The B-17's Fatal Flaw
Vložit
- čas přidán 5. 12. 2020
- The B-17 flying fortress had a Mysterious but Fatal design flaw from the first day they entered service. A flaw that would cause a number of B-17s to spontaneously combust mid-air and their crews to perish. Nobody understood why it happened, as there were usually no knowledgeable survivors from this type of accident…Until this day when the mystery was finally solved. NOTE : The footage in this video is the best closest representation to what happened.
Please Subscribe by clicking here, Its free and helps grow the channel massively. Lets get to 100,000 subscribers! czcams.com/users/SgtVittie?su...
Support my work for just $1, These videos take week to research and produce. Donations keep our lights on. You can do so here : / sgtvittie
Over 1800 members, Join me on Discord!
/ discord
#history #ww2
Video Sources (In order)
• Video
• B17 from the 92nd Bomb...
• WW2 Bombers - 1943 col...
• Flamethrowers in WW 2 ...
• B-17 Flying Fortress A...
• Weaponology - "Boeing ...
• B-17 Fortresses and B-...
Music Sources
Strings Inspiration - SergePavkinMusic
Music Link: • Free Music / Cinematic...
Music: Goodbye Forever - SergePavkinMusic
Music Link: • Free Music / Sad Piano...
Song: "Savfk - For Tomorrow [Epic]" is licensed under a ‘Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License (CC BY 4.0)’.
Music promoted by BreakingCopyright: bit.ly/Savfk-ForTomorrow
Hey have you seen this before? czcams.com/video/WGzGrdLhzis/video.html
My guess is the B-17's fatal flaw was EVERYONE in Germany was shooting at them.
And Japan, Losers.
@@calonarang7378 You calling us. The winners, losers?
someone left out the deflector shields
@@calonarang7378 🤡
Being shot at sounds pretty fatal to me
OMG the balls of that crew getting the 17 back to base.
its called survival ........
@@TONYPARAMOTOR survival *instinct*
They would probably rather be back at the base than be stranded in the countryside where they could become POWs.
@@CHEF-55457 Hopefully become POW's, some aircrew weren't so fortunate having been torn apart and hung by enraged civilians in Germany. Sometimes German military personnel just stood by and watched.
Dang very impressed that the gunners knew how to fly the bomber back home. Both pilots bailing out reminded of this comedic bit where a taxi driver jumps out the car while the passenger in the back watches his driver rolling away thinking, wtf & oh shaki ga!
If the crew actually landed this plane with no pilots onboard they should have at the very least received some kind of medal.
I'll say!
Promote them to flight school at the same time!!!
As for D.G. Perhaps that is so... many men did exactly that and weren't sissies (or light in the loafers, as they say)
They didn't - the video gets it wrong, unfortunately. The navigator and bombardier bailed out, not the pilots.
And the Officers that abandoned their men deserved a blanket party before a court-martial.
@@iain3482 That explains a lot and makes moot many of these disagreements, but what's your source for this information? The video needs a complete redo of its narration if you're right.
@@robinsattahip2376 Many times you had very little time do get away and if you were under direct flames you were lucky to escape with your life. Burning parachute is very poor parachute. Should the wing fails, plane goes into spins and leaving is nearly impossible - in such cases planes too often perished with all man on boards. And communication lines can be severed and you you may be cut off the rest of the plane by fire.
It is easy to make judgements behind the keyboard - but in that time, tens thousand of men perished in struck bombers unable to get out safely
When you say "They had two options either fight the fire or bailout. They chose the latter." That means they chose the 2nd option to bail out, and not remain on the plane. Instead, you should have said, "They chose the former option."
you are correct former not later.
Former means the first option mentioned. Latter means the next, second or last option mentioned. They chose the latter, which option was to bail out. "Latter" is correct English.
His French so there will be flaws.
I thought that they were preparing to bail out but the fire halted and the stayed, at least that's how I took it
@@ashemgold The gunners didn't.
The luftwaffe fighter pilots were trained to aim between behind of the wing and waist gunners because it was a natural weak spot for the b-17 to split in half.
Luftwaffe pilots were trained to target different areas from all angles depending on the mission, for example from the front they would be told to target the front part of the plane as it could seperate the cockpit from the rest of the aircraft basically making the plane uncontrollable , from the sides they are told to aim at the waist gunner to possibly split the plane in half and all that , it isnt just one target
Probably unknown to the Luftwaffe pilots,was they were hitting those oxygen tanks,splitting the B-17 in half. After hearing about what Sgt. Vitte said that makes sense.
That's actually the weak spot for most WWII tail-dragger aircraft due to the center of gravity.
@@richardlahan7068 that’s probably true. The B-17 has less metal in that spot because of the top radio operator window and the ball turret at the bottom.
Yeah, watching the old war movies etc, often thought that while the US waist gunner was an improvement on anything the British or Germans had to offer, nonetheless, it did strike me as somewhat overly exposed for those Heroic guys standing there! Only good thing I think to 'recommend' that position, like all things US Military 'chain of supply', there was seldom any scarcity of Ammo! 'Blaze away to your heart's content'!!
Still, with their Close Formations designed to give each other protective covering fire, ... Just How often 'friendly-fire' may have been responsible for Allied casualties?-!-!
2:57 "What could have caused such a violent fire?"
Apollo 1 Crew: "Um... pure oxygen?"
And a single spark. Not to nitpick but oxygen doesn’t spontaneously combust.
It’s just one of three things needed for fire: fuel, heat and oxygen.
Forgive me if I come across rude or arrogant, it was not my intention. Thank you
No just pure oxygen, but pure oxygen at a pressure of two atmospheres. In actual space conditions, there would be vacuum on the outside and one atmosphere inside the ship, but during the ground test the outside of the hatch was subjected to normal atmospheric pressure, and the increased inside pressure was necessary to keep the pressure differential across the hatch at its normal value of one atmosphere.
This man likes every comment, the dedication
:)
@@FlakAlley :>
This WWII example illustrates exactly why safety engineering is so important in the process of designing / developing new airframes. A problem like this (chafing) can and should be anticipated by a responsible design team, and addressed. Some cheap, rubber grommets and a single extra pre-flight inspection step could have saved several dozen lives.
The bravery of those air crews is something I'll never fully grasped. After just one mission, a normal person would be simply terrified to death to get back in the plane and do it again.
All barely beyond, or still in their teens, And kids today think they have it bad.... God bless these brave men.
Damn the old, rich men who sent them to die.
My Dad, a waist gunner, had the nickname "The Old Man" from the rest of the crew. He was 25. Other than the pilot, the rest of the crew were 18-19 years old.
@@nickthompson9697 what old rich men they where most likely volunteers
@@saxmusicmail Mine was the Flight Engineer (B-24) and was born in 1917, also usually the oldest on hand.
It's still young kids taking the brunt of our endless wars. Some respect is deserved today too.
My grand father was a B-17 radio operator from 1943-1945. He never talked about any injuries he sustained (as far as I know he had none) or damage that his planes took (he also flew his last 10 missions of the war in a B-24) but talked about seeing events like this play out. How people would die even after the fighting stopped. He always said that was the worst thing about war. That people in general where just dying all the time from accidents and fate around every corner even when the bullets weren’t flying.
He specifically cited an example similar to the beginning of the movie “Memphis Belle” when the B-17 crashes on the run way and explodes. Accept in his story, rather than standing there being startled by the crash and explosion, they where diving behind sandbags as the fire cooked off the remaining bullets left in the guns shooting up other aircraft and crews in the area.
I have no facts or references to back this story, I know people are going to have their opinions on this or cite some sort of procedure they might have followed. But I wasn’t there nor was I alive to verify it. But the way my grandad taught about his past and recieved the war in his mind and lived his life. I can’t imagine that this was some bluff or exaggeration.
I've never heard of this story. There is always new things to learn.
My father was a B-17 Flying Fortress Pilot/Aircraft Commander in the 772nd Bomb Squadron,463rd Bomb Group 15th Air Force with 50 combat missions/35 sorties. His Airbase was at Celone Airfield near Foggia Italy.
Dad fortunately was never injured during the war.
I never heard of it either, so I did some research to find the real story. I googled "Larry Stevens B-17" to find it.
@@emonticello Thank you very much that goes into greater in depth detail.
I see the stories too.
@@m9078jk3 It appears that the CZcams author cobbled several B-17 stories together. The real story about "Full House" isn't that unusual - except for the navigator and bombardier immediately bailing out when they saw the fireball. A more interesting story is the June 16 1943 mission of "Old 666", a recon B-17 in the Pacific (which was also another aircraft named after the last few digits of its serial number). Also, "Full House" returned to England from Ukraine via Foggia -- with a temporary navigator and bombardier, of course!
@@emonticello Oh yes I remember the story about 666
Mostly you didn't hear this story because it's not true. Yes there was an oxygen fire aboard Full House on August 7, 1944 during the mission to Trzebinia, but that's about the only thing FlakAlley seems to have gotten right. Neither the pilot, Lt. George Dancisin or the co-pilot, Lt. Albert Keeler bailed out. Not only was Lt. Kenneth Loehwing not the co-pilot on that mission, he wasn't aboard the plane. He was the co-pilot for the replacement crew that were killed in the mid air collision during 'Full House's final mission 8 days later. It was the bombardier and navigator who bailed out when their position in the nose was engulfed in a fireball. As a final aside, Larry Stevens wasn't a waist gunner, he was a tail gunner and he wrote about this incident and the rest of his career in his book, It Only Takes One: Memoirs of a Tail Gunner.
When you become a bomber pilot in just a mere minutes
The only thing wrong with the b17 is they didn't have enough .50 cals
I can see where you're coming from here but there was also an overriding requirement to carry bombs. More .50s less bombs.
@@bigblue6917 but more Daka
Simple solution: make everything bigger to carry more bombs and more .50 cals
@@confusedcapitalist2242 actually america made one bigggg bomber but I forgot it's name
Check out the YB-40
imagine the shock of the pilots who bailed, expecting it to crash, then somehow manage to recover and fly back home.
imagine bailing on your mission, and having a FIRING SQUAD waiting for you back home, with "volunteers" from your own crew. "abandoning your post in action"? FIRING SQUAD.
The pilots where already lined up with the runway from afar but the aircraft lost power and though it was not going to make it so they bailed out while the plane kept gliding into the runway
@@dwightstjohn6927 they thought the plane would crash and kill them, and they were on the way back, that is not abandoning their post
The pilots didn't bail out, it was the navigator and bombardier. They had good reason to, a huge fireball.
The only thing I can think about it either the oxygen tanks that hit or the fuel tanks but they're supposed to have self-sealing fuel tanks
Almost anything will burn in 100% oxygen. If there was a jet of oxygen, from a severed hose for example, it would provide a jet of near 100% oxygen and it only takes an electrical or static spark to ignite things that would normally be regarded as non-flammable.
Consider the 1967 Apollo 1 fire which burned through the spacecraft cabin and killed the crew in seconds.
Apollo was redesigned and a lot of "non-flammable" material removed.
Self sealing fuel tanks. Seals bullet holes. To self seal the impact and blast of a 30mm cannon shell is a tall order. By the end of the war, German fighters were armed with up to five 20 & 30mm cannons.
Were the Pilot and co-pilot who bailed out ever heard from again?
We were going to include this but the story is not as, intense. The two men who bailed out landed in Soviet-occupied territory. They would be returned to England two weeks later, where they reunited with the rest of the crew. The Russians treated them well with lots of alcohol :)
@@FlakAlley yay!
I was wondering too. Thanks Sarge.
I’m surprised the gunners didn’t beat the crap out of the two guys that abandoned them.
@@michaelc2254 same.
Man, the gunners didn't "simply" land a B-17 without pilots, Port side engines and structural damage, but they also wrote history causing this one big, giant flaw to be fixed
Hjk
The pilots stayed see above correction by sleepybadger. So Pilots actually landed the plane
My dad was a Navy flyer. He spent most of WW2 flying a B-17 converted to a hospital flying injured US soldiers from Guam to Pearl to Oakland.
Didn’t know they used them that way. Thanks!
Very well put together bro! Really enjoy these posts of yours!!
I started reading about the air war in Europe when I was just a kid. I'm a seasoned citizen now, and I have never heard this story. Thanks so much!
Freshly ground black pepper and rock salt?
I have read everything I could find and know just about all the stories published and I have never heard this before either... (I even have video of me taking a hop in Fuddy Duddy. WHAT A BLAST!!!)
The oxygen fire was so powerful it literally stole my oxygen away
My Dad piloted B-17's during the war, and he loved that aircraft. Though he later transitioned to B29's, his favorite by far was the `17. Yes, it was a frigid machine to fly at altitude, he was very disappointed when he had to fly `29's. God bless my dad for all he did, and God bless all the other aircrews that made it possible. And while we're at it, where would we be without the folks that worked like dogs in the background, building these marvelous machines? Thank you---and your families for the timeless sacrifice.
Did not know this. One of my uncles was a B17 pilot/captain who completed 3 tours (so over 75 missions) over 3 years -- surviving that many missions was pretty rare, which is why most crews did not "reup" for more tours (US crews were only required to complete one tour). Almost all of my other uncles served in various branches of the US military during World War II -- and my aunts, younger uncle and grandparents who were here in the states lived through a lot of rationing, and privations which were much more severe than anything being asked of the US public right now -- and they may have grumbled, but they knew that those things were necessary. Truly "The Greatest Generation."
On the other hand - a B-17 could absorb far more damage than any other aircraft and bring the crews home.
Mmmmm...I dunno. The 24 could take it as well.
@Evilstorm11 How? The Lancaster has essentially no armor
@Evilstorm11 That makes no sense, what would adding armor do to worsen anything, all the armor is focused around the crew anyway. If you're referring to HE fuses they would still detonate anyway, armor or not. Not to mention that the B17 has far more redundant systems than the Lancaster.
2:25 Correction - They chose the former option, not the latter.
dont need to understand english to live here. just have a lot of money to get in. or work for 50 cents an hour. mexi. thats when jobs went to hell. the gov. opened the doors for em. id never seen a mexican before 82 except in nat. geographic.
Elliot Merrill was one of the early Boeing test pilots on the B-17 and discovered an ugly feature of the early design: the fabric tore off the elevator when pushing the plane to its maximum speed in a power dive. He was by himself and the plane resisted all his efforts to regain control. With no other choice he was forced to bail out. Hanging in his parachute, he said, he watched embarrassingly as the plane stabilized itself and flew off south (toward the town of Tacoma, Washington) on its own. The plane eventually crashed, but I don't think he told me where and a "fatal flaw" was fixed. Many more planes would be lost and the company tracked the causes when it could. Whenever flaws were identified, unfortunately this was too often limited to mostly returning aircraft during the war, a team of engineers attempted to design a solution. "Fatal flaw" reduction was a big issue.
You know
How hard they fought for you, Fatal flaw, shooted down B17s, ball gunner fails etc.... All you can do now is to say "thanks"
Wat?
😲
It never occurred to anyone that this might be a problem?
Especially on the assembly line?
Holy 💩!!!
History shows that not all problems can be seen that early. After losing aircraft in such circumstances a thorough examination would help. Problem there is taking them out of service to do that. Sometimes you have to get lucky.
@@bigblue6917 correct. Logically, if a production issue is always seen on the assembly line, then every production drawing would show flawless design by Rev B
American engineering at its finest
@@yamingoat as opposd to German manufacturing. which at the time was making similar aircraft that broke in two upon landing?
The DC-10 had three separate hydraulic systems designed in such a way that losing the flight controls was impossible. Until it wasn’t - and the #2 engine of United 232 exploded destroying all 3 hydraulic systems simultaneously. The design engineers and the assembly line folks aren’t omniscient. The machines they build are enormously complex, encountering conditions and scenarios never imagined. We didn’t know that square corners on airplane windows led to fatigue cracks and in-flight break up of De Havilland Comets. Sadly, sometimes lives are lost before we discover our mistakes and correct them.
There was a guy on a B-17 that was shot down who had to bail out. But his parachute had been hit by hot shell fragments, prior, and they melted parts of it together causing it to fail to deploy. This guy is over a huge, open field, with one tree in the middle of it. He lands in the tree, and somehow between him hitting the branches, and what was left of his parachute getting caught in them breaking his fall, he walked away. There were German soldiers watching all of this, who propmptly captured him. One of them took it upon himself to write an eyewitness statement describing this guy's amazing brush with death, and they all signed it, on the grounds that it was the most amazing thing they had ever seen, and they would have never believed it in a million years if they hadn't seen it with their own eyes.
Reminds me of the story about how a woman survived a mid air plane explosion. Probably falling a few kilometers and surviving because her seat broke the fall.
Great retelling of a story I was unaware of. I find it unusual that you used film of flame throwers whenever you talked about fire extinquishers!
Yoo love the video! keep em coming.
I'll file this away in my "just in case I ever time travel back to WWII" database.
Those things were tanky as hell. They could survive insane amounts of damage.
Y e s
I got to fly twice on a B-17, the "Liberty Belle." Took my dad with me, 'cause he always loved B-17s when he was a kid during the war. He was nervous about flying, and asked the pilot during the flight about parachutes, and the pilot said there were chutes for the pilot and co-pilot. My dad asked what he was supposed to do if the two of them bailed out. The pilot said "Well, if the pilots leave the plane, you are on your own."
Just like in the war.
hug the captain and don't let go
Another fantastic true story with wonderful original film clips.
THANK YOU ! Just subscribed !
Glad you enjoyed it!
I was waiting for what felt like a year and was not disappointed
>Bail out bc aircraft is on fire
>expect to see your crew also bail out
>land in allied territory and get returned to base
>find out the untrained crew did your job better than you and saved the plane
>feelsbadman
Since the cockpit was on fire going out the escape hatch seems reasonable to me. A dead pilot is of little value and I would venture to guess that most crews had basic knowledge of flying since they were in the planes hundreds of times. Brave men to bring that beast back home and their reward was KIA. Have we had enough war everyone?
Keeping in mind they were in a tight cockpit enveloped in an oxygen fire burning alive. All did what they had to do, then the crew pulled off a Medal worthy miracle. Hand Salute, Heroes 🇺🇸
You do a hellova job with these videos good job man!
Imagine surviving that and then having the balls to get back In the same plane, salute to you my friends
She was a good bird. they had a lot of faith in her.
Survivorship Bias, When they put armor on the wrong places...
Selectivity bias, but yeah
There was a study into this and it was pointed out that armour where there was no holes on returned aircraft would be much better. Since craft hit there didn't make it back.
There was very little armor on a B 17. The tail gunners position had some with armored glass. Unfortunately it was not enough to stop german fighters cannon fire.
@@wfiguy they still were better protected than the Lancasters, their tail gunners had a 50% survival rate. Pretty much the most dangerous job on any side in the whole war.
I remember something about Abraham Wald doing a study on this during WW2 during my statistics class. Where he recommended putting armor where the survived planes had no bullet holes...
Excellent upload Sargent. Seems like Death caught up with them Final Destination style anyway, poor beggars, Rest in peace guys.
It didn't actually - the crew survived the war, as Full House was being flown by a different crew when it was shot down:
www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/10872
@@iain3482 Thanks for the info and link, I suppose it's bitter-sweet that they survived only for other young fellas to be killed, the guts and determination they showed bringing that ship in was amazing though. Thanks for giving me more insight, have a good one, cheers.
10 seconds of your video and I'm subscribed :D
Wow what an awesome story and nice job explaining it really enjoyed watching (:
At 2:28 onwards you say that they choose the latter option, you got that wrong, they chose the first option.
Those gunners should have gotten some sort of medal for landing the plane in one piece and figuring what caused the fire.
I think you’ve got a great chanel with lots of potential to put out some great content. Keep doing what you’re doing.
We appreciate that! Thanks
Love your videos Sarge.
Nobody :
Me in war thunder : "Tail Cut Loose"
So I'm a bit confused about this. I'm a pilot and also was a crewman on an unpressurized aircraft that required us to wear oxygen at high altitudes. 100% Oxygen is not a flammable gas. It is "reactive' in that it will make something else ignite at a lower temperature and burn hotter but on it's own it will not "ignite" nor "explode" like hydrogen or natural gas. My thinking here is that the leaking oxygen lines made an oxygen rich environment where any 100/130 octane aviation gasoline vapors/mist/liquid became much more volatile. Any spark or even excessive heat would make them easily ignite.
Glad someone knows some facts.to bad people will take whatever somebody says as fact.makes more sense about oxygen building up an causing explosion.if it was the line wouldn't it have blown in that area instead of a massive blast. I don't know either that might be the reason just makes more sense this way.
That's what I was thinking. Oxygen may have accelerated it, but what was actually exploding? Also, is it realistic that a crew with no piloting experience could land a damaged B17? It would be nice to get some independent verification of the facts presented here.
@@chrismorganti7486 Further researching on the story shows that the Pilot and co-pilot never bailed out of the B-17, it was the navigator and bombardier who parachuted into friendly soviet territory. Also the crew did not go down with "Full House" over Germany. They were put on R&R while awaiting the return of the navigator and bombardier, while waiting another full crew took the B-17 on the mission to be shot down. I personally maintain pressure breathing equipment for aircraft use and and can confirm that oxygen can not exclusively cause a explosion, just like Tim Briggs say's its just the foundation of the incident.
You guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but could the piping and/or any of the insulation or other coatings around the pipe have been lit off by the explosion and begun burning? I'd think that the oxygen would have a heyday with that, producing the intense fire described, right?
Never heard of this problem before. Thanks for the information!
Subscribed! Great content!!!
war is hell. But I can never decide if it's a necessary evil or not. my feelings change depending on my mood.
I never knew such a great ww2 bomber had a huge flaw, thanks for educating me about this
Excellent content. Thank you.
Great video. Subscribed.
The pictures of the flame throwers added immensely to my understanding of the situation. Great work!
I was wondering about that myself.
2:50 "the fire extinguishers" um ok! otherwise solid video, interesting story in the B-17
"With some experimenting they found out how to trim out the roll and fly straight on two engines"
So what was their experimenting? Push all the buttons until something works?
Im sure they had some idea what is where and what does what even if its not 100% after all they are on a B17 and have been for so long, lol
Great videos! Subscribed!
Extremely interesting information that i wasn't aware. Great information
I would like to know more of the B 29's fatal flaw: Leaky engines and magnesium supercharger housings.
A gunner without piloting experience landing a B17 on two engines (both on the same side) is clearly just an urban legend, to be polite
350 hour pilot here (one of the danger points). I would tend to agree with you on this one. However, there is a possibility those crew may washed out of pilot training and might have some idea of what to do. I also read that some pilots would give non-pilot crewmembers time at the controls.
My dad was a B-17/B-24 pilot in the Eight Air Force lying out of Mendelsham, England.
@@feathermerchant if you fly, you know landing is the most difficult maneuver.
So, to follow your hypothesis, put yourself in the shoes of a gunner who has been allowed to touch controls time to time (obviously in level flight only) or is a dropout (thus not the best talent for flying).
Let's assume you have been somehow able to fly the stricken plane to UK coast.
You have now two options: bail out to safety over friendly territory, or risk your life trying for the first time the most diffucult maneuver (landing) in the most difficult conditions (plane damaged on on two engines only pulling on one side).
What would you do?
Please note that WW2 chronicles are full stories of B17 pilots (pilots, not gunners!!) who bailed out once they reached friendly territory, to avoid too dangerous landings with heavy damaged planes...
"...clearly an urban legend..." An urban legend that made it into the after action report?
@@francescoguzzetta "if you fly, you know landing is the most difficult maneuver. " Yep, I fly, what's your aviation background?
@@jermainerace4156 Thank you. Using facts instead of blathering opinions. The after action report is the final word.
Great Content 👍
fantastic vid well done
Average age of those pilots was abt 25. We owe these folks a lot for their service!
No we owe them everything. !!!!!!
My dad was a B-24 nose gunner, a teenaged staff sergeant as was the rest of the gunners. Their pilot was 23 years old. They called him the "Old Man"
A lot of your video was filmed aboard the B-17 named “Memphis Bell.” I recognize the pilot in the left seat, his name is Robert Morgan of Asheville, North Carolina.
+ check timestamp 05:51, it's her in the background! :-)
This is the first video of yours I’ve watched - subscribing to help the cause. Thank you for the original, detailed, high quality content. I look forward to watching many more to catch up on what I’ve been missing
Thankyou!
Amazing story, very well told!
Very interesting story. Its very impressive that the two tail gunners did what they did with no flying experience! Sad ending though... those were horrible times, especially as an airmen aboard a 17, until the axis forces started to get knocked down your chances of survival weren’t good. My grandmas fiancé was a tail gunner on B17, he was KIA in March of 1943 on a return flight over the Netherlands. I believe he was based out of Deenenthorpe. She got his wings back and gave them to me 50 years later when I became a pilot.
Two tail gunners? How could they fit when its a tight fit for one.
It was the 2 waist gunners
So the pilot and co-pilot bailed out, leaving the rest of the crew to their fate? That doesn't sound like the behaviour one would expect of U.S. Army officers. Were they ever brought to account for abandoning their crewmates?
Yeah, they are going to stay in the fire in the cabin to burn to death. Sure.
They were literally burning alive, if they had stayed it would have added 2 extra uneseccary deaths.
That's really not an accurate assessment Simon. Bailing out was a well-rehearsed task during training, as there were so many portals from which to jump. No one was "left to jump". When he word came to "get out", training was expected to take over. Just as is today, in modern aircraft & ships.
Norman Lear was a radio operator/gunner on Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress bombers with the 772nd Bomb Squadron, 463rd Bomb Group of the Fifteenth Air Force. He flew in 52 combat missions and received the Air Medal with four oak leaf clusters.
That in-flight breakup footage at the start of the video is amazing
In likelihood the explosion happened when the leaking oxygen came in contact with oil or grease. Professional welders are well aware of this however you wouldn't expect it in a B-17.
Balls of steel to have never flown before, and take over and land a crippled plane.
This is good i will sub thank you for this Information
Thanks Vittie for explaining what is problem on b17. 🤝🏼👏👏👏👏👏
"Flying Coffins" Hermann Göring
Göring: But in the beginning, we had not fully assessed the possibility of daylight bombers. Our fighters could not cope with them. When we were able to do so, there was a pause and then you sent them out with fighter escort. The Flying Fortress, for example, had more than we had anticipated.
www.historynet.com/lost-prison-interview-with-hermann-goring-the-reichsmarschalls-revelations.htm
Every bomber in WW2 was a flying coffin.
The entire Luftwaffe “Flying coffins”
Not really
Both the 8th airforce and Bomber command should have had lots of Mosquitoes, ditched the four engine bombers except for special jobs requiring big bombs. Casualty figures would have been significantly reduced.
Im not 100% sure on this but I swear I heard or read that the flight engineer/top turret gunner was giving basic flight training so they could act as backup pilot in the case a pilot became a casualty.
My father was a navigator and provisos he to his training in that he was in flight school He wasn't learning fast enough for demand, so navigation for him. So there were a few who had the rudiments. Not sure about gunners, but the flight engineer probably had the same experience as my father.
@Rich G how extensive was his training? I remember where I heard it. I flew rc with and old guy who was a b29 pilot in ww2 who had told me about the gunners getting some training.
Another excellent video
Fascinating, sad about the loss of crew later
I used to run a message board for the mighty eighth Air Force museum in Savannah, in the late 1990s and early 2000s that accumulated a trove of fascinating info on the war. Unfortunately, most of those posts are gone now, but they did help connect thousands of families, veterans, and historians while active. I wish I had been able to collect and archive them all.
If you did it online check the Wayback Machine. Worth a try. Thanks for the work.
@@jimmccoy3489 i think i have a couple dozen floppy disks with a lot of the raw files, and have seen some of it on the way back machine. I had tried to provide the board data to the archive for WWII at penn state, but it never got put together. Thanks for the reply.
A lot of bomber crews trained the whole crew on flying the plane, for the very case where the 2 pilots were killed. This was unfortunately a far from uncommon occurrence...
excellent detective work....................
Great video 👍
Excellent video Sgt Vittie, mutch later in Apollo one astronauts death also was caused by an oxygen fed fire. That issue was resolved by changing the atmosphere in the cabin to nitrogen-oxygen mix.
Yes! This is the same problem. Just in a B-17
Thanks so much
Actually three tragically died in Apollo One, also one cosmonaut when the USSR experimented with the same concept - though that was in a test-bed on the ground and they ditched the idea straight after. The Apollo crew were actually on top of their rocket.
The reason they used pure oxygen is that it require fewer pressure vessels, hence less weight.
War thunder players: well.......it falls apart after taking 1×7.7mm to the wing tip
Yup. Exactly what happens. Every time
Pilot knocked out....
Excellent presentation
Good research.
Keep in mind that during WWII design safety was secondary to getting numbers cranked out. Volume became the absolute number one priority when building airplanes, ships, subs and other vital military equipment. Out of necessity to win the war sacrifices were made. Time saving shortcuts were and had to be taken. Sometime risks were evaluated and then taken. Speaking as the son of someone that designed critical submarine systems during that time I can tell you that what was deemed reasonable safety AT THE TIME had to be balanced with scaling production rapidly. Europe the Pacific and possibly even the US were at stake.
Remember, this was a time when cars didn't even have seat belts and no one thought anything about it.
That being said, a B-17 could also return to base with more damage than any airplane before or since.
Funny, military pilots always act like they're god's and then the mechanics landed the plane without any experience.
Apparently you misunderstood the video. It was the gunners not the mechanics who presumably piloted the plane.
The video is wrong - the pilots stayed in the plane and flew it home. It was the bombardier and navigator who bailed out.
warfarehistorynetwork.com/2019/01/03/on-a-wing-and-several-prayers-the-story-of-a-b-17-tailgunner/
Funny, the people who actually paid attention while watching the video completely understood why they bailed out. Their crew understood too.
@@wfiguy The top turret gunner was also the flight engineer who first completed the entire course of mechanic's training before going on to FE training.
Good vid bro
You made you goal, good show, many thanks.
Flight instructor: "Flying is a difficult skill only some will achieve and landing is the hardest of all!"
B17 Gunners: "Hold our beer!"
Seriously, damned impressed there chaps, you're doing a sterling job and earned yourself another sub!
Too bad the story is far from true. Although two crewmen did in fact bail out, they were not the pilots, but the navigator and bombardier.
@@johnfox3845 Really? I hate it when that happens!
This was one of many issues that were found on B17s and were fixed as they were found but being as this was wartime this was not an uncommon problem on massed produced aircraft. All Bombers, fighters, fighter bombers during WW2 that were mass produced all had their own flaws some were fatal others were livable but in the end it was more important to push production over safety. The prevailing thought of the time was we will find and fix on the run.
Frankly, air crews were expendable.
@@phlodel Sadly true. The critical thing is the attrition rate. If it is too high morale suffers and your air force disappears over the horizon never to return.
Never heard that story. Thank you. My father was a tail gunner stationed in England.
Good stuff 👍
B17 was a monster. Its amazing how much damage they could take and bring their crew home.
Full house became "full pants" once their B-17 collided with another one.
A rather puerile attempt at sick humour considering 20 brave men were in the process of dying a terrible death!
@@plodus8204 ok snowflake
Good vid. Thanks Flak Ally!
Any time!