Was the most innovative submarine design of WWII successful? The German Type XXI submarine
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- Join me in a WWII submarine video where I will present a review of the performance of the German WWII type XXI submarine.
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
1:20 WWII tactics
3:02 Enter the type XXI
4:53 Design specifications
6:10 How did the type XXI actually perform?
8:39 Consequences
10:24 Epilogue
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» CREDITS
Video : US National Archives : "GUPPY" SUBMARINE FOOTAGE, Local ID: 428-NPC-8327
Video : US National Archives : CONVOY IN NORTH ATLANTIC, Local ID: 428-NPC-16459
Video : US National Archives : GERMAN SUBMARINE IN ACTION, NORTH ATLANTIC, Local ID: 428-NPC-16795
Video : US National Archives : GERMAN SUBMARINE IN ACTION, NORTH ATLANTIC, Local ID: 428-NPC-16796
Images : Several images are used courtesy of the Naval History & Heritage Command : www.history.navy.mil
Book : David Miller, "U-boats, The illustrated history of the raiders of the deep"
Book : Fritz Köhl & Eberhard Rössler, "The type XXI U-boat"
Book : Klaus Mattes, "U-boot Wilhelm Bauer ex U2540"
Publication : Tim D. Lyon, Military Historical Society of Australia, ACT Branch : "The Battle of the Atlantic,Part Five"
Publication : The US Navy Design study of the type XXI : www.uboatarchive.net/Design/De...
Website : www.uboat.net
Website : rnsubs.co.uk/articles/developm...
Website : ww2.dsm.museum/DSA/DSA23_2000...
Website : www.mhsa.org.au/
By Source (WP:NFCC#4), Fair use, en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...
By Source (WP:NFCC#4), Fair use, en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...
CZcams Creative Commons, Wiki Commons, Google Commons, Bundesarchiv Commons
Music : Epidemic Sound
Channel art & logo : www.dmansir.dk/
» NOTICE
Some images may be used for illustrative purposes only - always reflecting the accurate time frame and content. Events of factual error / mispronounced word/spelling mistakes - retractions will be published in this section.
#submarine #innovation #submarines #history #ww2 #uboat - Věda a technologie
As a U.S. submarine veteran, I think this was a very interesting video . . . . While I had some knowledge of the German Types VII & IX U-boats, I knew nothing of the Type XXI & did not even realize that the Germans had been able to deploy any Type XXI U-boats during WW II. Thank you for the very interesting video!
I find different numbers depending on source but only a small number made in to actual operation. You might find my other video on the type XXI design interesting 🙂
I am also planning to do a walkthrough video of the Wilhelm Bauer in Bremerhaven, which used to be a type XXI. So subscribe to know when it's live sometime late this year or early next year.
You covered aspects of XXI performance that has long been shrouded between propaganda and extremely limited wartime testing.
Very informative.
Thanks. When I came upon this research I was rather surprised myself.
If they were built competently, and carefully outfitted with the batteries and quality engines they would have had as if assembled under ideal conditions, they would have met those paper statistics. But by the time they were being launched off the slipways, half of Germany had been turned to rubble. Not to mention the fact that half the subs components were assembled with unwilling slave labor. Thankfully for those reasons, these subs fell far enough from their design goals to affect the war, but still came close enough that they inspired the next generation of allied submersible craft.
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Indeed , I think the general idea of National Socialism is very good .
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As they would have operated mostly submerged they'd not been able to spot any enemy ships at all. And Luftwaffe was never able to spot anything either. Enigma was open to Allied intelligence.
So they'd been pretty useless anyway.
Very informative. My father was in the Canadian navy in WWII and was very impressed with what he knew of the type XXI, but this video has given me a better understanding of what it could and couldn't do.
Always good to get comments which adds real life aspects. Thanks for sharing 😊
This is very interesting. The Type 21 & 23 designs were the first of a new class with new technology and ideas. No wonder the aims set out were so far ahead of actual performance. There were drastic limitations in building any brand new design at that time when everything was under such drastic pressure in German war industry. Post war, without those problems, Other nations took the best WW2 ideas and tried to learn from them.
Well, the aims were achievable, but the design needed time to mature. However, Germany did not have time.
I think the US study came to that same conclusion.
You might enjoy my other video of the type XXIs design interesting 🙂
@@BecksHobbyProductions I will follow up on the type 21 & 23 videos I can find. I understand at least one Type 23 was built & is entombed in a collapsed U-boat pen in Northern Germany.
@@plunder1956 Thanks - that could make for some interresting information. Especially since Northen Germany is a place I can fairly easily travel to :)
The question is actually how this boat would have performed if it had been build in peace time, with all needed high quality materials and enough high skilled workers. We have seen that in so many german inovations were they had to switch to poorer quality or even complet different materials to get things to work at all....looking at the jet engine of the 262 for example.
Japan built independently as good submarines as Germany.
Interesting video and fascinating research. One take away is why this submarine was an important precursor of the Holy Grail - the Nuclear Submarine.
It was also a precursor to the majority of the following diesel / electric designs for those navies where nuclear was not an option
"One take away is why this submarine was an important precursor of the Holy Grail - the Nuclear Submarine."
That completely ignores reality. Nuclear subs have an advantage in greater cruisespeed and distance... Aaand that's it.
And nowadays with AIP submarines that can stay underwater for over 2 weeks? Nuclear submarines is essentially an imperialist thing.
Nuclear submarines are BIG and compared to conventional subs, NOISY.
Look over what little is officially known, and what is unofficially known about when Swedish submarine Gotland exercised against the USN.
It essentially humilitated the USN. They couldn't find the sub unless it wanted to be found. And it had no real trouble infiltrating a carrier group, taking periscope pictures at less than 1km(less than 300m in one case), ie easy and guaranteed killshot with torpedoes, of the carrier and then leaving, without ever being spotted.
And the USN submarines, all SSNs, fared no better.
And the Gotland was even rotating its 3 crews, all with conscripts, so no single "genius" captain or anything.
Nuclear subs have usefulness, but they're absolutely NOT superior by default. Even before AIP, that wasn't true, and with AIP, it's just laughable.
@@DIREWOLFx75 the nuclear subs have it's uses, but in my opinion it's different than a modern diesel/electric/AIP setup.
The situation with the Swedish submarine is not unique at all. The submarine I am a guide on did the same in 1992 and we are talking about a German type 207 design from 1960s
@@DIREWOLFx75 The Danish submarine "Sælen" (German type 207 from the 60s) also managed to successfully sink a USN aircraft carrier in the early 90s during a NATO exercise. They were not detected either...
To turn out technology of this quality in this time frame is amazing.
Between Nov' 1942 and April 1944 Nazi Germany conceived, designed, built and launched (of sorts) the worlds first modern attack submarine and the first cold war SSK, with many more in the pipeline, and under the most difficult of circumstances. Are we really surprised that it was pressed into service too early and that it was still work in progress?
The U S Navy had the Tang class diesel electric boat , which design was taken from the type 21 , most people don’t know that the U S Navy operated diesel boats thru the 80s. I served on the Tang , SS563 , and the Wahoo ,SS565
I read somewhere (can't remember what book) that the US Navy didn't plan to change the Gato/Baleo class after the war. That is untill they got their hands on a type XXI.
What a 100 years old ??😁😁
All navies copied the xxi if they had the facilities. Soviets, UK, French...
@@BecksHobbyProductions The Tench class was the epitomy of the fleet submarine.
The Tang class had a pancake engine which was a true failure...
Prof. Eberhard Rössler's study of German ww1 & ww2 German sumarines tells a different story
That's interesting - do you happen to know the title?
Will gladly do so when I am back from my holiday in the Kruger National Park in South Africa. Rössler' s study was and still is the definitive work on the subject.
Eberhard Rossler is the leading authority on the type XXI U-boat.
@@BecksHobbyProductions
did you get the book about Rossler's studies ??
@@BRILLSTEELMOTORSPORT no, I have his book with the XXI blueprints, but the book on U-boats is not available where I live :(
Bravo Sir! Excellent videos!
Thank you very much :) Glad you enjoyed it
VVery informative and bebunks many of the attributes of the Type XXI
Very interesting and well researched....the archival footage is also outstanding! Thank you!
Yeah, there are some real gems in the US National archive 😊 I was really happy when I found those
Well, then you are in luck. I will be visiting the Wilhelm Bauer in the fall for another walkthrough video 😊 Check my Facebook/Instagram for updates on projects
If they were looking for ACTUAL facts and figures of the Type XXI, all they had to do was ask the Kriegsmarine - the Wilhelm Bauer (formerly U-2540) IS a Type XXI that was scuttled at the end of WW2, and raised in 1957, refurbished and RECOMMISSIONED in 1960. It was in ACTIVE SERVICE until 1983. It is now a Museum.
Well, the performance of the Wilhelm Bauer can not be used as a performance reference for the type XXI. Part of the refurbish was the powerplant, which was replaced with new and different diesel engines.The old clutch system was removed and changed to a setup where only the electric motors were connected to the propellers, to name some of the changes.
They raised 2 Type XXIII too and put them in federal german Navy service named U-Hecht and U-Hai one of them sunk in the or near the engl Channel , only the Smut survived and the Boat was raised again from the Seabed , both were later scrapped.
The Type XXI was in service when i joined the Navy in 79 but we had also 2 Fletcher /Z Class in service at the time
It was never in "active service". It was a platform for testing different moduls.
@@rainerfantasie9573 it did make it active service and active patrols. It was just only a few boats and not for extended time.
@@becksvideoproductions U 2540 entered Frontausbildung (training for front) in April 1945. That normally lasted some months. U 2540's training was cancelled due to fuel shortage. It was scuttled before the crew was trained and it never did any active patrol during WW2. After being raised it was only used for testing engines and various equipment until 1968 when it was taken out of the Bundeswehr's service. It was then again used as a platform for testing of U-Boat class 206's equipment but with a crew of civilians.
Some class XXI boats did patrols, yes. None of them attacked any enemy ships.
As I recall it, one of the new things with the type 21 was, that it was made in "slices" all fully equiped, and ready to be welded together, comming from all over the country on barges via the canalsystem.
But nice video, I am surprized it wasn´t better. I have heard a lot over the years, so quite strange to have to chance ones point of view...
Yeah, I was a bit surprised when I found this research, but it is quite extensive. I think it comes down to the very few boats combined with short time in operations - this does not yield a great deal of actual experiences during WWII. I think thats why the design specs were never really put to the test and validated.
As for the "slices", I go over this in my other video about the type XXI :)
Yes, it was. But German manufacturing skills were not up to the task, with the result that the boats needed almost total rebuilding when the sections arrived at the yards.
Tolerances which might have been accepted in prefabricated freighters or even escort carriers were certainly not appropriate if applied to submersibles.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 Yes, there were absolutely problems with the quality of production. This was also part of the conclusion by the US Navy in their post WWII analysis. It was fundamentally a new way to built submarines so some teething problems should be expected, so add the effects of war it's not a good combination for quality 🙂 The first type XXI which went to sea had to return early due to problems with one of the sections.
Having visited a type 21 U boat at Bremerhaven in 2019, I was fascinated by your video. Well done in making it so informative.
Stay tuned! I will visit the Wilhelm Bauer in October to record material for a walkthrough video 👍
@BecksHobbyProductions Hi, thank you for the like. While I was there, my German friends took me to the assembly plant, a massive concrete building where you could still see the holes in the extremely thick ceiling where the Tall Boy bombs had penatrated. Like many things during that time in the war, it was built with slave labour, and we were told that after the war, you could see where the bombs had opened up the concrete and human limbs were visible. They would work mostly Russian prisoners to death, and if they died on the job, they would be thrown into the foundations. Their scratched pictures are still visible on the walls.
@@geraldmonger1921 that's part of my trip as well. Don't know have a script for a video, but will visit nonetheless and see if I can shoot some video for a later project
Thanks for the work. Much appreciated.
My pleasure!
A fascinating video and a different take on what I expected. IIRC, only 2(?) saw combat service (each for one patrol?) so it's difficult to know how well they might have done. The second pair of small motors was a brilliant idea, making them exceptionally quiet especially if they could dive deep. Their passive sonar was excellent for the time. Had one gotten into a convoy they could have let loose 18 torpedos in 20 minutes so it was mostly the "fault" of Allied escorts being efficient as much as the boat design. As I understand, it was their ability to stay submerged that could have made them more survivable. A Type VII could remain down for about 14 hours, while this model could stay down 75 hours, before lack of air and battery forced them to surface. Albert Speer attempted to use the US model... build sections and assemble. That worked great for the US but many of the assemblies were inexpertly built. Had it worked they could have rolled off the assembly line in significant numbers starting in 1943. It was a good enough sub that Pres Truman took a dive to 440 feet in U-2513 in 1946, when part of the USN. The Soviets acquired 4, built 15 more from parts, and may have assembled another 39 at captured plants, and France kept one in active duty until 1967. They may have had problems, but were still excellent boats though requiring significant service.
Yeah, my sources also say 2. Many more were built but they had so many issues that they spent a great deal of time making them good enough for operations.
I am planning to visit the Valentin bunker in the fall. Hopefully I will be able to put a video together on its link to assemble the XXI sections inside a big massive bunker.
As for the ability to be effective with the fast reload - It was tested in real life and had it worked it could have caused severe problems for a convoy. However, the type XXI was limited in the same way as the other U-boats; they had to find the convoys in the first place. I can't remember the exact data and don't have my books with me, but after (I think) 1942 above 98% of the cargo sent over the Atlantic made it. To a significant degree because the allies were able to direct convoys around the U-boats. But it's speculating 😊
Very well done and very informative.
Thanks for watching 😊
Thanks for keeping history alive. It was amazing the things that were developed in WWII. My father flew 52 missions in B17s.
Thanks for watching and sharing your family history. I really appreciate comments like these because I feel they make what I present come alive 😊
Really informative thank you
Thank you very much :)
Enlightening Presentation - Subscribed!
Thank you very much 😊
Good work, keep it going👍
Thank you very much 😊
An interesting summary of a key vessel in modern submarine development. An obvious question, revealed by your excellent research: Why were the type XII's not fitted out with the engines specified in the original plans? I suspect the level of damage the allied bombing campaign inflicted on the program was a factor. thank you for posting.
Thanks for your kind comment 😊 The decrease in performance was not due to change in engines, but changes in the total powerplant output. If I remember correctly, a significant part was due to the supercharger.
Now, if you are referring to the change away from the hydrogen peroxide powerplant, then I touch on that point in my other mini documentary 😊czcams.com/video/FJ_O4DKcdkg/video.html
How successful? Not very the war ended too early.
That said as the first cold war SSK it was hugely successful in that its innovations took submarine design in a new direction. Many of the innovations of the Electroboat program allbeit work in progress were critisiced in the USN 1946 N.H report, but then subsequently adopted successfully into every post submarine design. Ratifying the type XXI Electroboat by default.
@@brianswan3559if I remember correctly the first USN nuclear submarine hull design, was significantly influenced by the type XXI :)
@@BecksHobbyProductions Indeed it was, primarily however the USS Nautilus was an enlargement of the Gato hull design.
@@brianswan3559 Well according to the book "Cold war submarines" the hull design was based on the type XXI and XXVI. This was the proposal by Gunn and Abelson.
I still think that "elektroboot" sounds like it is describing German disco music circa 1975.
Very interesting video. CONGRATULATIONS and THANKS VERY MUCH. Greetings from Mexico City.
Thank you 😊
Very informative.
Thank you 😊
Most interesting!
I'd always thought that the Type XXI was a "super" submarine.
Thank you for educating me on this.
Maybe not "super" during WWII, but considering the impact it had on post WWII designs it has a "super" legacy 😊
Top notch video.
Glad you liked it 😊
Thanks for an interesting video🤩
Thank you very much! Glad you enjoyed it 🙂
Good job, Jon!
Thanks my friend! 😊
Thanks!
Excellent video which answered several questions I had. Thanks. edit: liked and subbed.
Glad to hear that. You might also enjoy my other video on the type XXI....and I have a visit planned to record content for a walkthrough of the Wilhelm Bauer (former type XXI) 👍
Great presentación
Well done!
Thanks 😊
Great video
Thank you 😊
Great job!!!! Thank you!!!!
You are so welcome!
Thank you for producing this particular video. As an Australian I found it very interesting to learn that Australia was involved in researching the performance of this amazing German submarine. I certainly look forward to viewing any videos that you may post in the future pertaining to World War II naval history.
Glad you enjoyed it 😊 They have some material on CZcams I recommend
Thanks for this insight. I just assumed the type XXI would have been a game changer if it had gone into service earlier in the war.
To be fair, it was most likely possible to fix the issues it was faced with. With time and effort on both design but also production quality
Thanks Becks, very interesting. I'd imagine the Allies were extremely concerned when they heard about this submarine, it would have been a definite game-changer if they'd managed to iron out all the teething problems. I guess quality control is an issue, when the workforce is primarily slave-labour and the Allies would be doing their best to raze any facility suspected of producing parts for this sub, to the ground. I'm looking forward to viewing the rest of your content, subbed.
Thank you for your comment 😊
The question is often raised if the type XXI would have changed the outcome of the war if it had entered earlier. In short it would have meant fewer submarines on patrol as the type XXI consumed much more resources. Economics of war plays a role.
If we follow the studies of Clair Blair then the only opportunity to win in the battle of the Atlantic would be before 1942.
The challenge is that for the type XXI to show what it could do (assuming all issues had been fixed) it needed to have opportunity and that was significant problem.
It's a much longer conversation, but in my opinion entry of the type XXI early would not have changed the outcome alone.
As for assembly, I will visit the Valentin bunker later this year. This was specifically built as a safe place to assemble the type XXIs
In any case - thanks for your comment and weighing in on this topic 👍
The Allies knows this subs very well in fact that they have already invested in tech that would counter this threat
I did not know the tech 21 was actually was actually that says thank you for letting me watch your video. I can’t wait for the next one to come out
Super spændende! Virkelig godt arbejde!
Tak skal du have 😊
very informative super cool
I certainly found it infomative and good made. I had the idea that it was nearly a wonderweapon before this video.
To be fair it had very little time to mature. Could it have overcome the performance issues given more time? Most likely. Considering its generally considered the inspiration for most navies after WWII speaks volumes as well :)
My dad was a US NAVY SUBMARINER for 30 years from WW2 onward and served on a sub that looked identical to the one shown near the end of the video!! I'm not sure but it might be the very same one shown as he had an EXCELLENT OIL PAINTING made by a gifted POST WAR JAPANESE ARTIST HANGING IN A NICE FRAME that was always displayed prominently on the wall of wherever we/he lived for ALL THE REST OF HIS LIFE!! He served on it in the MID 1950'S to the EARLY 1960'S; being HOMEPORTED at PEARL HARBOR NAVAL SUB BASE (where we, his family lived) in HAWAII but also PATROLLING OUT OF YOKOSUKA JAPAN and GUAM!! WHAT WAS THE NUMBER ON THE SIDE OF THE CONNING TOWER?? WAS IT THE SSN346?? I CAN ONLY REMEMBER HE SERVED ON SEVERAL BOATS; the CORPORAL, the TIRU and the BASHAW in that time frame (WW2 to LATE 1950'S)!! I think the CORPORAL and the TIRU were older US FLEET SUBS(TYPE 7 and 9)!! The SUBMARINE SERVICE is known as the SILENT SERVICE because it tries to OPERATE SILENTLY beneath the surface but also it's PERSONNEL ARE EXPECTED to KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT ABOUT their HIGHLY SECRETIVE OPERATIONS!! THAT INCLUDED THE FAMILIES BACK HOME, BTW!! I REMEMBER THAT MY DAD CAME HOME ONE DAY IN HAWAII IN A VERY TIRED/DISTRESSED
STATE in a dirty set of DUNGAREES and I noticed he had a LITTLE PLASTIC BADGE ATTACHED TO HIS SHIRT CONTAINING A LITTLE SQUARE PIECE OF CAMERA FILM that had TURNED COMPLETELY BLACK!! I asked him what it was and he told me(although he rarely said anything about what he did in the service) that it was his RADIATION BADGE and that it showed that he had been EXPOSED TO NUCLEAR RADIATION!! I'm a little kid sitting in his lap and he tells me he's been EXPOSED!! I don't know how many RADS or ROENTGENS that might have been but that told me later on when I had a better sense of the world that he was involved in the DEVELOPMENT OF NUCLEAR PROPULSION like future POTUS JIMMY CARTER did for ADMIRAL JAIME RICKOVER!! My dad had VOLUNTEERED for SERVICE in WW2; he wasn't DRAFTED!! GUESS HE WAS A PATRIOT AND A VOLUNTEER ALL HIS LIFE!! We (his family) were likewise INVOLVED on the HOME FRONT!! My mom served as a CIVIL DEFENSE WARDEN for our neighborhood in NAVY Housing back then in HAWAII and wore an old WW1 STEEL HELMET painted in white with a CIVIL DEFENSE SYMBOL EMBLAZONED ON IT and had a similar WHITE CLOTH ARMBAND with the CD SYMBOL on it too! In school (as well as in any public area) we were all WELL DRILLED in the "DUCK AND COVER" PROTOCOL!! I REMEMBER WE WATCHED THE "GREEN GLOW" from the ATOMIC TESTS at night then!! We children didn't gather what danger we all were in. We just thought it LOOKED COOL!! LITTLE DID WE KNOW, RIGHT?? And the GOVERNMENT LIKED IT THAT WAY, OF COURSE!! KEEP THEM IN THE DARK AND FEED THEM BULLSHIT!! That's what's known as the old "MUSHROOM THEORY" of MANAGEMENT!! OR "WHAT THEY DON'T KNOW WON'T HURT THEM and EVEN IF IT DOES, WHO CARES?? RIGHT?? THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS!! SO BEND OVER AND KISS YOUR STUPID SWEET BUTT GOOD-BYE, JACKSON!! ALOOOOHA!!
CONSTANTLY changing THE lettERS from CApiTaLs tO lOwER CAsE is AnNoYing aS FuCk aNd mAkeS ReAdinG DifFicULt.
Interesting
Thanks
The best part after the video is that you calmly answered some outrageous statements. I was unaware of Schnee over reporting his missions. That every nation afterwards copied and used the Type XXI really says something.
Thanks 👍 I try to keep things factual. I highly recommend the video the Australian historical society made on the topic. My video is in large parts based on their work.
Now there were over a hundred of these Type XXI assembled, and at least 5 countries operating them post war 4 using them in active service. US intelligence estimated that USSR had 15 in use by 1948 and a further 39 in parts. France operated one in the Meditterainian during the Suez Crisis. What were these countries experiences with the type, and why is so little referred to that in this video?
It's a simple creative choice and topic focus. I wanted to tell the story in the context of WWII. Post WWII is an entirely different and broader scope 😊
@@BecksHobbyProductions Yes, but it might have given a more accurate picture of the submarine's actual performance. The sub came in operation so late in WWII mainly due to the lack of trained crews.
Personally I think it's 2 different stories. One told during the impact and circumstances of WWII and one set in the very different time, which followed. One story is in a hot war, the other in a cold war.
That being said, it could be interesting to consider what happened to the remaining type XXIs after WWII 😊
Was the 6 knots stated its maximum surface speed or its cruising speed?
If you are referring to the 6 knots mentioned at 8:14, then its the snorkeling speed. So neither surfaced or really submerged performance.
Great video. Though faster, type 7s couldn't shadow a convoy because of radar and air cover.
Well, it depends on when in the battle of the Atlantic we look🙂 However, late in the war with combination of radar/HUFF DUFF and air coverage from Iceland and the Liberators with extended range, YES the U-boats in general had severe issues.
@@BecksHobbyProductions indeed, that's why they fitted snorkels which severely hampered the type VII & IX performance. This guy does some great work regarding the air war against the U Boats. czcams.com/video/G3UG1pxcYrU/video.html&pp=iAQB
@@thebruffy1077 Thanks! Ill have a look at his content and sources :) But agree, the snorkels never made a real difference for the type VII or IX.
didn't even know the channel - informative video!
Man imagine the people + resources that worked on the so-called "miracle weapons" worked on this submarine program...
Thanks. I am a small channel, but try to put out some interesting content 😊
You missed one of the most important innovations. Type 21 was build in segments, transported to the shipyard, there it was finished and put together. This increased the speed of production enormously and reducing the effectiveness of bombing the shipyards
You are correct - I didn't cover it in this video. That's because it was not directly related to the operational performance of the submarine during WWII. However, I did cover it in my other video about the design and construction: czcams.com/video/FJ_O4DKcdkg/video.htmlsi=s_nWfsIPQZELocmg
I also have a videoproject in my backlog to tell the story of the Valentin bunker where the assembly was to take place.
Problem was Tallboy Bombs kept breaching the banks of the Canals upon which the hull segments were to be transported on.
Extremely informative, a lot of information that I was unaware of, too bad you put out content so infrenquently.
Thank you for the kind comment. To make my videos is a significant time investment. To put things into perspective, this script has probably been through 10 bigger version changed and 20 smaller ones. That's just writing the story and it does not include research 😊 I set myself a high standard for many smaller details, but they are all contribute to the result you see. Don't get me wrong , I don't mind it as it's a great feeling when you feel you got something just right 😉
Are there any available documents from when the various nations tested captured XXI boats? And while I'm asking - what are some good sources for information about 1950s and 60s submarine hunting. We have plenty about WWII, and about modern guided torpedoes/SSNs, but not really much from the era of GUPPY boats.
What I have is this link to the US Navy study: www.uboatarchive.net/Design/DesignStudiesTypeXXI.htm
I am stunned, I have read much on these subs and its clear what I have read is wrong.
I was also surprised...but personally I think it comes down to how the story is told after the war and given how little data there was to document the actual performance, the design specs prevailed.
A What If? story of the XXI deploying in 1944 would be a very interesting read.
Yeah. I thought about this as well and it's a tough topic. The challenge of going down the "What if" route is to avoid stacking the deck in favor of the conclusion you would like to reach. I have toyed with the idea - even putting it into this video, but it involves a great deal of guessing outcomes.
Seems like it would not have made much difference if the performance was indeed compromised to this extent, and even if it was it seems questionable that they could have moved about given the absolute mastery the allies had in the air. Radar could even detect snorkel heads at that point.
One of the things people miss is the suppression of knowledge after WW2. Of course the US and Especially the British and French would downplay the capabilities of their former enemies. While at the same time copying them. Ever heard of NEEDLE GUNS? More commonly known as RIFLES.
The type 21 was years ahead anything the allied had and was years ahead of its time.
It really was 👍
Small problem. Attempting to construct them in prefabricated sections and fit them together in shipyards, as the US had done with freighters & escort carriers, was a disaster. Consequently, most required rebuilding almost from scratch, and only two ever made war patrols as a result.
There were a number of major shortcomings about the design itself, as a post war US Navy assessment determined :- The United States Navy concluded that whilst the design had some admirable features, it was seriously flawed. The submarines' engines were underpowered, which limited the surface speed and increased the time required to charge the batteries.
The hydraulic system was unduly complex, and its main elements were located outside the pressure hull. Thus making the system highly vulnerable to corrosion and damage. The snorkel was also badly designed, and difficult to use in practice.
The source for this is Clay Blair, 'Hitler's U-boat War: The Hunters 1939-1942.' London: Cassel & Co., 2000.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 Very much true as well. The type XXI was 1 example of an attempt to innovate to success. I completely agree that while many aspects were very innovative, but there can a big difference between innovation and reaping the benefits of that innovation in the real world.
I go over some of these points in my other video on the design and construction : czcams.com/video/FJ_O4DKcdkg/video.html
The Soviet Tango class took inspiration from the hydraulic reloading system. If you want to can see it here : czcams.com/video/dwsNEnjsuHE/video.html
For others who want to read the US Navy study on the type XXI, it can be found here : www.uboatarchive.net/Design/DesignStudiesTypeXXI.htm
I have the Clay Blair books, but was not aware that he made studies on the type XXI. What book and pages covers this?
@@BecksHobbyProductions Thanks. As it is raining hard here, and I expect my cricket match to be cancelled, probably saving me from my usual embarrassingly inept attempts to bat, I will have a look this afternoon.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 feel free to revert with your thoughts :)
Would love to hear your take on the Japanese I-400 class subs.
Could be interesting 👍
Very interesting about this very advanced submarines. The cause of their little rôle in WW2 is well explain. Would be interesting to speak on thé expérimental hydrogen XX1 and thé return of experiment, thé reason it was not industrialised.
This ingeneers were very créative and strong. Pity it was for a Bad cause.
The hydrogen peroxide powerplant is on my loooong list of projects 😊
German U boat captains to Admiralty toward the end of the war: "We go out on missions and the enemy is just waiting for us. They know what we're doing. They've broken our code!" Admiralty: "Enigma is unbreakable." Alan Turing: "Oh yeah? Hold my beer."
The U boat fleet suffered extremely heavy casualties, losing 793 U-boats and about 28,000 submariners, a 75% casualty rate, the highest of all German forces during the war.
The even if the type XXI had delivered it would have faced the same challenge as the other U-boats; finding a convoy.
That being said, if it did find a convoy and performed as designed, chances are it would have caused severe destruction...
I will go with Erich Topp's assessment but considering the much smoother hydrodynamics of the hull, I'd question the submerged speed was less than a type 7 or 9. Swept area surfaced may have caused less surface speed plus the elimination of large deck guns for AA batteries kept the type limited to submerged attack. The fact remains that the type 21 was much cleaner submerged. What about the Wilhelm Bauer and the two type 23 subs raised and used by the post war German Navy? What did they show?
The type XXI was faster than the type VII submerged, however it was slower on the surface. So neither speed delivered to what was required 😊
You failed to explain why the XXI was different from the VIIC in tems of speed. Design differences of course, but in what critical ways? @@BecksHobbyProductions
That's correct, I have not dived into the deeper technical parts which enabled the type XXI to reach those higher speeds. However, that was not the goal of the video either (as stated in the introduction). I do touch upon some of the design elements in my video about the type XXI design, so feel free to have a look at that one :)
That being said, the electric motors of the type VII and XXI had very different output, but this fact cant be viewed in isolation as the size of the vessel and the drag of the shape also play a major role and to detail the key aspects and how they made a difference is a whole different conversation and engineer would be better suited to carry :)@@EllieMaes-Grandad
Thank you. After seeing this video, I found the earlier one, which covers some of the aspects. @@BecksHobbyProductions
Interesting but I have one question. How could an extremely hydronamic hull, combined with creep motors, be noisier than a type 7C ? On what evidence is this claim based?
That was a mistake on my part (to be added to the corrections). I should have stated it presented a larger "target" for ASDIC.
i mean, didnt the xxi given to eng have its turbos removed by its crew?
Type XXI was always a prototype (contrary to what they say). Germany had big supply problems, requiring compromises and just lies - i.e. they were reporting 1000 HP engine while it was 500 HP because of "substituted" components, etc. Just a collapsing state. It does not change the fact that XXI design was miles ahead of other subs.
True mostly, however Germany had 119 boats commisioned at the end of WW2 with a further 7 held back for training and experimental purposes due to construction defects. Almost unbelievable under the circumstances.
Anatomy of the Ship Series.
I read that the type 21 u-boat was originally designed to use hydrogen peroxide to fuel it and this proved to dangerous for the crew and standard diesel/electric purpupulsion was substituted instead.
?
It's correct, that the submarine with the hydrogen peroxide powerplant was the origin of the type XXI. It was called the type XVIII. I even made a video about it 😊 czcams.com/video/FJ_O4DKcdkg/video.html
Type XXI and type XXIII submarine projects were started in May 1943 because German Navy was experiencing #50% loss rate with their current type VIIC submarine because of allies's progresses in detection technologies and anti-submarine tactics. Germans were in fact compelled to build something better than their obsolete type VIIC and they turned to existing 1940 projects of Walter hydrogen peroxide propulsion submarine that had been rejected because tests had proved this propulsion system was too dangerous. Those projects included hull designs derived from type VIIC hull, with double height and most of the equipment for surface navigation removed, because Walter turbines didn't need air, so those subs didn't need to surface. It looks like those hull designs were on the quick and dirty side because Walter hydrogen peroxide submarine projects didn't look very realistic in 1940 and didn't enjoy much resources. In May 1943, German Navy had little time to try to find remedies to the obsolescence of their current subs, so they turned to those old formerly rejected projects, replacing the peroxide turbines with the largest diesel-plus-electric propulsion system they could fit. It looks like a quick-and-dirty adaptation of an old project with a propulsion system much less powerful than the initially proposed hydrogen peroxide turbines. The type XXI subs project was started in May 1943 and, although much resources were devoted to it, only 2 subs had been accepted for service and deployed before May 8th, 1945, so their military fitness has never been proved and has been the object of many controversies. It doesn't really look like a huge success, and I really wonder why those submarine enjoy such a high reputation today. Perhaps some bias in favour of many things that relate to Nazi Germany ?
I think you might enjoy my other video on tye type XXI design and construction 😊 Personally I think the design specs became the post WWII narrative because the real world experience was just too few to make an impact.
If you mean how successful was it in war- it was more of a footnote. If you mean that it usured in new theologies its impact was beyond belief. In fact US Nuclear submarines are basically type 21 with a nuclear reactor.
Pretty much sums it up 😊 However, what I also address is the performance legacy, maybe more stemming from the design specifications than the actual performance.
Hey, if anyone has a link to the full video, i think I'd like to see the whole thing...😂🎉
I wonder what class sub that is at 11:38
When I get time, I will see if I can track this down from the source description
Perhaps, rather than seeing them as a revolution in themselves we should look at the Type 21 as a prototype for the Guppies’ the British rebuilt T-class and the later Oberons plus the Soviet Whiskeys.
A collection of innovative ideas ideas that just couldn’t be or weren’t taken to completion.
The technology created during war is facinating subject and if we could resolve conflict via war games the world would be a better place but humans will resolve to win at any cost especially if their survival is threatened so I guess how we treat our enemies after wars is what really matters because we humans will never stop trying to destroy each other.
The japanese I 201 is quite similar. Both in speed and in failing to have any effect on the war
1:13 is that the TARDIS next to the UK submarine?
The type 21 could have really been Germanys truely war winning Wonder Weapon. Even the post WWII first Nuclear Sub, was basically a Type 21 with a reactor in it. A truly technicall breakthrough, even more so than the V-2 Rocket !!!
Nope the brits already had the ASW equipment to counter the type XXI. Not even the first nuke subs was inspired by the type 21
@@gotanon9659Spoken like a true Brit.
@@gotanon9659
The RN were rightfully concerned by the development of high speed submarines. The results of the Fairlie ASW trials of Sept 1944 with a modified HMS Seraph confirmed the fears of the Admiralty in that it concluded the only way to counter the new U-boats in the short term was to bomb the assembly yards until new countermeasures and tactics could be developed. Assuming the new U-boats potential was reasonably close to that anticipated by Nazi Germany then the Allies had no effective countermeasure available in 1944/45. However it would have given time.
Even if the type 21 never really was everything they hoped it would be, it was enough to scare the allies. Sometimes a psychological scare turns out to be far more effective than a real world one. That said. If the type 21 had come along a little bit earlier in the war and in greater numbers It may very well have made a significant difference in the outcome of the Atlantic war. Because obviously they would have made corrections as production went along. In a way the type 21 did end up winning as even though it wasn't the performer they thought it was going to be in the field it influenced submarine design from every country.
What comes to mind for me is the perceived invincibility of the Japanese zero when it was first encountered it literally scared the hell out of any who had to fly against it. In fact if they hadn't have captured one intact who knows how long the zero would have been feared and how it might have influenced aircraft design.
Thanks a lot my Lord to show this fantastics germans idems
The British R class of ww1 would have been a good starting point for advanced submarines in ww2.
As for max depth - I doubt the 10 extra meters compared to VII/C ir IX matter. And the subs that left the dock could not even use the rated depth due to problems with a hatch buckling.
I found the data to support this. You are correct that if you look at the specifications for max depth in itself was not a big change. The statement comes from the fact that the safety margin for the type XXI was significantly larger than previous designs, which allowed the captains the discretion and safety to dive deeper.
assuming you got the rare one with a fixed hatch. And solid welding. And no problems in the segments.
The RN said "worth than previous onces, shoddy quality". And those where the ones that passed german inspection instead of being rejected
And hope that no slave worker sabotaged it more suptle to drown Nazis by the dozend.@@BecksHobbyProductions
Few people realize that submarine design and improvement on said designs is comparable to space craft design and improvement! IT AINT EASY!
The main reason for the type XXI shortfalls versus specs lies with the diesel propulsion. And that is caused by the material shortages ofGermany at the time. Germany had no trouble designing efficient and powerful diesels and that lead has even extended into the presence. Indeed, as you stated, after WWII the specs were met and exceeded. Fact is also that the last action of uboat was a type XXIV sinking three ships within British water, solely on sonar bearing and submerged. In the left the scene undetected. TypXXI boats were undetectable (in 1945) at slow speed as later US trials would show.
There was also an issue with achieving the underwater speed, however, like you said there was an issue with the diesel engines performance. If I remember correctly it was partly because the supercharger did not deliver, but I can't remember the details.
It's really bitchin' in Silent Hunter, though.
Agreed! 😁
Time to use my life to build one
We are analysing a boat that was essentially on a shake down cruise captained by a man with a track record of being economical with the truth. I would say that is a pretty poor war time sample size to draw any conclusions. Good video though.
True! That's part of the challenge with the performance legacy - the operational experience is simply not big enough to make a conclusion. None the less, what happened was instead that the design specs became the legacy. And it's this legacy I am challenging here 😊
@@BecksHobbyProductions cracking video by the way, keep up the good work
Thanks 👍
Only one went on war patrol
And never fired in anger as the surrender came into effect
Just as it sighted a convoy!
Australia could do well to look at this class, instead of the pipe dream of going nuclear.
Better on paper then in reality test after showed there were many more problems the the expected
Fortunately Germany in WW2 was to invested into other wonder weapons, invest resources in really effective weapons like the Type XXI
It did , Mg'42, Me262, Panzerfaust, V1 and V2, ,Assault gun 44, the prototype of all assault guns, synthetic gasoline, there is more.
Asdic is British for sonar
Actually didn't know that 👍
Even if the Germans built the best Submarine in the World, the Enigma code had been cracked. With the Allies listening to all their communication & tracking their broadcasts with HFDF it left them vulnerable to attack.
All the submarines in WWII were faced with the challenge: finding their targets and being in a position to attack. It's a vast ocean!
@@BecksHobbyProductions. Yea, up to around 1942 the U-Boat's had great success (the happy times), but after the Allies broke the Enigma & were listening to them in real time, along with fixing their position with radio detection when they broadcast their daily reports every night. Even when the Germans recorded their message on a tape & shrunk it to a-few second broadcast the Allies could still track them. They simply routed the convoys away from them & eventually sent Hunter/Killer group's after them. Some U-Boat's would go week's without sighting a single ship only to be attacked in the middle of the ocean by a flying boat. When the Allies could see their every move & hear every report/order they sent or received they could never win.
Type klasse für diesel elektrik boote
You can have the best uboat in the world and still loose... when your enemy can read your whole communcation. Blechley Park was what annihilated the german uboats.
Surely intelligence played a significant role, but the introduction of HUFF/DUFF and the extension of the Liberators range was important as well. This was key for the change in May 1943
With the snorkelling capabilities I had assumed that it would spend little time crawling on the surface. Considering the remarkable degree of shameless copying of the craft it must have had significant capabilities.
It was the plan that it should be able to obtain a high speed, but that didn't turn out to be possible. If I remember correctly, there was a severe vibration when using the snorkel at too high speed.
@@BecksHobbyProductions interesting. Perhaps vortex induced vibrations affected the snorkel stem. That’s not too difficult to fix. I think that the Allies were the main beneficiaries of the technology and completed the development process.
@@robinwells8879 true. History shows that derived learnings did achieve success 😊
what about the post war performance by the West Germans?
More useful would have been more Type XXIII, sooner! The battle of the Atlantic was won. Allied intel was good and few convoys were actually "wolf-packed" after mid '43....Intel had the convoys avoid the patrol lines. But where did the Allied ships have to go to? Ports in the UK and later Invasion beaches, later ports in France. Small boats like the Type XXIII, in quantity, could have played hell in the Irish Sea and English Channel
Germany had some severe restrictions, so I don't think it was until they raised the U2540 and started using it as a testbed in the late 50s that they developed new submarines.
I am not aware of other type XXIs used by West Germany 😊
The Allies were fortunate the XXI was not deployed a few months earlier. Many sailors would have been killed. The XXI was practical wonder weapon.
Well, would it have made a difference? Even if it had delivered to specs it was still faced with the same limitations of opportunity as the other U-boats...but an interesting topic nonetheless
What about the I-200 series of sub that Japan had. And NO the I-200 was the influence for the guppy program.
That's an interesting perspective. Do you have some kind of source? I would be keen to read that 🙂
IJN Sentaka was at least as. Modern as XXI submarine.
Thanks for this info. Just goes to show that superior tech and innovation doesn't win wars when hopelessly mismanaged by self-doomed ideology.
Modern ladies adapting to warship urinals, comes to mind.
Agreed. You can't innovate to win a war alone
Neither the main engines nor batteries were those of the design, but poor solutions due to the very bad situation of Germany at those times. Quite a pitty that only a botch job of this wonderful piece of engineering was tested.
The type XXI was a derived design from the type XVIII. The type XVIII was a proposed hydrogen peroxide powered submarine, but when the development of it, did succeed fast enough, the same design was adopted with a traditional diesel/electric powerplant. This could be done because the significant space needed for the hydrogen peroxide fuel could house batteries instead. In other words, the type XVIII was born with a hydrogen peroxide powerplant, but the XXI was born with a classic diesel/electric. From the outside, they appear identical..Source : David Millers work on U-boats.
Even a comment
Thanks 👍