Tactics Ogre Reborn: Trying To Understand Damage Calculations
Vložit
- čas přidán 18. 01. 2023
- My head hurts. But my gimmick spears still work in endgame, so this is fine.
Tons of Thanks to all folks involved in obtaining and translating this information!
docs.google.com/document/d/1Q...
Also, Asvel's original Github
asvel.github.io/tacticsogre/d... - Hry
![“It’s SUPER EFFECTIVE!” - The Pokémon Damage Formula, Attack Mechanics & More Explained [All Gens]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/X3Lv_euKPDI/mqdefault.jpg)
![The moment we stopped understanding AI [AlexNet]](/img/n.gif)
MTL is hilarious sometimes. I was on Japanese site for FGO using google auto translate and it gave me such gems as "increasing clitoris power".
Considering it is Fate franchise origins this is probably canon.
@@1cortar To this day I find it absolutely wild how incredibly mainstream a franchise in which its first incarnation was you banging a gender-bent, questionably aged King Arthur waifu. I hope Japan never changes.
God bless Google translate 🤣
At around @14:00 you definitely misunderstood it (as you said so yourself). I'm gonna copy the part from the document and then elaborate:
"If the spell’s Element is strong against the defender’s Affinity, apply the weapon’s elemental damage (regardless if it matches the spell’s Element or not) as a percentage modifier to the Stat Overhead. (For example, if the defender is ice, and the spell used is fire, and the weapon has an elemental value of 20-regardless if it’s ice or fire or some other element-the Stat Overhead would increase by 20%.)"
You were changing elemental staves, but the element of said weapons *does not matter* , all that matters in that case is the *number* on it. Also, *you weren't even getting any bonus whatsoever from that* cause you were using an Earth spell against a Water enemy!
In short: *if your spell's element is strong against the enemy's element* , then your *weapon's elemental number (no matter what element it is)* will give a % bonus based on said number. If your spell's element isn't strong against the enemy's element, the number on your staves does not matter at all.
TL;DR: use the correct element spell to exploit enemy weakness, get % bonus from weapon element number (doesn't matter what element is on the weapon)
Which is basically only relevant when using cursed weapons off of bodysnatched units, as otherwise you aren't getting a higher boost from exploiting element weakness with spells than you get for matching the spell element to your unit's element.
But those 99 ele cursed weapons look pretty nice for a multi element build! Not like you wouldn't be one shotting things anyway, though.
@15min, the damage bonus from your weapon is only applied if the character casting the spell has the affinity advantage. Regardless of the weapons element. You are testing with a neutral affinity so there is no bonus.
Rodger, will double check. Thanks for the clarification.
That is incorrect. The elemental damage bonus from your weapon is only applied to spells if these two conditions are met:
1) The weapon is equipped in the main hand, is 1-handed, and has an accompanying offhand weapon/shield equipped.
2) The SPELL's element is strong against the target's Affinity.
The Attacker Affinity vs Defender Affinity interaction provides its own bonus (if the attacker's Affinity is strong against the defender's) that is separate from the bonus from the above interaction (Spell Element vs Defender Affinity).
I see the aoe spells in this scale: elem 4 -> dracon 2 -> apoc 2. they follow this pattern in terms of mana cost, range, and damage. elem 4 has 70 mana cost, most range, but deals least dmg. dracon 2 is in the middle, apoc 2 has least range w most damage
Except that Draconic 2 has the longest range still.
It would definitely be helpful to develop some rules of thumb based off these mechanics. The math is pretty involved and you end up realizing a lot of it doesn't add too much to the damage calculation anyways
The biggest bonus seems to be exploiting elemental weaknesses. If you can field a few or more units with an elemental advantage over your opponent, you will generally be ahead
The most important thing is that the character's element is not weak to the weapon/finisher/spell element that they use.
Next most important is that the weapon/finisher/spell is strong against the target's element.
And LEAST important is that the character's element matches the weapon/finisher/spell they use.
I plan to boil down some of this into a simpler form later, this was more of a "here's some interactions" situation.
Generic breakdown, match your unit's element as much as possible for offense. Pick targets that are weak to that unit's element as much as possible and avoid targets that are strong to the unit as much as possible. For defense you likely want to try and stack your opposing element as much as possible if I am understanding this right. Conveniently, it all mostly lines up with intuitive unit building. With the bug about two handed or single weapon on casters being the biggest catch.
You're a godsend. I'm still early in the game, so this is good stuff to know. Thank you 👍🏽
ow, my head.
A math confusion adventure
@@CoffeePotato Guide us, great Potato ! MechanicsSeer, Coffee Omon 🤓
Seeing this, I gave my stock Deneb an ice wand so she can deploy ice spells.
And yes, it has a noticeable impact.
the document literally says that wand element doesn't matter
@@benedict6962 It does, but I had to be sure 🤣
@@benedict6962 I’ve read through it, and I’m pretty sure it didn’t literally say that.
@@rottenmeat5934 Then reread it, because it does say that.
So a water valkyrie/rune fencer should use the lightning instill since it gives resistance to their weakness. That's good to know
Yup.
@7:20 that known bug could be huge. If it uses the weapon damage type of the defenders weapon, all you have to do is stack one defense type and then equip that type in your main hand and you're golden.
Pretty much. Also Raics had a good point that this was in PSP too, but only for Anatomy bonus.
Just wondering, is this patched as of today?
Hopefully they make another Tactic Ogre title with every stat being less cryptic with explanations ingame .
The earth is broken! The wind is strong! 😂😂😂 definitely going to have to find a way to make all this ish digestible. Might work on that tonight if I have time. New puppy in the house and I have zero time to do anything youtube related atm lol. She hit me with a heartbreaker or bewitch spell lol.
I feel you, that puppy life is insane. Our goldy had some pups a while back, and it was a third full time job. Plus side, lots of furry adorableness when not cleaning puddles.
@@CoffeePotato you know all too well friend. Pet-dad life is off to an exhausting but adorable start. Hoping I get some sleep tonight, but keep up the theory crafting/testing and I'll keep watching during nap/work breaks lol.
Puppy phase flies by, enjoy it! Tactics Ogre will always be here when you're ready.
@@tostonesgg Hopefully they don't get too yelpy, good luck with the sleep attempt!
*Summoning Salt music starts up* Today we're here to talk about the history of the Sleep Speedrun world record, and how it reached a record of 0.1 seconds in January of 2023.
Don't sweat the elemental mix-up, I have to check the diagram before every battle. 😆
I'm a 4 element type of guy... Ice and Lightning threw a wrench in my entire existential paradigm.
*Intensely staring at ice water"
WHAT COUNTERS YOU?!
@@CoffeePotato 🤣 Exactly. I think you need the blue spiritual fire for that, or a weapon that inflicts Thirst.
Has any one else gotten enough stats to see there defence values stop working correctly? Just curious. It happened to me once I hit 2500 or so def and 2300 mdef stat stat no longer shows + values it rolls to one and you can no longer see increase. Trying to confirm this bug for other versions, I play on steam.
Just a visual display overflow, the stats that the game pulls from (STR/VIT/DEF and MND/RES/DEF) to create those values on the stat screen still work properly in damage calculations.
Well yeah, it's meant to be like 300 max.
Cleric stats likely not high enough to not be 0'd out. Take a high str+dex unit with highest attack cudgel against a naked target vs non cleric with nearly identical stats and gear.
Wouldn't the easiest way to test the ninja thing to remove the weapon skill entirely vs use weapon skill plus earring for the most possible change?
Probably, I'll test that more later. I was hoping to see more... something out of the box.
WAIT. The document doesn't cover using weapon skills for defending against that weapon!
+0.1 points per weapon skill rank (up to a maximum of 90 skill rank) to the combined "toughness" stat (combined contributions of STR+VIT/MND+RES to physical/magical damage reduction).
@@rucession5760 does it work on spells?
@@benedict6962 Only if the attacker (spellcaster) has the same weapon skill equipped as the defender.
If the spellcaster has multiple weapon skills equipped, the defender will only benefit from their weapon skill's bonus damage reduction if the attacker's matching weapon skill is the leftmost one equipped.
For example, if the spellcaster has equipped 3 weapon skills in this order: (Daggers/Fists/Swords), and the defender has the Swords skill equipped, the defender will not benefit from their weapon skill's bonus damage reduction. Only when the spellcaster has their 3 weapon skills equipped in these orders: (Swords/Daggers/Fists or Swords/Fist/Daggers) will the defender benefit from their matching weapon skill's bonus damage reduction.
@@rucession5760 thats so specific, hahaha. That definitely needs to be in the doc, even though the relative amount of damage difference isn't much.
Wouldn't be a Matsuno game without oddly specific mechanics for sure.
6:00 - i dont think you're interpretation is correct...im reading the Defender's weakness as a 30% dmg boost or a 10% reduction for what their weak/strong against, meanwhile Attacker's Synergy is only 10% dmg boost but 30% penalty for using deficient element...u said that synergizing ur own affinity (not the defender's weakness) is a 30% boost...that doesnt sound right. Im reading it as you can ONLY boost your own damage by 10% w/ synergistic attacks, but by 30% by picking the right target. Conversely u resist 10% damage when attacked by an Element you are resistant to, but will take 30% less damage if the Attacker is weak to the element they are attacking with:
- 30% damage boost for picking the right target (weak to your element)
- 10% damage boost for picking the right spell (synergy with your affinity)
- 10% damage reduction for picking poor targets (strong to your element)
- a whopping 30% damage reduction for picking the WRONG spell (a spell w/ an element you are weak to)
*Caster's Affinity affects: +10% Damage Dealt for Synergy Boost; -30% Damage Reduced for Deficiency in Element; no modifier for neutral Element
*Target's Weakness affects: +30% Damage Received for Weakness; -10% Damage Received for Resistant Element; no modifier for neutral Element
yes no?
Not entirely accurate.
The Attacker Affinity vs Defender Affinity interaction applies a +30% bonus modifier to the stat overhead when the attacker's Affinity is strong against the defender's Affinity, and a -10% penalty to the stat overhead when the attacker's Affinity is weak to the defender's Affinity.
This "stat overhead" is the result of this simplified equation, which is also one half of the damage formula:
((STR+DEX/INT+MND)-(STR+VIT/MND+RES))
The User Affinity vs Spell Element interaction applies a x1.4 multiplier to the spell's ATK stat when the user's Affinity matches the spell's element, and a x0.5 multiplier to the spell's ATK stat when the user's Affinity is weak to the spell's element. Each spell's individual ATK stat (spells do not use the ATK stats on weapons or accessories to calculate damage) is listed in the google document linked in this video's description.
ATK stats on weapons/accessories/spells and DEF stats on armor/accessories (plus class base DEF) are used in this half of the damage formula:
(Total ATK - Total DEF)
Total ATK for physical damage calculations is the combined ATK stats on the attacker's weapon, accessory, and finisher bonus (the damage bonus from finishers counts as ATK stat for damage calculations).
Total ATK for magical damage calculations is the individual spell's ATK stat.
Total DEF for physical damage calculations is the combined DEF stats on the defender's weapon (snapped cursed weapons have DEF bonuses), armor, accessory, and class base DEF (which scales roughly linearly with unit level but is slightly different between humanoid classes, and varies more between monster classes).
Total DEF for magical damage calculations is the combined DEF stats on the defender's armor, accessory, and class base DEF (which for magical damage calculations seems to be 1.5 x unit level), all divided by 2.
Are there any resources for class/level based DEF? I think that's the only part of the formula that I'm not wrapping my head around
I'm working on a table for the physical class base DEF values of most generic human classes (level 1-50), but there will probably be slight deviations (+1/-1) from my values on that table vs in-game values because I suspect the game stores decimal stat points but rounds them into whole numbers on the stat screen (which I based my calculations off of). Physical class base DEF values seem to scale roughly linearly (unlike what I initially believed) with unit level, but are slightly different for each class.
Table here: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nIu7Hf5lg7ZpM64kp2CY5kyFYuZH0wJFgM3cMAjNoCU/edit#gid=0
In-game testers from the JP TO community have put forth the claim that magical class base DEF is 1.5 x unit level (which is then halved like all DEF values used in magical damage calculations for an effective 0.75 x unit level). I'm so far inclined to believe them from personal test results, but I'll have do to a more comprehensive test after I'm done with the above table.
@@rucession5760 Meanwhile Fire Emblem's like "10-5 is ... God this is too hard, 0% chance to hit, f**k off, I'm tired"
@@rucession5760 Have you been able to develop a calculator that incorporates all of this information and that gives you an accurate output that matches in game testing? I've been trying to build one, and have used your table for Class Base DEF value, but so far I haven't had luck in getting anything to match
@@seanmcfadden6670 Could you give me an example of an in-game damage test you've been doing? Unit base stats (e.g. STR/VIT/DEX/INT/MND/RES), equipment stats, (e.g. ATK/DEF/physical/elemental damage/resistance bonuses) affinities, such parameters would be useful in determining if you're missing a component in your calculations.
@@rucession5760 It may be easier if I just give you the link to the google sheet I've been working on! (2nd tab)
I wanted to start with getting the calculation down for basic attack. This calculation doesn't include weapon elemental bonuses because I have been testing with weapons that don't have a bonus.
I'm thinking I'm either incorporating the weapon skill bonus or Innate Class DEF incorrectly
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xw6kKHiyJwqe-cq0WETi6EB74eoAf7fcqEQ45fLdPXs/edit?usp=sharing
Endless Caving was my nickname in high school ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Yikes, stay away from Nutty Putty, that cave's dangerous.
Its 25% and with mothers blessings its 50%. Heal iv. My dude has 2k hp and with mothers its always exactly half.
".... so then, to prove it to the officer, we hit him again, to make sure he was beaten exactly half to death...again. He was now EXACTLY dead"
@@CoffeePotato thought you said you don't know how much it healed for. 😆
@@oopygt59 Now I do🤣