9:22 Messed up on the math as pointed out by a viewer. The math is correct using the same situation that was presented by tenten. The math is INCORRECT when factoring the flat atk, 200 atk gained from the 2 3 cost echoes while the 4 1 only gets 150. That is 100% on me. MB. This does make enough of a difference in this raw scenario when only comparing the 3 3 and 41 3 3 (+200atk) 1200x 1.6= 1920 1920x1.5 = 2880 (1920x95)+(2880x05)= 196800 4 1 (+150 atk) 1395x1.824=2544.48 crit (2548.48x42)+(1395x58)= 187946.16 4.7% in favor of 3 3 rather than 4 1 if raw. But as soon as you add more echoes and stats, this will ofc differ. (BTW, this is with my echoes. an actual godly 4 1 with maxed rolls would beat the 3 3, also not even including the dmg% substats too rn)( again must reiterate, though this seems rly unfair for the 3 3, it is also unfair for the 4 1 as crit needs crit to do well as stated in tenten's video.) TLDR: substats will be what separates the builds in the end with a whole setup and not in this 3 3 vs 4 1 scenario. Do what u will with this info 👍
Claiming he's doing misinformation and then your math is wrong is crazy anyway. You should do the video again with the correct math, not all of your viewers will see the pinned comment.
@@mauronoacontaldomurgia8476 That's super valid. Though it is a tiny part of the video cuz it's not how it actually goes in game, I am still sadge. I just used the type of math he used to prove a point, but to be even more accurate, I should've included the flat atk Though I normally would redo the video, there are already so many comments that I don't want to delete and essentially will have wasted their time. I hope u understand
@@yun3_ That dude's a troll. Your pinned comment is literally RIGHT there the minute you scroll down, also the mistake you made doesn't change the overall point of the vid that TenTen is heavily underestimating 44111
@@KuroTheDesigner what the dude is saying is correct and some ppl can def miss this pin. though “wrong” is subjective cuz if using tenten’s scenario, it is right. but if going a bit further and including another factor, flat atk, then now the info would be wrong. but u are right how itwouldnt change the overall premise of the underestimation, especially with the bad faith arguments that were presented, but still ;-;
tldr: If you want optimization DMG wise: 90% use 43311 - unless you are using Jinhsi with her Signature, in which 44111 and 43311 is relatively the same. If you value your sanity and your time: 44111 help. ALOT. Just not all elements have the luxury to go 44111. These so-called Theory-crafting Content Creators are always has a biased view just to stir Drama and draw views.
It really it 50/50 imo and just depends on substats. my next vid will test it cuz i got the right echoes , but currently, my 44111 build with equal substats for calcahro beats my 43311
just off of events and tacet fields though, whenever I need 3 cost echoes for new characters i get (spectro, fusion) I already have tons of it without actually farming for it so, somehow I don't really have to go thru months of farming. I did with Yinlin but it was more like a week
self proclaimed "smart man" is doing "simple calculus" by circling numbers and drawing crooked cubes, but for tenten to show a graph comparing the builds without substats is not very fair, couldve done a comparison of builds at different investment levels.
I know some people care about the 5-10% dmg difference between 43311-44111 variation but in the grand scheme of thing it isn't a big deal Right now everyone is only aiming for the good enough echo set that will surely get replaced later as we get more resources and then aim to get closer to the perfect echo substat so getting the sub opitimal echo variant rn is whatever either way. Most people are just trying to share what they think is best during the 1.0 when we don't have enough data or character Yet a lot of people are too emotional about it geez, it's just a game bro
@@zeromailss so i didnt know the full context of the whole debate of 43311 and 44111 as apparently gacha smack and ten ten have their vid on this topic. I think gacha smack had a really good take on this topic, but tenten came in with his bad faith arguments as i noted in the video. while smack was recommending 44111 from his experience and giving his reasons to use such as accessibility. ten ten was literally saying do not use 44111 regardless of any reasons cuz it sucks, which not only is wrong, it can hurt newer players
@@yun3_day 1 player, I don't farm Echoes in Overworld but I have at least 3-4 proper Dmg bonus pieces per set But I still didn't get the RJ glow Healing bonus 4 piece for verina lol.
@@Arashish17 i told another viewer this but like i totally forgot that the turtle and heron(maybe) are in 2 sets. but yah a healing bonus on that set is just as difficult as getting a 3 cost with the right element (slightly easier cuz 2 vs 4 pity)
@@yun3_ The turtle has 2 sets! (RJ and Moonlit) but the heron only has 1 (Moonlit). I know this bc I'm still trying to get a 5* crit moonlit turtle to replace the 4* one I've been stuck with lol
I personally believe 43311 and 44111 are equally viable early build and 43311 will edge out in the mid game with just descent echoes and 44111 will win when you get 2x crit on everything I'll test this theory out for end game cuz i got the echoes to test, so ig this will be revealed in my next video :) not a shameless plug ;)
@@yun3_ 3 3 garuantees you get from story and illusuary realm is what allows 43311 to be good early. 43311 full atk main stat is also powerful until mid game on high base atk characters. My Hrover was running 44111 until this last IRealm with single crit role on 3 3 each was instantly better.
So while that's true, that event is like once every month and a half. U can't reliably gear ur team like that. U can farm 4 cost echoes instantly and for as long as u want. It's not too hard to do. My lvl 80 calcharo with 2x crit on all 44111 math was better than my 43311 assuming both had the same crit ish. I must test now im at lvl 90 but will make the results puiblic none the less once i finish my vid
@@yun3_ yes, I could farm Inferno Rider and Dreamless, but rng is rng. 87 IR to get a crit main stat echo is still bad. 132 crownless/dreamless for crit main stat. Only my Yinlin got lucky with 8 mephis kills for her crit piece. Also both changli and yinlin have their elemental dmg 3 costs from ow echoes. Rng will be Rng.
Getting The Echoes Is Not A Huge Deal If Everything Ends There... Getting good S.Stat like crit rate/dmg is the real pain. & What Makes Them More Annoying Is They Drop As A Low Rolls Like ( 6.9%crit Rate/ 13% Crit Dmg) Almost All The Time They Should Really Add A Reroll Mechanism, Be It Costful Or Grindy... At Least It'll Be Less Annoying
@@yun3_ I used to watch him in the first couple years of genshin before I knew better. Presenting his own bad takes as the objective way to play the game is all he does. He doesn't do any math himself and he used to just yoink info from CN and kegingmains without context to support his bad faith arguments.
again, i dont know exactly how he does his content or his research tbh. i just know for this video in particular, it was def aimed at newer players as the game was recently released iirc. so telling newer players that “advice” or having newer players nowadays look on yt for advice and stumbling on that video, it did not sit right with me
Only 10 mins into the video but using 44111 on Changli prevents the molten rift effect 5 set bonus since inferno rider doesnt work with 2 of him. Is it not a issue losing out on this? This will be fixed if we ever get another molten rift 4 star prayge.
yah we can only 44111 on 3 sets rn ;-; so don't use it for changli cuz the 5 piece bonus is pretty important. hopefully a nice molten 4 cost will come one day for her :)
Tbh 3 cost of Echoes is worth it, as Particular Dmg bonuses are hard to obtain, so you are better with Elemental Dmg bonus which applies to all type of Attacks. And we had 2 echo bonus events and the echo pack we get, can be used to get proper dmg bonus 3 cost echo every patch. Plus, you can get 60% cr very easily and If you have Signature weapon, its better to build 43311. We need only 1 good set for particular element which can be also used in future characters and can be transferred to other character in ToA.
can’t deny that. though i must say farming 4 costs will take much less time than waiting for the illusory realm and events. the issue comes with the rolling, if you get shafted which ik most do, then you will hsve to wait a long time or echo/tacit field farm (which the rng of it dropping again sucks). signatures while giving lot of crit also give lots of dmg bonuses too (40-60%iirc) to we gotta keep that in mind :) if u get a good 44111 u can also switch it around if you so wished 👍
@@yun3_ If you are a grinder, you will have many 3* proper DMG bonus echoes and even if ur not grinder, we only need like 3 DPS characters decently build to clear most of the content in the game and it's not hard to get them from echo selector and Echo events, players will probably have 2-3 DMG bonuses set of they followed every event and redeemed stuff properly. 4 cost echo is not so easy to roll too, as a particular character who needs resonance DMG more will make other DMG bonuses insignificant and we got like 4-5 attack type DMG bonus in a echo sub stat so it makes it even harder to get a worthy one. While in 3 cost echoes you better off with 1 cr or cd roll. It is recommended to get a 5* weapon of each type with crit main stat and it's not that hard with 2 5* crit weapons in standard banner and by managing pulls we can make that happen.
I will say, i actually have to disagree with having a descent bit of proper(2x crit or 4-5 usefull substats imo) 3 costs. So i only have calcharo and havoc rover as my dps. As such, I ROLL EVERYTHING related to those. even farming their respective tacit fields and overworld farming, i have gone though A LOT of em, and only have a "few(3-4 each set) usable (2x crit) 3 cost echoes. i do have and EXCESS of other elemental on set 3 costs rn tho, but ik how fast i can burn through em. So while it may not be hard to get them sometimes/ event, getting a good one is a different story imo. Due to how dmg works in this game czcams.com/video/_ArGoUD30EE/video.html she talks about how u actually would prefer atk% and flat atk over dmg% for the substats (usually, and not always depending on the character). Dmg% also is usually given in the weapon and 5 set echo :)
@@yun3_I meant to say, proper means 3cost belonging to proper set and having 3 substats useful, getting 2 crit + proper DMG bonus on a set is very rare, you don't need to farm tacet fields, bc lvling 3 dps characters to lvl 90 and their imp talents to lvl 10 is more imp than min-maxing echoes in early stage which we eventually get as game progresses. I heard Lvl 90 char talent 10 lvl 90 weapon combined gives around 30%-40% DMG boost over lvl 80 which makes it more imp than farming tacet fields. We can min max crit as the game progresses it's only in the early stage, as some will have crit stats 5* weapons which can be used on multiple characters that can be obtained easier than rolling 2 crits + proper attack bonus. As echo upgrading resources are rare and farming tacet won't give much (2-3 gold +3 purple tubes), don't commit fully in early game, it's better to save ur condensed wave plates and daily farm for character and weapon lvling up materials which surely gives more advantage over tacet field farming.
Am f2p i used 44111 and 43311 in same time and i got 29 stars with 80 lvl characters and i have only two main dps so i think you can do whatever you want have fun and do your thing
I just want to share my opinion on this. Tenten's video was made during 1.0, at that time there is no char like jinhsi or changli which have very overstacked dmg% on resonance skill. ACTUALLY for Jinhsi as I'm maining her myself, double element is the WORST possible setup as long as you have the signature weapon (i.e. S0R1). Doesn't matter if you only care about Damage Per Screenshot, nor Average Damage. If you are considering to use CR Jue (80-90+ CR), then 44111 with CR CD ATK ATK ATK has the highest crit hit damage AND the highest average damage. However if you want to use CD Jue (probably around 60-70+ CR), then 433 with CD Ele Atk comes the best with only a VERY SMALL MARGIN compared to 441 with CD CD Atk (even this is due to the reason the CD surpassed 300% which I assume the marginal loss is due to diminishing return, too much CD). I agree with you that most of this math scientist in Wuwa most likely come from Genshin, me personally as well. However you can not clearly copy what's happening in genshin to wuwa, wuwa has no bennet, no char that gives you a fkin 1300-1400 flat atk that will IMMEDIATELY makes ATK/ATK% less impactful than crit. Considering this fact, ATK% and flat atk actually is a good substat here, way more impactful than in Genshin. However, wuwa does have a TON of DMG%, for example let's talk see a regular carry like Calcharo, if you are using 433 double electro and a full 5piece void thunder set, at least you already have 100% Electro dmg bonus, which genshin can't have pre-kazuha. I found by playing on some calcs that dmg% actually has lower upper line before hitting the "diminishing return" area (in my case, it's around 150ish%). So yeah, actually having atk%, is way better here than in genshin. Lastly the thing is, it's funny that people only care about the Crit Hit Damage, people tend to forget that most of the time, 441 have higher crit rate, leads to higher dps. Unless 433 beats 441 in both crit hit damage AND average damage, then I see no justification saying 433 is ABSOLUTELY better than 441.
so yes, during 1.0 there was changli or jinshi, but the math would ofc still stand the same as now. and simply put, it was just wrong. another comment put it best he would “present his own bad takes as the objective way to play the game”. “dont use 44111 cuz its trash”. trying to enforce the way u play the game aint cool. and its super not cool if what ur imposing is literally wrong my previous video was abt how atk rly good as it can even compare with crit. (comparing weapons and 4 cost echoes) i didnt compare atk% to dmg% in this game as ive already seen from many cc that they are VERY VERY comparable. even from my own experience, switching a 3 cost lightning to atk on calcharo resulting IIRC like a .5% dmg loss at lvl 80. at lvl 90, this may go into atk% cost favor from my intial testing, 43311 will hit harder than 44111 in both crit and non crit scenarios. but due to the rly high cr, it actually becomes neck and neck. with my personal build actually performing better with 44111
Lmao but that's not the original argument, whether we already have Changli or not. The original argument came from Gacha Smack and he's saying to farm 44111 because it's EASIER. E-A-S-I-E-R. Not stronger. EASIER. But math freaks like Tenten can't help himself but to respond and show off his math prowess while completely missing the point. EASIER =/= STRONGER. TLDR Gacha Smack: I'm making this video to say farm for 44111 if you value your time because it's easier. Tenten: LOL LMAO ROFL You're wrong according to my math because 43311 is stronger. You guys are clowns if you keep defending Tenten at this point. "He made his video back in 1.0" lolwut as if that changes anything.
@@justcrap3703 look mate I'm not even defending him at any point. My point is people so sensitive about this issue due to no char with heavy stacked built-in dmg% like changli and jinhsi. In fact in current state of the game 441 is actually competitive or even better in some scenario. I myself use 441 not because it is easier, but actually better too. I remember seeing tenten's community post where he is saying that 441 is not any different from cos3 because he claim that we NEED to spend waveplate if we farm cos4, in fact, it's not, I'm pretty sure during that video released, he probably doesn't know that we dont need to spend waveplate if camp farming for cos4.
@@justcrap3703 Byon def had a good point and was just sharing his opinion, not really defending tenten. I agree with what they're saying just and just shared my pov on why I personally didn't believe time frame mattered too much
@@ByonLe7 With my personal findings, It seems that even if you do have don't really have inherit dmg% in ur kit or weapon, 44111 can be fairly competitive if you have godly substats on all ur echoes. But if you did have a weapon that gave lots of dmg% or in ur kit, it only takes a decent build for 44111 and 43311 to be comparable :) 44111 is only rly good if you have a rly good build. gotchu on the second part. Ive never seen his community posts so I didnt know. But even with this, just playing the game, how do u make that oversight yk, that it costs waveplates to farm 4 costs? it just takes 1 boss kill to realize it doesnt no?
But to be honest I didn’t watched that video and it confused me so much that I didn’t really understand what he’s saying so I simply ignored all of it.
ah ok. I honestly had to have added at least 40 mins of watch time for his video cuz his arguments and reasonings were so difficult to interpret and honestly just didn't make sense
After several groups came up with calculator UI that allow you to input stats and the like, I mess around with a couple of them (wutheringtools was the first one I tried) Well, some optimization on the calculator is still needed, but turns out I was also under the assumption that 43311 is end all be all, and that substat does not matter. Totally wrong. Substat matters, and it is actually the thing that push two sets very close to each other, to the point that 44111 can come out higher if your character has leviathan level of investment. I tried the calculator with Jinhsi and Jiyan, all skill max, all inherents, lv90 char and sig weapons, all echoes at 25 but only tune the minimum double crit, no outro buff or buffs. Result shows that at the base line, 43311 do give out higher maximum damage under reasonable crit chance (around 69-72%, not factoring character's sequence buff as calculated using S0). However, the average damage of 43311 is almost equal if not less than 44111 due to 44111 has insane crit chance (90-95+). What does this mean? If you have higher investments of sequence (for example, Jiyan S3 that gives crit chance and damage) you can even go 44111 Crit dam, Crit dam once Aero has two choices of Cost4 and make your crit dam skyrockets. While using the advantage of easier to farm echoes to fish out a couple of DMG type bonus to balancing things out. 43311 starts to feel like a beginner's investment instead of best in slot, isn't it?
honestly I think it's debatable in the beginner set between the two, so both have their upsides. I feel 43311 wins slightly win mid investment while 44111 would win with endgame builds due to getting more crit stats. cuz god does missing crit sucks when ur hit is either 30k or 100k
@@yun3_ Agree wholeheartly. Reason for my last sentence above is that with sheer amount of Maldable Echo we receive from Illusive realms and event that we can select cost3 main stats, we absolutely have the minimum entry for 43311 without tuning for everyone. However, since substats is really major, we cannot always rely on limited amount of cost3 correct main stats to go through. Plus, factoting in weapon that does not have crit rate, and you really need tp ensure that you roll enough crit to keep the rate consistent and even out the average damage. Crit fishing is fine, but boy isn't it frustrating to have to restart a good run due to missing crit.
100%. crit damage ascension honestly is so bad in this game, cuz even with 5x crit with cr weapon and cdmg echo, ur sitting at 65-70 crit. 44111 is just so much more consistent
@@yun3_ What actually is the deal breaker for both 44111 and 43311 is substat. I am doing some calculations to plan whether I should roll Zhezhi's weapon or not. I am complete flabbergasted. Despite not having 44111 options for Glacio, but if you have Stringmaster maxed out, and roll at least min roll double crit and atk on all echo piece (If you get more than min roll on one piece, some other can even not have any roll), You can actually do more average damage throughout her kit with Yinlin's stringmaster than her own signature weapon due to crit consistency. Here is the fun part. If you use Zhezhi on 44111 set moonlit, you can even go 44111 double crit dmg and still do more damage than her signature. All these shenanigans are possible all due to substats. TL;DR tressure your double crit echoes with care, even if they have 2 dead stats and min roll. They make all the differences.
@@HeliumHe I assume you'll be comparing to abyss surges. Though I don't fully know the math, I assume it'll be 8% off. i hope u dont mind letting us know ur results here :)
A lot of times, I find that doing research myself or looking more at PLAYER guide, with social ( discord and all ) or on a wiki looking at stat directly is oftenly better. I don't know why but lot of ytb aren't good at guide for gacha games. I'm not saying there isn't any good ytb, ur Jiaoqu video are great examples of how player too can be quite wrong and even for such other games ( as genshin ) I did find some great ytb for them. Finding good guides, between ytb or player are like 50/50 on a banner sometimes, u can't win it everytimes
i don’t watch guides too much so dont know exactly the quality/accuracy of the stuff out there. but yah definitely, it can be 50/50. love mr iwintolose tho
when i see damage test videos of 2 sets, in a realistic rolls or senarios there's like 10(best senario)-20(worst case of bad rolls) percent damage difference, and you can definetly clear tower with 44111, it all depends on rolls
Think in some cases like Jinshi with signature weapon she gets so many dmg bonuses when full stacked that you can throw away the 33 and keep 44 for real
The whole 'deminishing returns' thing irks me beyond belief. It prevents the community from actually understanding that damage is gained the most efficient way by either introducing a new damage bucket, or increasing your existing damage buckets to achieve the most balanced outcome possible. That is to say: 4+4+4 = 6+4+2 = 12 total statpoints However: 4×4×4 is always the way to devide said stat points to get the highest product when you have 3 buckets. There is no other way possible other than adding a new damage bucket: 3×3×3×3. That's it, thats all you need to know about character building. Saying build attack until deminishing returns, then crit, is wild, because the returns are comparatively deminished by you IGNORING A WHOLE NEW DAMAGE BUCKET.
Hmm I dunno. 10-12 mins into the vid and the points you were trying to argue still don't click. You seem to say yeah, 41 with god substats are slightly better than dookie 33. Like, what you seem to say does not differ much to what tenten says, but you are picking apart his words rather than the message. Disclaimer, I am not in tenten's camp. I actually dislike several of his takes in the other game. And I think his explaination in the 43311 vid was rather bad if not condescending. The reason I'd generally go for 43311 is that it was only possible in 2 sets (now 3 sets). Second, the cost to level echoes was astronomical, it's improved a bit now. But trying to get the 44111 with good substats, and then planning to transition into 43311 with good substats later is more work and resources, to me. Unless 44111 is more optimal for the character and I plan to stick with it. Also, like the other commenter here. If you only do tacet fields and not go around hunting echoes, you might have a lot more 3-cost and less 1-cost than you think.
That's a fair point. My point for the vid is that 44111 is not bad and most certainly comparable to 43311. The issue I had with tenten's vid was the way he tried to justify 43311 being better. If had simply proved it using math, whatever, thats fine. But his reasons were so flawed and biased. Ex. Bc 3 3 will beat 4 1 generally when in a VACCUM. that means 33 > 41 in all scenarios. I personally dont see the point in transitioning purposefully imo as from my own tests, both sets are comparable. But for those who do, 44111 will be a few % behind 43311 but gains a significant amount of consistency due to high cr. So if people really need that 5% dmg increase or want that high consistency sitting at 90 cr, thats fine. I just think that new pieces come and u should use whichever comes to u first. I gotchu. From my personal experience, while lots of 3 cost echo do drop from the tacit fields, they generally are in the wrong set/element. So even with less 1 drops drops, bc there is slighly higher odds of getting an (atk) 1 cost, cuz less mainstats to fight for , i think it has been pretty even for me :)
I feel like for the calculations around 5:00, you shouldn't just use the pity numbers, but more so average 20% drops WITH the pity drop. Since the actual droprate will always be higher than just the pity droprate, since the Echo can drop before that. So for example: The actual general droprate for 4-costs would be ~55.55%, and the actual general droprate for 3-costs would be ~33.88%. Also, the additional 1-cost should also be taken into account, since 1-costs can also be quiete hard to get when needing a lot of them, especially when they all have to be diffetent ones, for the set to work.
oh gotchu. i didn’t really consider the 20% and just used the hard pity rate. i dont know how one would calculate the actual drop rate including that 20% but will take ur word for it. i didnt include the 1 costs for the same reason i didnt include the other 4 or 3 cost. though a better comparison would’ve taken account all 5 different echo slots and then see the% then.
@@yun3_ Easiest way to calculate something that has a pity is honestly just by using a program to simulate that. The same way you can also calculate that on average, you have a 66.66% chance of getting a limited 5-star character, over a standard 5-star
Ah yes, Tenten, not surprised. The reason he quit Genshin was because people often call him out on how bad his "theory crafting" are. Just go back to his "Raiden bad" video, Raiden turns out to be the best character in the game. Or the "Rosaria better than Shenhe". Most of his "theory crafting" is more of a "feeling crafting". Basically saying what he thinks without data to back it up.
If he were to say like I "think" x,y, or z. like whatever yk. Like I think this combos is the best, or I think this set is the best for me. cuz thats an opinion yk. but when you start putting these opinions and instead startting saying i "know", making them look like facts -_-
It's still a viable and easier to build 44111 while you're still farming for the BiS. If not for people pushing min-maxing to get the best stats,44111 couldn't have been bashed too hard. it's a SIMPLE EASY BUILD to push through the game. Jinhsi having the Attribute DMG (I assume ignores elemental resistance) and Changli's built in fusion dmg stacking with def pen passives makes them really easy to build with 44111 and won't have a problem malding min-maxing over the 3-costs that are harder to farm. He honestly lost me when he said 44111 is not easy. And yeah people should check out what the Math Gremlin is cooking on how the math is mathing for thegame
And I'm so surprised ppl were so apprehensive on 44111 even if it a few percent behind at most. And it also is so depend to character so to like generalize that u shouldnt even consider 44111... I don't watch his content but from some of these comments, apparently he just takes info from CN theory crafters and doesnt actually do his math? idk, cannot confirm
Nah, it depends. I dislike farming. Getting 3* echoes just happens as you play the game and there's those 3* selector tickets too that come with elemental damage. 43311 is easier to build if your really casual.
😩those 3* selectors doesn't even come in a regular basis it's either on events,battle pass,side events and end-game content. Even if you farm tacet fields the 3 costs main stats still rolls over so many variations on the right stat and set, 1 cost echoes barely has 3 main stats. And if we're taking about resources, 44111 straight out helps as a placeholder for casuals while they still doesn't have any 3 costs that has min-maxxed sub stats in it. In the long run 43311 is a late game build but resources wise you'll spend more time building 3 costs than 1 Even a Jinhsi with her signature weapon can literally use 44111 even without the elemental dmg bonuses from 2 pcs of 3 cost echoes because of how much dmg her nuke does
@@zealgaming8161 oh thats very true. I personally dont mind literally just waiting 2 minutes as I just like watch a yt vid in the mean time. But ur right as they def can come naturally as u play. Tho I will say, when u are getting ascension materials, U also can get some drops if that counts lol
So, as a big dumdum, i don't understand what the actual difference between a 4/1 and a 3/3 is. Like, if you gave the same type of substats to them what actually makes the difference? Is it cause 4 can give crit while 3 gives element damage? I'm still lost cause all these math numbers go over my head.
np. so 4 1 can give either 22cr/44cdmg + 18% atk +150 flat atk vs 3 3 with 30%+30%= 60% dmg bonus + 200 flat atk with 0 substats and looking at only the 2 echoes, 3 3 wins easily. the reason why this unfair is bc crit needs cr to function and then cdmg. so the scenerio favors the 3 3. But, if u have LITERALLY godly echoes for the 4 1 max (cr,cdmg,atk%, flat atk)substat, 4 1 will win. Regardless, the entire point doesnt even matter ;-; bc its not what happens in game cuz u shouldnt be in a scenario where u only have a 4 1 or a 3 3 echo. U should have 5pc echoes and substats. so while in a vacuum is true, in game it isnt. tldr, the vid i was critiquing was in super bad faith
Yune please save the wuwa theorycrafter society. Tenten is a fraud, Gacha smack is overemotional, rexlent doesnt do these type of guides, etc Please save us
How good is going for 43311 with lower rarity 3 cost echoes (purple/blue) when youre poor? The substat amount rolled per turning is the same for all rarities: with substats making up quite a bit for your damage, and with tuners being easily available for lower costs (and lower rarity echoes costing lower to level up - purple cost 80% of gold per lv, blue 50% of purple per lv), are they worth using?
so 43311 and 44111 are generally around the same ish level, with 44111 doing better if you got the crit stuff. it just depends on substats when talking about the 5*. if you just don’t have the funds, using 4*/3* echoes is perfectly fine. but i personally do not think people should plan on using the 4*/3* echoes for too long and ideally upgrade to a 5* one when possible. this is bc ur getting less on the mainstat, 2nd main stat, and also getting less rolls cuz 4* can only go to lvl 20 and 15 for blue iirc. hope that helps :)
43311 is pretty garbage with a signature weapon, since signature weapons love giving tons of buffs. To the point that more elemental damage from echoes is already a diminishing return. For example on Changli, it's technically better to go half element and half attack, than double element. Especially since her signature weapon has such a high base attack. Just unfortunate that fusion doesn't have a 2nd 4slot. Heck, both Jinhsi and Changli has element on their kit.
We def are generally pretty saturated with dmg bonus from our weapons, kit, and potentially echoes too with the 3 cost and set bonus. ATK as such is rly dang gud. which i mentioned in another vid, but thx for pointing this out;)
I'll do you one further and not only Changli, but majority of 5 stars will enjoy Atk/Elemental more if you decide to go 43311 and once you roll your echoes. The average damage difference is very minuscule, some have one above the other, but the ease of farming for base echo is very very huge.
@@HeliumHe I do have a question. Due to Changli's super high base atk, and knowing what I know on how calcharo( who has less base atk) performs just as well with a 4 cost atk echo as a 4 cost crit. This only moves to 2-3% less once u add buffs like verina/rejuv. would changli actually do more dmg using an attack 4 cost if u run dmg%/atk% 3 costs?
@@yun3_ I'm on it. Same as usual, assume double crit on all echoes, no buff, everything max, S0R1 Blazing Brillance: (Lib/Forte) Crit rate 4 cost: 58,074 / 44,484 (Crit 66.5/261) Atk 4 cost: 55,232 / 41,758 (Crit 44.5/261.5) Crit dmg 4 cost: 53,603 / 41,059 (Crit 44.5/305) Crit rate wins here due to average hit as it has more crit rate, but fishing for crit would make Atk do more. As for max damage when crit: Crit rate 4 cost: 73,228 / 56,091 (Crit 66.5/261) Atk 4 cost: 84,047 / 64,544 (Crit 44.5/261.5) Crit dmg 4 cost: 85,544 / 65,525 (Crit 44.5/305)
wow ty for the math. u dont need to do thr math again, but assuming u did have 2x crit everything and atk% everything, (regardless the roll value, i personally used the avg of 8.1cr 16.2 cdmg and 8.6atk iirc), how do u think the results would change?
The math calculation kind of misses the argument, but not that important since it doesn't give the full picture. The general argument made when making 433 vs 441, the 1st 4 cost is using crit rate main stats. So automatically the 2nd 4 is c.dmg. So the accurate representation is 60% dmg bonus vs 44 c.dmg + atk%. Not 22% c.r.
i would have to disagree as they are interchangeable in this particular scenario. ex. if using a cr weapon, the first assumed 4cost would actually be cdmg. it just depends :)
@@yun3_ Personally, I would use double crt dmg 4 cost in such scenario. There's also difference of value in calculation. When you pick c.r instead of c.dmg, it definitely help your case more. But yeah, it's not 5 piece equipment and won't give us actual result.
yep 100%. the issue is, if u go to the chart with all the lines of the stat gain. we can see how crit doesnt gain much till it gets more. even without the chart, even with a 400cdmg, with a 5cr. ;-; not it my next video will test with all 5 pieces :)
I went 44111 on all characters without crit weapons. I don't want to waste my time grinding double crit rolls as f2p for 43311. 43311 is not worth grinding so early into game when echo xp is hard to get.
being lvl 60, I prefer 44111. Missing crit simply just sucks. with 43311, even with 2x crit everything and a crit weapon, ur only getting 60-75cr. Missing ur HVC rover ult going from 110k to 30k hurts my soul. especially when it's like 3 times in a row against the simulations. and what's the tradeoff? losing 0-5%dmg...
I heard that 44111 is an easy investment since every 4 cost enemy are infinite and only locked behind 2 minute mark after being defeated... And no, it can give you similar benefits as 43311 but not strong as the latter set...
yep I will say the first statement is true. U can literally farm all day. the second one honestly depends on ur character and weapon, but 44111 is generally a few percent within 43311, and sometimes outclassing it. If ur curious, my next vid will test it in game :)
@@yun3_ I wanted to make a choice if I want Xiangli Yao to be 44111 or 43311, honestly I might want 44111 since he'll be my 2nd DPS and I've been tired on trying to kill more and more echo until they went extinct that I had to stop lol
@@Riley_MDS I personally have just been farming for 4 costs even though I already have a good 43311 set up ( cuz i like 44111/more consistent). After using calcharo, I must saying even with a rly gud build, missing a crit fukin sucks with a 43311
i def would recommend seeing how xiangli yao has a 1500% ult multi, similar to havoc rover ult iirc. my personal experience with rover (fuk u game, why no s6 gimmie that 25 cr), having my 110k nuke go to 30k ☺️🔫
TY :) I don't know this guy too well. But like does he actually do theory crafting? and do ppl actually watch him for that? After having watched another vid by him, the fact he was comparing 44111 to 4311 is like ;-;
@@distritochristianangeloa.157 oh ok. I will say this video and his next video regarding comparing the "secret build" and 44111 definitely do NOT look like he got it from CN as it seemed to only be personal testing/anecdote
Yeah but are you going to be satisfied with Crit rate, crit dmg and atk% substat on your echo or will you farm more to get that relevant % dmg bonus as well? You can do that but don't go complain about being poor in terms of echo EXP.
i personally keep it as long as get either 2x crit with 3 usable stats or maybe 1x crit with 5 nice stats. I already have 2x crit on my characters with other nice stuff, but will ofc just take what i can get. according to maygi, due to dmg% being fairly saturated in a 43311( iirc, pls correct if im wrong), even flat atk would perform better than dmg% in most cases
Nah Atk and damage bonus has to be better value than Crit that’s why everyone loves to play Atk% weapons and prays to get Atk% and flat Atk bevor they even think about Crit 😂. I think he just forgot to switch back from Verina to his Main Dps bevor recording that Video 🤔.
idk if your next video will have this or not. But i think it would be great if you have it. I already have 44331 the substats isn't really amazing but just okayish (like have 2 from atk, crit, er). Should i change it to 44111? or just keep that? Like the consideration to swap or not if i already use it. i didn't watch any guide before, but it feels more natural to fill all echo cost slot (12 cost).
@@assault4537 hello :) so my in game tests cannot do this as i can only work with my echoes. But I 100% can with the sheet math in the second part of my vid. My previous vid did it too so u can go there to see how i did it. but basically, the scenario has builds with 2x crit 1 atk% and switch out weapons and see which won. and another where it was a total of 3 cr, 2 cdmg(half the crit rolls) and 2 atk% rolls. i will do the same thing again so while filling out all 12 will seem more right, though i only have my word, i will say my 44111 43311 are very very similar and will 100% come down to substats. so my advice is if u do have a godly 3 cost echo, maybe aim for the 43311. but if i dont, i believe 44111 will be just fine. so which ever build comes to u, use it. hope that helps :)
the bennet bullshit in Genshin still goes on nowadays, people think his C6 is bad because "insert bullshit" Bennet C6 was always an amazing constellation , people were just too stupid to realize it, OR wanted to be able to have the cake and eat it took. I know we're talking about wuwa but it was just an example with something people did and were totally wrong, like in this case with echo builds. And trust me, in a couple of years, people WILL still think 43311 its still the best because of that video they saw 434 years ago.
i honestly dont get how ppl disliked bennet c6. realistically speaking, it only really effected physical and certain characters with wonky infusions. so basically 99% of the player base wouldnt ever be affected negatively cuz they dont use physical. my bro does use eula and leaves his bennet at c5, based, though i always tell him to do pyro eula. but in so many other teams, pyro infusions is either a benefit and the dmg bonus too from it. but hey who knows, maybe if my actual 44111 does gud enough, ppl’s perception will change 👍
@@yun3_ its stupid even if its just for eula EVERY pyro lose 15% damage Plus all the reactions you can do with pyro infused normal attacks, its just insane to think his C6 is bad, catalyst and bow users can't even be infused, so its realyl just for 2 characters in the whole game, and for those same characters there are better supports and team, even back in the days 1.2 etc.. Also if you know to play this game, AND use the pyro infused eula attack to melt her E she's gonna EASILY go over 100k with that only if you have her built well with her weapon. Its just stupid to not use his C6 PURELY for normal attacks that are maybe 10% of her total damage, cause we all know all eula damage comes from her burst, which cannot be infused anyway...
for tenten to say crit is an upcharge because you have to build both crit rate and crit damage and therefore it is twice as expensive is not valid, because in this game you start with 150 cdmg (50 in genshin terms) so early investments are crit rate hungry in this crit rate starved game, 44111 is absolutely the way to go for whales and high investment builds, but for casual players who dont care enough to roll for good subs and can skip farming by using selectors, 43311 would probably be the way to go.
yah def true. Honestly didn't catch that. just gotta get that CR up in the really beginning and get whatever u can afterwards. There def is value in both builds tho :) cuz screw missing crits
150 cdmg works the same as 50 cdmg in genshin, as in genshin we add ( 100+50+ cd)/100 multiplier whereas in wuwa we have (150+cd)/100 Multiplier in calculation
Blatantly wrong. We do not start with 150CD, massive misconception. We, just like genshin and HSR, start with 50cd in Wuwa. I don't know why they keep the 100 displayed but thats just saying when you crit you do the same damage, it's your baseline. Anything above that is what's actually amplifying your damage into a real crit. I do agree that you should prioritize crit rate in the early game but it's not because you have 150cd, it's because even 50cd is enough to do more damage.
@@AmythstGuardian please don’t say blatantly wrong when you’re blatantly wrong yourself, I put 50 in genshin terms in parenthesis if you could read because I’m already aware of this. I also personally think the way wuwa labels it makes more sense as 150 cdmg would be a 1.5 times multiplier so it’s easier to understand for my kind.
next video don't bother with tenten or ben ben or hen hen just post a normal showcase of ur story and it would be 10 times better then all of this hearing him yapping pointlessly
my next video will be just like my atk video and just to the point. Will showcase the build + dmg numbers in game. and the second part using sheet math. I just felt like this video had to be made cuz like i felt if not, the other vid could misinform ppl, especially newer players which i do not want
To be honest, if you have crit weapon, you can go 3+3+3+3+3 with crit roles, i try to build monk girl this way and, to be honest, her shield s#cks, but the dmg she does is sometimes bigger than jiyan's 😂 But yeah 4+4+1+1+1 is just kinda s#cks if you consider echo materials, the only way you can get them by farming tacet discords wich gives 3 point echoes, a lot, i could build 6 fusion characters now Either way, chads go 4+4+4 Rate and rate and dmg
I never took 44111 to practice. I just understand that my units work fine with atk percent as well as elemental percent. So I just use atk and maybe energy regen instead for a bit til I get slemental dam percent.
ive used atk 3 cost for calcharo for my and it's like .5% off from my dmg% one so i dont think u need to stress on getting a dmg% one. I will know for certain if 44111 is worth soon tho after I do my in game tests
Not considering the math and spreadsheet BS from 1010's video reply to GachaSmack's statement, his video makes no sense when GS's original video has "RIGHT NOW" in it's title. Take note that it was only 2 weeks after release. 44111 was meant to be an easy build especially for casuals who don't have an ungodly amount of time farming per day. GS didn't even claim anywhere in his video that 44111 was better than 43311, just easier. 1010 just blew it out of proportion with his "calculus". Lol
i have 0 idea on any early game wuwa stuff as i only started like 2 weeks after released and only watched any videos like 4-5 weeks later. so i dont really know what happened with GS and tenten, but he was so adamant that 44111 was trash. do u have any idea why?
@@yun3_ No idea. I guess he just wants to be seen as an expert "theorycrafter" in WuWa early on. Haha. But for more context I highly suggest you also watch GS's orig video about his 44111 take. Btw great work on your vid. Cheers!
All i can say is: People just make videos.. even they know most of them is full of bullshit, but its for the views, not for the info.. Doing calculation on a game FULL of RNG is in itself an idiotic act. In the first place what you need it luck, neither 44111 noir 43311 , because it all come down on what rolls you get. Talking about "in theory bla bla bla" its all bullshit. a set 44111 with good rolls will always be better than a 43311 with shitty rolls, meaning its mostly "theory" and almost zero practice because the people actually had insane stats on BOTH builds and can check this are a % so small that its impossible to make a statistic. In the end, play the fak you want or whatever rolls better stats xD
that's fair. I def was at some part I cant lie. The issue is not the fact he is simplifying. The issue is that the "simplification" is outright wrong in almost the entirety of the video. Again, being a bit wrong is fine as we all can mistakes. As another comment stated, he "Presents his own bad takes as the objective way to play the game", WHILE BEING WRONG. Trying to enforce a way to play the game already isn't cool. Now to do it with misinformation is super not cool
i always took his video as "43311 is better for casuals cuz i dont need to farm to get them in early" in which, i agree. but since apparently it's not. i'll just make this statement my own i just play illusive realm and other events and ill have the elite elemental piece i need. on the other hand, it took me around 20 times to get a healing bonus from the big turtle. so even now and i like smack's vids, i'm still in the idea of 43311 is better for early especially for roaming the overworld i still have 7 selectable elites. but i dont have a 1 cost ATK for moonlit clouds or a crit piece for lingering tunes ;-; (and i dont want to farm. i'd rather wait from the dailies rewards and tacet fields lol)
gotchu. i will say depending on how ur rolls go and particular situation, both 44111 and 43311 are equally viable early, mid, and late game imo. i cannot lie, i just do not fully understand how ppl did their early game. me personally, bc i played genshin and hsr, ik what to do. had blue and purple echoes unleved basically to lvl 35/40. as soon as i got there spent ALL my wave plates 60 or so? regardless, i literally had endgame 2x crit in 3 days basically. though ik most ppl did not do that. as such, i dont understand why ppl would focus on “early 5* star echoes when u basically are at end game as soon as u hit lvl 40 imo” also i forgot turtle existed which my friend later pointed out and yah no, farming that sucks. same for heron iirc? i dont rly farm for 1 costs cuz i think u just get so many cuz they build up imo. unless ur rolling like all of then of a particular kinda (i have like 0 havoc & lightning 1 costs) and easily 20 of like each other element
@@yun3_ the thing is smack's and tenten's video was made where casual people are mostly around UL25-35. (i do think im at ul 40-45 already that time) so i assumed that's what they meant by early.(my casual sister at ul 37 is running blue unleveled echoes lol) and in that time, you can't even get 100% chance of gold. so the free gold 3 cost echoes are a huge boost to ease your missions and first kills of bosses so even to this day, if new people ask me what they should build, ill straight up say go for 33 cuz it's free and max rarity.
idk about arguments and i dont want that but i might get attacked so in their 1st videos, some people are saying "im running 4431" or "i dont have the time to farm" so my focus is about how easy it is to get , the time frame or the common level/databanks of the player that time and who uses it. common level ---25-45 easiness= 33 from the warzone type event and illusive realm + the daily quest login event forgot the event name which you have or need to do so no time wasted users= people who dont want to farm/don't have time so for 43311 you need to farm 4 11 for 44111 you need to farm for 44 111
@@frostice961 ah ok. I joined a bit late so had no idea they had videos regarding this topic till I was informed by another comment I responded to before this. Those 3* selectors definitely helped as I also def utilized it. My statement as I said a bit earlier was that I didnt even bother with echoes until I could get gold ones and/or when they were guaranteed. (I was basically naked)I thought that advice was for people hitting lvl 40 and starting to farm. regardless, I do like gachasmack's take as it's just about accessibility. Again like what I said in the video, I still dislike tenten's take as he is refuting the accessibility of 44111 with the dmg of 43311 I personally believe that you should not care about ur build till u can get gold echoes/lvl 40. And when u do, farm whichever one is easier to as both are good
@@frostice961 Most ppl are generally chill in my comments so far. I have seen people get heated but thats fine imo as discussions/ (functional conflict) is good. If it gets really bad ex. racism sexism etc. Ill just delete the comments or just ban(hope i dont ever need to do) I really appreciate ur input as I missed out on that time period u mentioned iirc. and going by what u said, ur def right :) though I must say in the future for new players who dont have this headstart(3 cost stuff) or the illusory realm is not out, I would say at that point, both are in the same boat, favoring 44111 as 44 would be easier to farm that the 3 cost 👍
some ppl actually mentioned its the other way around where u should perhaps consider either 44111 or 43311(with 1 atk 3 cost) as sig weapons have been giving 40-60% dmg bonus
Because if I stumbled apon it while tryna do research, I have no doubt the newer players who dont know any better would too. regardless of when the time frame is, the information that is provided again is wrong. Besides the stuff that was actually wrong, getting the right answer using the wrong equation is still wrong
44111 is using 11 slots instead of 12, so from the get go you are wasting a slot. Secondly if you use another 4 to get 44 crit damage, the slot that you wasted can easily have an average of a 15 crit damage and 7 crit rate. Thirdly the 3 cost has 30% damage, that you will never get using 4+4 Your stats might "look" nice, but you will lose to much stats, its bad, its better to go 43311 and use an attack % 3 slot, but again wasting a Full slot 11 out 12 means you ARE losing stats using 44111 Pseudo intellectual bullshit
I think it's fair to think that 11 will be worse than 12 cuz it takes less slots. But in the end, that part doesnt actually matter and what does is how would 41 vs 33 actually compare in a real game situation I would say that the same would apply to damage bonus as you can get quite a lot from substats alone. While what ur saying is true, i could say u will never get the extra 44 cdmg from the extra 4 piece. 5 piece set also gives an extra 30% so at the end of a build with all ur extra bonuses, excluding traces, it's actually pretty saturated. U dont need to take my word for it, and can watch the video by Maygi. My next video will test this in game so u can tune in then :)
@@yun3_ I think it depends on unit, but dmg bonus from substats isn't good enough compared to crit in some scenario. If that unit damage is spread out evenly to basic, skill and ultimate, the value is simply less. For such units, imo it's best to aim for elemental dmg with crit substats because it's unconditionally affect all of their dmg. When testing, I really hope you'll be doing not just basic attack or where it's high on dmg bonus for simplicity sake, but also where the dmg bonus lack for full context.
@@shiroeikami8467 good point.👍 The echoes I will be testing mostly only have 2x crit and maybe 1-2 dmg bonus stuff. I will have to limit this factor to be as fair and as such use the stat with 0 or as little to 0 dmg bonus. ty for bring this to my attention and I will keep this in mind
@yun3_ I told you that unused 1 slot in 44111, can roll one crit roll and one crit damage roll, so you are substituting 44 crit damage for an average of 15 crit damage and 7 crit rate "to clerify that 1 slot with double crit roll is 7x2 + 15 = 30 crit value vs 44 crit value" if you add the 25% attack and other stats, you are losing a lot, each slot can hold up to 6 stats the main plus the 5 sub stats, 44111 will give you 44 crit damage up front, but you will scam yourself out of 6 stats that you could have gotten from that unused slot, there is no where to get 30% damage bonus, the max roll you get on a liberation and skill bonus etc is 11%? That's is not comparable to thev30% you get, plus you still get the other damage bonuses with the 43311. 44111 is a short cut for "good looking stats" but you will be losing anywhere from 12 up to 15% damage. You can use it as a place holder set, but the end game set that gives you max damage for your characters is the 43311. Btw if you are not getting sequences, you will need all the stat damage you could get, recommending 44111 is terrible advice, especially for f2p and low spenders, because they can't afford a damage deficit that big, this is why 44111 is only recommended for jinshi at S6, because she gets so much stats from her sequence, that 12~15% is nothing
9:22 Messed up on the math as pointed out by a viewer. The math is correct using the same situation that was presented by tenten. The math is INCORRECT when factoring the flat atk, 200 atk gained from the 2 3 cost echoes while the 4 1 only gets 150. That is 100% on me. MB. This does make enough of a difference in this raw scenario when only comparing the 3 3 and 41
3 3 (+200atk)
1200x 1.6= 1920
1920x1.5 = 2880
(1920x95)+(2880x05)= 196800
4 1 (+150 atk)
1395x1.824=2544.48 crit
(2548.48x42)+(1395x58)= 187946.16
4.7% in favor of 3 3 rather than 4 1 if raw. But as soon as you add more echoes and stats, this will ofc differ. (BTW, this is with my echoes. an actual godly 4 1 with maxed rolls would beat the 3 3, also not even including the dmg% substats too rn)( again must reiterate, though this seems rly unfair for the 3 3, it is also unfair for the 4 1 as crit needs crit to do well as stated in tenten's video.)
TLDR: substats will be what separates the builds in the end with a whole setup and not in this 3 3 vs 4 1 scenario.
Do what u will with this info 👍
TenTen still cooked
Claiming he's doing misinformation and then your math is wrong is crazy anyway. You should do the video again with the correct math, not all of your viewers will see the pinned comment.
@@mauronoacontaldomurgia8476 That's super valid. Though it is a tiny part of the video cuz it's not how it actually goes in game, I am still sadge. I just used the type of math he used to prove a point, but to be even more accurate, I should've included the flat atk
Though I normally would redo the video, there are already so many comments that I don't want to delete and essentially will have wasted their time. I hope u understand
@@yun3_ That dude's a troll. Your pinned comment is literally RIGHT there the minute you scroll down, also the mistake you made doesn't change the overall point of the vid that TenTen is heavily underestimating 44111
@@KuroTheDesigner what the dude is saying is correct and some ppl can def miss this pin. though “wrong” is subjective cuz if using tenten’s scenario, it is right. but if going a bit further and including another factor, flat atk, then now the info would be wrong.
but u are right how itwouldnt change the overall premise of the underestimation, especially with the bad faith arguments that were presented, but still ;-;
tldr:
If you want optimization DMG wise: 90% use 43311 - unless you are using Jinhsi with her Signature, in which 44111 and 43311 is relatively the same.
If you value your sanity and your time: 44111 help. ALOT. Just not all elements have the luxury to go 44111.
These so-called Theory-crafting Content Creators are always has a biased view just to stir Drama and draw views.
Yeah, its just balancing useful stats and going for a valuable spread before additive multipliers get too saturated in one stat
Thanks a lot for the TLDR
It really it 50/50 imo and just depends on substats. my next vid will test it cuz i got the right echoes , but currently, my 44111 build with equal substats for calcahro beats my 43311
honestly I only went with 44111 because I don't want to spend a month farming the perfect 3 star echoes
just off of events and tacet fields though, whenever I need 3 cost echoes for new characters i get (spectro, fusion) I already have tons of it without actually farming for it so, somehow I don't really have to go thru months of farming. I did with Yinlin but it was more like a week
@@kentmarquez4929
U were just lucky
Same that and or getting hoe by RNG my Yinlin has 102% cc and I will live with it and stay that way 😢
This is acceptable.
self proclaimed "smart man" is doing "simple calculus" by circling numbers and drawing crooked cubes, but for tenten to show a graph comparing the builds without substats is not very fair, couldve done a comparison of builds at different investment levels.
I know some people care about the 5-10% dmg difference between 43311-44111 variation but in the grand scheme of thing it isn't a big deal
Right now everyone is only aiming for the good enough echo set that will surely get replaced later as we get more resources and then aim to get closer to the perfect echo substat so getting the sub opitimal echo variant rn is whatever either way.
Most people are just trying to share what they think is best during the 1.0 when we don't have enough data or character
Yet a lot of people are too emotional about it geez, it's just a game bro
@@zeromailss so i didnt know the full context of the whole debate of 43311 and 44111 as apparently gacha smack and ten ten have their vid on this topic. I think gacha smack had a really good take on this topic, but tenten came in with his bad faith arguments as i noted in the video. while smack was recommending 44111 from his experience and giving his reasons to use such as accessibility. ten ten was literally saying do not use 44111 regardless of any reasons cuz it sucks, which not only is wrong, it can hurt newer players
at this point I have more matching element lvl 3 echoes than lvl 1 attack echoes so 4111 is not an option for me hahaha
That's some pretty nice luck. I'm sitting on so much 4,3(matching element/atk), and 1 cost echos for anything not havoc and lightning.
@@yun3_day 1 player, I don't farm Echoes in Overworld but I have at least 3-4 proper Dmg bonus pieces per set But I still didn't get the RJ glow Healing bonus 4 piece for verina lol.
@@Arashish17 i told another viewer this but like i totally forgot that the turtle and heron(maybe) are in 2 sets. but yah a healing bonus on that set is just as difficult as getting a 3 cost with the right element (slightly easier cuz 2 vs 4 pity)
@@yun3_ The turtle has 2 sets! (RJ and Moonlit) but the heron only has 1 (Moonlit). I know this bc I'm still trying to get a 5* crit moonlit turtle to replace the 4* one I've been stuck with lol
44111 is easy power for early build.
43311 is how you push the ceiling.
Both approaches are valid.
I personally believe 43311 and 44111 are equally viable early build
and 43311 will edge out in the mid game with just descent echoes
and 44111 will win when you get 2x crit on everything
I'll test this theory out for end game cuz i got the echoes to test, so ig this will be revealed in my next video :) not a shameless plug ;)
@@yun3_ 3 3 garuantees you get from story and illusuary realm is what allows 43311 to be good early. 43311 full atk main stat is also powerful until mid game on high base atk characters.
My Hrover was running 44111 until this last IRealm with single crit role on 3 3 each was instantly better.
So while that's true, that event is like once every month and a half. U can't reliably gear ur team like that. U can farm 4 cost echoes instantly and for as long as u want. It's not too hard to do. My lvl 80 calcharo with 2x crit on all 44111 math was better than my 43311 assuming both had the same crit ish. I must test now im at lvl 90 but will make the results puiblic none the less once i finish my vid
@@yun3_ yes, I could farm Inferno Rider and Dreamless, but rng is rng.
87 IR to get a crit main stat echo is still bad. 132 crownless/dreamless for crit main stat. Only my Yinlin got lucky with 8 mephis kills for her crit piece.
Also both changli and yinlin have their elemental dmg 3 costs from ow echoes. Rng will be Rng.
@@FutayuriShironekojesus christ tf. like normal rng for me like every 3 will be a crit from my experience against bosses. rng will be rng
Getting The Echoes Is Not A Huge Deal If Everything Ends There...
Getting good S.Stat like crit rate/dmg is the real pain.
& What Makes Them More Annoying Is They Drop As A Low Rolls Like
( 6.9%crit Rate/ 13% Crit Dmg) Almost All The Time
They Should Really Add A Reroll Mechanism, Be It Costful Or Grindy... At Least It'll Be Less Annoying
@@finalavanger6803 having rolled so many echoes. high cr like 10 has to be freaking propaganda i stg lol. it always is 7.5 for me
Tenten has never been a real theorycrafter and has always been putting out shit takes and bad info since his genshin days.
i never seen his content until i was doing research for my video, so i can’t really say anything to that
@@yun3_ I used to watch him in the first couple years of genshin before I knew better. Presenting his own bad takes as the objective way to play the game is all he does. He doesn't do any math himself and he used to just yoink info from CN and kegingmains without context to support his bad faith arguments.
again, i dont know exactly how he does his content or his research tbh. i just know for this video in particular, it was def aimed at newer players as the game was recently released iirc. so telling newer players that “advice” or having newer players nowadays look on yt for advice and stumbling on that video, it did not sit right with me
Yeah the fact that he never or rarely shows any actual calcs makes him very sus. Stopped following him due to that
@@jadedeleon156BC he refers to Chinese theory crafters calculations.
Okay, i subbed right at the 14:28 mark. I love the little details you did with the meme 😂
had a lil headache. thank god for verina 😭
Oh yeah for Yinlin build should I put the lingering tunes or the electro one?
most likely 5 pc electro cuz assuming yinlin is going to be off field, lingering tunes won’t work too well
Only 10 mins into the video but using 44111 on Changli prevents the molten rift effect 5 set bonus since inferno rider doesnt work with 2 of him. Is it not a issue losing out on this? This will be fixed if we ever get another molten rift 4 star prayge.
yah we can only 44111 on 3 sets rn ;-; so don't use it for changli cuz the 5 piece bonus is pretty important. hopefully a nice molten 4 cost will come one day for her :)
Tbh 3 cost of Echoes is worth it, as Particular Dmg bonuses are hard to obtain, so you are better with Elemental Dmg bonus which applies to all type of Attacks. And we had 2 echo bonus events and the echo pack we get, can be used to get proper dmg bonus 3 cost echo every patch. Plus, you can get 60% cr very easily and If you have Signature weapon, its better to build 43311. We need only 1 good set for particular element which can be also used in future characters and can be transferred to other character in ToA.
can’t deny that. though i must say farming 4 costs will take much less time than waiting for the illusory realm and events. the issue comes with the rolling, if you get shafted which ik most do, then you will hsve to wait a long time or echo/tacit field farm (which the rng of it dropping again sucks).
signatures while giving lot of crit also give lots of dmg bonuses too (40-60%iirc) to we gotta keep that in mind :)
if u get a good 44111 u can also switch it around if you so wished 👍
@@yun3_ If you are a grinder, you will have many 3* proper DMG bonus echoes and even if ur not grinder, we only need like 3 DPS characters decently build to clear most of the content in the game and it's not hard to get them from echo selector and Echo events, players will probably have 2-3 DMG bonuses set of they followed every event and redeemed stuff properly. 4 cost echo is not so easy to roll too, as a particular character who needs resonance DMG more will make other DMG bonuses insignificant and we got like 4-5 attack type DMG bonus in a echo sub stat so it makes it even harder to get a worthy one. While in 3 cost echoes you better off with 1 cr or cd roll. It is recommended to get a 5* weapon of each type with crit main stat and it's not that hard with 2 5* crit weapons in standard banner and by managing pulls we can make that happen.
I will say, i actually have to disagree with having a descent bit of proper(2x crit or 4-5 usefull substats imo) 3 costs. So i only have calcharo and havoc rover as my dps. As such, I ROLL EVERYTHING related to those. even farming their respective tacit fields and overworld farming, i have gone though A LOT of em, and only have a "few(3-4 each set) usable (2x crit) 3 cost echoes. i do have and EXCESS of other elemental on set 3 costs rn tho, but ik how fast i can burn through em. So while it may not be hard to get them sometimes/ event, getting a good one is a different story imo.
Due to how dmg works in this game czcams.com/video/_ArGoUD30EE/video.html she talks about how u actually would prefer atk% and flat atk over dmg% for the substats (usually, and not always depending on the character). Dmg% also is usually given in the weapon and 5 set echo :)
@@yun3_I meant to say, proper means 3cost belonging to proper set and having 3 substats useful, getting 2 crit + proper DMG bonus on a set is very rare, you don't need to farm tacet fields, bc lvling 3 dps characters to lvl 90 and their imp talents to lvl 10 is more imp than min-maxing echoes in early stage which we eventually get as game progresses. I heard Lvl 90 char talent 10 lvl 90 weapon combined gives around 30%-40% DMG boost over lvl 80 which makes it more imp than farming tacet fields. We can min max crit as the game progresses it's only in the early stage, as some will have crit stats 5* weapons which can be used on multiple characters that can be obtained easier than rolling 2 crits + proper attack bonus. As echo upgrading resources are rare and farming tacet won't give much (2-3 gold +3 purple tubes), don't commit fully in early game, it's better to save ur condensed wave plates and daily farm for character and weapon lvling up materials which surely gives more advantage over tacet field farming.
@@Arashish17 kk gotchu :) After i get the talents up, right back to the fields for me lol
Everybody just don't know 11111 and 444 is the best.
u forgot the 3333. smh ;)
Am f2p i used 44111 and 43311 in same time and i got 29 stars with 80 lvl characters and i have only two main dps so i think you can do whatever you want have fun and do your thing
agreed. both are really good and just depends on substats and ur character. just use whichever good echo comes to you first :)
I just want to share my opinion on this.
Tenten's video was made during 1.0, at that time there is no char like jinhsi or changli which have very overstacked dmg% on resonance skill. ACTUALLY for Jinhsi as I'm maining her myself, double element is the WORST possible setup as long as you have the signature weapon (i.e. S0R1). Doesn't matter if you only care about Damage Per Screenshot, nor Average Damage. If you are considering to use CR Jue (80-90+ CR), then 44111 with CR CD ATK ATK ATK has the highest crit hit damage AND the highest average damage. However if you want to use CD Jue (probably around 60-70+ CR), then 433 with CD Ele Atk comes the best with only a VERY SMALL MARGIN compared to 441 with CD CD Atk (even this is due to the reason the CD surpassed 300% which I assume the marginal loss is due to diminishing return, too much CD).
I agree with you that most of this math scientist in Wuwa most likely come from Genshin, me personally as well. However you can not clearly copy what's happening in genshin to wuwa, wuwa has no bennet, no char that gives you a fkin 1300-1400 flat atk that will IMMEDIATELY makes ATK/ATK% less impactful than crit. Considering this fact, ATK% and flat atk actually is a good substat here, way more impactful than in Genshin. However, wuwa does have a TON of DMG%, for example let's talk see a regular carry like Calcharo, if you are using 433 double electro and a full 5piece void thunder set, at least you already have 100% Electro dmg bonus, which genshin can't have pre-kazuha. I found by playing on some calcs that dmg% actually has lower upper line before hitting the "diminishing return" area (in my case, it's around 150ish%). So yeah, actually having atk%, is way better here than in genshin.
Lastly the thing is, it's funny that people only care about the Crit Hit Damage, people tend to forget that most of the time, 441 have higher crit rate, leads to higher dps. Unless 433 beats 441 in both crit hit damage AND average damage, then I see no justification saying 433 is ABSOLUTELY better than 441.
so yes, during 1.0 there was changli or jinshi, but the math would ofc still stand the same as now. and simply put, it was just wrong. another comment put it best he would “present his own bad takes as the objective way to play the game”. “dont use 44111 cuz its trash”. trying to enforce the way u play the game aint cool. and its super not cool if what ur imposing is literally wrong
my previous video was abt how atk rly good as it can even compare with crit. (comparing weapons and 4 cost echoes) i didnt compare atk% to dmg% in this game as ive already seen from many cc that they are VERY VERY comparable. even from my own experience, switching a 3 cost lightning to atk on calcharo resulting IIRC like a .5% dmg loss at lvl 80. at lvl 90, this may go into atk% cost favor
from my intial testing, 43311 will hit harder than 44111 in both crit and non crit scenarios. but due to the rly high cr, it actually becomes neck and neck. with my personal build actually performing better with 44111
Lmao but that's not the original argument, whether we already have Changli or not. The original argument came from Gacha Smack and he's saying to farm 44111 because it's EASIER. E-A-S-I-E-R. Not stronger. EASIER. But math freaks like Tenten can't help himself but to respond and show off his math prowess while completely missing the point. EASIER =/= STRONGER.
TLDR
Gacha Smack: I'm making this video to say farm for 44111 if you value your time because it's easier.
Tenten: LOL LMAO ROFL You're wrong according to my math because 43311 is stronger.
You guys are clowns if you keep defending Tenten at this point. "He made his video back in 1.0" lolwut as if that changes anything.
@@justcrap3703 look mate I'm not even defending him at any point. My point is people so sensitive about this issue due to no char with heavy stacked built-in dmg% like changli and jinhsi. In fact in current state of the game 441 is actually competitive or even better in some scenario. I myself use 441 not because it is easier, but actually better too.
I remember seeing tenten's community post where he is saying that 441 is not any different from cos3 because he claim that we NEED to spend waveplate if we farm cos4, in fact, it's not, I'm pretty sure during that video released, he probably doesn't know that we dont need to spend waveplate if camp farming for cos4.
@@justcrap3703 Byon def had a good point and was just sharing his opinion, not really defending tenten. I agree with what they're saying just and just shared my pov on why I personally didn't believe time frame mattered too much
@@ByonLe7 With my personal findings, It seems that even if you do have don't really have inherit dmg% in ur kit or weapon, 44111 can be fairly competitive if you have godly substats on all ur echoes. But if you did have a weapon that gave lots of dmg% or in ur kit, it only takes a decent build for 44111 and 43311 to be comparable :) 44111 is only rly good if you have a rly good build.
gotchu on the second part. Ive never seen his community posts so I didnt know. But even with this, just playing the game, how do u make that oversight yk, that it costs waveplates to farm 4 costs? it just takes 1 boss kill to realize it doesnt no?
But to be honest I didn’t watched that video and it confused me so much that I didn’t really understand what he’s saying so I simply ignored all of it.
u should watch it. i mean i had to for this vid. it's only fair ;-; czcams.com/video/jYPg1Es7Weo/video.html
@@yun3_ Wops meant to say that I watched it but don’t get what his arguments are. Well thanks for clarifying and correcting it.
ah ok. I honestly had to have added at least 40 mins of watch time for his video cuz his arguments and reasonings were so difficult to interpret and honestly just didn't make sense
@@darkangel999
Focus & you'll do
After several groups came up with calculator UI that allow you to input stats and the like, I mess around with a couple of them (wutheringtools was the first one I tried)
Well, some optimization on the calculator is still needed, but turns out I was also under the assumption that 43311 is end all be all, and that substat does not matter.
Totally wrong. Substat matters, and it is actually the thing that push two sets very close to each other, to the point that 44111 can come out higher if your character has leviathan level of investment. I tried the calculator with Jinhsi and Jiyan, all skill max, all inherents, lv90 char and sig weapons, all echoes at 25 but only tune the minimum double crit, no outro buff or buffs. Result shows that at the base line, 43311 do give out higher maximum damage under reasonable crit chance (around 69-72%, not factoring character's sequence buff as calculated using S0). However, the average damage of 43311 is almost equal if not less than 44111 due to 44111 has insane crit chance (90-95+).
What does this mean? If you have higher investments of sequence (for example, Jiyan S3 that gives crit chance and damage) you can even go 44111 Crit dam, Crit dam once Aero has two choices of Cost4 and make your crit dam skyrockets. While using the advantage of easier to farm echoes to fish out a couple of DMG type bonus to balancing things out.
43311 starts to feel like a beginner's investment instead of best in slot, isn't it?
honestly I think it's debatable in the beginner set between the two, so both have their upsides. I feel 43311 wins slightly win mid investment while 44111 would win with endgame builds due to getting more crit stats. cuz god does missing crit sucks when ur hit is either 30k or 100k
@@yun3_ Agree wholeheartly. Reason for my last sentence above is that with sheer amount of Maldable Echo we receive from Illusive realms and event that we can select cost3 main stats, we absolutely have the minimum entry for 43311 without tuning for everyone. However, since substats is really major, we cannot always rely on limited amount of cost3 correct main stats to go through. Plus, factoting in weapon that does not have crit rate, and you really need tp ensure that you roll enough crit to keep the rate consistent and even out the average damage.
Crit fishing is fine, but boy isn't it frustrating to have to restart a good run due to missing crit.
100%. crit damage ascension honestly is so bad in this game, cuz even with 5x crit with cr weapon and cdmg echo, ur sitting at 65-70 crit. 44111 is just so much more consistent
@@yun3_ What actually is the deal breaker for both 44111 and 43311 is substat. I am doing some calculations to plan whether I should roll Zhezhi's weapon or not.
I am complete flabbergasted. Despite not having 44111 options for Glacio, but if you have Stringmaster maxed out, and roll at least min roll double crit and atk on all echo piece (If you get more than min roll on one piece, some other can even not have any roll), You can actually do more average damage throughout her kit with Yinlin's stringmaster than her own signature weapon due to crit consistency.
Here is the fun part. If you use Zhezhi on 44111 set moonlit, you can even go 44111 double crit dmg and still do more damage than her signature. All these shenanigans are possible all due to substats.
TL;DR tressure your double crit echoes with care, even if they have 2 dead stats and min roll. They make all the differences.
@@HeliumHe I assume you'll be comparing to abyss surges. Though I don't fully know the math, I assume it'll be 8% off. i hope u dont mind letting us know ur results here :)
A lot of times, I find that doing research myself or looking more at PLAYER guide, with social ( discord and all ) or on a wiki looking at stat directly is oftenly better. I don't know why but lot of ytb aren't good at guide for gacha games. I'm not saying there isn't any good ytb, ur Jiaoqu video are great examples of how player too can be quite wrong and even for such other games ( as genshin ) I did find some great ytb for them.
Finding good guides, between ytb or player are like 50/50 on a banner sometimes, u can't win it everytimes
i don’t watch guides too much so dont know exactly the quality/accuracy of the stuff out there. but yah definitely, it can be 50/50. love mr iwintolose tho
@@yun3_ Iwintolose is great lol, all of his guide on new charact are stuff with memes so it makes the vids quite cool to watch netherless their times
the info and math he provides is rly nice, especially paired his jokes + clean editing.
when i see damage test videos of 2 sets, in a realistic rolls or senarios there's like 10(best senario)-20(worst case of bad rolls) percent damage difference, and you can definetly clear tower with 44111, it all depends on rolls
from my personal experience, its more like 0-5%.
@@yun3_ yeah there's a lot of variables on rolls, guess anything is possible with good rolls
Think in some cases like Jinshi with signature weapon she gets so many dmg bonuses when full stacked that you can throw away the 33 and keep 44 for real
You will be comfortably sitting at 100% ish with her weapon so it def is close
yune, please dont self glazemaxx, flashing your self proclaimed "godly" build 3 times and flexing the yae build ;-;
my hand slipped ok
The whole 'deminishing returns' thing irks me beyond belief. It prevents the community from actually understanding that damage is gained the most efficient way by either introducing a new damage bucket, or increasing your existing damage buckets to achieve the most balanced outcome possible.
That is to say:
4+4+4 = 6+4+2 = 12 total statpoints
However:
4×4×4 is always the way to devide said stat points to get the highest product when you have 3 buckets.
There is no other way possible other than adding a new damage bucket: 3×3×3×3.
That's it, thats all you need to know about character building.
Saying build attack until deminishing returns, then crit, is wild, because the returns are comparatively deminished by you IGNORING A WHOLE NEW DAMAGE BUCKET.
i also wish ppl said opportunity cost rather than using diminishing returns but whatever
I think a part most don't talk about is it also depends on the kit of the character. If the character has one big nuke then the 44111 is better.
yah, u sacrifice a bit of dmg for much more consistency
Hmm I dunno. 10-12 mins into the vid and the points you were trying to argue still don't click. You seem to say yeah, 41 with god substats are slightly better than dookie 33. Like, what you seem to say does not differ much to what tenten says, but you are picking apart his words rather than the message.
Disclaimer, I am not in tenten's camp. I actually dislike several of his takes in the other game. And I think his explaination in the 43311 vid was rather bad if not condescending.
The reason I'd generally go for 43311 is that it was only possible in 2 sets (now 3 sets). Second, the cost to level echoes was astronomical, it's improved a bit now. But trying to get the 44111 with good substats, and then planning to transition into 43311 with good substats later is more work and resources, to me. Unless 44111 is more optimal for the character and I plan to stick with it.
Also, like the other commenter here. If you only do tacet fields and not go around hunting echoes, you might have a lot more 3-cost and less 1-cost than you think.
That's a fair point. My point for the vid is that 44111 is not bad and most certainly comparable to 43311. The issue I had with tenten's vid was the way he tried to justify 43311 being better. If had simply proved it using math, whatever, thats fine. But his reasons were so flawed and biased. Ex. Bc 3 3 will beat 4 1 generally when in a VACCUM. that means 33 > 41 in all scenarios.
I personally dont see the point in transitioning purposefully imo as from my own tests, both sets are comparable. But for those who do, 44111 will be a few % behind 43311 but gains a significant amount of consistency due to high cr. So if people really need that 5% dmg increase or want that high consistency sitting at 90 cr, thats fine. I just think that new pieces come and u should use whichever comes to u first.
I gotchu. From my personal experience, while lots of 3 cost echo do drop from the tacit fields, they generally are in the wrong set/element. So even with less 1 drops drops, bc there is slighly higher odds of getting an (atk) 1 cost, cuz less mainstats to fight for , i think it has been pretty even for me :)
Me with 44111 jinshi (she nukes everything)
I like your voice so much it's so nice and soothing to hear.❤❤😊😊😍💖
tyty :) though i must say i bet i sound pretty bad some parts in this video when i was dying inside lol
some 4-cost echoes share two sets. bell turtle (regen and heal) and robot (atk and lightning).
i def the bell after the video from my friend and other comments, but totally forgot that the mech existed ngl
The video credibility dropped with "tenten" on the title
🥲
I feel like for the calculations around 5:00, you shouldn't just use the pity numbers, but more so average 20% drops WITH the pity drop. Since the actual droprate will always be higher than just the pity droprate, since the Echo can drop before that.
So for example:
The actual general droprate for 4-costs would be ~55.55%, and the actual general droprate for 3-costs would be ~33.88%.
Also, the additional 1-cost should also be taken into account, since 1-costs can also be quiete hard to get when needing a lot of them, especially when they all have to be diffetent ones, for the set to work.
oh gotchu. i didn’t really consider the 20% and just used the hard pity rate. i dont know how one would calculate the actual drop rate including that 20% but will take ur word for it.
i didnt include the 1 costs for the same reason i didnt include the other 4 or 3 cost. though a better comparison would’ve taken account all 5 different echo slots and then see the% then.
@@yun3_ Easiest way to calculate something that has a pity is honestly just by using a program to simulate that.
The same way you can also calculate that on average, you have a 66.66% chance of getting a limited 5-star character, over a standard 5-star
Ah yes, Tenten, not surprised.
The reason he quit Genshin was because people often call him out on how bad his "theory crafting" are. Just go back to his "Raiden bad" video, Raiden turns out to be the best character in the game. Or the "Rosaria better than Shenhe".
Most of his "theory crafting" is more of a "feeling crafting". Basically saying what he thinks without data to back it up.
If he were to say like I "think" x,y, or z. like whatever yk. Like I think this combos is the best, or I think this set is the best for me. cuz thats an opinion yk. but when you start putting these opinions and instead startting saying i "know", making them look like facts -_-
It's still a viable and easier to build 44111 while you're still farming for the BiS.
If not for people pushing min-maxing to get the best stats,44111 couldn't have been bashed too hard. it's a SIMPLE EASY BUILD to push through the game.
Jinhsi having the Attribute DMG (I assume ignores elemental resistance) and Changli's built in fusion dmg stacking with def pen passives makes them really easy to build with 44111 and won't have a problem malding min-maxing over the 3-costs that are harder to farm.
He honestly lost me when he said 44111 is not easy.
And yeah people should check out what the Math Gremlin is cooking on how the math is mathing for thegame
And I'm so surprised ppl were so apprehensive on 44111 even if it a few percent behind at most. And it also is so depend to character so to like generalize that u shouldnt even consider 44111...
I don't watch his content but from some of these comments, apparently he just takes info from CN theory crafters and doesnt actually do his math? idk, cannot confirm
Nah, it depends. I dislike farming. Getting 3* echoes just happens as you play the game and there's those 3* selector tickets too that come with elemental damage.
43311 is easier to build if your really casual.
😩those 3* selectors doesn't even come in a regular basis it's either on events,battle pass,side events and end-game content. Even if you farm tacet fields the 3 costs main stats still rolls over so many variations on the right stat and set,
1 cost echoes barely has 3 main stats.
And if we're taking about resources, 44111 straight out helps as a placeholder for casuals while they still doesn't have any 3 costs that has min-maxxed sub stats in it.
In the long run 43311 is a late game build but resources wise you'll spend more time building 3 costs than 1
Even a Jinhsi with her signature weapon can literally use 44111 even without the elemental dmg bonuses from 2 pcs of 3 cost echoes because of how much dmg her nuke does
@@zealgaming8161 oh thats very true. I personally dont mind literally just waiting 2 minutes as I just like watch a yt vid in the mean time. But ur right as they def can come naturally as u play. Tho I will say, when u are getting ascension materials, U also can get some drops if that counts lol
So, as a big dumdum, i don't understand what the actual difference between a 4/1 and a 3/3 is. Like, if you gave the same type of substats to them what actually makes the difference? Is it cause 4 can give crit while 3 gives element damage? I'm still lost cause all these math numbers go over my head.
np. so 4 1 can give either 22cr/44cdmg + 18% atk +150 flat atk vs 3 3 with 30%+30%= 60% dmg bonus + 200 flat atk
with 0 substats and looking at only the 2 echoes, 3 3 wins easily. the reason why this unfair is bc crit needs cr to function and then cdmg. so the scenerio favors the 3 3. But, if u have LITERALLY godly echoes for the 4 1 max (cr,cdmg,atk%, flat atk)substat, 4 1 will win.
Regardless, the entire point doesnt even matter ;-; bc its not what happens in game cuz u shouldnt be in a scenario where u only have a 4 1 or a 3 3 echo.
U should have 5pc echoes and substats. so while in a vacuum is true, in game it isnt. tldr, the vid i was critiquing was in super bad faith
Yune please save the wuwa theorycrafter society. Tenten is a fraud, Gacha smack is overemotional, rexlent doesnt do these type of guides, etc
Please save us
im no theory crafter but I can most certainly test stuff. My next vid will shed some light on the 44111 vs 43311 i hope
How good is going for 43311 with lower rarity 3 cost echoes (purple/blue) when youre poor? The substat amount rolled per turning is the same for all rarities: with substats making up quite a bit for your damage, and with tuners being easily available for lower costs (and lower rarity echoes costing lower to level up - purple cost 80% of gold per lv, blue 50% of purple per lv), are they worth using?
so 43311 and 44111 are generally around the same ish level, with 44111 doing better if you got the crit stuff. it just depends on substats when talking about the 5*. if you just don’t have the funds, using 4*/3* echoes is perfectly fine.
but i personally do not think people should plan on using the 4*/3* echoes for too long and ideally upgrade to a 5* one when possible. this is bc ur getting less on the mainstat, 2nd main stat, and also getting less rolls cuz 4* can only go to lvl 20 and 15 for blue iirc. hope that helps :)
43311 is pretty garbage with a signature weapon, since signature weapons love giving tons of buffs. To the point that more elemental damage from echoes is already a diminishing return. For example on Changli, it's technically better to go half element and half attack, than double element. Especially since her signature weapon has such a high base attack. Just unfortunate that fusion doesn't have a 2nd 4slot. Heck, both Jinhsi and Changli has element on their kit.
We def are generally pretty saturated with dmg bonus from our weapons, kit, and potentially echoes too with the 3 cost and set bonus. ATK as such is rly dang gud. which i mentioned in another vid, but thx for pointing this out;)
I'll do you one further and not only Changli, but majority of 5 stars will enjoy Atk/Elemental more if you decide to go 43311 and once you roll your echoes. The average damage difference is very minuscule, some have one above the other, but the ease of farming for base echo is very very huge.
@@HeliumHe I do have a question. Due to Changli's super high base atk, and knowing what I know on how calcharo( who has less base atk) performs just as well with a 4 cost atk echo as a 4 cost crit. This only moves to 2-3% less once u add buffs like verina/rejuv.
would changli actually do more dmg using an attack 4 cost if u run dmg%/atk% 3 costs?
@@yun3_ I'm on it. Same as usual, assume double crit on all echoes, no buff, everything max, S0R1 Blazing Brillance:
(Lib/Forte)
Crit rate 4 cost: 58,074 / 44,484 (Crit 66.5/261)
Atk 4 cost: 55,232 / 41,758 (Crit 44.5/261.5)
Crit dmg 4 cost: 53,603 / 41,059 (Crit 44.5/305)
Crit rate wins here due to average hit as it has more crit rate, but fishing for crit would make Atk do more. As for max damage when crit:
Crit rate 4 cost: 73,228 / 56,091 (Crit 66.5/261)
Atk 4 cost: 84,047 / 64,544 (Crit 44.5/261.5)
Crit dmg 4 cost: 85,544 / 65,525 (Crit 44.5/305)
wow ty for the math. u dont need to do thr math again, but assuming u did have 2x crit everything and atk% everything, (regardless the roll value, i personally used the avg of 8.1cr 16.2 cdmg and 8.6atk iirc), how do u think the results would change?
The math calculation kind of misses the argument, but not that important since it doesn't give the full picture.
The general argument made when making 433 vs 441, the 1st 4 cost is using crit rate main stats. So automatically the 2nd 4 is c.dmg. So the accurate representation is 60% dmg bonus vs 44 c.dmg + atk%. Not 22% c.r.
i would have to disagree as they are interchangeable in this particular scenario. ex. if using a cr weapon, the first assumed 4cost would actually be cdmg. it just depends :)
@@yun3_ Personally, I would use double crt dmg 4 cost in such scenario. There's also difference of value in calculation. When you pick c.r instead of c.dmg, it definitely help your case more. But yeah, it's not 5 piece equipment and won't give us actual result.
yep 100%. the issue is, if u go to the chart with all the lines of the stat gain. we can see how crit doesnt gain much till it gets more. even without the chart, even with a 400cdmg, with a 5cr. ;-; not it
my next video will test with all 5 pieces :)
I went 44111 on all characters without crit weapons. I don't want to waste my time grinding double crit rolls as f2p for 43311. 43311 is not worth grinding so early into game when echo xp is hard to get.
being lvl 60, I prefer 44111. Missing crit simply just sucks. with 43311, even with 2x crit everything and a crit weapon, ur only getting 60-75cr. Missing ur HVC rover ult going from 110k to 30k hurts my soul. especially when it's like 3 times in a row against the simulations. and what's the tradeoff? losing 0-5%dmg...
Great work 👏🏻🔥
tyty :)
Tenten and TC in one sentence spells disaster.
I heard that 44111 is an easy investment since every 4 cost enemy are infinite and only locked behind 2 minute mark after being defeated...
And no, it can give you similar benefits as 43311 but not strong as the latter set...
yep I will say the first statement is true. U can literally farm all day.
the second one honestly depends on ur character and weapon, but 44111 is generally a few percent within 43311, and sometimes outclassing it. If ur curious, my next vid will test it in game :)
@@yun3_ I wanted to make a choice if I want Xiangli Yao to be 44111 or 43311, honestly I might want 44111 since he'll be my 2nd DPS and I've been tired on trying to kill more and more echo until they went extinct that I had to stop lol
@@Riley_MDS I personally have just been farming for 4 costs even though I already have a good 43311 set up ( cuz i like 44111/more consistent). After using calcharo, I must saying even with a rly gud build, missing a crit fukin sucks with a 43311
@@yun3_ you're not wrong with that, I might give Xiangli Yao a try with 44111 build since this elemental has two 4 cost echo...
i def would recommend seeing how xiangli yao has a 1500% ult multi, similar to havoc rover ult iirc. my personal experience with rover (fuk u game, why no s6 gimmie that 25 cr), having my 110k nuke go to 30k ☺️🔫
Great video, Maygi also debunk him before. People should stop watching tenten for theorycrafting he fell off, now he just stealing content from cn
TY :) I don't know this guy too well. But like does he actually do theory crafting? and do ppl actually watch him for that? After having watched another vid by him, the fact he was comparing 44111 to 4311 is like ;-;
He doesnt? He is spreading CN stuff same thing as Pokke.
@@distritochristianangeloa.157 oh ok. I will say this video and his next video regarding comparing the "secret build" and 44111 definitely do NOT look like he got it from CN as it seemed to only be personal testing/anecdote
Yeah but are you going to be satisfied with Crit rate, crit dmg and atk% substat on your echo or will you farm more to get that relevant % dmg bonus as well? You can do that but don't go complain about being poor in terms of echo EXP.
i personally keep it as long as get either 2x crit with 3 usable stats or maybe 1x crit with 5 nice stats. I already have 2x crit on my characters with other nice stuff, but will ofc just take what i can get.
according to maygi, due to dmg% being fairly saturated in a 43311( iirc, pls correct if im wrong), even flat atk would perform better than dmg% in most cases
Nah Atk and damage bonus has to be better value than Crit that’s why everyone loves to play Atk% weapons and prays to get Atk% and flat Atk bevor they even think about Crit 😂.
I think he just forgot to switch back from Verina to his Main Dps bevor recording that Video 🤔.
Maybe we got 2 3 cost damage bonus echos and then 2 3 cost attack echos to maximize the damage first lol
@@yun3_ true why do we even farm 4 costs if Crit stats are that value less xD
who knows. I think dmg% gotta be op tho right?
idk if your next video will have this or not. But i think it would be great if you have it.
I already have 44331 the substats isn't really amazing but just okayish (like have 2 from atk, crit, er). Should i change it to 44111? or just keep that? Like the consideration to swap or not if i already use it.
i didn't watch any guide before, but it feels more natural to fill all echo cost slot (12 cost).
@@assault4537 hello :) so my in game tests cannot do this as i can only work with my echoes. But I 100% can with the sheet math in the second part of my vid. My previous vid did it too so u can go there to see how i did it.
but basically, the scenario has
builds with 2x crit 1 atk% and switch out weapons and see which won.
and another where it was a total of 3 cr, 2 cdmg(half the crit rolls) and 2 atk% rolls. i will do the same thing again
so while filling out all 12 will seem more right, though i only have my word, i will say my 44111 43311 are very very similar and will 100% come down to substats. so my advice is if u do have a godly 3 cost echo, maybe aim for the 43311. but if i dont, i believe 44111 will be just fine. so which ever build comes to u, use it.
hope that helps :)
@@yun3_ thanks
the bennet bullshit in Genshin still goes on nowadays, people think his C6 is bad because "insert bullshit" Bennet C6 was always an amazing constellation , people were just too stupid to realize it, OR wanted to be able to have the cake and eat it took. I know we're talking about wuwa but it was just an example with something people did and were totally wrong, like in this case with echo builds. And trust me, in a couple of years, people WILL still think 43311 its still the best because of that video they saw 434 years ago.
i honestly dont get how ppl disliked bennet c6. realistically speaking, it only really effected physical and certain characters with wonky infusions. so basically 99% of the player base wouldnt ever be affected negatively cuz they dont use physical. my bro does use eula and leaves his bennet at c5, based, though i always tell him to do pyro eula. but in so many other teams, pyro infusions is either a benefit and the dmg bonus too from it.
but hey who knows, maybe if my actual 44111 does gud enough, ppl’s perception will change 👍
@@yun3_ its stupid even if its just for eula EVERY pyro lose 15% damage Plus all the reactions you can do with pyro infused normal attacks, its just insane to think his C6 is bad, catalyst and bow users can't even be infused, so its realyl just for 2 characters in the whole game, and for those same characters there are better supports and team, even back in the days 1.2 etc.. Also if you know to play this game, AND use the pyro infused eula attack to melt her E she's gonna EASILY go over 100k with that only if you have her built well with her weapon. Its just stupid to not use his C6 PURELY for normal attacks that are maybe 10% of her total damage, cause we all know all eula damage comes from her burst, which cannot be infused anyway...
bro came out the woodwork to cook tenten LOL
nothing against the guy but that vid ruined my day
Maan, 3 costs are a Scam.
for tenten to say crit is an upcharge because you have to build both crit rate and crit damage and therefore it is twice as expensive is not valid, because in this game you start with 150 cdmg (50 in genshin terms) so early investments are crit rate hungry in this crit rate starved game, 44111 is absolutely the way to go for whales and high investment builds, but for casual players who dont care enough to roll for good subs and can skip farming by using selectors, 43311 would probably be the way to go.
yah def true. Honestly didn't catch that. just gotta get that CR up in the really beginning and get whatever u can afterwards. There def is value in both builds tho :) cuz screw missing crits
150 cdmg works the same as 50 cdmg in genshin, as in genshin we add ( 100+50+ cd)/100 multiplier whereas in wuwa we have (150+cd)/100 Multiplier in calculation
Blatantly wrong. We do not start with 150CD, massive misconception. We, just like genshin and HSR, start with 50cd in Wuwa. I don't know why they keep the 100 displayed but thats just saying when you crit you do the same damage, it's your baseline. Anything above that is what's actually amplifying your damage into a real crit. I do agree that you should prioritize crit rate in the early game but it's not because you have 150cd, it's because even 50cd is enough to do more damage.
@@Arashish17 50 in genshin terms, but glad you explained it for those who don’t already know
@@AmythstGuardian please don’t say blatantly wrong when you’re blatantly wrong yourself, I put 50 in genshin terms in parenthesis if you could read because I’m already aware of this. I also personally think the way wuwa labels it makes more sense as 150 cdmg would be a 1.5 times multiplier so it’s easier to understand for my kind.
I go 44111 for easy farm.
I dont care maximizing everything.
Because i already leveled up 100 echoes just to get hp/deff on 4th substat😂
i mean it's smart. after my next video, i can see which is better at 90 and high investment
next video don't bother with tenten or ben ben or hen hen just post a normal showcase of ur story and it would be 10 times better then all of this hearing him yapping pointlessly
my next video will be just like my atk video and just to the point. Will showcase the build + dmg numbers in game. and the second part using sheet math.
I just felt like this video had to be made cuz like i felt if not, the other vid could misinform ppl, especially newer players which i do not want
To be honest, if you have crit weapon, you can go 3+3+3+3+3 with crit roles, i try to build monk girl this way and, to be honest, her shield s#cks, but the dmg she does is sometimes bigger than jiyan's 😂
But yeah 4+4+1+1+1 is just kinda s#cks if you consider echo materials, the only way you can get them by farming tacet discords wich gives 3 point echoes, a lot, i could build 6 fusion characters now
Either way, chads go 4+4+4
Rate and rate and dmg
nah, real chads go 1 1 1 1 1. That hp u get from the 2nd stat will save u
I never took 44111 to practice. I just understand that my units work fine with atk percent as well as elemental percent. So I just use atk and maybe energy regen instead for a bit til I get slemental dam percent.
ive used atk 3 cost for calcharo for my and it's like .5% off from my dmg% one so i dont think u need to stress on getting a dmg% one. I will know for certain if 44111 is worth soon tho after I do my in game tests
Not considering the math and spreadsheet BS from 1010's video reply to GachaSmack's statement, his video makes no sense when GS's original video has "RIGHT NOW" in it's title. Take note that it was only 2 weeks after release. 44111 was meant to be an easy build especially for casuals who don't have an ungodly amount of time farming per day. GS didn't even claim anywhere in his video that 44111 was better than 43311, just easier. 1010 just blew it out of proportion with his "calculus". Lol
i have 0 idea on any early game wuwa stuff as i only started like 2 weeks after released and only watched any videos like 4-5 weeks later. so i dont really know what happened with GS and tenten, but he was so adamant that 44111 was trash. do u have any idea why?
@@yun3_ No idea. I guess he just wants to be seen as an expert "theorycrafter" in WuWa early on. Haha. But for more context I highly suggest you also watch GS's orig video about his 44111 take. Btw great work on your vid. Cheers!
@@jamesnieves1216 ty
All i can say is:
People just make videos.. even they know most of them is full of bullshit, but its for the views, not for the info..
Doing calculation on a game FULL of RNG is in itself an idiotic act.
In the first place what you need it luck, neither 44111 noir 43311 , because it all come down on what rolls you get.
Talking about "in theory bla bla bla" its all bullshit. a set 44111 with good rolls will always be better than a 43311 with shitty rolls, meaning its mostly "theory" and almost zero practice because the people actually had insane stats on BOTH builds and can check this are a % so small that its impossible to make a statistic.
In the end, play the fak you want or whatever rolls better stats xD
Just make it 4 4 4 :P
my 1 1 1 1 1 will wreck u ;P
too condescendant, plus it's good to remember he is simplifying
that's fair. I def was at some part I cant lie. The issue is not the fact he is simplifying. The issue is that the "simplification" is outright wrong in almost the entirety of the video. Again, being a bit wrong is fine as we all can mistakes. As another comment stated, he "Presents his own bad takes as the objective way to play the game", WHILE BEING WRONG. Trying to enforce a way to play the game already isn't cool. Now to do it with misinformation is super not cool
i always took his video as "43311 is better for casuals cuz i dont need to farm to get them in early" in which, i agree. but since apparently it's not. i'll just make this statement my own
i just play illusive realm and other events and ill have the elite elemental piece i need.
on the other hand, it took me around 20 times to get a healing bonus from the big turtle.
so even now and i like smack's vids, i'm still in the idea of 43311 is better for early especially for roaming the overworld
i still have 7 selectable elites. but i dont have a 1 cost ATK for moonlit clouds or a crit piece for lingering tunes ;-; (and i dont want to farm. i'd rather wait from the dailies rewards and tacet fields lol)
gotchu. i will say depending on how ur rolls go and particular situation, both 44111 and 43311 are equally viable early, mid, and late game imo.
i cannot lie, i just do not fully understand how ppl did their early game. me personally, bc i played genshin and hsr, ik what to do. had blue and purple echoes unleved basically to lvl 35/40. as soon as i got there spent ALL my wave plates 60 or so? regardless, i literally had endgame 2x crit in 3 days basically. though ik most ppl did not do that. as such, i dont understand why ppl would focus on “early 5* star echoes when u basically are at end game as soon as u hit lvl 40 imo”
also i forgot turtle existed which my friend later pointed out and yah no, farming that sucks. same for heron iirc?
i dont rly farm for 1 costs cuz i think u just get so many cuz they build up imo. unless ur rolling like all of then of a particular kinda (i have like 0 havoc & lightning 1 costs) and easily 20 of like each other element
@@yun3_ the thing is smack's and tenten's video was made where casual people are mostly around UL25-35. (i do think im at ul 40-45 already that time)
so i assumed that's what they meant by early.(my casual sister at ul 37 is running blue unleveled echoes lol)
and in that time, you can't even get 100% chance of gold. so the free gold 3 cost echoes are a huge boost to ease your missions and first kills of bosses
so even to this day, if new people ask me what they should build, ill straight up say go for 33 cuz it's free and max rarity.
idk about arguments and i dont want that but i might get attacked so in their 1st videos,
some people are saying "im running 4431" or "i dont have the time to farm"
so my focus is about how easy it is to get , the time frame or the common level/databanks of the player that time and who uses it.
common level ---25-45
easiness= 33 from the warzone type event and illusive realm + the daily quest login event forgot the event name which you have or need to do so no time wasted
users= people who dont want to farm/don't have time
so for 43311
you need to farm 4 11
for 44111
you need to farm for 44 111
@@frostice961 ah ok. I joined a bit late so had no idea they had videos regarding this topic till I was informed by another comment I responded to before this.
Those 3* selectors definitely helped as I also def utilized it.
My statement as I said a bit earlier was that I didnt even bother with echoes until I could get gold ones and/or when they were guaranteed. (I was basically naked)I thought that advice was for people hitting lvl 40 and starting to farm.
regardless, I do like gachasmack's take as it's just about accessibility. Again like what I said in the video, I still dislike tenten's take as he is refuting the accessibility of 44111 with the dmg of 43311
I personally believe that you should not care about ur build till u can get gold echoes/lvl 40. And when u do, farm whichever one is easier to as both are good
@@frostice961 Most ppl are generally chill in my comments so far. I have seen people get heated but thats fine imo as discussions/ (functional conflict) is good. If it gets really bad ex. racism sexism etc. Ill just delete the comments or just ban(hope i dont ever need to do)
I really appreciate ur input as I missed out on that time period u mentioned iirc. and going by what u said, ur def right :) though I must say in the future for new players who dont have this headstart(3 cost stuff) or the illusory realm is not out, I would say at that point, both are in the same boat, favoring 44111 as 44 would be easier to farm that the 3 cost 👍
who cares while i tune all these echoes, i get shitty substat
😑
gamble more
U should go 43311 if u have, the signature wp
some ppl actually mentioned its the other way around where u should perhaps consider either 44111 or 43311(with 1 atk 3 cost) as sig weapons have been giving 40-60% dmg bonus
443444111141133341 😵😵😵 i will just put what i get 😂😂, Just have fun 😅
based :)
Ama tell you now just run atk% main stat on everything for big number
I want that 5/150 3k atk build
his premises aren't premising.
could you explain? if i messed up anywhere, lmk and ill see what i can do
Why are u farming months old content that was true at the time but not at the current state of meta...
Because if I stumbled apon it while tryna do research, I have no doubt the newer players who dont know any better would too. regardless of when the time frame is, the information that is provided again is wrong. Besides the stuff that was actually wrong, getting the right answer using the wrong equation is still wrong
44111 is using 11 slots instead of 12, so from the get go you are wasting a slot. Secondly if you use another 4 to get 44 crit damage, the slot that you wasted can easily have an average of a 15 crit damage and 7 crit rate. Thirdly the 3 cost has 30% damage, that you will never get using 4+4
Your stats might "look" nice, but you will lose to much stats, its bad, its better to go 43311 and use an attack % 3 slot, but again wasting a Full slot 11 out 12 means you ARE losing stats using 44111
Pseudo intellectual bullshit
tenten viewer spotted
I think it's fair to think that 11 will be worse than 12 cuz it takes less slots. But in the end, that part doesnt actually matter and what does is how would 41 vs 33 actually compare in a real game situation
I would say that the same would apply to damage bonus as you can get quite a lot from substats alone. While what ur saying is true, i could say u will never get the extra 44 cdmg from the extra 4 piece. 5 piece set also gives an extra 30% so at the end of a build with all ur extra bonuses, excluding traces, it's actually pretty saturated. U dont need to take my word for it, and can watch the video by Maygi.
My next video will test this in game so u can tune in then :)
@@yun3_ I think it depends on unit, but dmg bonus from substats isn't good enough compared to crit in some scenario. If that unit damage is spread out evenly to basic, skill and ultimate, the value is simply less. For such units, imo it's best to aim for elemental dmg with crit substats because it's unconditionally affect all of their dmg.
When testing, I really hope you'll be doing not just basic attack or where it's high on dmg bonus for simplicity sake, but also where the dmg bonus lack for full context.
@@shiroeikami8467 good point.👍
The echoes I will be testing mostly only have 2x crit and maybe 1-2 dmg bonus stuff. I will have to limit this factor to be as fair and as such use the stat with 0 or as little to 0 dmg bonus. ty for bring this to my attention and I will keep this in mind
@yun3_ I told you that unused 1 slot in 44111, can roll one crit roll and one crit damage roll, so you are substituting 44 crit damage for an average of 15 crit damage and 7 crit rate "to clerify that 1 slot with double crit roll is 7x2 + 15 = 30 crit value vs 44 crit value" if you add the 25% attack and other stats, you are losing a lot, each slot can hold up to 6 stats the main plus the 5 sub stats, 44111 will give you 44 crit damage up front, but you will scam yourself out of 6 stats that you could have gotten from that unused slot, there is no where to get 30% damage bonus, the max roll you get on a liberation and skill bonus etc is 11%? That's is not comparable to thev30% you get, plus you still get the other damage bonuses with the 43311.
44111 is a short cut for "good looking stats" but you will be losing anywhere from 12 up to 15% damage. You can use it as a place holder set, but the end game set that gives you max damage for your characters is the 43311.
Btw if you are not getting sequences, you will need all the stat damage you could get, recommending 44111 is terrible advice, especially for f2p and low spenders, because they can't afford a damage deficit that big, this is why 44111 is only recommended for jinshi at S6, because she gets so much stats from her sequence, that 12~15% is nothing
not enough info test lol
Yes, that is my next video with actual tests and math. This one just had to be it's own thing ;-;
@@yun3_ good luck