, that way the only time your waiting for the spindle is when you actually changing spindle speeds
He's got it in css mode. Spindle speed is proportional to tool position
I wondered if that was something as a default in the programs or if Adam set those RPM's. I would agree, those up and down RPM's really aren't all the necessary, I do get the idea but I don't believe anything is gained in the end. Some of the speeds I noticed are super fast, faster than I have noticed in any other CNC process.
The tap broke because the rpms were to high. There are charts from the tap brand which show you the max. rpm / material / tap size
It was 250 RPM and well inside of the MFG's recommended speed
Is he telling us that after all the holes he has ever drilled, he never realized he could leave a chamfer with the spot drill?
I just ordered a set of 2mm end mills, solid carbide and had them deliver to your Delano St address. It's up to you to determine the speeds and mount them properly. I will require 10 each 0.1 inch thick, 2mm center drilled, non rusting material and hard as steel in diameters 2 inch, 1.75 inch, 1.5 inch, 1.25 inch and 1.0 inch. You may put these into one of those wet stone vibrating tubs to burnish sharp edges off and polish a bit. Enjoy this training session.
When you get the tools, please notify me or show the video on yt while you make them.
Good job Adam
Machine Coolant sucks for taping, optional stop and anchor lube, and run a lower speed
Agree, we always lube when taping steel.
Lubrication isn't the main reason that tap snapped... We run water based coolant since 15 years and we have drilled and tapped 10s of thousands of holes and never had a brand new tap break on first use..
Use a floating holder for the tap. You still might have problems with chips getting in front of the tap. I'd use a roll tap and some good tapping oil instead of coolant.
RPM was way to high for the tapping process and with a thread that deep with a fairly small size tap I would go with a peck tapping cycle and take probably 4 pecks to get that deep.
The flaw with the machine would be it's made of aluminium. After a large number of cycles those areas become brittle and snap.
There is the same flaw with aluminium aircraft parts. Thus the reason they use a special system to check for cracks.
You need to use a smaller chip breaker to stop that strength. You need to insert with about a .10 chip breaker on it to made it chips.
Ur CNC needs the ability to perform synchro tapping for this - is it able to? But I had the impression that the tool broke before it reached the reversal point.
The time it takes to make these means they must be a few hundred dollars each
I'd probably buy a bunch of cheap PRC tools to test the ridgid tapping then it's not that much of a loose.
Yes, you would!
I'd love to see that piece split open with an angle grinder so we can see how well the thread was cut. If the pitch wasn't right I'd expect to see deformed threads.
My initial thought was that it might be a feed issue. I worked sole Autodesk support folks who modified the code and we ran it a second time. This time in plastic. We also ran the original in plastic. Both threads came out fine. So thinking this was just a chip issue.
30:33 ... Anchorlube has been around for a LONG time!!! :)
When I worked building the Nuke Plant, we uses Anchorlube for ALL stainless steel drilling tapping!!!
That was over 40 YEARS ago!! .. Anchorlube was a plant favourite!! With over 3000 employees on site during construction?? ... We went through Many Hundreds of containers!!! The Squirt bottles were the favourite delivery method .
Hi, from Tijuana,mexico
Could you blow out the hole with air, put a dab of Anchor Lube in the hole instead of using the coolant fluid before tapping the threads?
Could it be an idea to make the chuck run slower and pause before reversing to lessen the load on the tap?
Most likely the machine does not do rigid tapping. Not all machines can. On a lot of them it is an option when you first buy the machine.
You may have to use a floating tap holder.
home shop / old shop video would be nice .
You should cut that piece in half on both sides, split it open and check how tool did with cutting threads
The broken tap fragment in the hole is super hard metal. It would dull or break a bandsaw or hacksaw blade I think. Maybe there are hacksaw or bandsaw blades that can cut it.
@@timothypirnat3754 abrasive cut off disc.
@@timothypirnat3754 you can use angle grinder on last stretch of material, I don't think it cares if tap is hard ;)
@@Michal_Ce Gotcha. I never thought of abrasive disc/angle grinder.
I tap 1018 quite often on CNC lathe but I blow it clean and use cutting oil with a spiral flute tap. Would love to see that gcode to make sure it's correct.
Adam, as far as I know you cannot rigid tap on a lathe. (although I stand to be corrected buy any of your viewers)You will definitely need a floating collet holder. Where I work we have two Mazaks and an XYZ lathe, they all require a floating collet holder to tap. On a milling machine the spindle is fitted with an encoder to ensure the RPM is deceleration is synchronized with the Z axis movement. This does not happen on a lathe. Also because of the size of the chuck even a 6" chuck there is a lot of inertia so it will not stop in a controlled way like a milling machine spindle. If you buy a floating collet you should have no further problems. Keep up the good content, keep learning. I enjoy your video's here in the UK.
Simply not true in today's age
Absolutely true. Without a floating holder, no tapping is possible on a CNC lathe
@@petkoivanov9020 Even tormach machines can. Every CNC lathe with c-achsis capabilities can right tap. I don't know any new machine without this features.
Of course you can rigid tap on a lathe. I do it all day long on a Haas.
@@petkoivanov9020, you can do true rigid tapping with a lathe spindle if your machine is equipped with the option.
been years since ive been at a cnc lathe, but we used to clean the holes and put some oil before cutting, maby reduce the speed a little ? me thinking the thin tap "twists" a bit if it starts gumming up, and therefor break
When you find out the issue with the CNC tapping, we would like to know. I know it should work or there would be significant specs for size and depth. Thanks.
It broke bc the spindle speed and z axis feed weren't synchronized.
Does milltronics use canned cycles. I dont know if fusion posts canned cycles. if the lathe is conversational maybe try using that to program the tap. I agree that a floating holder iis probably needed for that machine.
Looks like head speed was far to fast for the type of tap used.
At 22:58 it looks to me like there are threads all the way to the face. Adam wasn't taking 1/4" cuts, so if those were threads at the face then the tap did bottom out.
I though they were scratch marks from the drill
@@thedodger7030 That's a very coarse pitch for drill scratches. If the tap did bottom out it would have left shallow cuts at the thread pitch (shallow because it's the tip of the tap) and that's just what it looks like. That is consistent with bottoming out caused by the spindle not stopping instantly at the finishing depth. However I can't explain why the broken portion then moved back up the hole. Perhaps we will get a clearer picture when we see what Adam does differently on the next attempt.
Your Flex CNC needed a software fix for the rigid tapping. Does your lathe need a software fix? Just thinking outside the box.
What if you added a dab of tap lube to the tap when you go into to pull the stock out and turn off the flood coolant. I would think this would be the same as your flex tapping.
60 % of the time, it works every time
Hi Adam,
Really enjoy your videos.
Just a hobbyist here.
I have a 2007 HAAS TM1P Vertical Mill and many years ago I did some Peck Tapping on my machine. Here is the title of a video that describes what I am talking about.
"Simple Peck Tapping Using a G84 Tapping Cycle - Haas Automation Tip of the Day"
Not sure if your Lathe and associated software supports this function or not. If it does this may???? be of some help in tapping deep holes.
🙂
Good job Adam. Now let's have BBQ & Bourbon! 😊
I heard the clutch skip just when the tap came to a stop. There is no feature of clutch on the CNC lathe for tapping.
Aww, snap! Probably a bit slower, and some deceleration to come to a gradual stop?
For taping slow the spindle speed way down?
I don't know why he feels the need to run everything at 100%
form tap it and use the largest carbide drill you can while keeping the minor diameter in spec for the thread fit. no need for anchor lube if your coolant concentration is high enough. I run at 10% on the mill and have had zero failures form tapping 304
My concern is, why is it breaking? A lot of force doing something.
Time they invented an CNC "through tap anchorlube dispensing unit" ...🤔...hm...
It appears that tap broke right when the spindle stopped then reversed.
21:05 !!! EXCELLENT idea, I did NOT think of that!! ... Good content too, this will be interesting!! and educational!
I don't know anything about this other than viewing your videos for years. Could you program the tap operation to go in 2 or 3 steps instead of one deep pass?
Ótimo conteúdo
Saudações do Brasil 🤝
23:04 was it just going too fast?
It’s almost like the mass of the spindle kept it spinning vs a hard stop causing a bottom out
A fantastic learning experience
If the spindle speed and tool position are truly sychronised, the slowing down, stopping and speeding-up in reverse should take care of these details. It didn't bottom-out.
There's something else going on and I'm looking forward to finding out what it is.
If Adam simply goes to a tapping head, it will certainly fix the problem, but we'll never know what the problem really was.
Adam, what’s the RPM of the Flex Arm ? You might want to try that speed for the spindle.
could you try to have a pause in the program so you can slap some anchorlube on the tap before the threading?
No need. The Anchorlube could be added when he places the workpiece in the chuck. It would easily stay on the tap until it was used. Another optimisation could be to drill the part all the way through, maybe even with a smaller diameter drill. This would mean he wouldn't have a nub to face off after parting off, though it might raise a bur which would need to be taken off with a Noga deburring tool or a countersink deburring tool. Depends on if the client would allow the through-hole, although it could be useful for part positioning/registration when they weld it on to their plate.
The tap breaking had nothing to do with lack of lube/coolant. It broke bc the spindle speed and z axis feed weren't synchronized.
Do you think the part spinning so fast is what broke the tap?
Tapping a bit to fast I think also
Hi Abom try very slow speed maybe it can work
Does this machine definitely perform rigid tapping. If it does not then the feed is usually a little slower and the floating tap holder takes up the difference. If this is the case then perhaps the rigid held tap was fed at the wrong feed.
What RPM would you run this at?
@@MechanicalAdvantage I don't do much high volume work, with the tapping cycle generally quite short I rarely go above 250rpm with a floating holder.
I agree, 19:00, slow spindle speed for tapping, ans drill hole 1/8" deeper for clearance 20:15 .
@@tates11 The RPM for this tapping operation was 250
There's no reason I can see to not drill that hole all the way through to get coolant flow? 23:32
Was the tap was trying to compress coolant inside the hole? I'm not a machinist but love the channel.
Form tap cold rolled all day long. Those stringy chips when cut tapping are a nightmare
If your feed and spindle speed are not locked/synced properly then that won't help. When he gets that sorted or has a floating tap holder then you can play with tap options.
Your tap holder needs a clutch and don't use coolant, put some grease in the hole and tap and run it with like 100 rpm
Are you using new video equipment? The vids look noticeably brighter and sharper
I think he is starting to record in 4K now
I have been watching you from the beginning and do love your content the way you are just true to yourself, but I really don't write comments....you, mainly a manual machinist dabbling in the CNC world. What tolerances did you hold on your old pacemaker what you were making your large shafts at motion... Being a machinist myself and working mainly in the steel mill industry making anything from small shafts and heats to large rolls for hot mills...we didn't machine down to bearing for specs on the lathes...we run old 60s Russian Stanko gear heads lathes....and we left a large part in overnight and we would see a .010 sag I. The til stock or spindle bearings and even in the change of seasons..we would final grind all journals to precise size...
Sorry gears not heats
That’s awesome thanks for sharing. What machines do you run ?
Check if the threading cyckle beed an M code before the cycle, like in a Fanuc system. Or maybe that machine cant do sync threading.
I would try an optional stop before the tapping cycle and add some Anchor Lube to the tap. Peter at Precision does this. Also I would set the tapping RPM to dead slow…like 20 rpm to eliminate any shock loading. The lathe should know when the spindle speed goes to zero so it can reverse and start retracting. If it is smart enough to do thread milling it should be smart enough to do rigid tapping.