Greetings from the Evergreen State. Thanks greatly for the vid on knots. It answers some key questions. I sail a relatively small boat (Drascombe Scaffie) rigged with a standing lug. Your improved soft shackles have proven to be very useful. Now using shackles from 1/4" material at two locations; connecting sail to downhaul at the tack and the clew to the main sheet. Saves the varnish on the mast compared to the ss hook and reduces the chances of crew injury from flying tackle at the stern. Discovered that 3/16 is easier to work with my diy rigging kit; soft wire push/pull fid (attach line with masking tape) and various parts of small diameter ball point pens. Shackles from 3/16" line also seem easier to open and close than the 1/4" stuff. Going to try a few at the reefing points on the sail instead of the ss carbine clips. Before spending money on dyneema, I practiced on cheap yellow 8-strand polypropylene. It is very easy to work with. Discovered that these shackles can be quite handy for water bottles, boat hooks, leaf blowers and other light duty uses. Also low cost gifts for outdoorsy friends. Hope useful. Fair winds & full sails, Ole
tried a waterbowline with the known yosemite finish which worked out well on a 3mm dyneema. funny that you are modify the waterbowline as well 👍 thanks!
I've had good success with normal knots in Dyneema. For knots that I won't be untying often I I simply load them slowly when I install them and they hold fine (for example the tack line for my mainsail reefing, I use a dyneema line instead of a hook). When I tie the dyneema tack line to the sail, I use a special knot because it will be loaded quickly as I crank the main halyard back into tension.
Knots work in Dyneema but only to a small fraction of the strength of the line before they slip. I don't recall the exact numbers and it will depend on the knot but as I recall it might be 10% of the line strength. I had one viewer DM me telling the story of using Dyneema on their mainsail halyard and having it slip out and drop the sail in the middle of a race. Using it for a reef line may be just fine as the load is not great and the risk is low should it slip out. I should have made the point that the knots in the video are almost impossible to untie so not what I would call "good" knots. Good knots are easy to tie, easy to remember, and easy to untie, and strong. There are no good knows for Dyneema.
You explain the why so well it really helps, question if you send a smaller dia of amst up the middle of a larger does the strength increase or decrease
Better to splice the stuff. Knots slip without the complexity that is shown in the video. When they start to slip, they get hot and the stuff melts and then it gets really slippery. But if you can't splice, it is great to know how to tie these knots.
Concur. I’m Not going to be able to tie those at night in the driving rain when I’m scared out of my mind. What’s the matter with a few turns around the object and three or four hitches?
Thank you. Be careful and test it out where you can't be hurt until you are sure you are tying it correctly. Inspect it. I am assuming this is for climbing. I am a sailor and not a climber (except for masts) so a bit out of my pay grade.
Why would you use dynema for an anchor? It has no stretch, which is necessary to avoid having shock loads that jerk your anchor out. I can see using it as a soft shackel, but the rode should be nylon.
Hello - Thanks for the excellent video. I'm looking for a hitch for the tail of a spanish burton (not for sailing in this instance although I am a sailor) to be used for 4x4 recovery. We use a Dyneema first part with the block spliced on. If a reliable hitch could be devised for the tail it would greatly speed up the winching process as the whole rig can be pulled back out from the vehicle once its double blocked. I've been thinking adapted Mooring Hitch or Lightermans Hitch. Hope this make sense. Thanks
I do not know if the hitches you suggest would work. You would have to test them. I guess with enough wraps, the Lighterman's hitch might just because if you make a knot complicated enough, it tends to hold. But I would ask about the Estar Hitch. I know that will hold although you would have to cut it to undo it. I suspect any knot that holds would have that property. The reason I say that has to do with why knots don't slip in Dyneema. Start with why they slip. They slip because the end is pulled through the knot until it unravels. The secret then it to make the knot hold the end very securely. That is what is going on in the Estar Hitch. The end is passed through the knot and the strength of the knot is basically the standard buntline hitch and the extra tuck of the end just keeps it from slipping so that the buntline can do its job. If you are evaluating a new knot, ask yourself what is holding the tail from slipping. Good luck with your quest but I would say use the Estar hitch unless you have a very good reason not to.
Have you tried tying knots in Vectran? It has a far higher melting point than Dyneema and feels much less slippery. (In fact it looks and feels a lot like hemp.) So I'm guessing that 'normal' knots would hold fairly well in Vectran. They appear to hold well, but I have not managed to find any information online about that, and I don't have any means of doing proper tests. I know that Vectran has fallen out of favour for most applications but I happen to have a whole spool of 2.5mm Vectran single braid and was hoping to use it for lashings and so on. I kind of like it. It's nice to handle.
Thank you for the information. I was wondering how to untie them when I saw you mention them as almost impossible to untie answering a comment. (If I got it right...) Could it be possible to untie if you make a roundturn when tucking the end in your bowline? Would a round turn solve that problem also for the rest of your knots. Thanks again, very interesting with a bit of "nerding" in some specific domains.
The nature of Dyneema is that it is very slippery. To hold, these knots basically take a normal knot and hold the tail in some way so it can't get pulled out making the knot fail. But the knot itself still slips which tightens it up with tremendous force. Basically, the knot slips down and grabs the tail so hard that the tail is held and can't slip out but that same property makes it better to untie it with a knife.
They do reduce the strength. I would have to go back to the Sailing Anarchy thread, which is linked on L-36.com, but I seem to recall they reduce it to 35-50%. I am really not sure. Consider that a good splice does not reduce the strength at all, you should only use knots if you have to. I think the slipping happened at 5% or something but again this was many years ago so I refer you to the data from the thread on SA that was basically a dialog between Evans Starzinger and myself. He did the testing.
I use LFS Marine in Bellingham Washington. They are very close to Samson Rope and have good prices or at least did before they became part of Go2Marine. But still 600 feet of 1/4 inch is $526 is pretty good. You might know better if you have been checking around. They have larger spools as well. Hope this helps and sorry to take so long to get back to you.
I can assure you that if you pull hard enough it will slip with Dyneema. I came up with three bends for Dyneema. I discuss them here l-36.com/no_slip_knot.php. Two are on that page and one is linked. The linked one breaks at just under 40% of line strength. To test these knots takes significant equipment and I was lucky enough to have access to that through the Estar Sailinganarchy thread. As with all Dyneema knots, it is always better to splice.
@@L-36 I think there is know debate that splicing is the way to go for Close to 100% strength. Every knot looses strength at the knot. But the goal is to not tie a knot that won’t easily untie after load. I have thousands worth in rope and the goal is to never cut your line. Use something that can hold the load safely and untie after load has been applied. I see a double fisherman’s knot is for sure one of the go-to knots but after extreme loads it will seize that line and no way to easily untie it. What I’m saying is use a zeppelin bend with plenty of tail in both sides and use a double fisherman variation for insurance if it does slip. That way after load it can be untied easily. I am a knot geek for sure and I would be happy to go into more depth.
@@gregthompson8062 It has been a number of years and I can't specifically recall but I say in the writeup that you put a spike in the center and then remove the tails and at that point it is easy to untie. I have no reason to doubt what I said :-) I do recall that even though the other version was slightly stronger, this is the one I decided was the best. The rest were borderline party trick to get a couple of percent of strength with a lot more complexity.
I have not tried every knot but it is a safe bet you are correct. Unless the knot does something to grab the tail with the full force of the knot it is probably going to slip. I will note that a "good knot" will hold well and be easy to untie. These knots are not "good knots" They do not slip but I have always found that a knife is the only way to release them. Splicing is better but if you need a knot, like you need to secure it in a hurry or cannot afford the space of a splice, these knots can be very useful.
Hi Allen, long time no 'see'. Still racing your Lapworth 36? I don't know what happened to our Cal Boat Group, I know we were talking about a new site, then, 'Poof!'. I found your You Tube site after looking for information on making a superior knot in Amsteel after losing our mains'l halyard due to the failure of a bowline holding it to a shackle that attaches to the head of the sail. A few minutes after we crossed the starting line in a 23 mile race, one of our crew noticed that it appeared our mains'l should be up a bit higher on the mast groove, put five wraps on the winch and started cranking on it with all his might, then down crashed the boom bringing the sail with it, into the cockpit. At first we thought the line had snapped, but there was nothing on the shackle which was still attached to the head grommet. That was the end of the race for us, as the halyard runs inside the mast, and being less than a 7/8ths rig, the only way to rethread the line is to lower the mast back at the dock. We'll do that this weekend and be ready to rock and roll the following week. After sailing home under Genoa we docked, and pulled the halyard out of the mast and found no damage to the line other than the frayed and flattened end. I'll try one of your knots or attempt to make an end loop splice. I'm really enjoying my "new" racing Cal 24, winning lots of races with her, "Gran dIllusion" last year. Hopefully, my body will hold up for one more year of fun. Take care! Jerry
Good the hear from you. Sorry to hear about your experience with the slippery Amsteel. Most knots slip with Amsteel. The ones here do not but I must caution you that they are also almost impossible to untie once force has been put on them. To attach Amsteel to a shackle you should splice it. It is real easy. There are instructions many places including my website, L-36.com. Good luck.
Someone on the IGKT forum claims that the Angler's loop knot is the only knot (with its derivatives) that works reliable [100% of the time] in extremely slippery rope like Dyneema. Normally, to untie the knot, one has to try to push the horizontal part of the rope at the loop over the loop; (loop is up). If that is too stiff: would the following work? To tuck the working end, after one has finished the knot, under this horizontal part of the rope between the parts of the loop. If one wants to untie the knot, one pulls the end out again, so that the loop has more space, more freedom, so that the horizontal part can be easily pushed over the loop, and the knot can be easily untied. My question is: is there a danger that this method makes the Angler's loop knot slip more easily if heavily loaded? What so you think?
I have not tested an Angler's loop and can't tell from looking at the instructions if it would slip or not. the tail is held at two places so it might hold. Most traditional knots I tried slipped. The basic idea with all the knots I presented is that they start with a good knot and then take the tail and tuck it somewhere that will hold it. At that point there is not a lot of force on the tail and it keeps the knot from slipping. The other thing in common is that if you put anything near the maximum load on them it is virtually impossible to untie them. My guess is that would be the case with what you are suggesting but you would have to try it.
I didn't mention it in the video but when knots slip in Dyneema they do so under huge forces. These forces and the slipping creates a lot of heat. That heat melts the Dyneema and makes like a lubricant that makes it slip even more. In my testing, I had a knot burst into flames as it broke. More like a little flash as it went out instantly but it was impressive. Not clear if the knot would survive getting to your stopper knot.
The slipping problem of Dyneema is a concern to me because I don't want to use special knots. The polyester ropes with a Dyneema core out there, do they solve this problem?
A quality double braid with a Dyneema core should not slip and work just fine with normal knots. Strongest is still splicing but high tech ropes like Warpspeed are great.
I dont know know if you will see this but would it be possible/recommended to tie the estar stopper knot on a bight so that you are left with a loop so that a soft shackle could be made?
@@L-36 i think im already overcomplicating it and i think im just going to do a stopper loop, but its was just an idea i had for making quick soft shackles in the field with my 3mm dyneema cord. I dont know much about knots and ropes so i will sound stupid. I want to create a quick soft shackle similar to stopper loop which then i could take the closed loop end and larks head it around the stopper knot to “close” the soft shackle. So i was thinking if i took a bight and then tied an estar stopper i would be left with this stopper knot and a closed loop. I could then larks head the closed loop around the stopper knot (in this case the estar knot) to close the soft shackle. I figure if i had the opportunity to ask someone who knows about this stuff why wouldnt i take the opportunity to ask. I think Im overcomplicating it and might go with a stopped loop
@@gamma8gear I think I understand. You take a section of line and fold it in half. Then you tie a stopper knot near the two ends. Now you go to the loop end (the middle of the original line) and use a larks head and pass it over the stopper knot. I have no idea how strong that would be but it is a very interesting idea. Do I have it right?
@@gamma8gear What I would like to try is making one up and then making a more traditional one and looping them. Then pull until one breaks and see which one it is and if this one, where it breaks. I think it might be stronger than a standard soft shackle. The reason I say that is that the weak point on a standard soft shackle is right where the line goes into the button knot. In the case of what you are talking about, the load is not as concentrated because of the larks head. It is also a hell of a lot easier to make. I definitely think it worth testing.
This is great!! Clearly presented, well explained, a real contribution! Thank you! Have you tested all of these these to 40--50% of line strength? I'm confused about safe bend radius for Amsteel. I thought I understood why low-stretch line would weaken around sharp bends---some of the strands would remain unloaded. I thought this was the general problem with knots. And I've seen recommendations that Amsteel bend radius should be at least 3x rope radius---or diameter!---and sometimes more. But you seem to imply otherwise here. Furthermore, I thought Samson had tested splices with the loop around a pin of the same diameter as the rope and found basically full strength (although the portion doubled for the loop sees only half the load, so perhaps this is irrelevant...). And they'd said that an eye-splice-to-eye-splice rope join preserved 90% of rope strength (same caveat). So can Amsteel handle a bend around itself, such as that in knots or at least hitches, somewhat gracefully after all? If that's true, if you add enough Gordian-ness, is it possible to make a knot (say, a bend, to avoid the confound that portions of a hitch only see half the load) that will hold close to full rope strength? And if not, I'm thinking about a bend in which the incoming load path wraps first around a larger curve made up of >1 loops of the rope to improve bend radius, saving the binding part for a more lightly loaded portion of the knot... to some extent that's what your Espar modifications appear to do. Was that the intention? It could be taken further, but would probably be a big ugly mess and perhaps of theoretical interest only... :)
All of my personal testing has been one knot against another in small line. However, there is a thread on SailingAnarchy where another user and I developed these knows and he had a full up test setup. You can find a link to that thread on my website L-36.com. Basically, a knot in Amsteel is doing really well if it is in the the 40-50% range. In terms of bending radius, the 1x bend is 50% but there are two strands if this is an eye splice so you get 100%. l-36.com/static_bend.php. What I worry about more is that a lot of time I am going around rope and I worry about the small diameter of the Amsteel cutting the normal yacht braid. I should point out that while these knows are good to know and useful in some situations, it is always better to use a splice.
PS. I think you edited the post while I was replying. I will add that the intension of most of these knots including the Estar is to grab the tail so the know won't slip. You might have to think about that statement a bit but the point is these knots are strong if they don't slip so the trick on all these is to figure out how to keep them from slipping.
@@marcjoseph8300 Use some rigging wire and bend it in half. You will need maybe a yard of rigging wire folded in half so finished 18 inches. Make a loop handle on the sharp ends so you can pull with it. Thread the wire through the Dyneema from where the splice ends (about 20 inches up the line) to where you want the loop (about 10 inches toward the loop). Allow about 25% for the shrinkage you get on the line when it is doubled. Basically, the buried part is 3 fid lengths and the taper starts one fid lengths. A "fid" is 21 diameters. The basic is about 8 inches will be buried. Then allow for your eye, and then go back 11 inches and insert the wire there and thread it to where the other end of the eye will be. Then cut back half the strands on the end of the line for about a two and a half inches. That will be part of your taper (1 fid length). Thread it through the loop in the rigging wire half way (about an inch) so that when you fold it over, it will be the same thickness as the rest of the line. Then pull it through, cut the end at 45 degrees, and lock stitch it at the splice. Hope this is clear. Let me know if it is not.
It has been too long since I did all the testing on these knots but I am pretty sure we tested that and it slipped. Have you tested it? A lot of good knots just slip out at like 20% of line strength. That isn't nothing as this line is very strong but you really need to be careful using knots that have not been proven not to slip with Dyneema.
Funny, now there is this magic material "Dyneema", but none of the conventional knots work anymore 😞Nice try my friend to add friction by adding more and more loops, but doesn't it defeat the purpose of sailing knots? Unless you can quickly tie and untie them, how can they be useful? I am trying the compromise using covered Dyneema, the outer shell is conventional and should follow the respective laws of friction. but here a question: I am preparing my dyneema tramp for my trimaran. Do you have any recommendations about whipping a thin dyneema line attaching the perimeter line to the net? Greetings Sam
You untie these knots with a knife. If you want to make something removable in Dyneema, use some variation of a soft shackle. There are many for many applications on L-36.com. I recommend using a splice but there are times and situations when you need a knot and that is what these are for. You don't have enough details for my understanding for me to answer your question. I sometimes just use 20 half hitches around a line to secure low force applications like you might be talking about. You can untie thoes.
@@L-36 wow, that is a quick reply indeed, thank you. I will look around first, as I can't paste pictures here it is a bit difficult to describe. I might come back later. Greetings
It looks like youtube automatically divided this up into chapters and added them to the description section. But the AI seems to have used the wrong names. "Modified Water Balloon," "Carrot Knot", and "Yester Stopper." Maybe you might want to delete that or fix it. It also missed the Estar Knot (bend).
I wonder if anyone has experimented with sliding Dyneema inside a short length (enough for a knot) of braided rope made of another fiber. Not only to maybe reduce slipping but also slightly increase the extremely tight radius’s (radii ?) inherent in knots. I think this might be worth a series of testing as some types of braided fiber might be very unfriendly under pressure to the very fine Dyneema while others might not hurt it. Maybe a ridiculous idea...maybe (k)not.🥴
Lots of high tech lines are made this way. Actually pretty common so not crazy at all. One I like is Warp Speed. Now specifically if it would work on a short section just for the know I don't know but I doubt it. As I said, if you are going to take time to do things, splice it. If you are faced with an emergency or unusual situation, use the knots in this video. I am unsure if I said it but these knots are almost impossible to untie once put under load.
Appreciate your effort. I need to tie the estar bend. I found it very difficult to follow and see how to do it. Describing how to tie a knot using the names of other knots is confusing. A much slower step by step process that I can see as you describe might do it.
I suggest you watch my "Nine Knots for Sailors" video. That said, I agree that it is much easier to tie an estar bend if you know how to the a buntline hitch.
@@L-36 Thank you for the informative video. @daveh8995 is (I think) having the same issue as me.. that your hand is in front of the work at certain critical points (such as when you feed the end back through the Estar knot) which makes it hard (and potentially error prone) to follow
![[How to] Dyneema Eye Splice | Sailing Wisdom](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UpkqJ4GRfSg/mqdefault.jpg)
![[How to] Dyneema Eye Splice | Sailing Wisdom](/img/tr.png)
Very informative. Thank you for posting.
You are welcome. Thanks for the comment.
Greetings from the Evergreen State. Thanks greatly for the vid on knots. It answers some key questions. I sail a relatively small boat (Drascombe Scaffie) rigged with a standing lug. Your improved soft shackles have proven to be very useful. Now using shackles from 1/4" material at two locations; connecting sail to downhaul at the tack and the clew to the main sheet. Saves the varnish on the mast compared to the ss hook and reduces the chances of crew injury from flying tackle at the stern. Discovered that 3/16 is easier to work with my diy rigging kit; soft wire push/pull fid (attach line with masking tape) and various parts of small diameter ball point pens. Shackles from 3/16" line also seem easier to open and close than the 1/4" stuff. Going to try a few at the reefing points on the sail instead of the ss carbine clips. Before spending money on dyneema, I practiced on cheap yellow 8-strand polypropylene. It is very easy to work with. Discovered that these shackles can be quite handy for water bottles, boat hooks, leaf blowers and other light duty uses. Also low cost gifts for outdoorsy friends. Hope useful. Fair winds & full sails, Ole
Thank you for the kind comment.
Hey Allen, spot on your clip. Very useful. keep up
Thank you. glad you enjoyed it.
I'm so glad I found your channel, that was very interesting, thank you. I'll need to check out your other stuff. Kind regards from Scotland.
Thanks for the comment and I am glad you enjoyed the video.
tried a waterbowline with the known yosemite finish which worked out well on a 3mm dyneema. funny that you are modify the waterbowline as well 👍 thanks!
I've had good success with normal knots in Dyneema. For knots that I won't be untying often I I simply load them slowly when I install them and they hold fine (for example the tack line for my mainsail reefing, I use a dyneema line instead of a hook). When I tie the dyneema tack line to the sail, I use a special knot because it will be loaded quickly as I crank the main halyard back into tension.
Knots work in Dyneema but only to a small fraction of the strength of the line before they slip. I don't recall the exact numbers and it will depend on the knot but as I recall it might be 10% of the line strength. I had one viewer DM me telling the story of using Dyneema on their mainsail halyard and having it slip out and drop the sail in the middle of a race. Using it for a reef line may be just fine as the load is not great and the risk is low should it slip out. I should have made the point that the knots in the video are almost impossible to untie so not what I would call "good" knots. Good knots are easy to tie, easy to remember, and easy to untie, and strong. There are no good knows for Dyneema.
The carrot knot @3:47 is the knot i was looking for, thanks
'Carrick'?
Thank you 😊
You are welcome.
You explain the why so well it really helps, question if you send a smaller dia of amst up the middle of a larger does the strength increase or decrease
Outstanding im just learning dynema what an amazing grizzly of a line
Thanks for the comment
This man living his live
thx Allen
Any time 🙂
Dude...great video!!
And that 3rd one, that "reverse-carrick-zeppelin-bend hybrid" didn't see that coming knot!! haha damn nice work
Thank you. I worked hard to come up with a bend that would work. After many tries, I decided the first one I did was the best, thus the name 1st bend.
@@L-36 Well, let me be the first to say, it's now known as the "Allen Bend"
There. let the history books show it!! haha
@@69adrummer +1
Thank you
You are welcome.
Those are so complicated, my head hurts!
Better to splice the stuff. Knots slip without the complexity that is shown in the video. When they start to slip, they get hot and the stuff melts and then it gets really slippery. But if you can't splice, it is great to know how to tie these knots.
Concur. I’m
Not going to be able to tie those at night in the driving rain when I’m scared out of my mind. What’s the matter with a few turns around the object and three or four hitches?
This 1st bend you created is awesome. I think it will be useful for anchor building with 1/4" dyneema. I'll let you know how it goes.
Thank you. Be careful and test it out where you can't be hurt until you are sure you are tying it correctly. Inspect it. I am assuming this is for climbing. I am a sailor and not a climber (except for masts) so a bit out of my pay grade.
You good bro?
Why would you use dynema for an anchor? It has no stretch, which is necessary to avoid having shock loads that jerk your anchor out.
I can see using it as a soft shackel, but the rode should be nylon.
Hello - Thanks for the excellent video. I'm looking for a hitch for the tail of a spanish burton (not for sailing in this instance although I am a sailor) to be used for 4x4 recovery. We use a Dyneema first part with the block spliced on. If a reliable hitch could be devised for the tail it would greatly speed up the winching process as the whole rig can be pulled back out from the vehicle once its double blocked. I've been thinking adapted Mooring Hitch or Lightermans Hitch. Hope this make sense. Thanks
I do not know if the hitches you suggest would work. You would have to test them. I guess with enough wraps, the Lighterman's hitch might just because if you make a knot complicated enough, it tends to hold. But I would ask about the Estar Hitch. I know that will hold although you would have to cut it to undo it. I suspect any knot that holds would have that property. The reason I say that has to do with why knots don't slip in Dyneema. Start with why they slip. They slip because the end is pulled through the knot until it unravels. The secret then it to make the knot hold the end very securely. That is what is going on in the Estar Hitch. The end is passed through the knot and the strength of the knot is basically the standard buntline hitch and the extra tuck of the end just keeps it from slipping so that the buntline can do its job. If you are evaluating a new knot, ask yourself what is holding the tail from slipping. Good luck with your quest but I would say use the Estar hitch unless you have a very good reason not to.
@@L-36 Thanks for your most prompt reply - appreciated
Have you tried tying knots in Vectran? It has a far higher melting point than Dyneema and feels much less slippery. (In fact it looks and feels a lot like hemp.) So I'm guessing that 'normal' knots would hold fairly well in Vectran. They appear to hold well, but I have not managed to find any information online about that, and I don't have any means of doing proper tests. I know that Vectran has fallen out of favour for most applications but I happen to have a whole spool of 2.5mm Vectran single braid and was hoping to use it for lashings and so on. I kind of like it. It's nice to handle.
I have not. Sorry.
Thank you for the information. I was wondering how to untie them when I saw you mention them as almost impossible to untie answering a comment. (If I got it right...)
Could it be possible to untie if you make a roundturn when tucking the end in your bowline? Would a round turn solve that problem also for the rest of your knots.
Thanks again, very interesting with a bit of "nerding" in some specific domains.
The nature of Dyneema is that it is very slippery. To hold, these knots basically take a normal knot and hold the tail in some way so it can't get pulled out making the knot fail. But the knot itself still slips which tightens it up with tremendous force. Basically, the knot slips down and grabs the tail so hard that the tail is held and can't slip out but that same property makes it better to untie it with a knife.
Have you experimented with any common fishing line knots such as the palamar or uni knot just curious
The only fishing knot I have tried called fisherman knots. There was a double and a triple. They slip.
How do these knots influence the strength? You mention slipping, do they also preserve strength to the lines?
Thank you for sharing these knots!
They do reduce the strength. I would have to go back to the Sailing Anarchy thread, which is linked on L-36.com, but I seem to recall they reduce it to 35-50%. I am really not sure. Consider that a good splice does not reduce the strength at all, you should only use knots if you have to. I think the slipping happened at 5% or something but again this was many years ago so I refer you to the data from the thread on SA that was basically a dialog between Evans Starzinger and myself. He did the testing.
I’m a rock climber surprised how much we have in common with sailors, I’d say the first rock climbers (to use protection) were sailors
Sailors, rock climbers, and arborist all are very close to their ropes.
I am wondering about rigging lifelines by puting allthread in the holes with nuts & puting clove hitches around the stansions . Will that work ?
Can you post a link to a good supplier where I can order dyneema by the spool in various diameters? Thanks.
I use LFS Marine in Bellingham Washington. They are very close to Samson Rope and have good prices or at least did before they became part of Go2Marine. But still 600 feet of 1/4 inch is $526 is pretty good. You might know better if you have been checking around. They have larger spools as well. Hope this helps and sorry to take so long to get back to you.
Zeppelin bend is my favorite bend. Won’t slip and if you wanted extra safety ad an end 2 half hitches
I can assure you that if you pull hard enough it will slip with Dyneema. I came up with three bends for Dyneema. I discuss them here l-36.com/no_slip_knot.php. Two are on that page and one is linked. The linked one breaks at just under 40% of line strength. To test these knots takes significant equipment and I was lucky enough to have access to that through the Estar Sailinganarchy thread. As with all Dyneema knots, it is always better to splice.
@@L-36 I think there is know debate that splicing is the way to go for
Close to 100% strength. Every knot looses strength at the knot. But the goal is to not tie a knot that won’t easily untie after load. I have thousands worth in rope and the goal is to never cut your line. Use something that can hold the load safely and untie after load has been applied. I see a double fisherman’s knot is for sure one of the go-to knots but after extreme loads it will seize that line and no way to easily untie it. What I’m saying is use a zeppelin bend with plenty of tail in both sides and use a double fisherman variation for insurance if it does slip. That way after load it can be untied easily. I am a knot geek for sure and I would be happy to go into more depth.
@@gregthompson8062 Try the knot I call The First Bend. It can be untied and is stronger than a triple fisherman's. l-36.com/no_slip_knot.php
@@L-36 Thanks for the link. I did take a look and has unique dressed look to it. Have you loaded it with it being easy to untie?
@@gregthompson8062 It has been a number of years and I can't specifically recall but I say in the writeup that you put a spike in the center and then remove the tails and at that point it is easy to untie. I have no reason to doubt what I said :-) I do recall that even though the other version was slightly stronger, this is the one I decided was the best. The rest were borderline party trick to get a couple of percent of strength with a lot more complexity.
I'm guessing a taught line, or perhaps a farrimond friction hitch wouldn't be ideal?
I have not tried every knot but it is a safe bet you are correct. Unless the knot does something to grab the tail with the full force of the knot it is probably going to slip. I will note that a "good knot" will hold well and be easy to untie. These knots are not "good knots" They do not slip but I have always found that a knife is the only way to release them. Splicing is better but if you need a knot, like you need to secure it in a hurry or cannot afford the space of a splice, these knots can be very useful.
Hi Allen, long time no 'see'. Still racing your Lapworth 36? I don't know what happened to our Cal Boat Group, I know we were talking about a new site, then, 'Poof!'. I found your You Tube site after looking for information on making a superior knot in Amsteel after losing our mains'l halyard due to the failure of a bowline holding it to a shackle that attaches to the head of the sail. A few minutes after we crossed the starting line in a 23 mile race, one of our crew noticed that it appeared our mains'l should be up a bit higher on the mast groove, put five wraps on the winch and started cranking on it with all his might, then down crashed the boom bringing the sail with it, into the cockpit. At first we thought the line had snapped, but there was nothing on the shackle which was still attached to the head grommet. That was the end of the race for us, as the halyard runs inside the mast, and being less than a 7/8ths rig, the only way to rethread the line is to lower the mast back at the dock. We'll do that this weekend and be ready to rock and roll the following week. After sailing home under Genoa we docked, and pulled the halyard out of the mast and found no damage to the line other than the frayed and flattened end. I'll try one of your knots or attempt to make an end loop splice. I'm really enjoying my "new" racing Cal 24, winning lots of races with her, "Gran dIllusion" last year. Hopefully, my body will hold up for one more year of fun. Take care! Jerry
Good the hear from you. Sorry to hear about your experience with the slippery Amsteel. Most knots slip with Amsteel. The ones here do not but I must caution you that they are also almost impossible to untie once force has been put on them. To attach Amsteel to a shackle you should splice it. It is real easy. There are instructions many places including my website, L-36.com. Good luck.
Someone on the IGKT forum claims that the Angler's loop knot is the only knot (with its derivatives) that works reliable [100% of the time] in extremely slippery rope like Dyneema. Normally, to untie the knot, one has to try to push the horizontal part of the rope at the loop over the loop; (loop is up). If that is too stiff: would the following work? To tuck the working end, after one has finished the knot, under this horizontal part of the rope between the parts of the loop. If one wants to untie the knot, one pulls the end out again, so that the loop has more space, more freedom, so that the horizontal part can be easily pushed over the loop, and the knot can be easily untied. My question is: is there a danger that this method makes the Angler's loop knot slip more easily if heavily loaded? What so you think?
I have not tested an Angler's loop and can't tell from looking at the instructions if it would slip or not. the tail is held at two places so it might hold. Most traditional knots I tried slipped. The basic idea with all the knots I presented is that they start with a good knot and then take the tail and tuck it somewhere that will hold it. At that point there is not a lot of force on the tail and it keeps the knot from slipping. The other thing in common is that if you put anything near the maximum load on them it is virtually impossible to untie them. My guess is that would be the case with what you are suggesting but you would have to try it.
What if you just have a stopper knot on the end. Than, any regular knot won't slip.?
I didn't mention it in the video but when knots slip in Dyneema they do so under huge forces. These forces and the slipping creates a lot of heat. That heat melts the Dyneema and makes like a lubricant that makes it slip even more. In my testing, I had a knot burst into flames as it broke. More like a little flash as it went out instantly but it was impressive. Not clear if the knot would survive getting to your stopper knot.
The slipping problem of Dyneema is a concern to me because I don't want to use special knots. The polyester ropes with a Dyneema core out there, do they solve this problem?
A quality double braid with a Dyneema core should not slip and work just fine with normal knots. Strongest is still splicing but high tech ropes like Warpspeed are great.
I dont know know if you will see this but would it be possible/recommended to tie the estar stopper knot on a bight so that you are left with a loop so that a soft shackle could be made?
I see your comment but I don't understand what you are trying to do.
@@L-36 i think im already overcomplicating it and i think im just going to do a stopper loop, but its was just an idea i had for making quick soft shackles in the field with my 3mm dyneema cord. I dont know much about knots and ropes so i will sound stupid.
I want to create a quick soft shackle similar to stopper loop which then i could take the closed loop end and larks head it around the stopper knot to “close” the soft shackle. So i was thinking if i took a bight and then tied an estar stopper i would be left with this stopper knot and a closed loop. I could then larks head the closed loop around the stopper knot (in this case the estar knot) to close the soft shackle.
I figure if i had the opportunity to ask someone who knows about this stuff why wouldnt i take the opportunity to ask. I think Im overcomplicating it and might go with a stopped loop
@@gamma8gear I think I understand. You take a section of line and fold it in half. Then you tie a stopper knot near the two ends. Now you go to the loop end (the middle of the original line) and use a larks head and pass it over the stopper knot. I have no idea how strong that would be but it is a very interesting idea. Do I have it right?
@@L-36 yes thats it. Ill be doing a unscientific test to see if the knot slips
@@gamma8gear What I would like to try is making one up and then making a more traditional one and looping them. Then pull until one breaks and see which one it is and if this one, where it breaks. I think it might be stronger than a standard soft shackle. The reason I say that is that the weak point on a standard soft shackle is right where the line goes into the button knot. In the case of what you are talking about, the load is not as concentrated because of the larks head. It is also a hell of a lot easier to make. I definitely think it worth testing.
This is great!! Clearly presented, well explained, a real contribution! Thank you!
Have you tested all of these these to 40--50% of line strength?
I'm confused about safe bend radius for Amsteel. I thought I understood why low-stretch line would weaken around sharp bends---some of the strands would remain unloaded. I thought this was the general problem with knots. And I've seen recommendations that Amsteel bend radius should be at least 3x rope radius---or diameter!---and sometimes more. But you seem to imply otherwise here. Furthermore, I thought Samson had tested splices with the loop around a pin of the same diameter as the rope and found basically full strength (although the portion doubled for the loop sees only half the load, so perhaps this is irrelevant...). And they'd said that an eye-splice-to-eye-splice rope join preserved 90% of rope strength (same caveat). So can Amsteel handle a bend around itself, such as that in knots or at least hitches, somewhat gracefully after all?
If that's true, if you add enough Gordian-ness, is it possible to make a knot (say, a bend, to avoid the confound that portions of a hitch only see half the load) that will hold close to full rope strength?
And if not, I'm thinking about a bend in which the incoming load path wraps first around a larger curve made up of >1 loops of the rope to improve bend radius, saving the binding part for a more lightly loaded portion of the knot... to some extent that's what your Espar modifications appear to do. Was that the intention? It could be taken further, but would probably be a big ugly mess and perhaps of theoretical interest only... :)
All of my personal testing has been one knot against another in small line. However, there is a thread on SailingAnarchy where another user and I developed these knows and he had a full up test setup. You can find a link to that thread on my website L-36.com. Basically, a knot in Amsteel is doing really well if it is in the the 40-50% range. In terms of bending radius, the 1x bend is 50% but there are two strands if this is an eye splice so you get 100%. l-36.com/static_bend.php. What I worry about more is that a lot of time I am going around rope and I worry about the small diameter of the Amsteel cutting the normal yacht braid.
I should point out that while these knows are good to know and useful in some situations, it is always better to use a splice.
PS. I think you edited the post while I was replying. I will add that the intension of most of these knots including the Estar is to grab the tail so the know won't slip. You might have to think about that statement a bit but the point is these knots are strong if they don't slip so the trick on all these is to figure out how to keep them from slipping.
This is new to me. Can a make an eye splice at each end of a rope and how? Thanks!
Yes, splicing in Dyneema is much better than knots. It is stronger and easier to do. May I suggest my splicing reference page L-36.com/splice.php
@@L-36 Wow thanks
@@L-36 What fid to use? I have a 1/8 dyneema rope
@@marcjoseph8300 Use some rigging wire and bend it in half. You will need maybe a yard of rigging wire folded in half so finished 18 inches. Make a loop handle on the sharp ends so you can pull with it. Thread the wire through the Dyneema from where the splice ends (about 20 inches up the line) to where you want the loop (about 10 inches toward the loop). Allow about 25% for the shrinkage you get on the line when it is doubled. Basically, the buried part is 3 fid lengths and the taper starts one fid lengths. A "fid" is 21 diameters. The basic is about 8 inches will be buried. Then allow for your eye, and then go back 11 inches and insert the wire there and thread it to where the other end of the eye will be. Then cut back half the strands on the end of the line for about a two and a half inches. That will be part of your taper (1 fid length). Thread it through the loop in the rigging wire half way (about an inch) so that when you fold it over, it will be the same thickness as the rest of the line. Then pull it through, cut the end at 45 degrees, and lock stitch it at the splice. Hope this is clear. Let me know if it is not.
@@L-36 I just found a video for one at both end czcams.com/video/4_wrSPQ0jDA/video.html
No figure eight knot? It would hold and wont untie, although retain only 40% of rope strenght, but so probanly all other knots.
It has been too long since I did all the testing on these knots but I am pretty sure we tested that and it slipped. Have you tested it? A lot of good knots just slip out at like 20% of line strength. That isn't nothing as this line is very strong but you really need to be careful using knots that have not been proven not to slip with Dyneema.
Funny, now there is this magic material "Dyneema", but none of the conventional knots work anymore 😞Nice try my friend to add friction by adding more and more loops, but doesn't it defeat the purpose of sailing knots? Unless you can quickly tie and untie them, how can they be useful?
I am trying the compromise using covered Dyneema, the outer shell is conventional and should follow the respective laws of friction.
but here a question: I am preparing my dyneema tramp for my trimaran. Do you have any recommendations about whipping a thin dyneema line attaching the perimeter line to the net?
Greetings Sam
You untie these knots with a knife. If you want to make something removable in Dyneema, use some variation of a soft shackle. There are many for many applications on
L-36.com. I recommend using a splice but there are times and situations when you need a knot and that is what these are for. You don't have enough details for my understanding for me to answer your question. I sometimes just use 20 half hitches around a line to secure low force applications like you might be talking about. You can untie thoes.
@@L-36 wow, that is a quick reply indeed, thank you.
I will look around first, as I can't paste pictures here it is a bit difficult to describe. I might come back later.
Greetings
@@SamuelLanghorn You can upload a picture to Google Photo and post a link here. Like this. photos.app.goo.gl/ZtJtBrX2AyVZPSM37
@@L-36 Hi Allen, I tried, but somehow only saw you blue dyneema loop there, I left a message. Let's switch to email.
@@SamuelLanghorn I was just demonstrating how to upload a picture. Nothing special about the one I linked. You can contact me off my website.
It looks like youtube automatically divided this up into chapters and added them to the description section. But the AI seems to have used the wrong names. "Modified Water Balloon," "Carrot Knot", and "Yester Stopper." Maybe you might want to delete that or fix it. It also missed the Estar Knot (bend).
That is hilarious. It is nice of them to try. I don't see anything I can do about it though. Thanks so much for pointing this out. Made my day.
I wonder if anyone has experimented with sliding Dyneema inside a short length (enough for a knot) of braided rope made of another fiber. Not only to maybe reduce slipping but also slightly increase the extremely tight radius’s (radii ?) inherent in knots.
I think this might be worth a series of testing as some types of braided fiber might be very unfriendly under pressure to the very fine Dyneema while others might not hurt it.
Maybe a ridiculous idea...maybe (k)not.🥴
Lots of high tech lines are made this way. Actually pretty common so not crazy at all. One I like is Warp Speed. Now specifically if it would work on a short section just for the know I don't know but I doubt it. As I said, if you are going to take time to do things, splice it. If you are faced with an emergency or unusual situation, use the knots in this video. I am unsure if I said it but these knots are almost impossible to untie once put under load.
Dress, and setting the line when rigging is important to keep a line set.
Isn't that what sailing lines that have a dynema core with a dacron cover are all about?
@@seekerstan
Yep, even 3 years ago when I posted that thought, I was unaware they existed. Now I guess there’s a variety to choose from. 🤜🤛
For more information visit L-36.com
Appreciate your effort. I need to tie the estar bend. I found it very difficult to follow and see how to do it. Describing how to tie a knot using the names of other knots is confusing. A much slower step by step process that I can see as you describe might do it.
I suggest you watch my "Nine Knots for Sailors" video. That said, I agree that it is much easier to tie an estar bend if you know how to the a buntline hitch.
@@L-36 Thank you for the informative video. @daveh8995 is (I think) having the same issue as me.. that your hand is in front of the work at certain critical points (such as when you feed the end back through the Estar knot) which makes it hard (and potentially error prone) to follow
Just take the tail and put it back parallel to the main line. Sorry for that not being clear from the video.
Thank you for the speedy reply
@@speedintraffic My pleasure. Feel free to ask if you have any other questions.
Good information but tied the knots way too fast to follow.
Maybe watch it again...