The Zelda Pattern - How to Spice Up Bland Game Boss Design ~ Design Doc
Vložit
- čas přidán 8. 04. 2021
- Go to www.audible.com/designdoc or text DESIGNDOC to 500 500 and start listening today.
Consider Link. An average boy from Kokiri Forest with a strange curse. Doomed to repeat the same boss design over and over. Be warned, viewer. You've entered... The Zelda Pattern.
Let's talk about a repeated pattern in The Legend of Zelda's boss design, and how you can break out of it.
Support Design Doc on Patreon: / designdoc
Design Doc on Twitter: / warbot400
#zelda #breathofthewild #ocarinaoftime - Hry
The dungeon item being needed to defeat the dungeon boss is not too much of a problem. The real problem is that a lot of items have no use outside their specific dungeon.
Exactly this. Look at Ocarina of Times Hammer from the Fire Temple. It is only useful in the Dungeon where you get it. You can use it outside of the Dungeon for combat, but its damage is not worth the slow attack speed, since its almost similar to the Master Swords Damage. Just overall a pretty short sighted Item design
Dominion rod
Looking at you, Twilight Princess items. The dominion rod and the spinner are the two that commit this mistake most egregiously imo.
Very much agree. There's nothing necessarily wrong with having a boss test item use...as long as that item is then used again later. It's about building a toolbox or arsenal that progressively adds to the player's abilities.
Breath of the Wild did a good job of this; rather than having a bunch of specialized items, you got just a few multi-purpose powers that you'd utilize throughout the game in multiple different and creative ways.
Looking outside the series...Zelda and Metroid share quite a bit of DNA, and Zelda could look to Metroid for some ideas here. In Metroid, Samus builds an arsenal over the course of the game that steadily increases her power, and bosses often require utilization of several items and tactics in order to defeat.
Also, Metroid Prime 2 had an interesting system - almost akin to a Mega Man game - where bosses, rather than being defeated by certain items, held and utilized those items themselves. They demonstrated the power and use of those items, and the player would have to defeat the boss to acquire the item. This was repeated again with the EMMIs in Metroid Dread.
I’m playing through Skyward Sword and it feels like one of the best games for this! Have yet to beat it but it seems nice the first 3-4 dungeons at least.
Ghirahim is a good example of an exception to the pattern. Instead of shooting him with your beetle thingie you just got, the fight is all about your swordsmanship
The only problem with him is shared with The Imprisoned, the big walking foot you fight in the Sealed Grounds. Multiple encounters, all of them pretty dang same-y.
@@jarynn8156 Girihim at least gains extra stages in his later fights.
And the third fight is a good penultimate boss
@@Niick3015 and is interesting as a character and utilizes the motion controls the best, as you can do nearly everything he can, and thus anticipate those moves with little delay, unlike the knives. I mean granted, he tracks way too well, thus you can get completely stuck by not understanding what's required, but that's not something we can control here without nuking the AI and rebuilding him ground up.
@@shadowsnake5133lol i recently started playing this game on switch for the first time, i needed the help of a redit post to understand why i kept getting blocked- my tiny BotW brain doesnt understand motion controll boss fights 🤣
My biggest issue is that there is often no POINT to the boss making sure you mastered the item, because there's a decent chance you'll rarely or never need it again. They'll be some exceptions, notably the hookshot usually, but often thats the final exam an hour after you got it
I hate it when a game gives you an item that has basically one purpose and will never be needed again, like the key cards in pokemon.
If a boss is the final test for say a pair of rocket boots, i better have a reason to use them after, like using them for shortcuts, secrets, and general combat later and hopefully not be punished for not using them at every opportunity.
Its a ballance but a good example would be how the turbo and rocket nozzles in mario Sunshine are useful beyond just the doors they open (and sometimes can be bypassed but that may require glitches). And are fun to use so you are motivated to use them more than just when the game forces you to.
It's been a while since I really played a Zelda game but aren't there usually still a lot of optional heart pieces, etc throughout? Wouldn't you count that. I feel like I'm always still finding things that use the old tools.
Twilight princess has in my opinion the worst one.
The Dominion Rod.
You beaten the boss, a good one at that.
Now you have the item you need to move that statue out of the way.
Oh, time has not been kind to it.
Ok, let's go on a mini quest to fix it.
Ok, it is fixed. Let's move it out of the way.
Okay done, I'm sure we will use it again.
Any time now.
Got a piece of heart.
Um, that's looks very final.
And it is. I only used it one other time.
So a piece of heart was all this was good for?
Items that are used a single time and forgotten? Let me introduce you to the Mirror Shield in Minish Cap, which has actually zero uses! I love the game with my whole heart and 100% completed it, but the post-game (if we can call it that) sucks.
They give you Mirror Shield *only* after beating the game, when the only things left to do are fuse some more kinstones and collect figurines, I don't know what they expected people to do with it, reflect Octoroks' attack in Hyrule Field?
@@sol_2300
Might as well call it the Minish Sheild.
As that is how important it is.
Minuscule
3:08 I feel like it should also be noted that it's possible to beat Ghoma without slingshot by stunning her with Deku Nuts. Just an asterisk on the subject.
That’s the weird thing about OoT and why this boss design can be detrimental even though it makes good design sense on paper. OoT does have a number of extra applications and versatility to its items, but most people won’t ever discover that because the game goes out of its way to tell the player “you only ever need this item when we tell you you need it” with this kind of dungeon and boss design. So you can’t really blame someone for not discovering stuff like that on their own.
Oh man, on the topic of people not discovering things about Zelda bosses because of the standard "Get Dungeon Item, Defeat Boss Using Dungeon Item" design, it took what, a good 14 years or so for people to discover the Forest Water instakill against Kalle Demos in Wind Waker? Wack. Like, I know you still have to use the Boomerang to get to that point in the battle, but still. 14 years. Crazy.
@@BlazeMakesGames funnily enough for some reason when I was a kid that was the way I defeated that boss cause I thought that was the dungeon item along with the slingshot and the deki sticks. And since it worked I just kept doing it
@@AuraOfANobody Wasn't that mostly because that water turned normal after a while, so it wasn't effective, and speedrunning such a specific detail isn't something that can happen accidentally? Or am I thinking of something else?
@@AnotherDuck Yeah, you've got the right one, and that's definitely a big factor in it - It's on a like 20 minute timer, I'm pretty sure? Not something I would expect people to come across normally, even in the context of speedrunning, especially when there's nothing in the game to suggest it as a possibility iirc? So I suppose it's not entirely a fitting topic in the context of Zelda boss design here, haha. But the conversation reminded me of it, and the massive timeframe in which it went undiscovered is still kind of wild to think about, especially considering hackers and dataminers and modders and whatnot all love to get their hands on whatever internal bits they can of first party Nintendo games, and Wind Waker had been toyed with a fair bit even before its discovery I'm pretty sure :0
I think the biggest sin of patterns like these are when the dungeon item itself is *rarely* useful after the boss fight you needed it for. Twilight Princess was awful about this, as the Ball & Chain, Spinner, and Dominion Rod are all used very sparingly outside their dungeons of origin. The latter two of which are also extremely rigid in their use-case so they feel less like "tools" in your arsenal and more like "key items" you have to equip on occasion.
Spinner was usefull to go down slopes and go around in the desert tho. No very combat oriented but a nice addition to your movement set. Dominion rob had no redeeming feature.
The Ball and Chain has plenty of combat uses actually, it's probably my favourite Zelda item ever. But even so I don't really think every item needs to have a use outside of it's specified place. Sure, it's a problem when it's widespread, but I don't wanna hear people complain about the Dominion Rod not being useful outside of the temple. It had one of the most fun gimmicks in-temple, and combined with the awesome spectacle of the boss fight, it's a completely fine item. The Spinner is missed potential though. Should've consumed oil and moved at hyperspeeds.
Shadow of the Colossus changes the triangle with a factor not done too much in Zelda: Physics.
SotC has the most samey pattern to every colossi you fight but physics play a factor in how you get to those weakpoints and how you beat their "puzzle" some even let you skip their puzzle entirely if you know where to jump and vault.
I’ve seen people say they hoped that was where BOTW was gonna go for its final fight. In hindsight, from the Talus on the plateau to the new climbing system it does look like they were setting something like that up but just... didn’t. Here’s hoping they remedy that in BOTW2
I get the feeling the problem being highlighted here isn't actually what's being discussed.
My understanding is that the discussed topic is repition and simplicity whereas the highlighted issue is actually downtime. There's a lot of breathing space in the games in line with Nintendo's accessable difficulty level. The Darksiders example and stand out Zelda boss exmaples share a key feature. In between openings, the player has a task to do such as dodge or prepare an attack. Other than that they still share the repetitive structure that's being discussed in other boss battles.
I think the better takeaway here is to designg your bosses to have less empty time where the player is simply waiting and add in dynamic tasks in line with your desired difficulty.
i feel bad for majora's mask, cause it didnt have this issue as much in the original
i guess that's the reason i like Majora's more than Ocarina
Really only 2 bosses at most have this problem, those being Goht and Twinmold, and even they have alternate solutions that can work. As for the others, well Odolwa doesn’t have a very clear weakness. Yeah, there’s a gold deku flower in the middle of the arena, but that’s just one option, you could also just use the sword, or the Blast Mask. Gyorg is in the water so it’s implied the Zora Mask is what you use, but you could also hit it with arrows. I’m not as willing to praise this boss as it is generally annoying to fight either way, but the Zora mask isn’t the clear cut solution. Even Goht and Twinmold have other options, though it’s more obvious what the solution is in those cases. For Goht you can still use Bombs and Arrows as he passes by, and for Twinmold if you don’t use the Giant’s Mask, there isn’t really a clear cut weakness. Though in that case you probably should use the Giant’s Mask. The remake kinda made the game conform to the Zelda pattern though which is a shame.
Yeah well, but Majora's bosses were mostly thrash anyway. The one great exception is of course Goht who was tons of fun!
That was the one thing I really hated about the 3DS version. The bosses in the original version felt less like glorified puzzles and more like straight up brawls which was a real breath of fresh air for me. So what do they do in the remake? Turn every boss right back into a glorified puzzle. Textbook example of fixing something that wasn't broken.
The Remake added more issues than it fixed. They did that game dirty.
I feel like most Zelda bosses would fit better as mid-bosses in dungeons, allowing the player to prove that they know the basics before truly challenging them with more complex ideas and puzzles.
funny thing is, the minibosses that do show up in dungeons often dont have anything to do with the new item you got like dark link or patra
Magic energy tennis? You dare disrespect the Dead mans volley? Oh, you’ve angered the gods now!
I don't have a problem with the Zelda boss formula in theory. They come across more as puzzle fights than something meant to be a test of raw combat skills. Although I admit they could be improved with a bit of mixing up or being made more complex sometimes. It's kind of a shame that Twilight Princess suffers from this rigid boss structure so much too, since it has probably the most in depth sword combat system of the series. Some of the minibosses make good use of it, but then a lot of the major bosses feel really scripted like they're not really posing any threat.
Cool to see a shoutout for Darksiders. Those games tend to get overlooked too often.
I was half expecting a mention of CrossCode though. That game has some bosses that get pretty wild with integrating puzzles. Although I guess they're mostly towards the end of the game, so perhaps that's too spoilery.
If it’s a puzzle boss, it should make you think.
The fact that CrossCode's "dungeon items" are the elements that modify your existing attacks rather than adding new ones I think helps it avoid the Zelda Pattern. The PvP fights follow completely different rules and on the high end can become more like elaborate dances rather than puzzles or even simple combat. Covering the entire screen with bullet hell also provides a decent encouragement to keep moving even when you can't hurt them.
I think Gohma is the only main boss in TP that killed me. And it was only once. Meanwhile, several minibosses killed me at least one time. So, I think you're correct, the minibosses are less formulaic and require some ability in the sword combat system.
I dislike that most of these fights force you to wait a lot, just running around avoiding pretty basic attacks. I appreciate greatly that Breath of the Wild does away with that for the most part, as you're heavily incentivised to find your own opportunities to attacks. Most boss enemies in that game don't have dedicated openings to let you wail on them after they do an attack. Only a bit of a pity that it's arguably a bit too easy sometimes. While monsters like the Hinox will eventually protect their eye if you try to aim at it with your bow, most other enemies will not adjust like that, at which point you can just kind of spam arrows at the weak point until they're dead. The Blight ganons are particularly guilty of this.
A notable example *before* BotW, and among the 3D games to boot, is Ghirahim. For a game that's pretty formulaic in its design overall, I really like that as the first boss, Ghirahim breaks the mold completely. The Beetle is not used in the fight whatsoever and instead it decides to test your understanding of the core swordfighting combat. At first it's just a simple case of "don't telegraph your swings", something the Bokoblins have already attempted to teach the player by that point, though Ghirahim is more likely to punish recklessness as he can steal your sword if he blocks it. Pretty basic, though not especially thrilling.
The second phase is more interesting, because you have a lot of ways to fight Ghirahim. While you do have to wait for Ghirahim to make the first move to land a hit on him, you don't just have to wait out his attacks until he exposes himself. In fact, attempting to do so will make this fight quite slow and painful. Instead, you're heavily incentivised to quickly react to his attacks and counter them directly. Thanks to this, the fight feels much less like a waiting game than most 3D Zelda bosses and makes the challenge as a whole feel much more interactive. You'll progress the battle much more quickly if you're carefully deflecting daggers, shield bashing his rushes or punishing the wind up of his own sword swings directly.
He comes back again later for a round 2, serving both to reinforce the rivalry between Link and Ghirahim and to test your understanding of the combat again, now requiring you to adjust a lot more quickly (and again the fight has nothing to do with the dungeon item). This means Ghirahim breaks the pattern more than once and the reycling of a boss this way doesn't feel tacked on, either. Nintendo definitely got their effort's worth with Ghirahim as he stands out as a very memorable boss, compared to most of the rest. I enjoy him quite a bit.
Skyward Sword is a bit of an oddball due to the emphasis on the sword combat which lets some of the bosses be a lot more engaging since you need to be precise with your sword swings especially in the Ghirahim fights but many of the bosses still fall back to the formula just with the “swipe swipe swipe” part being more involved which helps a little. That said, out of the Oot style games, SS probably has the most bosses that break away from the pattern.
@@DesignDoc There's also the imprisoned, probably the first boss on the field that isn't the final boss (technically he is, but at the same time he isn't), assuming you don't count the Helmaroc King. The imprisoned can be fought either by wailing on his toes directly, blowing them up with bombs, or later on, using your bow to shoot them off from a distance. And you have to beat him before he reaches the sacred temple.
@@linkskywalker5417 you can also completely ignore the toes and go above and jump down on his head and slash in the spike
The botw bosses may be open ended, but all four feel relatively the same and some still have their phases where you have to do a certain thing.
Yeah, I was gonna say, they are some of the most boring in the series for the exact opposite reason. “All strategies work” is just as mindless as “only one obvious strategy works” and they didn’t even get different design aesthetics to them, just different elementally themed props.
Also what everybody seems to call "boss fights" in BOTW (Lynels, Hinoxes etc) mostly felt like fancy regular enemy encounters, since they repeat a lot, and beating them creatively is actually harder than using the most basic and evident techniques
The only boss fight that was really compelling was the monk from the DLC
@@AmourEtRespect I'd argue that Thunderblight required some finesse too. Esp if you do it early on.
@@LooseAsADEUCE I do think that thunderight is the most interesting boss, and the hardest.
@@LooseAsADEUCE Thunderblight is only difficult because its weird (inexistant ?) pre-attack animation makes it unfairly hard to time counters, and because the mediocre camera controls and barely appropriate level design can make you lose focus during the metal spikes part.
But in the end, the only way to fight it is to die and retry until you find the 10 millisecond window to dodge+counter the main attack, then to use the magnet on the second phase. It's just like all the other boss fights mentionned in this video, but it's not even one of the good ones.
If anything, Waterblight is the only Ganon boss that lets you try different and equally challenging methods
Say what you want about Zelda bosses, but Stallord was a fun boss.
Who
@@cactusdip4680 Twilight Princess's Giant Bone Dragon-Thing boss that you fight in The Arbiter's Grounds. It's that time where Link became a semi-professional skateboarder.
Ah yes. Tony Lonk
@@kylepotts6784 nice
Stallord was one of the best ever
The Bosses in The Adventure of Link deviated by not being fun at all.
I find the final boss the most fun of them all... when you don't run to the corner.
It takes a lot until you master using the shield properly against the Iron Knuckles, seeing his sowrd appearing at his back first for you to rush block it, then the blue Iron Knuckles... after being able to defeat them without jumping (blocking all their attacks), you go to fight that blue armored chicken... after you master defeat even this enemy, you go to Shadow Link.
And let me tell you this... the Iron Knuckles, the blue Iron Knuckles and the Blue Armored Chicken are nothing compared to that boss... but if you managed to beat them in pure sword and shield, you'll get Shadow Link eventually.
Shadow Link is like the "final challenge of sword user enemies" of that game.
I am in a point of the game where I can beat him jumping the little as possible, and it is still too hard, even after "mastering" fighting him... but the most fun boss I've ever experienced in any Nes game, even Snes...
Fighting Shadow Link properly (and knowing how to block the majority of his attack with the shield) is like fighting Champion Gundyr in Dark Souls 3...
I do think some of the examples you provided at the beginning were a little meh, Jalhalla, Molgera, and Fyrus make use of multiple items at least, and especially for Fyrus, the solutions aren't as painfully immediately obvious. I feel like all these bosses needed were a second phase or so to shake things up, but not much else.
But generally, I do agree. The bosses were almost always WAY too easy, which is a bit unfortunate, and the only games with really good boss designs are the 2D games, and honestly, Spirit Tracks is pretty solid too
I do have to say though, while BotW has the potential to help shake things up, I don't think the bosses found in that game are very good. Versatile in how you tackle it, sure, but the fact is, that almost always ends up resulting in you just headshotting them a bunch and wailing on them afterwards, rinse and repeat with very little effort. As versatile as the approaches could be, funny enough, I think, after the very beginning of the game (Great Plateau with the Stone Talus), those bosses are almost even easier than other Zelda games.
I think a middleground would be great. The potential versatility of BotW, but with more unique approaches/requirements/appearances/items in general that the other games provide. With a second phase or two, as well.
BotW has shown Nintendo's willingness to make games not super easy and also allow for player freedom. I think they just need to meet in the middle of where the other games were, and it'll be perfect.
I agree, I felt BOTWs bosses and combat had a looseness that made engaging in most ways besides headshotting feel unsafe and generally unpleasant.
Yeah, I'd agree that BotW's bosses aren't really satisfying either, as by not testing the player on different things, it's super easy for the player to fall into a pattern of fighting every, single, boss, exactly the same way; and that's really not fun either. This is my biggest issue with open world games; they may let you tackle problems in lots of different ways, but they're ill equipped to encourage you to do so;
Personally, I feel the biggest issue with most zelda bosses is just them not being challenging enough overall. The issue presented here of only checking one skill is just one of the contributing factors here.
You need a balance between forcing the player to just repeat the same trick from the dungeon and just having a big enemy with lots of health. BoTW can't really lock bosses behind acquiring and being competent with specific tools, so it has to assume you have the bare minimum in both resources and knowledge. (This is my biggest gripe in most open world games, not just BoTW. The devs don't know what the hell the player will do first, which often translates to minimal diversity, since there's always the push to let the player do anything, after all, it's an open world game, but that means that the progression becomes... complicated to implement, and usually minimal. Every area becomes equally challenging, and they often can't demand any special equipment or knowledge. There are definitely ways around this, but they cost time and effort, and there's never enough to go around.)
the final DLC boss in BOTW was exactly the kind of boss i wanted more of. multiple phases, different ways to approach the fight, and interesting mechanics added just the variation i was looking for
Another problem is items and their relationship with durability. The fact that skyward sword allows you to upgrade everything and breath of the wild doesn't is a mistake, one that makes it low on my list to buy still, it feels like you should avoid interacting with its systems, which ALWAYS MAKES THE GAME SUCK, no matter the genre or decade released. I mean, a good example is the riot weapons, which only become more obsolete the further you are in game, and even if you don't do the divine beast, which make the enemies too durable for the weapons to handle due to low damage and durability, the low damage also makes you not want to use it for ganon, who you can attack right away, so what's its point? And then, there's only ever 4 sheilds in game for this massively important tribe that's still here, period, no refunds, so why use them? It just doesn't work in practice, and needs an overhaul to the skyward sword system of repairing and upgrading with materials and rupees, it was literally right there, this close to perfection, but nope, go duck yourself if you fight anything not required to die. The story and how you fight and move definitely carries it, but I'll never excuse bad execution of a system I feel was executed poorly, as it deserves better.
The thing is that most Zelda bosses from OOT and onwards were less of a boss and more of a puzzle. The focus of the bosses weren't the combat: it was on solving the puzzle on how to defeat the boss. It makes a bit of sense since you spend most of your time in dungeons solving puzzles. So, the perfect way to end a dungeon would be a puzzle (which in this case is the boss battle.)
Also, combat in plenty of Zelda games is something that you can do in the game, but not the focus of the game. So, since combat was so overly simplistic in Zelda games, it didn't make much sense to have boseese that relied too much on combat.
So, Nintendo made bosses in Zelda games to have a simplistic combat since they didn't want to make bosses where the combat was the important part of the fight: they just wanted to make a big puzzle to end each dungeon.
Hades actually does an amazing job of teaching players how to beat the bosses by introducing multiple enemies that feature the boss's attacks. Asterius has a charge attack? Put in chariot chargers that chase you forever until you make them run into a wall. Theseus aiming a spear at you? Learn the timing of the reticle from a Shade minion and dodge at the last second. You dont really notice at first but once you realize what the games doing, you see how amazingly crafted it is
Hell, even when they're in-pattern, the execution wildly varies between _yawn_ and top 10 bosses in the series. The big bone dragon is really cool, esp. with the fakeout.
It's a hard but necessary balance to keep in line with the "legend" of the series while still being unique, especially with bosses. Like if you're going to have Ganon in every other game, you can't use the same format every time. Twilight Princess' final boss had some new interesting segments with Ganon, but with other bosses like Ghoma I want to see some variation if you're having them in multiple games.
A Link Between Worlds has some interesting takes on the bosses, since there isn't really a key item but a slew of ones you can rent and later buy, then upgrade. Some bosses do necessitate the use of a specific item to reach or damage the boss but others can be fought however. The boss of the Thieves Den having you merge onto his shield was a neat way to incorporate the 2d mechanic
Well done link, you've mastered The Spinner! Now, put it away for most of the game.......what? Why are you looking at me like that?
Good point all around, although I think it's worth noting that this is partly a genre issue. Except for BOTW which is an intentional departure, Zelda is not a series with a heavy focus on combat, and I don't think it's a necessity that challenging = better when sometimes the purpose of a boss fight can be different than offering a challenge (such as telling a story or offering a puzzle). Not everything in video games should be analyzed through the lens of challenge, especially not a challenge in the sense of testing someone's reflexes/mastery of the battle system.
i always liked this system in zelda games though - the dungeons were always such a complete experience where you would learn new things and get new items and it would all build up to the final boss fight. you could learn what to expect and how to beat it as you played the dungeon. i was also very young, so even these "easy" boss fights weren't so easy for me.
that’s fair
I agree but also disagree in a way. I feel like the bosses themselves are usually fine. Because they are SUPPOSED to be the final exam on using that item you just got. I just don't like that it's ALL they are. I feel like just giving each boss a second phase that works differently would solve that.
It doesn't help that for many of the items that's also kinda the last time you use them. Sure there are your tried and true's that you will keep using throughout all the game like the bow and hookshot, but there's just as many one-ofs like the Spinner, Dominion Rod or usually Mirror Shield that after they have served their one purpose in that one dungeon, are basically just there to fill your item menu.
@@EskChan19 I agree. It's a good pattern that feels good when done satisfyingly, but it just needs to be spiced up.
The puzzle boss is a great concept, you just need to use the item you get more often after the boss and the boss needs to be more than just "Wait for boss to finish attacking, use item, attack".
tbh, i feel that BoTW relies too much on the "eye weakness" method, the achilles' heel pattern, imo majora's mask handle a lot better boss fights, specially the first and last
Funny how the 3D remaster of Majora's mask took the "Eye weakness" method instead, quite literally
Despite showing clips of Barinade, I actually quite like that boss even if it is very dependent on the dungeon item. I think what helps sets Barinade apart is the the speed of the fight and the variety in its patterns. Sure the entire fight utilizes the boomerang, but Barinade throws enough at you to where you have to pay attention, for an early boss anyways. Also the fight moves pretty quickly, the only time where Barinade cannot be attacked is the final phase but it only lasts a couple of seconds, compared to other bosses with much larger gaps between their vulnerability. Its not a perfect boss by any means, but I do think its one of the better examples of a boss being reliant on a single main item and still being fun, at least to me
Yeah, Barinade is an example of it being done *right.*
Barinade has three distinct phases and while, yes, most of them boil down to just using the boomerang, it's still varied enough to feel fresh.
I think the "Zelda pattern" is perfectly fine as the series is intended for all ages. Something like Darksiders is clearly intended for teens and up, so a more complex structure to fights likely won't overwhelm younger players of the intended audience.
Design Doc: “I love Zelda”
Me too!
I wish you talked more about majora's mask. Since every temple reward is an arrow the majority of the solutions is through the masks. The first boss could be hit in many different ways, and the second was more of a skill based challenge.
I feel like that zelda like game in the middle was harder because of frustration. Architecture blocking projectiles, and not having time ti react feels like bad coding. The best enemies are the ones who use the items, but don't make a point-click win situation, you need to understand how the item works first.
Odolwa in Majora's Mask is one of my favorite boss fights. It's super intense for a first boss, and there are a bunch of different ways to go about it, and lots of things to pay attention to.
Majora's Mask had a lot more thought put into it's bosses, as it's the only Zelda game where you can fight the same boss multiple times in the same play-through.
I think using the Zelda pattern rigidly works perfectly fine for all your bosses if the item isn't required to either deal damage or expose the boss' weak point. This means that you are encouraged to use the quest item, but using it is only required for a fraction of the fight.
Unworthy has several great examples. Gaston and the Dancer of Thorns both have attacks that will one-shot you unless you use a particular item (the hammer and the spirit bow), but you are otherwise free to fight however you want. Father Amandil, on the other hand, puts up a barrier in the middle of his arena that you can't get through unless you use the spirit bow to teleport through, but otherwise can be dealt with as offensively or defensively as you want since he teleports to both sides of the arena at will.
Iconoclasts had a similar fight against the Carver, where you have to charge up your electric wrench to avoid an attack, but otherwise got to fight however you wanted. Even if this fight did follow the Zelda pattern, it would still have great fights because most have a handful of singular 1-off gimmicks and tests of general skill rather than requiring the use of any particular item.
One side-point I've often considered is how this "lock and key" function of items against bosses hurts variety in another way. We have problems that require a specific item and only that, and at the same time we see items have little use outside of their specific locks. By the end of the games you're absolutely flooded with an arsenal of tools, but more often than not it's just your sword and whatever is absolutely required that you'll be using.
One of the more interesting bosses in the series was Ramrock from Oracle of Ages. He's a bit of a gimmick boss, but it shows how you can use obstacles to remind players about abilities they haven't used for a while. He actually requires several items to defeat as he summons different defenses, and every time you die you have to walk through a puzzle room that requires you to use items in the same order needed to defeat him.
You call it an issue, but I actually like this
I completely agree on the Minish Cap boss, but I completely disagree on Breath of the Wild.
In Breath of the Wild, instead of having a really epic sequence, all the enemies can be dealt with in the same way if you so choose.
Minish Cap really struck the balance the best.
I like getting a key-item in a dungeon and using it on the boss.
I can definitely understand getting you to use items you've gained previously as well as the new ones too, that IS really fun.
But just turning it into a "Oh you can just swipe swipe with your sword if you want, but you can also use bombs or whatever else, I don't care" isn't a winning formula.
I actually like the Skeleton boss in Twilight Princess where you use the spinner. The pattern is vaguely there, but the situation make it more exciting.
plus the fight just oozes cool factor, you're riding on the walls at like 100 mph while a floating beast skull shoots giant fireballs at you, and its weak point is the sword that was jammed into its forehead, the only way to dodge the fireballs is to fucking LAUNCH your ass through the air to the other wall before it hits you. You start the fight by using your skateboard to BREAK ITS GOTDAMN SPINE.
@@robonerd125 Yeah, the dodging make it a really excitin fight
Yeah, the Spinner is a really cool item to use. It's a real shame that it#s basically useless after that dungeon. I think you use it one more time in Hyrule castle to cross a broken staircase and that's it. Such a wasted item.
@@EskChan19 It has a few gear presses in the City in the Sky and a few overworld tracks for a piece of heart.
Honestly I have very little problem with the formula. I always saw the bosses more as puzzles than fights that were supposed to be challenging. I missed the formula a lot in BotW to be honest. There were some stinkers in the older games like the 2nd boss in Skyward Sword, but in general I thought they were more fun than BotW’s fights. Some of those just came off as damage sponges.
It also didn't help that all four dungeons in BotW had the same boss with slight variations. But that is sorta an unavoidable flaw with the game. They can't make the bosses super diverse because they don't know what you'll have available. You have to be able to effectively defeat the boss with a fully upgraded Master Sword... Or a mop. Because they don't know which one you are going to have when you enter. Which means, as long as you enter each dungeon with the same set of equipment... You can complete each boss in the exact same way. And you have no incentive to try a different strategy if you have the items to do what you did last time. You already know this strategy works, why would you do anything different and risk losing?
This reminds me a lot of one of Sid Meier's mantras: "Who's having the fun? The Designer or the Player?"
A lot of bosses that require one particular way to be defeated fall squarely in the former category.
This man woke up and chose violence
That’s the Rub, making a Boss Fight interesting and yet making it build on what you’ve learned so far.
That’s a real challenge.
Right. It's important to keep things fresh, but it's also important to keep things in a way that the player can figure them out, especially in case of a game like Zelda that is also targeted at children. The way Zelda does it, sure it's samey and predictable but that also means that you don't really get stuck in a "What am i supposed to do now?" kinda way. If you get the Bow in a Dungeon, you can assume that you will use it against the boss. If you shuffle that up too much it might be very hard for players to figure out what to do. Especially for kids who might get too frustrated if the secret key to that bossfight is that one item you got 5 dungeons ago and never used since.
Just want to point out that in Ocarina most bosses have multiple weaknesses, not just the dungeon item.
On Gohma, you can kill her on the ground with Deku nuts and jump attacks, on Volvagia you can use the bow to hit him multiple times in the air and kill it with one hit of the hammer.
Even the Witch Sisters you can use the longshot to reach them faster having more time to atack.
In the last Nintendo leak, remains of an Boss Rush mode were found for OoT, similar to the one on the 3ds version.
So, while everyone can kill the bosses figuring out the puzzle of how to use the key item of the dungeon to damage them, more skilled players will have fun trying to speedrun the fights and explore every single option they have to beat them faster each playthrough.
I like the simple predictability of dungeon bosses. I like the general ease of the games. I don't really feel it's something that needs to be fixed. But I also tend to dislike fight mechanics in general and thought the bosses in BotW where dull and unmemorable, so I'm pretty biased against it. I'd be ok with more LttP style bosses where the item isn't as vital to completing the fights, but still have variety in how they're approached
Mobs accompanying the boss don't seem like they would jive well with the lock-on mechanics in most 3D Zeldas.
As for the predictably of using the dungeon's key item, I'm a big fan. It could just be the limited ability that sprites have to convey information, but a key component of the boss fights in early 2D games was trying every item in your inventory to damage the boss.
Knucklemaster in Link Between Worlds did something cool because that dungeon has no designated item. That fight relied purely on exploiting the game's central mechanic of merging into walls. A few bosses in Minish Cap are also centered around the game's central mechanic of shrinking to go into small openings, although the boss from Fortress of Winds still requires the dungeon's item in addition to the shrinking mechanic.
Also, the two main antagonists of the Oracle games, Onox and Veran, have really creative fights that use unexpected item combinations rather than the standard sword and light arrows Zelda games seem obsessed with. In the Onox fight, you have to use the rod, which isn't really used in combat anywhere else, to safely swipe away Onox's shield, and then in the second phase you use the cape to jump up to reach the weak point. With Veran, you actually use mystery seeds and the switch hook to separate her from Ambi's or Nayru's body so you can hit her, and the way you figure out the mystery seed trick is actually by paying attention to the plot of the game itself.
Speaking of the Oracle games, in Seasons when you fight Medusa Head you actually don't need to use the dungeon item at all and can just beat her up with your sword, but if you do use the dungeon item there's actually a secret trick you can use if you're clever enough. I also recall the Gohma fight in that game being way more complex than any other Gohma fight, with a variety of ways to kill her.
The takeaway from all this is that the portable Zelda games need more credit for their awesome boss fights. I can think of a few more examples, but this comment has already gotten pretty long.
I was just about to write about those! I think the best incarnation of that was Ramrock, from the last dungeon in Ages. It's the same old "use an item to make the boss vulnerable," but it switches its weaknesses as the fight goes on. You can throw bombs at it, then pull back its fists with the Power Bracelet, then hit it with the Seed Shooter. It's the same pattern, but making you think about your set of items as a toolbox, rather than just having one item for the dungeon, goes so far towards spicing up a bland encounter.
I actually killed the first phase of Onox via damage tanking. I could not figure out how to kill him, lol.
Majora's Mask I've always felt like was an antithesis to this, though I suppose it's mainly due to the fact that the dungeon item in each area are the elemental arrows. This, however, makes some of the most memorable fights since you need to think on your feet and adapt to the bosses. Goht will always be such a cool fight, even if speedrunning has taken that edge off a little.
Never really had a problem with this. Zelda games were never really designed around their combat, so ending each dungeon on a more puzzle-based encounter is a better solution in my eyes. Some of them could stand to be more difficult, but I much prefer the item-based design compared to a combat-oriented one, especially since most Zelda games are fairly rudimentary in that regard.
Plus, it gives more weight to the final boss, which is typically more of a combat test than anything else. A 1v1 fight with Ganondorf is a lot more appealing when you haven't really had a chance to go toe-to-toe with any other enemy in the game.
Majora's Mask originally had a bunch of bosses you could take out with numerous different methods _including_ both the transformation mask of the area and the dungeon's tool, but not requiring either necessarily. Remake shoehorned all of the boss fights into following the pattern more strictly, even adding eyeballs to serve as targets to all the bosses because eyeball = shoot with arrow.
The Gyorg pair from Minish Cap (Yes, they share their name with the Majora's Mask boss) is one of my favorite bosses in the franchise, I'm glad to see them get analyzed as an example of the series breaking its repetitive boss pattern!
The best part has gotta be how the fight gradually escalates with the male gyorgs (blue) adding something new every time, by the end it feels overwhelming trying to make and maintain the Clone Links as Male Gyorgs try to ram into you while relentlessly shooting orbs from all angles, while the babies occassionally fly at you in a formation. Coupled with the atmosphere of riding the Gyorgs high up in the sky while they fly at high speed, and the risk of falling, its a thrill!
It may not be super challenging, but its certainty an exciting experience with a decent challenge.
Man, I wish more bosses learned from the Gyorg pair
I totally thought the pattern you would decry was "wait for big glowy weak spot, hit big glowy weak spot, repeat."
I feel that out of all the games in the series, no Zelda game suffers from the Zelda boss pattern than the original Hyrule Warriors. Every single boss always had one or two moves in their repertoire that you had to wait for an opening on in order to knock them down to open their weakpoint gauge up, which wasn't too bad in the main story where most of the bosses are only fought like two times at most, but when you start going into the optional side modes, not only are you dealing with a boss in at least every other stage, but sometimes they even start throwing multiples at all at once, which combined with the side modes' ranking system on top of that, really made completing them an incredible chore and really soured my opinion on the game overall in the long run.
Age of Calamity improved on this immensely just by increasing the amount of viable options you have during combat. Yes, you can fight bosses like the original by waiting for their weak point openings, but you can also open their gauge by doing stuff like hitting them with Poe rods or shooting them in the head like in BOTW, or using the environment to your advantage, like freezing enemies that are in the water with Cryonis or burning them by throwing bombs at nearby explosive barrels. And you can even extend the weakpoint gauge length using stasis, or make it go down faster by using elemental advantages like fire on an ice enemy. It's still not a perfect system, but it's so much faster and way more satisfying to take these foes down using all your abilities to your advantage.
We left it out because it was a spinoff but the bosses in the original Hyrule Warriors were by far the worst thing about that game. They're just an awful drawn out waiting game of weaken and attack. Even when they tried to mix it up with multiple item weaknesses for Ganon, it was still an awful fight because switching items was so slow for how short the opportunity windows are.
Hyrule Warriors isn't even a Zelda game, it's a Warriors game. WTF?!
So, don't do the "one item, one kill" method, basically. I can agree with that. After all, the best puzzles are the ones with multiple solutions.
I would say this pattern started in Link's Awakening rather than Ocarina of Time
It did, but it wasn't as stand out.
It was a pre-pattern if you will.
I remember in Majora's Mask, the game expected you to use the transformation masks to fight the bosses. But I was always terrible at controlling the Goron and Zora Links, yet I could still beat Goht and Georg because there was always more than one way to fight them. I think the first boss Odolwa was the best designed. It was early in the game, so your options were limited, but all the options were valid. And he was smart enough to try to block and counter them right back.
I would say Twilight Princess is the main culprit for this. I think Majora's Mask does a good job at going back to the style of A Link to the Past. Also, I feel like the comparison of Gohma and King Dodongo is a little oversimplified. If you haven't played all the Zelda games where you need to feed bombs to big lizards then it's a decently interesting puzzle, and I would say all the child dungeons in OoT are just an extended tutorial, hence why the change for Phatom Ganon makes sense. And personally, while they aren't overly complicated, I feel like most of the bosses in Zelda have enough nuance like you talked about that they're still engaging even if they're easy (even TP has its moments). While BotW was great in how flexible the bosses were, I felt like the Ganons and Lynels were just variations on the same fight. The Taluses and Hinox were very creative though, even if they got to be overly easy.
Overall you make good points on boss design, good video.
Yeah, the adult bosses in Ocarina are a lot more varied - Phantom Ganon uses bow (or hookshot) for the first phase, but has the tennis second phase; Volvagia can be hammered, but you can also use your sword; Amorpha does rely on the (upgraded) hookshot; Bongo Bongo does let you use the hover boots and lens of truth, but I find the boots make aiming harder and once you know the pattern, the lens is entirely redundant - all you need is projectile (bow/hookshot) and melee (sword/hammer); Twinrova is very much about the mirror shield. So that's two of five that fit the pattern.
Majora's Mask 3D does change the bosses to be a lot more traditional (which is one reason why I only class it as a net improvement on the original, not a strict improvement)
Ah childhood, my first Zelda game was link to the past, I started playing zelda before I learned to read. After countless deaths and restarts, I finally made it to the first boss, the guard with the flail. You’re supposed to use the boomerang to stun him so you can get close for some classic sword action. Since I couldn’t read and the boomerang wasn’t needed to reach the boss, I never knew how to equip it. When nothing seemed to work and I was down to 1 heart, I desperately started throwing the pots around the jail at him. It took nearly every jug but eventually I was triumphant. He is now known as pot boss to me and is my favorite boss of the entire series.
The setup of A Link Between Worlds does a wonderful job with the boss fights. Yes it still is mostly the “Zelda Formula” but for the most part you need to acquire the key item before the dungeon and use it to enter the dungeon. And Because you just need a lot of rupees to get a key item, there isn’t a set order of which dungeons to go to first. Within the dungeons, you pretty much use that one key item for the puzzles but in this game you also have to use the main mechanic of this game in every dungeon: turning into a painting and moving within the walls. It’s such a brilliant mechanic that is used everywhere in the overworld and in every dungeon. So in the boss fights you switch between 3 mechanics: the key item, the sword/shield, and the going in the wall ability. It’s a great use of adding another mechanic to add more depth to fights and puzzles. And in Lorule Castle, the final dungeon, and against the final boss, it uses those mechanics brilliantly! No spoilers! It’s one of my favorite Zelda final bosses.
I see Darksiders and I press like.
the use of the “boss defeated” music from twilight princess in the outro is a really nice touch ❤️
Seriously thought this was going to be about the Sierpinski triangle given the title and thumbnail. But this is just as interesting!
I don't always agree with every point, but dang I love this channel. So much thought and still a lot of fun.
I personally have always really liked how Zelda used items post the 2D era. To me it was always fun to have new items and it’s why I like the older style Zeldas over BOTW. For me, Zelda feels like an Old-Adventure game (akin to Monkey Island or Myst, etc). You get these items to help you with the task at hand. Majorca’s Mask really expanded on the adventure side of the game which is why I think MM is one of (if not the best) Zelda game in the series
Honestly, I never had a problem with the pattern. And... thought it was kind of a shallow observation. For me the issue with Zelda bosses was a matter of difficulty, not structure. You know, being more aggressive, having more demanding attack patterns, force the player to move around the environment more, dealing more damage, etc. I never thought using the dungeon item was a flaw.
And honestly, it's funny how you put BotW as if "got it right", when in reality it's one of the most criticized aspects of the game. Not in a "well, they're not perfect" kind of way, but in a "man, these bosses suck!" kind of way. While Twinrova is an iconic boss in OOT because how novel the use of the Mirror Shield was, even if the novelty wares off, people already has forgotten what the fight against the Ganon Blights was. And mostly because fighting them came down to "just hit it until it dies". So no, having to use one specific item to create an opening is not the issue here. If anything, taking that away exposes the real issue even faster.
There are exceptions, of course, but those are... precisely the bosses that do what I mentioned before: the Lynel, Thunderblight Ganon and the DLC monk still have the "hit it until it dies" strategy, but their attack patterns and aggressiveness is what makes them compelling.
One of my favourite boss fights in Zelda style games is Ninetails from Okami. Yes, you do have to use the Thunder ability you just picked up in Oni Island but I like how it forces you to act quickly as the boss can draw on the same canvas you are drawing on all game. That to me is an ingenious twist on the whole design and its why that boss battle is my favourite in the entire game.
Monk Maz Koshia can be identified apart from his clones thanks to the camera feature of the sheikah slate since its the only targetable entity there
ganondorf in twlight princess has a crippling fear of fishermen
King Bulbin is one of the rare bosses in any zelda game that comes back for a fair fight 3 out of 4 times
Always weird to think that King Bulbin is the closest Zelda gets to having a Vergil-like rival character aside from Ghirahim if he even counts.
@@DesignDoc twilight princess is one of the few games to also feature mounted combat bosses(one of them being the dungeon item and the other being the final boss)
one of my favorite Zelda bosses is Blind the Theif from Link Between Worlds. it's interesting because you don't really use a single item to defeat him. instead there's 2 phases. the first phese involves you attack him to get his guard up, only for you to merge onto the shied and sneak behind him, which is pretty clever. but the second phase has Blind toss the sheild aside as it turns into a all out brawl. it's a pretty easy fight, but it's fun for how it shifts half way through.
Happy to see Minish Cap mentioned. Lots of memorable bosses there.
I’ve been waiting for this. Thank you!
I think CrossCode's earlier bosses fall into the Zelda Pattern, but the Break meter means that most bosses can have the meter chipped down even when they're not stationary. The later bosses don't use the Zelda pattern since by that point you already have all 4 elements, so there's not much more the boss can test you on except raw skill. Actually, that makes me think that the fact that the elements are treated like dungeon items but modify your existing abilities rather than add new ones helps it avoid the Zelda Pattern throughout most of the game. There are 2 late-game bosses that have short mini-game sections that directly test various mechanics where you can't damage the boss, but there's so much going on that it doesn't feel like just waiting.
Banjo-Tooie does this a bit by requiring abilities earned in the same level (Targitzan, Mr. Patch, Lord Woo Fak Fak), but may have even more bosses which don't (Old King Coal, Terry, Weldar, Willy & Billi, Minjy Jongo). Although even some of those require specific moves despite acquiring them long before their fights. I think Minjy Jongo allows for the most creativity, which is perfect as an end-game boss!
Plotting to run a zelda rpg that's a love letter to all the games. This has been a useful video.
Majora's mask had some pretty cool bosses too, in n64 version. Like most of them were up to you, you could either use the item you acquired or smash him with your sword/bow/bombs. Even the final boss can be played as a normal boss , you dont have to use fierce deity.
I really wish you talked about all of the original Majora's Mask bosses.
Surprised you didn't mention Majora's Mask, that game's bosses were really good in not having a single defined answer to defeating them (at least until the 3DS remake decided to ruin them...). Odalwa especially comes to mind as a boss that you can utilize numerous different strategies to defeat.
Majora’s Mask (the original, not the 3DS remake) does this well. Two bosses that immediately come to mind are Odolwa and Twinmold. In the Odolwa fight, anything goes. Any item you have access to can be used, and many have an effect. You aren’t forced to use the Deku mask or the Hero’s bow. Same with Twinmold, you have the option of using the light arrows you just found, or using the Giant’s Mask. Even if the Giant’s Mask isn’t used elsewhere, it’s a fun fight because you get to the end of a difficult dungeon almost at the end of a difficult game, and get to wail on the boss.
The Zelda-triangle doesn't really allow for much risk-reward either since you're locked into using dungeon-item and sword.
Games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta have a fun risk-reward. Sure, you're pretty safe when you fire your guns from a distance but the damage is comparatively pathetic compared to melee.
Getting close to the enemies to whack them with your melee attacks is much more rewarding but requires you to risk receiving more damage if you fail to dodge in time.
The flow of their attacks also feel more smooth than Link's, since they have techniques that changes the way they move and initiate attacks. Zelda items could add to Link's general movement. Like Roc's Feather making Link jump 2 meters in the air, pegasus boots making Link blink 2 meters ahead, pegasus seeds increasing Link's movement speed. Power Bracelet allowing Link to block stronger attacks but it slows down the rate at which he attacks. Heck, the hookshot can be used to initiate melee attacks from afar (the downside being the slow travel time). Just ideas.
Also, fun bosses:
The mini boss from the pirate ship in Skyward Sword.
Ghirahim from Skyward Sword.
Dark Link from OoT since its health scales with the player and there are multiple ways to beat it.
Strong agree on this, and there's a solution. Make what are currently the bossfights into minibosses. As soon as you pick up the dungeon item, you get some puzzles to show what it does and make sure you know to use it, then you have to solve those puzzles but with enemies in the room who show you what the item does to enemies, and then you get a miniboss. The miniboss needs you to use your new dungeon item in a tricky way to let you get the chance to sword it. That's your miniboss/tutorial for the item. The boss at the end of the dungeon shares the weakness of the miniboss, yes, but he's not here for a demonstration. He's aware of his weakness. Use dungeon item on him the first time, get some hits in. Fine. He gets up and his pattern changes. Now he has Defense A against dungeon item. You've got to defeat Defense A somehow, by solving a puzzle in the boss room. That makes him vulnerable to the dungeon item again. Hit him, smack goes the sword. He gets up, now he has Defense B to stop you from breaking Defense A. So now you have to solve Defense B, by exploiting the other enemies attacking you. Then solve Defense A again, then dungeon item, then sword. He gets up again, with Defense C. Now you have to exploit a dungeon room hazard to break Defense C, to get to Defense B, to get to Defense A, so you can use the dungeon item, and hit him with a sword. Now it's time for the real test. He uses two or more defenses at once, switches them up, uses them to cover each other rock paper scissor style, and does it all much faster. You're going to need all your cunning and skill to break through and land your final hit. The same thing never works twice in a row. Everything you do that works, the boss comes up with a counter.
One thing I like about Zelda bosses. Most of the times it is easy to figure out how to defeat them. I hate it when a game throws a boss at you with no indication what their weak spot is or sometimes even if you do damage to him/her and you are just dodging attacks for the next 10 minutes and have no idea what you are supposed to do. I recently played Mdk2 again and it has a lot of terrible bosses.
I guess the ideal would be, having to figure out yourself how to damage it but getting subtle hints when and where to attack.
I would love to see you make a video on the pikmin series, it has memorable bosses, and alot of unique mechanics. Its definitely one of my childhood favorites. Each version is unique but all give the same indescribable vibe of killing monsters with a hoard of "ants" and collecting loot.
They are basically console RTS games inspired by gardening.
We do highlight Pikmin quite a bit in our Enemy Design video.
I don’t know if they count as boss battles, but in age of calamity, there is a lot more to worry about, position is crucial, some enemy attacks give you options, for example, when the Lynel blows up and creates a fireball, there are three options. One: you can stand right next to him and parry the attack to create an opening, however if you miss the parry, you take a lot of damage, two, you can try to flurry rush by trying to dodge the attack, but if you mess up, you take damage, three, you can stay out of the attack range, sacrificing the opportunity to deal a lot of damage, because after the attack is over and you get close to the enemy, they have already recovered from the attack and are moving on. That’s just an example, and there more to consider in age of calamity, for example sometimes you could be fighting against the “boss” while fending of common enemies closing in on you, sometimes you are targeted by multiple “bosses” and sometimes you handle all three things at the same time.
My biggest issue with Zelda bosses is that so many of the actions are binary. There is no room for player expression or skilful execution - it's just 'hit X to make Y happen'. The better bosses have more expressive interactions, but there is a critical need for more involved combat mechanics in the boss fighting.
Breath of the Wild really opened up the combat space here, giving the player room for skilful execution, but also veered far away from what feels like a Zelda boss. Just like with its dungeon design, the sweet spot is probably somewhere between the two.
Monster boy was very refreshing. In a take on Wonderboy:the dragons curse, you gain new forms with new abilities. But the bosses involve using all of your abilities. in a way, you have to be skilled in transforming between all of your forms and weapons to beat them
what about bosses that learn your fight over time?
during the 1st minute or 2, the boss will have 0 idea of what he must do, but as you keep fighting it, the boss will learn more and more of your actions and would try to exploite them so he could get a better advantage over you.
It's been years since I played it so I might be remembering it differently but I recall Okami had the bosses have multiple means of getting you to use different celestial brush moves. Slashing back projectiles or opening the guard, redirecting elements in either their attacks or the battlefield, slowing down time with mist, using vines for mobility, and requiring sunrise just for a dramatic flair at the end.
I think the Zelda boss pattern is just a symptom of the issue a lot of Zelda games have where the items are not so much an expansion of an arsenal but largely are treated as contextual puzzle solutions.
And now we have Tears of the Kingdom, which returned to the formula somewhat, but also keeps BOTW's formula of you being allowed to tackle a fight however you want. The bosses have very clear 'use this sage's ability to open the weak spot', but I've noticed there's also *other* ways to do the same thing (i.e. Any elemental attacks will work to weaken Queen Gibdo, not just Riju's lightning, using recall on Marbled Gohma's rocks, ect.) and to that effect it feels more like older games where the tools you have are more of a suggestion, and have use outside of their dungeons too.
Pandora's Tower does bosses extraordinarily well. Like BOTW, you have most of your equipment at the beginning of the game, but each dungeon teaches you different mechanics with your existing techniques. In this way, each boss is a test of the skills you learned in the dungeon, but also challenges your general skills too, and changes the pace up.
Nice shout out to Darksiders. Back when it came out, people were quick to call it a God of War clone.
In Oracle of Ages there's a boss fight in Queen Ambi's palace against the Oracle of Ages, Nayru, possesed by the antagonist Veran. You don't get any items in Queen Ambi's palace; it's just a big "stealth" puzzle. For 10 year old me it wasn't obvious how to defeat the boss and I ultimately got stuck because that particular boss didn't follow "The Zelda Pattern". The Zelda series fan base has a vast age range and so I can imagine it being a reliable method to give younger audiences what they need to get through a game. I think the real issue is making the use of those items more interesting/fun to use in boss fights. Someone else in the comments mention Ghirahim as an exception to the pattern but the Wii-Motion Plus controls were new to the system and the whole game was kinda this meta version of the "The Zelda Pattern" where you kept using your new key item (motion controls) to beat the game. Girahim was interesting and challenging to fight with the new controls because the controls themselves were intersting and fun to use. You won't have that same experience with the Switch port of Skyward Sword because the controls just aren't as good and often times frusterating which then makes Girahim less interesting and less fun to fight.
As for Ocarina of Time, 3D was new and so it's likely that despite the solutions to the boss battles being obvious the new challenge of playing a 3D game likely compensated for this the same way I that think the Wii-Motion Plus controls did for Skyward Sword.
I think Odolwa was a very underrated boss fight. It has a lot of unique attack patterns and you are expected to utilize your bow, bombs, or the deku mask, all of which were given to you prior to the dungeon. It has the Breath of the Wild enemy design philosophy while still testing your knowledge on the weapons you've had. I think it especially works in the context of Majora's Mask, where you can fight the bosses again later, with even more equipment. While it lacks in weapon variety, you get the transformation masks, which greatly change the gameplay. And all strategies can be viable, as long as you can properly rely on your reaction to their attacks.
12:00 Oracle of Seasons would like to have a word with you
Okami is very similar with its bossfights (use the power you got from the dungeon to beat it), but, depending on how far you are in the game, you could always try out the powers you got before that to gain an advantage at some point. The combat is also different with three weapon types, many skills to learn and items to equip. Sometimes bosses even had some special quirks, like certain times where you can't use your powers.
BotW's bosses broke that mold... And are also the least memorable bosses in Zelda history. A few years after playing, I remember the Ganon fight. That's it. Its been nearly 20 years since I played Windwaker, but I still remember many of its fights and locations.
My first thought was "What bosses?"
I find it hilarious that even as you talk about them, you don't seem to notice that the Twilight Princess bosses all need additional steps other than "Insert Bomb Here". Often with added stages and multiple items.
Also, even funnier, you don't mention how the Dungeon's midbosses tend to present the ACTUAL raw combat challenge. Like Darknut.
12:24 - "No Boss in breath of the Wild is about one key item" >Shows boss that requires a specific Slate Power to beat.
On the note of windwaker gohma. I feel insentivized to say that on my first playthrough I didn't know you could lock onto things with the grappling hook until tower of the gods, which meant that I didn't know you could pull gohma down. I tried doing it while zoomed in, but to no avail as I was terrible at aiming, so I thought you had to wait for them to attack, and then retaliate. Also, I think one way to fix the pattern is to just give every boss a second, more open ended phase. Let's say for example Fyrus, a boss that currently has no second phase. You could have given him one where the glowing point on his head disappears, and players could stun him with the gale boomerang and then do the iron boots thing, chase him into a corner and then do the iron boots thing, or for those explorative players, if you aim at the same spot, but without the helpful glow to show you where to aim, you could do phase 2 exactly like phase one. If more zelda bosses had unique second phases, they would likely be a lot more memorable
I feel like the Imprisoned in Skyward sword did a great job of breaking this pattern. I like how you can attack from both above and below. I just wish it wasn't such a crap boss! And fighting it three times was not fun.
The problem is that Phantom Ganon phase 2 is also a point where a player could get hopelessly stuck as the intuitive reaction to his energy balls is to dodge or use the shield and try to use the bow, not to hit the energy with the sword - which had been taught as being a *BAD* idea by Jabu Jabu's electrified enemies. The way the bosses are used to test your understanding of what came earlier might be formulaic, but that formula is there intentionally to teach an observant player - and I think part of what's so appealing about Zelda games to people who might not be so good at more reaction-based combat in games. Though there is too much emphasis on "Use key item to win" rather than "Keep expanding upon tactics learned and built upon in this dungeon to win" - which would be why the Pallace of Winds boss works so well. The first phase of Phantom Ganon is also more than just using the bow, it's using the bow in the context of knowing which Ganon to attack, which calls back subtly to a combination of the poe paintings and the purple poe's duplicates - a smart and much less obvious tutorial. The Water Temple boss is also more complex than you give it credit, because it is the first time you're required to use the hookshot/longshot to pull something towards you, rather than to pull yourself to it - a logical extrapolation that the player must intuit. The Skyward Sword Fire Temple boss is also more complex than the simple item use when fighting King Dodongo by adding in the element of timing when using bombs, which the player made use of earlier in the dungeon when rolling a bomb up a hill - except this time you're doing that while trying not to die. It's also worth remembering that if OoT didn't get the player familiar with the combat applications of many different items, it would leave them in a very sticky situation when reaching Ganon and losing the Master Sword - which the player has been taught is how you finish bosses, a nice little bait and switch subversion of the trope.
I'd say loz mm has a heavy divergence from the Zelda tradition of bosses. Oldawa is a straight up normal sword fight that you could use the bow optionally but you can still fight him normally and because he's replayable coming back with more tools and stronger weapons makes him an easy fight to deal with if you need to beat his dungeon in the limited three days you have. Goht (I think that's how it's spelled) while still being gimmicky having you use the goron mask to defeat him still has different options you can use like using fire arrows or the fierce deity. Majora's fight though I'd is a really nice fight if you ask me if you don't have the fierce deity mask it's becomes a test to the skill you've acquired the past experiences. You can say majora is a gimmick boss but the gimmick is a secret and optional which I really love about it.
true, i think you're right that the main core of the problem is that most of the time you're only really presented with one layer of 'puzzle' in any given bossfight, and also because 90% of the time it's solution is using the respective dungeon item you recieved to solve it and only that dungeon's item (barring the sword but that doesn't really count as an item as such) so you're already halfway to the solution when you start, another problem is that so many of the 'puzzles' are rehashed the same way in every game "oh, i got a bow, i wonder if i'm going to have to shoot something with a giant eye?"
Two things i think would be really good for spicing up bosses would be:
first) if there was more item interactions, meaning exponential interactions with each new tool you get, so sure you got the bow this dungeon, but you can experiment and see how it interacts with your other items, like lodged arrows can act as targets for your bomerang or you can use different swings with your hammer when you're wearing iron boots that can't without them because they would overballance you,
second) reduce telegraphing of items significance before they're requred, so introduce items sooner than the dungeon/boss they're actually needed for, so that players become familiar with them through experience rather than a guantlet of puzzles where they're the solution to all of them, so that when you figure out what item to use it's through your own brainwork rather than because it's been the answer to the last seven puzzles.
It's funny because that zelda formula is what me and my friend like about the game. And that is also one of the reasons non of use like Breath of the wild.
starfox adventures bosses, galdon-firebolt, red eye king- quake, and then theres the signature shooting from the vehicle, ad then theres metroid prime bosses who test your new equipment but also forces you to use the old equipment... aside from the obvius morph ball bombing
There's goht in majora's mask. The fire arrows are only needed to wake the boss up. And the chase mechanics are pretty cool
Personally, I find the pattern to be fine. As long as they make the boss mix things up part way through. Like instead of just letting you abuse its weakpoint in the same fashion as you did before. It actually starts to learn and make you find a new way to use the item on it. Nothing wrong with pattern based bosses. But to make them interesting, they should evolve new tactics around it as the fight goes on.
Koloktos in skyward sword is a perfect example of this. After you beat its weakpoint enough. It basically says "Enough!" and actually reinforces its weakspot. Making you have to find a new way to hit it.