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I understood the sign to say "during public holidays then there is no maximum time limit".
Mine too, but it should be clearer,
Then they should write "during" instead of "except". Except (potentially) negates the *full* paragraph before it.
@@matthewharris-levesque5809 And is it midnight to midnight, dawn to dawn, or if you park there on a holiday, can you leave it there for more than a "day", however that's defined?
Should read:
Ticket required
Mon-Sun (including public holidays)
8:30 am - 6:30 pm
Maximum stay 4 hours
No maximum stay on Public Holidays
Most excellent!
I would also replace the no parking symbol with “No Parking’ again just for clarity.
On ALL days, you are not allowed here between Midnight and 8:30am.
Should read: No time limit on public holidays. Simples
I agree with your rewording. The sign is deliberately worded to catch people, skullduggery !!
I read that sign as "Dishonest operator. Do NOT park here under any circumstances, whatsoever." 🤦♂
The problem is that, although it is intended to encumber you with an obligation to pay on public holidays, it is deliberately worded to mislead consumers into thinking that they don't have to pay so that the operator can score a nice fat penalty notice. After all, it can also be understood to mean that parking is both unlimited and free on public holidays. Crooks, like this, should be reported to Consumer Affairs for deceptive trade practices.
It would be very, very easy to have made this notice unambiguous. What's more the authority (Royal Parks?) must have made up these signs many times before, so would know this wording was wrong. And why is there no punctuation? One wants to believe bureaucrats do their best for us, but this is a deliberate money grab.
Deliberately?
@@mattwoodford1820 Yes, absolutely. These guys know exactly what they're doing.
I'm enough of a jaded skeptic to agree with this view. When it comes to the parking enforcement industry in the UK there are zero "honest mistakes", they know what they are doing.
I mean, I also think it is most likely true but I don't see any reasonable grounds to suspect beyond the circumstantial. However, due to the reach of this video, it would appear that the general public are mislead by this sign so it does require swift resolution
The word "except" creates the problem. It suggests normal operation of the car park is suspended in terms of payment. Its removal would make the sign clearer.
Why didnt they simply state in the middle part: 'no time limit applies on public holidays' without the 'except public holidays' twaddle. How the hell do these people get these jobs?
To save paint and increase profit 😅
No twaddle here, I understood it perfectly, as I'm sure the hundreds of people that pay for their parking here on public holidays will agree.
I hadn't got down far enough to see this before I made the same point above.
"Except public holidays no maximum time limit" by general rules of English should be interpreted as unless there is a public holiday there is no maximum time limit. Making the 4 hour limit on public holidays only! LOL
@@nintynomreader So you think that generalising from yourself to everyone else is OK? Many people obviously reached an incorrect conclusion from what is not only a poorly-worded notice, but is also a poorly-worded bureaucratic communication that comes at the end of a long, long list of such communications. It really isn't surprising that so many people look at such communications and ask themselves "Now what are the possibilities for what they could be meaning by this?" A much better wording would have been to replace the section from "Except" through to "Limit" with "No Maximum Time Limit on Public Holidays", in which case it can't reasonably be disputed that it would have taken a very peculiar person to conclude that there were no parking charges on public holidays. Making arguments from assuming that people will conclude what you want them to conclude is, in my opinion, not a very good way of going about things.
My understanding is that courts take a dim view of companies profiting from their own ambiguous/misleading T&C (which is what this is) and any motorist brave enough to take them to court would most likely win (with a competent barrister like BBB!).
Because that’s what this is about - unfairly profiting from their own signage by exploiting complex rules of grammar. No T&C should ever be allowed legally to do this. Quite simply, it is offensive to justice, as well as breaching the rules of English contract law.
Had the company wished to make their terms clear, the middle section of the sign would have stated:
“ *Maximum stay 4 hours (except public holidays - No time limit)* “
In my opinion, the company knew exactly what they were doing…
Yeah and how much would a barrister like BBB cost??
@@Frenic1
I did say brave…🤣
Realistically, though, you’d take the County Court route - claim by submitting a form with written evidence, costs about £35
Other options might be social media, mainstream media (name+shame), your MP, group action
@@jaywalker1233 But it's not a private parking company involved here. You would have gott the ECN for breaching "The Hyde Park and The Regent’s Park (Vehicle Parking) Regulations 1995" or one of several similar laws
@@TheGarryq
Whichever, all entities operating in England are under the jurisdiction of English statute and common law, so the OP applies. The motorist would obviously have to identify the correct entity and then decide how to proceed as per previous posts.
@jaywalker1233 Haha you did indeed 🤣🤣
I definitely read this as "You have to pay & display except on public holidays, with the added benefit of no time limit" 😡
They could just remove the except and it wouldn't be unclear. You read it like that because you know what the rule is. But, that's not what the sign says. The issue here is that they opted to use negative language. If the folks that create signs in the US did it, it would be "Pay and display Mon-Sun 8:30am 6:30pm Maximum stay 4 hours. Public holidays no maximum stay." It's precisely what they intended for the sign to mean, but less likely to result in people misunderstanding the instruction.
Completely agree - it seems to invalidate the whole thing. But that isn't actually right - clearly ambiguous.
YES read it that way straight first time. There is no word Free on the sign. for public holidays.
I certainly read as no pay and display on public holidays. It did not even occur to me that it only the time limit that was suspended.
Of course you read it like that because that's what it would normally mean when the phrase "except public holidays" is invoked. So the sign is in fact more than ambiguous.
I used to work for Parking Penalty Tribunal (the Quango that adjudicates LA parking disputes in England and Wales, excluding London). If that sign was in PPT’s jurisdiction there’s not a hope in hell that it would pass muster … the ambiguity makes the whole sign meaningless.
It doesn’t but ambiguity in a contract favours the party against whom it is being enforced. It’s just that clause that’s ambiguous, not the whole thing.
The only reason I'd assume pay and display on public holidays is because I'm sceptical.
Why would they *not* want your money?
Because most parking restrictions in public spaces usually exclude Sundays, so that is a reasonable interpretation of the wording.
There is no room in law for assumption ; the legal case will be based on correct English interpretation of the published terms and conditions ; it matters not what the park officials intended to say ; what is written on the signage is legally binding and a court would side with the member of public who interpreted that one does not pay on public holidays ( which is normal just about everywhere else ) and that there is no time limit - hence one can park before 08:30 and after 6:30 pm , as long as it remains a public holiday ; on two consecutive public holidays , such as Christmas Day and boxing day , this could be interpreted to permit overnight parking without limitation or need to pay anything .
I am sure this is not what is intended , but it IS what is written on the sign and a perfectly valid interpretation , so the matter would have to be thrown out of court with no penalty payable . Then back to English lessons for the author of the signs .
With more and more car parks approaching 24/7 pay, I'm always very careful. Especially when out of my area.
Yep. Better to be pessimistic and assume the worst interpretation. This is why English has punctuation - clarifies meaning.
(I did not say other languages do not have punctuation!)
@@derekheeps1244 You're absolutely right - I'm reminded of helping my uncle, Jack, off his horse once.
How many people would be confident enough to challenge a parking fine, I wonder?
The fact that there is a deliberate space between the "maximum stay 4 hours" and the "except during public holidays" suggests that it should only be read one way... "free parking during public holidays with no time limit".
If the sign was intended to read as the car park owner claims, there should have been no space and the exception enclosed in brackets, which would imply that the exception was related to the maximum stay time only, and not to the separate statement above regarding pay and display. Eg:
Pay and Display car park
Maximum stay 4 hours (except public holidays - no maximum)
... or better still "Maximum stay 4 hours (Maximum limit does not apply during public holidays)
It's not the "car park owner" who sets the times and fees, but the Secretary of State in a Stututory Instrument
@@TheGarryq huh?? ... I didn't make any reference to who is responsible for setting prices and times? ... For public car parks, the local authority decides the charges and times as they see fit under the Traffic Management Act. For private car parks, the owner is free to do as they please as far as I'm aware, but neither of these things has anything to do with a statutory instrument, nor my comment, nor the subject of the video, so I'm a little confused? 🤔
@@mickgodwin5023 The :local authority" in this case is the Royal Parks, charges are not set in local by-laws/contract terms but by statute power
@@TheGarryq🤓
I read it as - The traffic wardens have public holidays off, so no charges or time limits.
Cameras don’t have holidays.
It’s all photographic entry and exit now, not human inspectors.
I attended an event in Richmond (London) many years ago, a big event, and it was on a public holiday. The council had closed every public car park within a mile radius of the event so people (including myself) were parking on the streets as they had no other option. We all got ticketed. There were almost as many parking enforcement officers on duty that day as there were event attendees. I’ve always wondered if it was a deliberate ploy.
I think there is a further point to the argument.
If it becomes apparent to the authority involved (Royal Parks in this case) ... They have a duty to clear up the ambiguity as they are aware of it now!
It could therefore be argued that their failure to make the signage clearer that they (RP) are willing to apply the more lenient interpretation!
When even Royal Parks are scamming motorists the country is in a pretty sorry state.
Yep! You said it all!
Royalty are famously giving to the peasants.
Well, isn’t there more ‘alleged’ naughtiness allegations aimed at paedo Andrew? Money has to come from somewhere, & he has to pay for Fergie’s foot spa’s! (Mind, Quentin Tarantino PAYS to suck toes)😁
Except they aren't scamming anyone and it's the brainless halfwits that lack any common sense probably because they spend most of their time staring at a phone in there hand
Not sure why anyone would be surprised lol. I bet it's been a brilliant cash cow for them on public holidays since many innocent drivers will just pay it anyway.
I read it the second way. This is because if there was no P&D on a public holiday then it would just say "Except Public Holiday". The fact that they then have a following sentence indicating "no maximum time limit" implies that the P&D still applies (in a modified capacity)
Plenty of places have free parking with a maximum time limit, and logically the reasoning to me would be "we give wardens the day off on public holidays so can't enforce either the tickets or the maximum stay"
What would be the reason behind not having a maximum time limit exclusively on public holidays, especially given there is one on Sunday? That makes way less sense
I’m not English native speaker, I read it as “park and display is always, but on public holidays there is no maximum park time limit”.
That blank line separating them implies the entirety of the above statement is an exempt during public holidays - this is a trap.
it is a stupid error , not a trap , the ticket is not worth the paper it is printed on .
@@derekheeps1244 No error, entrapment.
Exactly. The whole of the first grouping is being referred to in the third line.
If the line "Maximum stay 4 hours" were moved down so that there is a space between it and the hours, and no space between it and "Except Public Holiday" then it would significantly reduce the ambiguity.
There's also a thing called punctuation which would help immensly....
@@avulonanderson2372 These are signs, punctuation can be problematic in terms of visibility. The whole issue is that they included the word "except." They could just remove it, or they could replace it with "only on holidays" or "holidays only." Which would convey exactly what the policy is. It's especially problematic for the subset of autistic people that drive because it literally says that the time limit only applies on holidays.
Just getting rid of the "Except" would totally fix it.
If there wasn’t a gap/space between the top information and the middle information, I would read it as pay and display with no time limit. But as there is a gap/space I read it as not pay and display with no time limit
I hate these unclear parking signs. So I still put my car details into the machine/app to show I'm there. It then comes up showing parking free until the next available day after a public holiday. I do have anxiety, so I do this for my own peace of mind.
You sound like a sensible sceptic to me.
That's a good idea if you're unsure. Everyone should do this.
Unfortunately I've seen plenty of machines that will charge you despite it being outside of the charging period ...
@@TheGozzeh Or will take your money and print a ticket valid for tomorrow if you don't need to pay today.
I do the same thing in all carparks
I read that as no payment or time limit on public holidays, I also assumed, that it would be read in favour of the person parking if contested.
I should certaily hope so.
That isn't what it says. It says Pay and Display, 4 hours max, except public holidays no time limit. It doesn't say no payment. It's perfectly clear.
"...read in favour of the person parking"🤣
Oh please🙄, grow up.
I am confident that if taken to court a judge would agree , because the judiciary will take the literal meaning of what is written .
@@gadgetman36 it states pay and display with the time limit . Except public holidays where there is no requirement to pay and display nor any time limit .
It is perfectly clear and a matter of simple interpretation . There are two separate exemptions . Signs are interpreted on the basis of what they state , not what they do not state .
The main text says "pay and display" followed by "except bank holidays"
If they wanted to convey no time limit only, it would say:
"no maximum time limit during public holidays"
My reading was that there was no parking charge on public holidays and no time limit.
Precisely! In agreement…
I read this as "you still have to pay, but no restriction on the time you are parked."
when you wrote "I read this as" did you mean "I did read this as" or "I am reading it as"?
I have a similar interpretation: That it's saying Except on public holidays, there's no time limit. So only on public holidays would you be limited to 4 hours.
It's the gap between the first bit (pay and display, max time 4 hours) and the Except - it implies a second paragraph or punctuation, not a continuation.
@@pauleff3312 " i read this as" coz it's past tense.
I read it this way. I might not if I hadn't stopped and spent time understanding it and difficult for me to say that the context of being in this video didn't have an impact. However, one of the tests I applied was if "Except Public Holiday" was a conditional negation of the entire first part then what did the "No Maximum Time Limit" relate to? Basically it only makes sense when the no time limit part relates to the except bank holidays part to form a second paragraph, as @stevepowell491 says, and this second paragraph is the exception to the rules set out in the first paragraph.
And I have been caught out by a parking sign with Sunday being the exception. I never made it back to check in the appeal timescale. However, I still believe I was done over on this as when I was there a couple of weeks ago it was as I remembered. So, just goes to show that even if the sign is correctly understood then Surrey CC are still happy to behave illegally - just one of the ways they do so.
I'd have assumed it was still pay and display just not time limited personally, though it is somewhat vague as to whether the overnight parking restriction still applies on public holidays, I'd still assume it was but someone could easily assume on public holidays it didn't apply.
All they need to do is change “Except” to “On” and all problems resolved, plus they save money on printing less letters.
No people just don't understand the word "except". It's perfectly clear. Nothing needs to be changed.
@@gadgetman36 It's not the wording that makes it ambiguous, it's the poor formatting. They could have had it clearer with less print to read if they wrote the sign like this:
Pay And Display
Mon - Sun 8:30 am - 6:30 pm
Maximum Stay 4 Hours
Except Public Holidays
No Parking Midnight - 8:30 am
I would read this as no pay and display on public holidays.
It they wanted no maximum time layout, but you still had to pay and display, it would need to be laid out:
"Pay and display
Maximum stay 4 hours except public holidays"
The fact that the Except Public Holidays is its own paragraph, to me, means that it applies to the whole notice. If it was in a separate paragraph with the time limit, that would be different.
As someone with autism and dyslexia I'm very literal, so signs like this one are a nightmare for me. Its the word 'except' that gets me and that there is no punctuation. To me it reads you don't need to pay on public holidays and there is no maximum time limit, which would also make me read it that you could stay overnight.
"Should" be straightforward.
Consumer Rights Act 2015: Contract terms can be ambiguous and capable of being interpreted in different ways, especially if they are not in writing or in an accessible format. In these cases, this section ensures that the interpretation that is most beneficial to the consumer, rather than the trader, is the interpretation that is used.
If a court awards in favour of the council with such ambiguous language, then they are ignoring the law and (I think) risk facing a judicial misconduct review if the complaint is entertained.
I would have interpreted it as no ticket required on a bank holiday.
Then your English Comprehension skills need work.
@@ZoeSummers1701A No they do not .
I agree, ambiguous.
A clearer message would be 'No maximum stay limit on Bank and Public Holidays'
The incompetence is outstanding as always. Clearly says except bank holidays, so they can't fine anyone.
There's park in Bristol where the pay and display is free Sunday but pay Monday to Sat but the yellow lines are free on Bank Holidays. Pulled up on a Bank Holiday Monday and was double checking when I saw a parking Warden. Asked him could I park all day on the yellow lines, "yes", what if I parked in a marked bay "you need a ticket". Came back 2 hours later and about 50% of the cars, all neatly parked in the bays, had tickets, those of us on the yellow lines were fine. I do wonder about the thinking behind some of these restrictions.
Bristol. I have heard it said they have a number of these ambiguous rules and that wardens magically appear at the critical time to book everyone. Just what I heard, but I do notice the more they exclude motorists, the further downhill the place seems to slide.
I drove to Itally during Easter and ALL parking was free. Good job because otherwise I'd be fu^&ed.
Yellow lines are only "free" on bank holidays if explicitly stated on the sign.
@@stephenwray4950I don’t think he was querying the yellow lines which the government originallly created for traffic flow. But the fact that bays were charged…. Bays that should never affect traffic…. Topsy-turvy 😂
Grate Britain!
Because they added a space between orders, I would read that as no pay and display on public holidays and no time limits are enforced on public holidays as a result.
Though with no punctuation too that reads as "Except public holidays no maximum time limit" which says no maximum time limit except on public holidays! lol
My first interpretation was that the time limit didn’t apply on a public holiday but definitely ambiguous and challengeable if you interpreted it the other way.
The meaning of the sign depends on the competence of the enforcement, that sign has no value in countries that actually use English because it literally says that "except on holidays there is no time limit" Punctuation is very important.
"Except Public Holiday" would indicate free parking but with the added clause " No Max time limit" indicates that the 4 hour time limit is the exception not the parking fees.
Where on the sign does it say free parking on public holidays?
Except for two things: 1. There is a big space between "Maximum Stay 4 hours" and "Except Public Holiday", implying a new paragraph and thus a new subject after the old one (Pay and Display). No reason for the big space. As it stands, the exception is to the entire previous section. 2. The lines "Except Public Holiday" and "No Maximum Time Limit" are not grammatical, implying a new sentence and thus a new idea, so one can clearly read it as "Pay and Display + Max time 4 hours" except on Public Holidays (no Pay and Display and no max time 4 hours). IE not only do you not have to pay, there is also no time limit.
If they wanted to be clear they could simply have said "No Maximum Time Limit" "On Public Holiday"
Definitely deliberately misleading.
@@gadgetman36 After the bit about Pay and Display and hours. There is a big space which ends that section. The next section says "except Public Holidays" and goes onto be clear that not even the max hours applies either.
If they wanted to be clear they would not divide it into 2 sections, the Pay and Display section and the Exception section.
They are two separate statements , so it indicates not only free parking but ALSO no time limit ( and that includes before 08:30 and after 6:30 pm ) .
@@greatbriton8425 Or as I said elsewhere, add a colon: "Except public holiday: no maximum time limit"
And to nitpick even more, it should read: "Except ON public holidayS"
The 'Except Public Holiday - No Maximum Time Limit' is placed grammatically in a separate paragraph, therefore is a rule of its own. That's how I would interpret that i.e. you can park with no time limit on public holidays. It is 100% ambiguous, no contest.
They should have just restricted parking to 4 hours on public holidays too and made the sign easier
separate 😅 seperate 😢
@@123MondayTuesday… or had no sign at all which would have further simplified parking!
@@EXISTENCE1891 … you’d have thought this post was all about correct spelling and grammar so as to be unambiguous in meaning … 😂😂😂😂
I read it as you still paid but there was no 4 hour limit but that’s by sheer luck. It’s ambiguous. In fact, I would even lean towards it being purposely ambiguous to generate revenue because I can’t see any good reason why they’d lift the 4 hour limit specifically on public holidays.
Change the word "Except" to "During" to solve the wording issue, I would have interpreted it as free parking on public holidays.
I definitely read it as free parking on public holidays. I couldn't even work out the alternative until you explained it.
"No maximum time limit on public holidays" would make it clearer.
Clearly, like everyone else, initially I thought no charges on a public holiday. But after reading it a couple of times, I then understood the alternative and correct interpretation. You then confirmed it.
That's the point, you shouldn't have to read it a couple of times it should be clear first time of reading
the bit that make this sign potentially confusing is the spacing between "maximum stay 4 hours" and "except public holiday" had the space been before the maximun stay rather than after it would be a lot less confusing
Either incompetence or malice. Standard government stuff! 🤣🤣
Except Public Holiday, meaning Royal Parks staff are also on holiday so free parking between 6:30am to Midnight.
It would be much clearer if the blank line came before the ‘maximum stay 4 hours’. Given where the blank line is, I think it’s reasonable to assume the ‘except’ applies to the whole of the preceding paragraph.
Exactly this.
which also makes, if the ticket person is being anal, give someone a ticket on public holiday after 6.30pm
I read that as if public holidays have no payment or time limit. I could also choose to read it as on public holidays there is no time limit. I think the first interpretation is the most reasonable.
Trouble is that 'No parking midnight to 8.30am' contradicts public holiday 'No maximum time limit'.
I would of thought no charge on a public holiday. That sign is as clear as mud. Everyone should challenge it.
From what I understand.vwhere there is ambiguous language in a contract the contract is to be enforced in the light most favourable to the end user.
It's at www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/69/enacted
Much less ambiguity if they had simply put "No Maximum Time Limit On Public Holidays" instead
Another brilliant video - thank you. Also, there's the issue with yellow-lines. As I understand it, the law states that an UNBROKEN yellow line or lines denotes no-parking etc. However, where countless road-works and wear and tear etc have completely eradicated large parts of the yellow-lines, one still gets booked for illegal parking - even in the longish gaps with no visible lines.
I read this sign as......park here on public holidays we want the extra fine money. Love Crooked Councillors
If there are 2 ways to interpret something, it's always the other way that is intended.
But if there are two ways to interpret a sign then it has no legal authority.
What is intended is irrelevant in a court of law ; what is written is what counts .
It's very clearly written as "pay and display except public holidays", so no charge on public holidays. If they wanted to only change the time limit on public holidays but still charge they would need to have worded it something like "no time limit on public holidays".
Your making it up as you going along it’s not clearly written “pay and display except public holidays”. You’re taking words from the sign and putting them together however you want to.
It's on a different line. So is separate information. Bad signage.
@@flybobbie1449 ofc its separate info, it's a bout bank holidays. Bad logic.
tbh if they want every penny on weekends it should be
Pay and Display
Mon-Sat 0830-1830
Max stay 4 hrs
Public Holidays 0830-1830
No maximum stay limit
Interesting. Thank you for drawing our attention to this. I will be extra vigilant in future.
To make it clear and unambiguous the sign should be:
"
Pay and Display
Mon-Sun 8:30am-6:60pm
[empty line]
Maximum stay 4 hours
Except Public Holidays
No Maximum Time Limit
"
Amazing how much clearer moving an empty line around can make it.
Or even
"
Pay and Display
Mon-Sun 8:30am-6:60pm
[empty line]
Maximum stay 4 hours
Except No Maximum Time Limit on Public Holidays
"
Or even
Public holiday
No maximum time limit
The sign is definitely ambiguous. I'd go for "
Pay and Display [in bold]
Mon-Sun 8:30am-6:60pm
[empty line]
Maximum stay 4 hours
except no limit on stay
during Public Holidays
"
The original used "time limit" and "stay" to describe the same thing. By using "during" I'm making it clear that the exception only applies within the public holiday, not just because you parked there initially on a public holiday.
A better one that is more of a standard signage (and presumably what they are going for):
PAY AND DISPLAY
[line/blank line]
Mon-Sun 8:30 am - 6:30 pm
Except public holidays
Maximum stay 4 hours
[line/blank line]
On public holidays
No maximum stay
I'd be very confused by a sign saying 6:60pm
Nope, should be:
Pay and Display
Mon-Sun 8:30am-6:30pm
[empty line]
Maximum Time Limit 4 Hours
Except On Public Holidays
No need to over complicate a simple message.
I would read that as it is not pay and display on public holidays and there’s no time limit on public holiday. If I received a parking charge for parking during the public holiday I would be very annoyed and appeal and take it to court. The sign is ambiguous.
I read it as "except public holiday, upon which there is no maximum time limit, (though there is still a pay and display scheme)"
Yes, I agree, it’s definitely possible to read and understand in different ways…. It really surprises me the total lack of thought in creating this sign…..
Because the “Pay and Display” is in a larger type size than the rest, I assumed that it covers all that follows in smaller type. So I read it as you can stay longer on bank holidays but you still have to pay up. Also, once these places are setup for paid parking they are seldom found giving it away. Expecting to park for free on bank holidays is unrealistic these days sadly.
I disagree. I see the large font as a title drawing your attention and the smaller fonts adding detail about the whole system - not only the time limit but also the paying.
Because it is a separate paragraph, the "Except" refers to the Pay and Display, NOT the 4 hours, so it's free.
If they want to charge it should read: ...stay 4 hours except Public holidays when it is unlimited.
It does not actually say that though : it gives the normal conditions , then an exemption for public holidays , both against paying and against time limit . It is perfectly clear , and the court would almost certainly rule that way .
I agree it could be worded better. As a motorist these days though I never expect anything for nothing, that’s why I automatically put the most expensive interpretation on it
all they need to explain on the sign is no maximum limit for what- No maximum stay limit, using the same term as above? or if they didnt, then it certainly isnt a stay limit.
except public holiday would then mean, the mon-sun 0830-1830 would not apply if its on a public holiday, with the time limit removed. which could either mean one have to pay and display at 0830-midnight, or one neednt pay for the same period
An interesting twist in a car park near me was that there was a sign basically saying “No charge on Bank holidays” and people were complaining that they were still being charged for parking on Good Friday.
It turns out that Good Friday isn’t a Bank holiday but a Public holiday since it hasn’t been designated in the appropriate legislation, unlike in Scottish legislation.
Christmas Day isn’t a Bank holiday either.
They know to list what they mean, but deceitful people seeking to catch people out
Good Friday IS a Bank Holiday ( the banks are on holiday ) , both here in Scotland and also in England , as stated in the UK Government link below .
Christmas day and Boxing days are also officially bank Holidays as well
www.gov.uk/bank-holidays#england-and-wales
@@dougaldouglas8842 I don’t think that it’s deceitful because they are doing exactly what they say they are going to do.
Other people use the term “Public holiday” which is more loose term. “Bank holiday”, apparently, has a specific legal meaning which is either defined in the “Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971” or created by a Royal Proclamation.
Someone (on Facebook) suggested taking them to court but I can’t really see the court disagreeing with something which has already been legally defined. 🤷🏻♂️
@@nigelanscombe8658 Deceiving people is what happened.
Now, as a reasonable person if I had put the sign together I would have specifically pointed out what was meant by bank holidays, in pointing to those holidays, as other have done.
The sign is deceiving, something that people do not wish that term to be used as today we live in at a time when smooth explanations are preferred, over honesty.
@@dougaldouglas8842 blame the English government for not updating their (nor the Welsh) legislation. The Scottish Parliament managed it.
This is really interesting and helpful. The pay and display car park that I sometimes have to use actually has really clear wording on it. It lists the charges and it lists the times those charges apply. Then clearly says in a different coloured lettering "charges do not apply on bank and public holidays"
Surely all parking notices should be that clear. There's absolutely no doubt to anybody using this car park near me that they can park there without charge on a bank holiday.
As requested, I read it as free parking as long as you want on public holidays. Thanks for great videos.
for me it is straight away, no ticket required on a public holiday
So you don't understand "Pay and Display"? 🤔
you still have to pay on public holidays, and you can stay all day!!!! up to midnight!!!
Yeah this is what it seems to be to me too, after reading it 15 times, what it should say is “No maximum time limit on public holidays but parking charges still apply”.
and how's that going to work? public holidays it, do you just buy the cheapest ticket option or something? it's clear as mud ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 🙂 it's park (pubic park ) the sort place you may go on say public holiday, picnic, walk, all thatstuff do in a park, shoot fish in barrel, money for old rope, etc. etc.
I read it that I would still need to buy a ticket on the public holiday, but didn't have to adhere to the 4 hours maximum. Operation between 8.30 am and 6.30pm.
No punctuation so it would be free on public holidays. It could be said to be different if there was not a gap before the "except", then they could say that the spaces are acting as full stops but here there is no way to tell which sections should be considered to be attached to one another.
I instantly read it as no maximum time limit during public holidays, but still need to pay
I didn't.
@@Raggy60So you don't understand "Pay and Display"? 🤔
That is how I read it
Yup, mainly because the Pay and display text is in bold and the paragraphs under it are not.
@@gadgetman36 I do and I also understand ambiguity. Did you put the sign up ?
I read it as pay and display with a maximum time of 4 hours, except on public holidays where the 4 hours limit does not apply (but the pay and display does).
it does not say that .
so what happens when you gonin at 1730 and intend to leave at 2330?
I thought it was no fees on public holidays. Never occurred that it'd be the other way!
Mon-Sun (redundant giving any days when all days are covered here) between 8:30 and 18:30 there is a 4 hr limit. On public holidays theres no time limit. However in all circumstances theres no parking after midnight until 8:30. Meaning between 18:30 and 0:00 there is also no time limit, just gotta be gone before my car turns into a pumpkin (or gets towed).
I take it that on a public holiday I can park there from 8:30 til 0:00 without problems.
I read it as free to park on public holidays with no time limit either and would be well 'annoyed' if I received a 'ticket' for it and would challenge it 100%, I had 40 years on the road so have seen a few signs in my time.
Where on the sign does it say free parking on public holidays?
@@gadgetman36 it says:
Pay and Display.......
Except Public holidays.......
No maximum time limit.......
@@gadgetman36 There is not enough 'small print' explaining the signage IMO and this is only my opinion.... oh and quite a few others on here seem to say the same only in different words (Covering my back here 🤣.... but as Dan said, it can be seen either way, the way I saw it I expressed as a comment.
I have never paid a parking 'fine' 'ticket' whatever though I have defended a few and won all, even 5 on one vehicle (Ok was a converted bus with a trailer) and got them all quashed.
dude uk law/roadsigns dont work like that "saying when its free"
if it doesnt restrict you from doing something, then you can. like if it says no parking midnight-8.30am, then u can park 8.30am-midnight, subject to the stated restrictions
@@gadgetman36
Where it uses the word “except” you pay on these days “except” these types of days. There are many legitimate parking signed that use “except “ to indicate free parking days or vehicles “except motorcycles “ for example.
Particularly as there is a gap between the first paragraph and the second, I would have read it as 'not P&D on public holidays'. To read it the other way round, I would have expected the 'no time limit' to be before the 'On public holidays' immediately following the previous time restriction. Bad Royal Parks!
If it was free on public holidays they wouldn't have bothered with "no time limit". It's perfectly clear to me.
You could also read it as "No maximum time limit, except on public holidays". Which obviously contradicts the previous clause. But still!
I would read this as no pay and display on public holidays and no time limit. But now you have explained I can see what they actually mean. As you say it’s an ambiguous sign!
There's a line in the film Aliens, something like ' I don't know which species is worse, you don't see them f***ing each other over for a god damn percentage'.
The morality of this country is in the sewer.
Mortality or Morality?
@@InBodWeTrust oops..thanks!
Aliens, the sequel
It specifically mentions the maximum time limit, not the requirement to pay. Therefore the sign wording in the second paragraph makes it clear the 4-hour limit doesn't apply on public holidays.
Otherwise it would also state 'charges [do not apply on public holidays]'.
It's a spacing thing. If the 'Maximum stay' line is moved down to sit on top of the 'Except Bank Holidays' line, the information is perfectly clear.
The way they expect us to read it is should say: ‘No time limit on a public holiday. ‘
Confusing signage, and they financially benefit from it? What's that you say skippy? You think this might be deliberate? 😂
How difficult would it have been to put something like "Public Holidays 8:30 PM - 6.30 PM Pay & Display No time limit."?
I read the sign before watching the video, and while I agree that it isn't as clear as it could be, I did interpret it the way it was intended - it's Pay and Display, on Monday to Sunday there is a four hour limit, except on bank holidays when there is no time limit. It isn't THAT unclear.
I agree it’s slightly ambiguous. It would be clearer if the Maximum Stay line were grouped with the Exception lines.
Free parking on public holidays. That's how I would read it.
But then length of stay irrelevant and it would simply say "No pay and display" and also the text grouping is pretty clear that the exception is to the time limit not the play and display.
@@Llanchlo No, there could still be a four-hour limit even if it is free.
Even though it says "Pay and Display" and not "free" anywhere? 🤔
@@Llanchlo pretty clear is not good enough : it must be ABSOLUTELY clear and no ambiguity .
@@gadgetman36 Below 'Pay and Display' it states 'Except Public Holiday' .
That is indisputably clear .
Got caught in Ambleside some years ago, pretty much the same thing. I complained to the council saying the sign was unclear but all I got back was a letter threatening to double the charge if I didn't pay up within 14 days. I paid up.
You should have rejected the penalty and told them you would see them in court .
No pay and display on public holiday. Didn't even think of the alternative until you said it.
It seems clear that on public holidays no payment is required & that there is NO time limit.
No payment and no time limit on public hols
Just because traffic Worden is off 😂
Except the midnight to 8:30
@@benholroyd5221 No time limit on public holidays means you can park before 08:30
@@derekheeps1244 that's a separate sign though, and it's a legally designated sign.
If a sign said 'free parking in the city of X' that doesn't follow that you could otherwise park illegally
Basically NOT CLEAR, NO CONTEST!!
Deliberately so?
@@kenhickford6581 Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
@@kenhickford6581 why would they deliberately give people a reason not to pay?
@@praetorian65 Very true!
@@shaunpatrick8345 More money in fines!
Agreed. No need to pay on public holidays. This is particularly irksome for foreign tourists, of whom there must be quite a few, given that it's a 'Royal' park. If we are confused by the sign, what must foreigners think 🤔? Embarrassing. 😔
A standardised sign across all car parks where operators can put their own terms is clearly needed.
In my view, all the wording above the statement " not on public holidays" doesn't apply on " Public Holidays " 😊
Then you don't understand the word "except". Everything above "except" applies i.e. Pay and Display 4 hour time limit, not including/other than public holidays no time limit. It doesn't say "no pay and display" so it still applies.
It's obvious it means on public holidays there is pay and display but there is no max time limit. The reason: There can not be any time limit if there is no pay and display.
That's a good point, but I have seen free parking areas that state "time limit one hour, no return within two hours". So there is a limit to free parking and, in this instance, it's clearly stated.
the time limit is when the park and display is enforced
Thank you for explaining this.
When i initially looked i thought if was no p&d or time limit on public holidays but on a longer look i took it to just mean there was no time limit on public holidays.
I think it's ambiguous too.
Free parking for as long as you like on public holidays has to be reasonably assumed because the sign is not clear, the burden must fall to the sign owner.
Nowhere does it say parking is free on public holidays, just no time limit. You still have to pay. That's what pay and display means. The sign is clear so everyone who gets fined deserves it.
Last year a friend copped a parking ticket in Southampton UK, because he’d placed his ticket on the right hand side of the dash top rather than the left. Back home in Adelaide a woman parked her car in the first spot near an intersection. The nearest ticket machine was in view just around the corner, which she purchased her ticket from. You guessed it, even though she didn’t over stay the time limit she received a fine because her ticket was not valid in that street. On a brighter note, in January this year I parked in a Bendigo street just as the parking inspector was servicing the ticket machine, which meant I had a several minute wait. When I tried to purchase a ticket the female inspector told me not to worry but just don’t over stay the 90 minute limit.
The way I read the sign is the “pay and display”, which is in a larger and bolder font, is the overall rule.
Everything underneath it shows other rules.
To make things a little easier to understand maybe a bold underline under the “pay and display” part would make it clearer that its pay and display at all times, and that other rules change depending on the day.
There’s another issue with this sign. It doesn’t state a ‘no return within…’ clause. So technically you could park there for 3 hours 59 minutes, drive around the block and then park there again without breaking the maximum stay 4 hours rule.
Lol. Agree, you have to move your car at 3 hours 59 seconds and drive back to the same spot to continue to park (another session), it can’t roll on from the previous or first session, providing someone else doesn’t take that parking space or bay as London is congested 🙄