Why I Stopped Using Garmin Metrics Like HRV And Training Readiness
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
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How reliable is Garmin?
Are Garmin metrics like Heart Rate Variability, Readiness Score, Stress Score, Sleep Score and their other scores really that reliable, and are they something you should use?
Should you use training readiness to dictate your training? Can garmin accurately measure your sleep? And is the Garmin Stress Score worth it?
In this video, I’ll delve into my potential concerns with these scores, and instead, how you should use them to help boost your training and performance.
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Hi! I'm James. I'm a Sport and Exercise Nutritionist and I make videos on nutrition to give people simple, clear and easy to use information on a range of subjects. I focus on triathlon and how triathletes can use nutrition to help properly fuel their training and racing.
In my day job I work as an Advanced Clinical Practitioner in General Practice, or Family Medicine for those of you not in the UK, and work in a busy NHS GP practice. I'm a Specialist Paramedic by background and have full independent medicine prescribing rights.
Advanced Clinical Practitioner in Family Medicine, BSc, PGCert
Registered Sport and Exercise Nutritionist (SENr)
MSc Sport and Exercise Nutrition
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I am not affiliated or sponsored by any brands, companies or products that I mentioned or show in my videos. My aim is to make these videos free from any sort of bias!
These videos shouldn't be taken as direct, personal advice on medicine or nutrition but more for information purposes based on the latest research and evidence. Unless otherwise clearly stated, this information is more suited to adults as under 18s have different requirements and considerations. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have as an individual though!
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People forget that garmin is not your coach, its your support device.
You can use it to guide you. And its pretty good estimation over longer period of time
Yep, would agree 🙂
Metrics are in line with how i feel for me. So i stick with them.
Glad to hear! 🙂
if so, then why bother wearing it and reading the data?
@@SirRasor because it is data. You can feel bad and you can judge what is wrong by data. Are you sleeping bad, working too hard, hrv is bad may be you are sick. And how are you performing, is performance getting better? You can feel fast or slow but you can also see how fast you are by data.
Can you get it?
Good video and i think you made the right decision for you. I will personally keep it.
1) it helped me so much imoroving my sleep.
2) almost stopped drinking and other unhealthy habits.
3) it helped me feel my body more. It sounds a bit unexpected, but i prefer charts and numbers to understand my feelings
4) i wouldn't be able to do zone 2 running without it and keep it slow enough
5) for me it is really hard to increase volume gradually and things like training load help a lot.
6) i don't really care that much about the metrics that i see. It is logging so i don't have to keep attention to it. If i want to understand some correlation later, i can return back
7) seeing the progress on some metrics is quite encouraging for me
8) when i see it go down, I know i have to make adjustments to lifestyle.
Really pleased to hear this - it sounds like you've used the details to review your own situation, which is exactly what I would encourage!
I don't know if I'm lucky or what but for me, my watch always reflects perfectly on how I feel during the given day. Not sure if it's because I always train with HR strap or if it's because I update my zones in weekly bases (and weight in every morning) but I find it extremely accurate.
Hell, even my VO2max is spot on to one that I do in a lab test on treadmill.
One thing I do agree with though - Training Readiness can be telling funky stuff if your HRV is off-balance (eg. you were sick and the 7 day average has not stabilized yet)
Same here the metrics are very much in line with how I feel.
Awesome! It sounds like it does work well for you then which is great to hear, especially if that means you can use the data well!
I generally feel that hrv indicates nicely how I feel, but I dont skip training cause of it
Then I guess my question is: why do you use it? 🙂
I see a pattern about higher hrv and increased fitness. Also might alter training if hrv goes way down.
I get what you're saying. It's just like weighing yourself everyday, can be useful for some people, but lead to eating disorders for others. I'm not emotionally attached to my Garmin data, but do track 24/7. I don't really pay much attention to 'training readiness', or my sleep score, for me HRV, stress and RHR are the most important. Those 3 metrics are what helped discover my thyroid disease, as they got out of control long before I started to have actual symptoms.
100agree. Tough stress could also be “wrong”, but the good old RHR is always a good metric and that reflects in HRV as well;)
Yeah totally. It sounds like you've found a good balance.
I found myself in the same boat. I used to wear my Garmin 24/7. However, I was finding that the sleep data was making me paranoid about my sleep quality. Also, if my HRV was low, it would almost set me up for a bad day. I still use my Garmin to track training, but don't wear at night. I prefer listening to my body.
Yep, sounds like the right approach to me then!
Nobody said Garmin is perfect, but keeping track of your health and fitness is somewhat important.
I guess it depends on what your goal is 🙂
My Garmin 955 is pretty much accurate for most of the metrics but I agree with you, overtime waking up and anxiously going through my morning report affected me more psychologically than it did physiogically. I've since ditched them for the last couple of weeks and I really feel much better every morning!
Makes such a difference hey? Glad to hear!
I’ve found that since I’ve moved up from less expensive to more expensive and complicated garmin watches, the best guide to my fitness, health and recovery is the rhr number.
Nice! If it works for you then that's perfect 🙂
I fond my 965 very good. The hrv and stress detection is very good. During a shift as train driver I can see on the stress when I drive a train more likely to have faults. Two times this year I have tried to do hard workouts when the body battery was almost 0 and ended up sick both times. I travel a lot in work and sleep in different hotels with different beds, heat and light conditions. The sleep quality varies a lot but every time I come home to my own dark bedroom with a good bed my sleep is always of the charts and stress very low. It detectes this very good.
I don’t always follow the training recommendations but if the hrv is down over a few days you better make adjustments. And also stress is very hard to pick up on yourself. That’s why people hit the wall because they didn’t realize it before it’s to late. It’s a very good tool if you use it right
Sounds like you've really benefitted from it and found it useful-glad to hear! As you might notice in the comments there are some really polarised views on this topic!
Interesting topic. I think in your case you were relying on the garmin info too much to the point you were trying to influence it.
For me personally i use it as a gauge, for instance if i ran poorly id look at the data and see if there was something off. Training rediness low or high stress throughout the day etc.
I think where i find garmin quite spot on is the peaking training status when it appears. Im always at my best so something must be accurate amongst all the data if it all lines up at a particular point.
If say i go on a bender my garmin 265 does seem to pick up that lack of sleep/hangover and takes a few days to return to normal. So seems good there as well.
I wouldn't say I was trying to influence it, more I was just very aware of it. And this comes from someone who actually uses some of these metrics with athletes that I work with. I guess it's just the way my brain is wired!
Good to hear your experiences with it!
After many years of following these metrics didn't lead to better running, I've been moving to training to PRE and paying attention to my HR on runs that week. It's made running more enjoyable.
Glad to hear - I like that approach!
I've known for a long time that Garmin metrics are a guess at best, as the scales tell me my BMI is going up and down directly correlated with weight, not muscle. The watch does the same, just best guesses based on inaccurate data. I believe the demonstrated metrics such as actual heart rate, weight, and time, but use everything else as a VERY rough guide.
“Body Mass Index” as a metric inherently works exactly how you described, regardless of what device you’re using. If your weight goes up, your BMI increases. If your muscle goes up, your BMI increases. It’s a flawed metric to keep track of, but it literally isn’t a “guess at best” lol. Same with HRV and RHR - those aren’t “guesses” or “inaccurate,” and they establish a really solid baseline understanding of health and daily wellness
Yeah, you're always going to get much more reliable data from measured rather than estimated readings!
I work in counseling psychology and these metrics make me think about psychology tests. We always take the raw data with a grain of salt and it is critical put them into context of the patient's situation and think about the biaises that might have effected the results.
Thank you for the video :)
My pleasure! You're right, it's context which is key here 🙂
I like the data as reference, but I just wish Garmin can produce additional devices, so I don't have to wear a ugly watch for 24/7
If you could choose a device for Garmin to create, what would it be?
There is also the question whether Garmin measuring Resting Heart Rate, while you are sleeping at night, is the right number, or whether it should be a number that is measured during a lull in daytime activity.
Absolutely!
If you want to measure your heart rate (cadence and other parameters such as power) quite accurately, you need to use external sensors, because the built-in optical heart rate monitor is rather inaccurate, especially during intense physical exercise.
Yep, definitely. My Forerunner 955 is OK - just nowhere near as good as my dedicated one.
Love this, James. There is so much value in listening to your body and learning what it's telling you. During workouts and in between.
Absolutely! It's not necessary easy to do but I think it's so beneficial.
I switched to Coros for my current marathon training block because of all of this, I do love Garmin but FOR ME all the data would dictate how I felt for my day too much, morning report, low HRV or Sleep Score, even if I felt good I would think, huh I will have a rough day or run etc...For some the data is probably great but it was influencing me too much.
Kinda crazy how much it can influence you, right? Hope the marathon training block is going well!
I just try to drive my TSB as low as possbile and my CTL as high as possible with a +3 to +5 ramp rate. Suunto user here.
Same here, the only Garmin metric I pay attention to is sleep. And I don’t use the recommendations, I budget at least 8 hours and like to see the different cycles of sleep the next morning.
Contradict yourself much?
@@johnsimoney2035 wtf are you talking about?
Personally, I have found it very unreliable for sleep!
Sorry but this video is all over the place. Firstly you can’t mix validity and reliability. These are two different criteria in science that mean totally different things. You are actually talking mostly about reliability. Then you are talking about is “guesswork”. Garmin actually correlates a whole lot of stuff with their watches. Meaning they have real data to back up their estimation. You can’t really evaluate how good their estimation is. Third is that you are rather describing personal insecurities that you might want to talk about with a psychologist.
My take on Garmin devices: They are accurate enough to determine stress and they can aid very well to manage stress and recovery. Take everything with a grain of salt. I even use them with clients in psychotherapy to mange their stress levels. They work fine for that purpose. If you are an aspiring athlete I would advise you to use even more data and try to aggregate it to get a clearer picture. Either use other devices or other apps to analyze your data. Thank you for reading my lengthy thoughts!
Hey, thanks for your input - always appreciate comments! I'm quite aware of the differences and I am talking about both of these things here. The main issue is that their estimations ARE estimations, and they are estimations based off estimated data. That is a huge issue which increases the potential for lots of different errors.
The whole purpose of this video is to encourage athletes to use their data but with a grain of salt. Have a read through the comments on this video and you will see this is a big problem for many users, both from a psychological aspect and having reliable AND valid data!
@@NutritionTriathlonWell. Every measurement is an estimation my friend. Question is how good are they. If you want to question their reliability you should come up with more than just your personal experience or feelings. I’d like to see some data. It’s just all in all a weak argument you are making. And yeah. Totally understand that people overuse and have overly confidence in the metrics Garmin provides. Use them wisely…
@@velosoph02No, that is not true and you are missing a key point here 🙂 heart rate is not an estimation and neither is heart rate variability. They are actually being measured and have high reliability and validity. However, stress score, essentially what your daily heart rate variability means for you, IS an estimation that Garmin has created. Likewise, Garmin has to estimate your sleep, and it is creating an estimation of your sleep score - again, something they have created. They are then creating an estimation - training readiness - based on the other estimated scores that they have created. These are in-house scores that they are creating that have no standardisation or scientific backing via papers or trials.
However, something like heart rate variability in its truest sport fashion (morning resting reading) DOES have research investigating it.
I love my Garmin, but I’m also realistic about what it does for me. I use a 935 and an HRM Pro chest strap. The amount of data is unreal, and most of it--for me-is unusable in the moment or unusable within 24 hours. HR measures with the chest strap is awesome. My GPS is accurate to within .01 miles consistently and I’ve measured it against a distance measuring wheel. Sleep has been an above average metric. A couple metrics that were valuable many months after the fact were ground contact time and Left-right strike balance since I had broken my ankle and to assess whether or not my biomechanics were different after healing, I could compare old data to new data. The data is pretty unusable in the moment, but great to have for comparison later if you need it. The elevation is complete garbage….rarely accurate. Distance travelled when using the treadmill is always bad. Training status--for me--is absolutely laughable. I can go from unproductive to peaking to detraining in a 4 day time span….I literally use this metric for sheer entertainment value because it means absolutely nothing. VO2 max is also a joke. Though I have never measured it in a lab, my VO2 max from Garmin has jumped 8 points before after one hard steady effort…..and that steady effort was part of a normal training block where I was training 6-7 days per week. Again--I love my Garmin but I know what doesn’t apply to me and my type of endurance training--and that’s ok!
Your watch was developed in 2017 - 7 years ago. That means that the heart rate sensor was also developed about 7 years ago. The VO2 Max and Training Status algorithms are not going to be the same on a 7 year old watch as they will be on one from the past 2-3 years with newer, more dynamic technology. This is like owning an iPhone 8 and saying that the battery/camera are trash and don’t work for you as a photographer 🤦
@@aaaaooooii///except I also run with people that have all the latest watches, and not just Garmin. The Garmin users either turn off Training Status altogether or laugh at it like I do. I also run with people that I can smoke in a 5k, but there VO2 max is measured 8 points higher…it’s just wrong. And so on.
Sure, i have an old watch with old tech, but the advances according to those I know that have the newer stuff let me know that we aren’t talking giant leaps here….its baby steps at best. HR with the strap and GPS awesome. Everything else is take it or leave it….and that’s fine….i still love it. But anyone that thinks their VO2 max is 62 and can barely break 18:00 in a 5k is just using their Garmin as an ego stroker.
Sounds like a whole load of ups and downs with your watch!
Never slept better after ditching my Garmin watch
Kinda crazy hey?
@@NutritionTriathlon Yes! Never would have thought that tbh
Garmin data is nonsense.
I’m 69 and my Garmin recommends me to do sprints at 5.10 miles pace. I could only do 5.30 miles 30 years ago at my peak
HR readings are miles out compared to Polar & Apple
It is not nonsense. It may be for you, most probably the shape of hour wrist or skin characteristics or whatever else means your HR is not measured properly and after that everything will be off. For most people it's pretty accurate, especially newer models.
@@yianpap6093 I use an either a chest strap or an arm strap for runs. I tried using the wrist stats on my Garmin for recovery & sleep tracking but the sensor on a £600 Garmin is miles off
It seems that people get very varying results with Garmin!
@@NutritionTriathlon Polar, Coros and Apple are all better than Garmin for HR tracking.
@@Neilveg It's strange to me that someone who is 69 hasn't learned to make measured statements, but there you go. I have a Suunto 5, a Coros Pace 3 and a Garmin 965. I've tested all of them for a month (running) together with a Polar chest strap for reference. The Coros and the Suunto have been pretty much useless for HR. The 965 is pretty much perfect. Most reviewers agree with my findings. I don't buy Apple, but their HR is supposed to be very good indeed. So maybe your Garmin is defective, or an old model, or who knows. But you cannot be talking generally like you do.
I have a Friend who is into the Hawaii Competitions, and does Competitions that are not even known to anyone. He’s wearing a Rolex. I’m on a Garmin Tactix because I think it’s helpful, but I’m not even running Marathons. So these measurements don’t have much impact on me.
Rolex is an interesting choice for a race!
I stress over the stress and see my body battery draining all day before I can exercise in the evening after work. Then I stress I won’t re-charge enough for the next day even with enough sleep. HRV well that just seems to go low and low all the time so I’m starting to ignore it. I wear my watch 24/7 #stress 😂
Haha, a vicious circle hey? Not fun 😂
I've stopped using the metrics, but mainly because it throws a wobbler with training load. I swim with form goggles now, so it doesn't pull through swim workouts to garmin. And then they updated the algorithm so my bike computer doesn't add to the load on my watch. So now it thinks my runs are always 'unproductive' because my watch only considers that
Record your heart rate as a Cardio activity while you swim to get the training effect, and set your bike computer as the Primary Training Device in the app.
@@aaaaooooii I don't pool swim with a watch now, and my bike computer doesn't have that capability because it's an older model, but it still works so I won't be replacing it
Yeah I've had similar problems using my wahoo as well. Unfortunately the eco system is a bit rubbish at times!
For me data points are too general and not reliable for small analysis and the trends provide big picture. However, the training readiness seemed always off.
I think the trends can be useful, yep!
Those metrics work very well for me. All metrics have errors for all devices but are useful if you know how to interpret them. The video is useless and very very biased.
Hah, thank you for your input!
I think it comes down to whether or not you treat health tools as a guide, or a God.
Haha, the Garmin God! I like that.
You’re the best 🙏🏼
Thank you 😊
How are you going to record on Strava without the watch?
With a phone.
And if it ain't on Strava... 😂
@@NutritionTriathlon .....it doesn't count. 😅
any tips for more sleep time (also better sleep)? average sleep is only almost 6 hours or less
Unfo I'm not a sleep expert, but my basic recommendations would be sleep hygiene (less screen time before bed, relaxing environment etc), no caffeine after 12 noon, no alcohol, consistent bed time
@@NutritionTriathlon okay.. but at least 8hours of sleep?
That's different for everyone. I think at least 6 hours is a good number! More if you can
Try being an insomniac and wear a garmin, it great fun. I only use the matrix that I need and laugh at the rest.
😂 Gotta get your kicks from somewhere right?!