TREE TRIOS THE KEY TO THE PERMACULTURE ORCHARD
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2024
- This week we unlock tree TRIOS which are the key to the Permaculture Orchard. N - A - P and it's variations. Nitrogen fixer tree, Apple and Pear or Plum. How it compares to our remnant monoculture apple orchard.
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"Never bend down to do one thing." - great principle
The 'flee from a monoculture orchard ' slo-mo made me laugh. I immediately got a flashback to Duke Atreides screaming to spice miners to run for their lives.
I like your positivity. It’s hard to see something you’ve cared for not make it or die. I was pretty distraught when two of my trees that were three years old died of fire blight. I’ll definitely be incorporating this ideology into the orchard I plant this winter
I had a bush cherry that constantly self pruned off with bad branches but never got bad enough to affect the whole tree.
that dodge at the end is why it is wise to have glasses on when in the woods , especially if lost in the woods at night, those twigs in the eye will ruin your day
Wow, if you had a chipper for all those branches and made use of them as ground cover your rows would never compact, and you would most likely add mushrooms to that food forest.
Tellement agréable de voir quelqu'un qui a l'air si heureux de faire ce qu'il fait :)
Very knowledgable. No arrogance. Love and understanding of the land impeccable. TFS
Stefan, could you recommend (or perhaps make) a video about tree grafts? My mains doubts are on the subject of what would be the best choices of species of plants to graft different types of trees on. Loved this video, I always learn a lot from you.
So grateful David the Good recommended your channel. Grateful to both of you for sharing your knowledge! Thank you
Subscribed !
Great information !
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the rest of the world !
Awesome, thank you!
Diversity is good ... Hate seeing logging companies clear cut and replant mono such as Douglas fir or white pine ... Bugs love a feast ...
Many things wrong with clear cuts including creating catastrophic burning conditions.
Not only is redbud a nitrogen fixer, it's great for pollinators in the early spring and has edible flowers! When I eventually get my permaculture orchard I'm definitely incorporating that tree!
Best hope for a mild climate. Also, its a very difficult plant to propagate.
In Oklahoma its budding is used as an indicator that it is probably about time to hunt morel mushrooms.
@@JohnDawson6488 the same way here in Central Indiana
Great information..i want to put in a diverse orchard and have a few options to choose from.
"Unlike most other plants in Fabaceae, the redbud does not develop nodules along its roots to form a symbiotic relationship with nitrogen fixing bacteria to fix nitrogen. "
Great video and concept...
I want to avoid trees which can grow out of control.
Black & Honey locust here can take over in just 5-8 years, I just cit a bunch out.
I'm in Northern Pennsylvania, and trying to see which trees to plant that like to grow here and possibly add Nitrogen fixers which also have a crop to harvest like Hazel.
The can also be coppiced to harvest branches to use in wood stick furniture.
What about willows, birches, alders, hazels, hornbeam.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Look into autumn olive, goumi or siberian pea shrub.
I advise you to cut the branches in a little pieces or wood chips and put them on in line of your trees. It's the best amendment. Thanks to the video.
Simple concept that strikes me as having lots of applications.
Solid content. Very good.
You've changed my life bro!
Magnificent thanks so much I really learned alot. I hope to get to your farm to buy lots and lots.
i just got some illinois bundle flower seeds from a friend who found them on a walk. Never heard of it before. May be a good nitrogen fixer for my fruit tree guild.
Very nice!
good stuff as always. ill be planting trios very soon, may wait until the fall
Did you ever get your trees planted?
Excellent advice - thanks for leading.
lol....NAP are the initials of my name..i am sold!!!
vive ,, la sainte trinité ,, de la permaculture Monsieur Stefan
The NAP model spaces out trees in part to help isolate pests that would otherwise spread to those immediately around it. However, the rows go NAP, APN, PNA, NAP etc.. which creates diagonal rows. Doesn't that remove the benefit of this spacing system as rows still exist?
You're correct it forms diagonal rows but since the trees do not touch from one row to the other it's not an issue. You've been studying the system well.
Asper edbud "Unlike most other plants in Fabaceae, the redbud does not develop nodules along its roots to form a symbiotic relationship with nitrogen fixing bacteria to fix nitrogen. "
thank you..
Since technically avocados are fruits, can I plant those as the “P” in the trio theory?
Absolutely.
this is awesome
Aside from apples and pears, I have cherry, nectarine, peaches, apricot, plums, persimmons, can I apply trios to them too. My orchard had a net over because where we live there’s a lot of wild birds they will eat the fruits. I can’t plant big trees. The maximum height around 10 feet
If you already have trees planted use shrub nitrogen fixers that don't grow more than 10' high.
Stefan Sobkowiak sorry I meant 10 meters high the netting of my orchard, not 10 feet
maybe turn some of those birds into dog food
I prefer to keep trees pruned and don't understand having huge poles with few branches. Maybe I am missing the idea.
I found this video very interesting, but I would like to design a fruit orchard with a lot of different kinds of fruit. The trio concept is very interesting but what can I use instead of the apple and pear trees? What are the attributes that I should look for to substitute these trees? 2 or 3 varieties of apples is enough for me and since I don't like pears 1 type would be enough for me to be able to gift. I don't want to occupy space with things that I am not going to eat or have other uses for.
Thank you ☺️
Absolutely, grow whatever fruit grows like a weed in your area and that you like.
Done my fen video rất hay đẹp tuyệt vời
NAPNAPNAPNAPNAPNAPNAP then take a nap! What is Cultivar, Mr. Stefan?
I have a video explaining the difference between cultivar and variety.
@@StefanSobkowiak Thank you, I've found it in English
Great Video. I was wondering whether you could all of the upper canopy trees as fruit producing and the lower bushes as the nitrogen fixers e.g Goumi berries, Leadplant. Would this not work?
Yes you can! If your canopy trees leaf out above the N fixers. Keep in mind many N fixing species are pioneer (soil improving, site preparing species) and REQUIRE full sun, they may not survive under canopy trees. Check their shade tolerance.
Honey locust - is it said on Wikipedia that this tree is not capturing any nitrogen for other plants, no?
It's not clear mainly because they use another pathway than most legume plants that have nodules. Based on my growth they sure are doing something good.
I wish to ask about bending top of the central leader of a tree. If I bend it on 3 metres, to stop growing higher, will I stop it for long?
Krzysztof Rudnicki you can usually limit a tree to 2/3 of its final height by bending the central leader. The height depends on the rootstock potential.
We just bought a 6 acre farm and I'm very interested in permaculture. I recently ordered 3 apple trees and 2 pear trees for delivery in the spring, but I'm thinking I need a few more trees. At least one more pear and three nitrogen fixers. My question is, do you spray your trees? The orchard near my home said they spray their trees every week. I want to be as organic as I can, but I don't want fruit with bugs in it.
Also, with 9 trees would it be better to plant a row, or in a grid configuration?
@sisterinspeed - I would start by reviewing the documentary « The permaculture orchard: beyond organic » , the link is at the top of the commentary section. This will give you some ideas to follow up on for bugs etc., and how to best manage your orchard for maximum production with the least amount of work.
awesome
Awesome
surprised there's no guilds planet at the foot of the trees, too.
edit: ah, winter came.
I was under the impression that redbud is an exception among Fabaceae and is known not to nodulate or fix nitrogen. Am I mistaken?
Not sure, looks nice
Hey, good work! Can I ask what birds are you trying to attract with the bird houses?
My family and I are starting a small homestead/farm and we are in the early stages. It was all forest so its been a long road. We will be establishing an orchard and I wanted to have multiple fruits all in one area. This is a good layout. I like companion planting. Thanks for the video!
Terry
Forest ToFarm I hope to do a video on birds this season. Basically for the 1.5” hole nest box: chickadee, tree swallows, house wren, house sparrow, bluebird, nuthatch, downy woodpecker (maybe) as well as chipmunks, deer mouse and bumblebees. For 2” hole boxes: starling, great crested flycatcher and the mammals. For 3” hole boxes, the largest: American kestrels, screech owls, red squirrels and maybe saw whet owls.even better than building nest boxes is to leave dead trees. You can remove the branches and cut it back to 15-20 feet and it will serve as bird central for 10-20 years.
If the trios stagger in rows, then you still have "striaght" lines of "mono culture" in the orchard then?
Yes there are diagonal rows of honey locust and apples. They don’t function at all like the monoculture i had where the trees touched in the rows. A bit of distance makes a big difference. Having a grassy aisle in between makes all the difference.
So a 30% percentage of nitogen fixers?
If you have two sides to a forest, with a 20ftx40ft grass lane in between..what is a good tree planting pattern for each side? Walnuts on one side, fruit on the other?
Yes not mixing walnut and fruit trees.
What type of trees are, what you call, nitrogen fixers?
Honey and black locust, Russian and autumn olive, goumi, caragana, alders...
Hey Stefan, excellent video. Please tell me, what is the distance between each of your trees? What is the distance between orchard rows?
Spacing varies based on rootstock, soil fertility and cultivar vigour. I use 8x12’, 8x10’, 21’x24’
@@StefanSobkowiak TY
@@StefanSobkowiak is the row your walking through all semi dwarf stock?
Hello I would like to be sur I understand well what you explained.
We have to grow 2 fruits trees for one nitrogen fixer? This is it?
Cheer!
You don't have to do anything. You can simply choose to grow fruit trees in a pattern that is more in line with how nature does. Monoculture out, polyculture in. A nitrogen fixer then 2 fruit trees, repeat for as many trees you intend to add. It can be a nitrogen fixer, a fruit and a nut. No laws, no rules just experiment.
Oh lol so key is biodiversity and harmony with nature :)
@@StefanSobkowiak Instead of planting locust as a nitrogen fixer, could you sub in another tree (preferably from another family like hazlenut or walnut [assuming no allelopathic conflicts)], and instead use an herbaceous nitrogen fixing ground cover like clover or alfalfa?
Do the nitrogen fixers have to be trees or can you use nitrogen fixing groundcover such as alfalfa, clover, or beans?
You can but root depth and effect won’t be the same. Use both.
Where do you get the nitrogen fixing stuff? No one sells it around here because, they say, it's invasive.
We gathered seeds and started young trees from them.
Does this logic apply when planting dwarf apples? I have 3 types.. wondering now if i should plant some "fixers" in this manner... if i can figure out what species are actually nitrogen fixers are you put them...
You don't want the nitrogen fixers to shade out the fruit. Guomi (Elaeagnus multiflora), Caragana, and Amorpha fruticosa or canescens would be more in scale. You could also use Ceanonthus americanus (New Jersey tea) in front of the fruits, and various forbs (annual or perennial herbs) in the legume family (some Caesalpinoid legumes, like Senna, don't fix nitrogen though). Clovers and alfalfa are probably easiest to source. Alfalfa and Dalea species are deep rooted steppe plants. They might not do well in wet areas, but where they succeed they should double as "dynamic accumulators" (plants that mine the subsoil for nutrients and return them to the topsoil when chopped and added to the mulch).
I'm just curious if you can share the resource used indicating that Cercis canadensis is a nitrogen-fixer. Everything I've read indicates that it doesn't have the nitrogen fixing nodules on its root. But I'm new to all of this, so I would really like to read more about this.
Julie i am not certain of it but the legume family of plants have a tendency to do so, even without nodules. There seems to be two mechanisms for fixation with visible nodules and fixation all along the roots. Also seems to occur in many pioneer species that are not legumes. Makes sense and a good strategy. I just know it works.
would you advise against using 3 types of fruit instead of a nitrogen fixing tree? In my case I would like to do apples, peaches, and either pears or plums. I plan on planting nitrogen fixing shrubs between the trees. I'm curious if the nitrogen needs can be met without the trees in order to save space for fruit producers. would there be disease/pest issues as a result of replacing the N tree with a fruit of a different species.
Nitrogen shrubs in between each fruit tree should work well. The idea with a N tree is that it also breaks up the rose family continuity (apple, pear, plum, peach. Would be nice to get a fig, pawpaw or persimmon as one of the three.
@@StefanSobkowiak awesome, thank you for the advice!
Les fixateurs d’azote comme l’acacia sont envahissants, comment gérez vous le « drageonnage » et les rejets?
Plantez pas ceux qui sont problématiques pour votre site. Il y en a assez à choisir.
How do I know what a nitrogen fixer is?
You can look up species that have that ability.
What trees fix nitrogen? And how?
See my video on: these trees improve the soil.
What distance do you plant your nitrogen fixer from your Apple, and then pear trees. We started planting fruit trees this year, Apple, plum and cherry. My husband wanted to have 20 ft between them but I think you plant much closer. We have maple trees through out the fruit.
Depends on what rootstock you use. We use dwarf rootstock for apples on poor soil so we can space tighter at 8-10’ between trees. For you 20’ may be safer.
I have followed your videos for a while now, and always come back to this one - a foundation for the layout, so to speak. I have a question regarding cultivar variation: just how important is it to alternate e.g. apple cultivar in the rows? I would imagine it was easier to plant the same apple throughout a row, because then you know that row would harvest at the same time - rather than having to visit 1 tree in every row for harvest. Am I missing something?
You can use the same one but we have up to 5 different cultivars in a row of the same species mixed into trios. The key is to know their harvest date and to group the same harvest dates together in a row. A date is a 10 day window, ie early september is 10 days, mid sept and so on.
@@StefanSobkowiak that makes sense! Thanks for the reply :)
Haw to apply trio rule, when I would like to plant Vaccinium corymbosum L, which needs a low ph soil?
Plant blueberry with Christmas tree planting.
@@StefanSobkowiak Thank You for advice, so spruces and pines as neighbours :-)
Can be or whatever is used for Christmas trees in your region. Here its balsam fir. But the goal is to harvest them every 10 years or so and replant or retrain to give good light to blueberries.
Monoculture defies the wisdom of taking the path of least resistance as you are actually fighting the Creator's Systems ?
Trio Trees Q:
Do you prune the "N" trees down often to keep their crowns from shading the "A" & "P" trees?
For instance, Locust can grow allot faster than Dwarf Apples.
Thanks for all you do.
Walter
aka: Dusty Splinters
Yes pruned and branches trained down, at least for honey locust. They are multi functional trees.
@@StefanSobkowiak Thank you, Which is your favorite "N" tree?
I'm assuming you want something which flowers along with the "A" & "P" to attract more pollinators, right?
I'm officially in Zone 5a but I have a funny feeling my property has allot ofMicroclimates.
Was out walking yesterday and parts of the lawn are still snow covered while others a bare and mostly green.
I like them all it depends what you will be growing them with and what you need them to do. Yes Nitrogen fixing (soil improvement), mulch production, as a post, as a stake for vines to grow on, as a nectar tree, for beneficial insects, as shade or partial shade, as wood for posts, for trellis building, for stake building, for firewood, as forage for herbivores, as bark food for rabbits, there are likely more.
@@DustySplinters An alternate view is to spread the flowering out to support and keep more pollinators around longer, rather than just all at once. Can’t say which is best.
I thought this was about trio of needed apple pollens for impregnating properly
If you have a few trios you never have to worry about lack of pollination. In fact if you watch our bee video you see the opposite happens you get too much pollination.
Thanks for your inspiring videos, Stefan!
Question: do you use nitrogen fixing shrubs instead of trees sometimes? Like dogwood or sea buckthorn or buffalo berry or globe caragana? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on those.
Yes go see the nitrogen fixing shrubs video for a list and uses of them.
@@StefanSobkowiak thanks! Explored your channel but hadn't come across that yet. I'll take a look.
Great stuff Stefan! What are your thoughts on how to integrate into an existing young orchard that did not use the NAP concept. Can it be done? I planted 36 apple trees a year ago. Would love to integrate nitrogen fixers, shrubs, perennials, etc. trees were planted 15’ apart and 15’ rows. Any advice in integrating? I have 12 peach and 12 pears coming this year too. Thanks for all you do my friend!
If you want to add N use shrubs since your space is already set. For the peach and pear you can add them on the periphery with N.
Thanks Stefan! Will do my friend!
Hello Stefan what other nut trees/nitrogen fixer that I can plant on my orchard?
How about my other fruit trees on my orchard, I got also nectarines, peaches, apricot, persimmon, cherry,
Lucky you are able to grow such diversity. You could probably grow pecan, walnut, and maybe almond. N fixers could be locust, Russian olive, goumi, autumn olive, sea berry and maybe carob.
Stefan Sobkowiak thank you for your advice....
I thought almonds didn’t play well with nectarines and peaches? Makes them bitter I read
Could the nitrogen fixing trees be pollarded in the 3 tree plan or do you want them to be high up above the shorter trees?
Yes they can. I don’t want N trees larger than the fruit trees in light limiting northern climate.
If I only have enough room for one row of about 6 trees would 2 of them have to be a nitrogen tree? That would leave me only 4 fruit bearing trees. Could I not have nitrogen fixing shrubs instead?
Yes you can, or fertilize your trees, or spray them to control pests. You never HAVE TO add diversity, it just saves you work down the road.
Can blueberries be placed in the shrub spots?
Yes but they need a higher iron level than most plant, just use some old rusty metal and lots of organic mulch.
Stefan I was wondering if standard trees could be managed using your training method to a smaller height without topping. I like that standards have larger root systems and longer lifespan so I shy away from dwarf or semi dwarf because of that. I'd like to fit as many trees as I can into the acreage I want to plant though so I'm conflicted. I plan on planting out 1 to 3 acres NAP style. Just wondering how close I could get to training standards down to the heights you have maybe 15 to 20 feet maximum. Thanks for any advice or personal opinions
Usually you can keep a tree to 2/3 of it’s maximum height (for the rootstock size) by bending the central leader. It sounds like you want to cram in the trees. Don’t, since if the trees are too tight they will do the opposite of what you intend and reach for the sky to make sure they get their spot in the sun. I like to say about spacing ‘when in doubt space them out ‘
Would it be ok to put a nitrogen fixer then a shrub cherrie tree and then plum tree has a trio ? I don't have much space left and I already have lots of trios of diffrent types of pears and apples with nitrogen fixers. Im worry that a shrub cherrie tree and plum tree or the same family and would not be good choice in the trio but I have limited space left and dont want more apples and pears what do you think?
Sounds good just make sure they will have full sun, cherries and plums are full sun pioneers.
How do i find out more about nitrigen fixing trees.
Google should give you a quick look ‘nitrogen fixing trees ‘
What trees are nitrogen fixers?
Honey and black locust, Russian olive, redbud, caragana (pea shrub), goumi, autumn olive, alder...
What is the distance between trees
Depends on the rootstock you use and the type of soil. We use 8-20’ by 12-24’
I thought that eastern redbuds DO NOT fix nitrogen.
They are a legume species.
@@StefanSobkowiak I understand that, but they are one of the few legumes that do not fix nitrogen... from my understanding. ...they do not contain the elements needed to sustain nitrogen fixing bacteria.
...it's just sitting there, looking pretty.
Les arbres fixateurs d’azote le fixe pour eux-mêmes. Comment cet azote devient-il disponible pour les arbres voisins ?
Nitrogen-fixing trees fix it for themselves. How does this nitrogen become available to neighboring trees?
Par la taille des branches.
If you need a male and female tree, how do you rotate them into the trio?
Male in first trio and females for the next 2-6 trios. Use males at the start of rows as bees often come up from the beginning. What fruit are you growing that has male and female trees? I only think of kiwi and seaberry.
@@StefanSobkowiak we are in the process of putting a plan together. I know that after watching several of your videos I want both seaberry and kiwi.
Thank you for your tips and tricks, the geotextile is preventing weeds, is it stoping the natural nutriments to get to the roots underground?
It’s actually 4 mil plastic and it lets the nutriments through where we add holes.
Hi there, could you tell me what is nitrogen fixer? I mean which trees are nitrogen fixers?
See our video: these trees improve your soil.
@@StefanSobkowiak got it....thank you
What do you mean by nitrogen fixer?
A plant that captures atmospheric nitrogen with a bacteria association on it’s roots.
What's the spacing on all of those? Starting an orchard.
Typical Permaculture answer, IT DEPENDS. We used 8'x 12' (too close!). It depends on the rootstock you use and the vigour of the cultivars. My advice 'when in doubt, space them out', you can always add a shrub or 2 in between but will rarely cut some down.
@@StefanSobkowiak live in Minnesota. Been watching your videos. Going to give it a shot, thanks for your reply.
what about..
Legume - Apple - Papaya ?
You may have trouble finding an Apple that will grow where papaya grows.
do you use plastic mulch?
Yes
hi! would it work to put pasture between the tree rows and have goats in there with electric fence and move them each 3 days and then having the chicken layers coming 3-4 days later? thanks
2quick4 u chickens great goats and fruit trees bad idea unless you want to get rid of the trees or they have first branches at 6’ and are standard trees
Goats will debark your trees and likely girdle and kill them..(I raised goats for several years)
Cercis is a legume but doesn't nodulate.
Wait, I didn't think Eastern Redbud fixed nitrogen?
Does it? Doesn’t it? It’s a legume tree so am trying it. Anyway it’s so beautiful in spring and summer that it’s worth trying.
@@StefanSobkowiak Well I always thought it did fix nitrogen, now I'm seeing that it doesn't. Either way you are right that its really beautiful, brings in a lot of pollinators here in Arkansas, so I am germinating nevertheless. Your vids are awesome!
Sorry I meant 10 meters high my orchard net not 10 feet.
then you can use the tree nitrogen fixers
I'm new to the channel and have a question. Where would you put a peach tree? Could it be the "P" as well? And Figs! We have wild plums all around us already and some tame plum trees not far away (literally across the road.) I'm going to plant peach and at least a couple more apples (I have one apple already that bears fruit every year) We have wild grape and Muscadines, along with blackberries and Elderberry that are all growing wild.
Kali certainly you can try peach and fig. Sounds like the plums want to grow like weeds so for sure plant them. Also sounds like your site is better for peach and plum than apples.
What tree is nitrogen fixer tree?
There are many but the ones we trial are: (trees) honey locust, black locust, Russian olive, Kentucky coffeetree, redbud, (Shrubs) seaberry, caragana, goumi, eleagnus umbellata, eleagnus commutata, wisteria (vine)
Stefan Sobkowiak thank you for the reply
Hi, You’re absolutely right ! No more monoculture, no wonder all bees died especially in almond monoculture fields, it is so huge, bees just can’t get out of there to eat something else ! Just think if You were the Bee, Condemned , to Eat for All Meals, Your whole life, the same food !!! Prisoners in jails are more lucky, they have 3 different meals a day. With that evil menue, Bees decided to die !!!
Check out the bee videos in the playlist
Alright youtube. I watched the video now stop it.
Dommage que ce soit en anglais,est-ce que l'on peut le trouver en français...
Natalie certaines vidéos sont en anglais d’autres en français. Vous pouvez essayer la traduction automatique. Ell n’est pas parfaite mais d’habitude on peut comprendre le sens de la vidéo.
:-)
with all those dead trees it does not look like your permaculture orchard is doing that well.
Hi Rocco any commercial orchard plans to replace trees yearly, up to 3% per year. I have not been replacing trees every year so the dead ones accumulate over time. I’ve also begun the last few years to leave dead tree trunks for woodpeckers.