“Reylo is not more important than racism” thank you! As a woc I’m exhausted with as you say the flattening of the discussion of race and misogyny in fandom. Sometimes it is sad to see the level of harassment certain shippers and fans can get, but that article rubbed me the wrong way for a lot of the reasons you pointed out. Meanwhile fans of color and actors of color endure harassment and racism and that conversation always gets brushed aside and neglected. It’s an isolating experience. It’s like you say, it’s hard to feel solidarity with the white section of fandom sometimes because it’s like they have blinders on.
Yes, but the article wouldnt have so overreacted of it werent as serious insults BECAUSE racism is a serious subject which shouldnt be thrown around. The article just makes the point that women in all kind of media are critized for what they like to consume and takes Reylo JUST AS AN EXAMPLE. It just stated that this shippers were called rascist because they were shipping The woman with A WHITE MAN. But that comment can be racist to us you indicate that you care what kind of skin colour the charactere has instead of the whole charactersation. It can be totally critized that Finn for example wasnt cast as the protagonist especially because they had him in the marketing as the protagonist and taht they AGAIN casted two "white" characters. This is legit as Hollywood often has "woke" as their marketing key but sometimes refuses to act like it. But this has nothing to do with the ship.
@@tracysimms8701 Maybe yeah Sorry. I just commented on the one comment above. I dont think that a groupe should be taken more serouisly than a real issue matter (like fight against racism) but unfortunatly such overreaction are created by throwning words (when people have to deal with real racism today badly not only online) like racist to a groupe cause you didnt like the dynamic they are invested in. Also this groupe represented the question is fiction allowed to show a relationship which has problematic circumstances.
It disgusts me that Disney capitalized off racist "fan" outrage for marketing from the jump, first with John Boyega and then Kelly Marie Tran, used the actors as props, didn't do shit to protect them from harassment, and never gave their characters the development they deserved.
As a long term fan of doctor who, it hurts me how much I've internalized hate for Martha. She has been one of the strongest and most competent companions of the Doctor, but when I was growing up and reading people trash her, i just took it because that's how people talked about black women all the time. Now looking back, Marth was a better doctor than the doctor! Saved the whole damn world more than once, and was an ACTUAL doctor, and fine af. There was nothing wrong with her other than the writers making her love for the doctor tragically unrequited and made sure to shove in our faces that this white man fell for a 19 year old white girl, but was fully unattracted to a sexy black doctor. It's why I'm so scared that they've hinted at a future black female doctor in the new series. I REALLY want to see it happen, but damn my heart is weak. Even the white female doctor got called a whore and bitch, a BLACK female doctor?? I'm not ready.
@@Allyenna it makes 100% sense. The episode where he and Martha are stuck in the past, she as a maid and he having to forget who he was is what explains this dynamic to me. He so comfortably fell for the next woman that wasnt her, and proceeded to literally never even look at her. The entire episode it was her job to try to get him to see her and remember who he was, and it was like he was aggressively ignoring her, even when what she says starts to make sense. The bitch went from doctor to maid and didnt even get an apology from the doctor for having to watch him love up on the next white woman to make him feel warm and bothered. It was very painful to watch, and I think after that I just questioned why she'd stay. The doctor always did everything to make all the companions feel special, and for some reason he just expected Martha to handle herself and be grateful.
@@Allyenna And it's hardly talked about that shes the only companion who did this. Chose herself over the doctor. Even Amy and Clara for all their bravery chose him. And think its because Martha got his worse side honestly, so she wasnt entranced like the rest. She not only picked herself but her family when other companions were leaving home to follow a mad man for years without prioritizing family
I hate their dynamic and I have no idea why they chose to frame it that way. Martha is a good character and her actress is awesome in other things especially Sense8. I always read it that the Doctor wasn't ready for a new connection because he was still mourning Rose which is fine but unfair to Martha as a new companion with high potential. Martha deserved better.
Completely agree with you. I was super into 10xrose and never gave Martha a chance at first. Until the episode where he has to live as a human with dormant memories. When he as a human fell for a random white lady, I realized my negative feelings towards Martha came from toxic shipping goggles and not seeing her as a character on her own. Now, Martha is one of my favorite DW characters period. I can't really rewatch new who because of the way they treated their black characters, especially Mickey and Martha. They deserved so much better.
It infuriates me how John Boyega/Finn has been treated throughout the years. And the fact that the people spewing that hate had the nerve to cry "bullying" after he went off is so ridiculous it'd be laughable if it wasn't damaging. The ending portion of this video was really compelling. You are completely justified in getting emotional with how rampant, yet brushed off these issues have been in favor of "easier" topics like Reylo. And to co-opt certain language for said topics is just a slap in the face. I wish people could just take a step back and realize the hurt and isolation it causes. Thank you for speaking on this (Also, zutara for life lol)
😢It's hard to be a black girl and fandom knowing that you probably got to look for OC's that are black or purposely look for content shape to yourself and shipping is so much harder.
Thank you!!! SOMEONE HAS TO MENTION IT. I find it so frustrating how white washed stories in the YA section is. It's always the same tropes. Regular [white] teenage girl/guy who's hobbies in the guy's case are video games [or maybe card games, sports or cars], and in the girl's case ....well a lot of stories don't even get that far in addressing a characters interests outside of family and fling you straight into the action. It's frustrating. I have to go out of my way to look for an OC that is a WOC and consider myself lucky if in my fandom I'll find more than 2 put of 10,000 stories that fit the bill, [and the stories don't get deleted by the site, I wonder why they do that? HMMM] The worst part is when you can tell the author is either diluting the narrative or isn't a POC at all in how they handle bringing in the culture they're portraying. So many of the [very few] stories about bilingual characters out there are so unrealistic it hurts, and so often the physical description of these characters are white washed too, no one wants to talk about the Mayan noses, coily kinky hairs, or the flat faces. No if their face is flat they have a "strong" nose, if they're black you'll hear references to their "dark" skin in two variations "dark and caramel", anything in between doesn't exist on the shade spectrum, Hispanics of Latin american descent never get described with the a red undertone in their skin or their distinctive noses. It's always the same and that's boring. There's a reason I haven't bout much fantasy stories recently. They're all the same white washed, "western" narrative.
When you mentioned Merthur I suddenly felt so guilty because I had never even considered the racist hate that Angel and Arwen fans must have received and I am a huge Merthur fan. Thank you for making this video and articulating something that I had not thought about much before. It is important for those of us who are not WOC to acknowledge the problems in our fan communities.
Thank you for mentioning the part about how Reylos take shots at Finnrey/Finn. The problem with the article that it was only coming from the Reylo perspective and what they experienced. And didn't really bother to ask Non-Reylo fans, including black and brown women about our experiences in fandom. When it comes to facing harassment, bullying or racism.
Reylos NEED to play the part of the victims. But they're often the offenders and not the people being offended.. The same goes for the Alt Right types. They're always the victims.
Yes, girl! Lest we forget all the interracial ships that went down without a peep from white fans. Kenzi & Hale, Ichabod & Abbie, and Shawn & Angela to name a few.
I teared up at you talking about interracial ships and characters of color b/c it's a struggle, and it comes from both het and lgbtq white people in fandom and the writers behind the scenes, I've teared up many times in fandom just thinking about the treatment of these characters and if the actors see this racial mess; the funny thing is we do create content but it is always drowned out, ignored, or not celebrated like the favorite or popular ship of the fandom. In terms of reylo, reylo isn't like stelena vs delena where two popular ships from a show would wage war on each other, or like other fandoms with multiple ships waging war, reylo is like sterek, a behemoth ship, but when a ship starts to get a sizable anti-ship or hatedom, when it starts becoming like fandom as a collective is against the ship, (like how it seemed most fans started to view/see sterek shippers as the seasons went on and it started feeling like the teen wolf fandom vs sterek) it's usually a result of the shippers horrible behavior, and no amount of charity that reylos do is gonna change how horrible most of their shippers are, just like it didn't change how horrible most of the sterek shippers were either. Let people ship what they want, sure, until it becomes obvious the reason you're shipping those characters in the first place is a result of unconcious bias/racism. The amount of times characters of color in multiple fandoms have been pushed aside just so fans can continue to ship two white characters who only breathed near each other is ridiculous...
Also, same people ignoring hate for Boyega were the ones saying "that's too harsh" when he said he hated white racism. Like how you think hating racism is too harsh?? Lollll
Plus Boyega got SO much hate and gross treatment thrown at him over and over and over. But the second he claps back in any way ohhh he's such a bully? That ain't how it works xD
This video is amazing thank you for all this. Being Vietnamese, it infuriates me all Kelly Marie Tran went through never got this care or attention like how Reylo on both sides are being more serious about. Antis yelling about it and then reylo defenders being horrible and all the while, not a single person defended her in this intensity.
I'm more talking about the antis who are sending death threats and suicide baiting to general shippers and neutral people over the ship. I'm glad people focused on the racists attacking John and others, but there is a vocal majority in antis who are sending threats to non-issue people. Racism from the Star Wars fandom is not being talked about like fucking Reylo. Racism should be what people care about, not a ship.
Reylo just reinforces the idea that a white woman being in a relationship with her troubled, abusive, boyfriend is better than her being a relationship with her supporting black friend. That should tell you everything you need to know
YES. THANK YOU. This was why the article bothered me. I LOVE problematic shipping, and I would never believe in any way that harassment over such a thing is valid or warranted. But that doesn't mean that it has to be this big profound thing? And I think a lot of people who ship Reylo just...don't understand...WHY so many fans (fans of color especially) dislike the pairing? (They certainly don't understand the rampant racism and abuse/harassment of actors that makes quite a few people wary of the Star Wars fandom in general. Because if they really cared about intersectional social justice, they wouldn't be hyperfocusing on the fandom dynamics surrounding white cishet ship between two generally-agreed-to-be-attractive young people, like you said.) I think what irritated me the most is that a big part of the hatred for Reylo (at least that I've seen, but I only lurk in carefully curated corners of the Internet, so what do I know) comes from the fact that a) canonizing it furthers the idea that women are responsible for "redeeming" men and that men are entitled to romantic attention by doing something vaguely not-completely-as-terrible-as-they-could have and b) the fascination with Reylo above LITERALLY EVERY OTHER POSSIBLE STAR WARS PAIRING is, for many people in many circles, formed by a racist bias. THESE are the things a lot of people who don't like Reylo complain about, and I feel like the article just...completely ignored that? Yes, there are absolutely people who just hate certain ships to the point of ridiculous harmful irl behavior and people think your fictional preferences prove you are a terrible person always 100% of the time. And yes, some of the anti-Reylo discussion stems from that, and I agree that's bad. But to chalk ALL hatred of this pairing up to standard misogyny and ship wars seems...highly ignorant. Fandoms can easily serve as microcosms of broader social dynamics, so if you want to talk about how certain Star Wars fans don't want people to enjoy things, you NEED to include characters and fans of color in that discussion.
And YES. THE TREATMENT OF REYLO AS A SACRED THING OH MY /GOD/. Like...I was a Cersei Lannister stan in Game of Thrones for /years/. No one said anything when I talked about how men would harass me at cons when I cosplayed her or people would tell me that I was a terrible person for not hating her every second of the show. I, apparently, wasn't worthy of that same protection. If people are harassing and doxxing and threatening you, THAT'S BAD, YES. But to act like you don't expect people to disagree with you for liking something problematic is unrealistic. You don't get to tell people that they aren't allowed to be uncomfortable with the problematic thing you like and that anyone disliking it or criticizing it is a negative reflection on you that exemplifies misogyny or [insert prejudice here].
YES YES YES, those points are exactly why I hated the reylo ship. criticism is not always unjustified and simplifying it in the manner some reylos skips over the nuance and is really insulting to the other members of the fandom
I honestly just have the hots for Adam Driver and I kind of unwillingly like that enemy chemistry he and Rey have going on. That said, I’m glad it ended where it did for Rey and Kylo - I really couldn’t see them both living and moving on and having babies or whatever. I ship them in a limited way and I could have done without the romance as well, even though I think the actors had good chemistry. As for Finn and Rey, I don’t mind them, I just think they are really cute as friends and I felt some sparks between Finn and Poe in the first movie and thought that a real proper gay couple would be a great thing for the SW universe. Also, I CANNOT BELIEVE that Boyega would get hate for this, and yet I’m not surprised from what I’ve seen from this fandom. It is honestly the most toxic fandom I have ever come in contact with. Had it ended with Rey and Finn, I would be a bit disappointed mainly because of Stormpilot (that we didn’t get anyway so who cares) but I would not in any way find it outlandish or bad per se, I can really see that it would have meant a great deal for a lot of fans.
Reylo is mad tepid, like if that was gonna be the canon ship they should’ve gone hard on that enemies to lovers vibe. The whole series is a mess where they didn’t want to be definite on anything so that they could please everybody but also not really. At the same time the POC actors in this franchise have been bullied relentlessly so I’m unsurprised if nobody on the cast has patience now that everything is wrapped up, they can go off because the fandom has been the worst.
this video definitely hit home. tumblr's a dumpster fire rn with a loud subsection of reylos discussing now how critical fans of star wars are racist themselves because adam driver MIGHT (it's very dubious and unconfirmed, adam has called himself white) be part indigenous. but at the same time these were people shitting on john boyega, trying to "diagnose" him with "narcissism", saying oscar isaac's character was a closeted gay who hated women, etc. and calling them out on the latter two felt like yelling at a brick wall because really genuinely disconcerting behavior that hurts black and brown people was ignored in favor of justifying some white people. john boyega's feelings are irrelevant, oscar isaac's feelings are irrelevant, fans of color don't get a voice in these discussions UNLESS they talk about how they support reylo. it's not about the ship, it's about how loud these people are when it comes to their "oppression". it's about how racism's many forms come out in fandom. it sucks as a brown woman in fandom to basically be told that my experiences of racism are less valid than their experiences of alleged sexism. this is also a rant i apologize but it's been tiresome to just see this mess evolve and grow but not the support for fans of color / actors of color gain traction in the same manner. thank you for making this, honestly. it's very well put together, very balanced, and definitely very real. you're right we all need to put in the work, and a lot of people just aren't willing to do that, when we should! putting in the work doesn't just make us better people but it gives the chance to elevate other marginalized voices. we shouldn't be against doing that.
you made SEVERAL POINTS w/t this video & you are 100% correct. i’m so happy to see someone on CZcams make this kind of video, especially in response to that article. you’re a fantastic speaker & content maker, and you summed up these issues so beautifully. thank you, keep doing your thing!! 💖👏💖
The one thing I will say about Twilight, as a Native person, is that, while I am sure that there are Native people who may have actually enjoyed it (for God knows whatever reason), there are a LOT of people online who claim to be Native who are not who just like hijacking these conversations.
Thank you for this video! As a white nonbinary person while reading the article I did in general agree with it but there was something wrong about it that I couldn't find the words for... Thank you for making me understand this so much better
I am so, so sorry. I'm in tears over here. I'm a consumer in the Reylo fandom; I add my likes and retweets. The shit from January 2020 in the Star Wars shipping fandom was not okay. I hope things change and those who hold the keys at Lucasfilm, Disney, and every other production company stop being such cowards. We need more people of colour and LGBTQ rep in love stories.
I totally totally get this frustration of not having black/brown ppls perspective in any convo about feminism and toxic masculinity. I see a lot of convos about toxic masculinity talk about how men have always been expected to suppress their emotions, remain strong, etc. But there are many women of color who are expected to have these same traits in their communities, whether it’s due to the domestic violence or religious suppression. For example, in certain middle eastern and SOME (not all) Indian cultures, having a daughter is almost like a sin and there are many instances where the family would rather abort than have the daughter. But if they have a son, they are treated like a king, they must have the perfect girl given to them at marriage. Any daughters that are there live silently in oppression, and no matter how much they serve or pour their hearts out, they will never receive the same love just because they’re not born a male. I understand toxic masculinity exists, but the type where the men are expected to be strong while the women are allowed to freely express their emotions is honestly more specific to white American/Western European culture. And many black/brown women are trying to fight thru the complicated issues of their communities. As a brown woman, I personally have not had a fantasy romance like many white women get and don’t really expect to get one. A lot of that had to do with pressure from my family and community not to date until I was older, or else rumors would spread like wildfire. I used to get dirty and racist jokes and comments from white guys at my high school, asking why my hair was a certain way, why I didn’t have a bf, if I would ever consider sucking someone’s dick, etc. I was the “goody two shoes” they wanted to mock and secretly hated, but the truth is I was trying to balance btw keeping my family happy while trying to be American enough for my friends. Then I would see how the white girls would get nice compliments and gifts and roses, or there were the cool girls who hung out with the guys. I spent so long trying to figure out who I should please and who I should be like that I forgot about myself. And then my sister got to the age of marriage (usu starting from 21-22) and I saw how my family and all the aunties in the community got weird around her. They would constantly pester her, relatives started contacting men in India without her permission, my mom setup a website account specifically for brown ppl, ALL without my sisters permission when she was out working. Expectation are the same for both men and women, sometimes even more expected from women, so there’s no toxic masculinity but rather a 2-way high standard list. The girl must by young, somewhat fair, slim, not too short and not too tall, educated with MD or PhD, or if not working a good job (like engineering or software or something of that sort), but also expected to be domestic enough to meet the standards of the in laws (bc in a lot of brown cultures family expectations are priority over the couple’s). Similar standards for men, but don’t have to be domesticated. My sister met some of these men after being urged by my parents. They all ended up being jerks and frauds who lied on their profiles and were so disrespectful, but their parents never scolded their sons for their behavior. I remember how heartbroken she was at how she’d been treated. Finally she found someone on her own and I was so happy. When my parents found out, they fought for months bc he wasn’t Indian. Finally they have come to accept him, but my mother still hesitates to even show the rest of my family pics of him bc she’s worried how they’ll react since he’s not Indian. Many women in non-white cultures constantly live in shame and romances are short lived or non-existent. I’m thankful to my sister for opening my parents minds so it may be easier for me in the future to be in a relationship of my choice. My mom does keep pressuring me about marriage though, but she’s being a bit nicer about it this time. I know there are many women of color out there fighting the good fight to make things better for their communities but it won’t be easy breaking certain stigmas, from the both their own community and from white ppl. The duality makes it all the more complicated, but don’t ever let anyone make you feel like any less of a woman ever. You all deserve a MILLION roses and a galaxy of prom dances with the dreamiest gentlemen (or women or anything in between 😉😉😉)
I’m not a black person, but I do love Finn/Rey and I kind of get Reylo, but I don’t ship it at all. Since I don’t ship Reylo and never saw it, in Rise of Skywalker, that ship felt forced to me and more catering to those shippers. I just love Finn/Rey a lot more because of their chemistry and friendship. I do wish Finn could’ve been the main character because his background story as a Stormtrooper was so interesting and unique. Poe felt bland to me throughout all of those movies. I ship other interracial pairings too like Shawn and Angela. I hated how the writers screwed her over in Girl Meets World. Kinda off topic, but I do ship Snape and Lily since you mentioned it.
OMG, when you mentioned Bamon!! I still can't believe I sat through so many seasons of TVD and had to watch all these terrible couples get together (Alaric and Caroline? For real? lmao), but Damon and Bonnie were never allowed to happen when they had so much history and chemistry, and Bonnie had to be stuck with the lamest love interests (Jeremy and Enzo... UGH) and treated like a punching bag. What a terrible show tbh, they got away with so much racist shit. As usual, is a delight to listen to you speak. It amazes me how people think a fictional pairing between two white cis people is more important than John Boyega getting called racial slurs. I don't care what people ship, it's never okay to ignore the racism in fandom.
You made a lot of really good points in this video! I have never shipped Reylo myself, (tbh I always saw FinnRey as an ideal pairing, in-universe) but looking at a lot of the things Anti-Reylos say that might be valid, it makes me be careful to look at what I DO ship in other fandoms and make sure I'm not copping a double-standard; I don't want to find myself condemning one thing in Star Wars and condoning it somewhere else. All this to say, great video, great views, and I agree with your comments! Thanks so much for posting this ✨👌🏻✨
Hot take Martha was way better than Rose. Also Bill in Doctor Who was a treasure who wasn't on the show long enough. Also I wasn't fond of Rey as a character (she could have been great, but she didn't get handled well at all) so I was always more fond of Finn/Poe because those two were great together.
The saddest part is she probably spent more time explaining how Reylo shippers are the most oppressed people in the world than the writers spent on TROS script.
As a Mexican Star Wars fan Ive been a fan of FinnRey since The Force Awakens came out. Thats a wholesome ship, thats a good ship. Finn was done dirty by The Rise of Skywalker in order to appeal to white female fans who couldnt handle Rey being with a black man.
I've said this before but being a fan of color is exhausting because you constantly have to defend not just yourself but any non-white character and it's even harder when you're black. Like I don't think I'd have a problem with Reylo or the shippers in general if they just admit that there is a race problem in shipping, especially when it comes to Star Wars. It's just so frustrating.
Plus being an anti anti isn't a minority identity. It's definitely not a race either. So it's extra offensive to repackage language that black social justice activists used to make it be about shipping. It's even worse when white fandom bloggers do that.
I know its possible to have civilized discussions with Reylo shippers. Not all of them are acting a fool. I don't even have a problem with the ship itself. What I have a problem with are the delusional and racist shippers of Reylo who are proclaiming their innocence in harrassing Boyega for the eternity of his SW career. Not all Reylo shippers harassed Boyega, but a huge number of the fans who did it are,, and they refuse to acknowledge it, and that's my issue.
“Reylo is not more important than racism” AMEN! I get the ship, I really do. As a gay man, I shipped Fin and Poe. But the twisting of the issue, and the absolute ignorance over what John Boyega, Kelly Marie Tran, Oscar Isaac, and Naomi Ackie went through just highlights how damn toxic and racist and ignorant so much of the fan base is. The part that always gets me is that Finn was set up as a Jedi. In all of Disney’s promotional material for “The Force Awakens”, Finn is holding the blue lightsaber. His dual with Kylo Ren was shown in the trailer. Then suddenly, they said, “just kidding here’s a white woman”. The producers completely pushed Finn to the sidelines, and poor Rose was completely fridged in “Rise of Skywalker.” Jannah was fucking amazing. I loved her bow and arrow, so unique, and her story was incredible too and then she was also just dropped.
Thank you so much for this video! Everything you said. Especially from 14:48 hit me DEEP! I'll come back and comment again when I can gather my thoughts. Thanks again! This needed to be said. Your channel means a lot.
Late, but gawd do I love Martha. She is probably one of my favorite NuWho companions and I never got why anyone would be upset at her developing feelings for The Doctor. A smart, attractive man comes out of nowhere and shows you allo of space and time, yeah totes falling for. Her realizing she was a rebound and leaving on her own terms, and letting the friendship develop the way Martha wanted was baller as fuck. I was far more into the idea of Poe and Finn together, and Reye going on adventures on her, and Kylo being left as the sad boi he deserves to be.
This. one of the things that always frustrates me especially being a black woman fan, is that the ships i like, the ones that has people that look like me, almost never become canon. I knew Finnrey wasn't going to happen.
Well done! People have lost the ability to understand fictional context as fiction. And when people miss the plot there,they miss the actual social intersections. When one attributes utter importance to the lightsaber colors and lengths,it becomes impossible to discuss what actually matters.
I have been binging your channel since I stumbled across you, and I am in LOVE with your style and passion for everything you talk about. You are also the first person I've come across who saw the hate for Gwen on Merlin and felt that same anger and hurt about how she and that ship was treated solely because of the race of the beautiful, graceful, regal actress cast to play her. Thank you for all you're doing!! Keep it up!! ❤️❤️❤️
I hate that we feel this stress and I don't wish it on anyone BUT more than anything, I wish more fans of popular media do the work to understand other fans of the things we love. Why fight when we can lure in even MORE diverse fans, which will undoubtedly snowball into better and better content -- both fan and cannon?? It's just so sad and frustrating. As always, well said, and happy to see you and other creators moving this conversation forward. :D
Wow. I am near speechless. This is so powerful and important. There is so much to unpack. For me personally, I never cared when people pooped on my ships cuz it’s my ship. It happens in my version/universe of the story [+]
Thank you for sharing your feelings. It can be tiring to be apart of these fandoms, but it's down right disheartening when it feels like no one's listening. There are several fandoms that this applies to, though at the moment I was thinking about the ship of Thor and Valkyrie (since they're from one of my favorite movies). When you add in the bisexual factor it feels like even the people you should have camaraderie with will still put whiteness/the binary first. I definitely feel like the writers/directors cooled things down because of the race factor, especially with Jane coming back. I'm interested in your thoughts regarding queer WOC and shipping.
I've been thinking about this as well! I remember reading that the writers originally wrote Thor and Valkyrie to be romantically interested in each other during Ragnorak, but they replaced the writer and that got scraped.There was also a lot of racist backlash ( Tessa Thompson spoke about this during an interview).
I totally feel you on fandoms being fucking exhausting sometimes. I never saw the reason to really fight over ships because it's all based on emotions & kinks. I understand why some people can get defensive because a ship can be very personal, but that doesn't excuse racist and/or sexist behavior from anyone. EDIT: And yes, the poc cast members deserved so much better, from both the fans & the filmmakers.
this is kind of off topic, but in fandoms, i've noticed wlw ships and interracial ships being either tokenized (as bg characters for a white male gay ship or a white straight ship, or as a short shoutout, never as a main ship) and that makes it harder to ship them? like, if there's less content, it's not as easy to fall into it, you know? and that's if there are enough women/poc/woc in a show to be able to ship ppl *at all* The only interracial ship that got popular that I can think of is Klance from Voltron.
@J W "femslash" & "lesbian" are fine terms, just not popular anymore. I know that a lot of this is actually personal taste. I only think it may have a political *component* because, *from what I have seen*, it's inordinately rare. My Hero Aca is a really large fandom & the series has a lot of cool female characters, but while there are absolutely wlw ships, they always seemed tokenized & pushed to the back. Meanwhile, m/m ships about barely fleshed out side characters gained steam. To be honest... this post exists because I have never really gotten into a wlw relationship in fiction. I think, in my case, it's a mix of me having internalized misogyny (I find the idea of a passive/passive relationship boring... but that's not how women are?) and me not seeing very many complicated, interesting w/w retionships in media. Soooo.... idk. In the end, you're right. It's not that big of a deal. Congratulations on figuring out your identity!
Yeah! I really liked Martha on Dr. Who - I felt like she was kind, and smart, and had a gentle strength about her that a lot of the other companions lacked, and just because she was black and ha unrequited feelings for The Doctor after his loss of Rose, she was shit on. But she was seriously one of the most badass and competent companions he ever had!
I know plenty of writers of all kinds and across the board they'll get White fans telling them, "I know you these characters are X, but I'm gonna imagine them as Y." Which is in their right, I guess, but why include the writer in this conversation? And it's such a pressure all around to make characters White Cis Hetero upper middle class or straight up rich. *rubs temples* There is so much content out there, if that's what they want... why come to the few diverse writers and push that on them? Disenfranchised groups change things, because they can't find representation. One of my closest writer friends has specifically made a female lead character dark brown yet every week her FB group has fans posting light skin girls. And every week she has to affirm that her character is dark skinned. She's Black. From a Black family. 100% Black. Her twin..... he's Black too. It's so frustrating to watch, but she's gotta bite her tongue and be professional. She's much better than me, I would have snapped. She's got pics for all her characters and her mods will directed fans to them. There is no secret or subtlety in the text or in her fandom who is what. When it comes to seeing the Snyder cut or getting Sonic's teeth changed its grest to have that fan pressure, but also these writers and studios need to also have a vision and figure out what is best for a storyline and arc over doing fan service. Fans arent (for the most part) writers. They don't really know how stories and all its elements work. It's like letting a child direct the ingredients going into a cake. They're gonna keep adding sugar and sprinkles and not care if there are ingredients that support a cakes structure, etc.
It's easy to say it's not about race when it's not the characters who look like you that are being killed off or relegated to the background all the time.
"SHIPPING IS NOT REPRESENTATION" FUCKING THANK YOU. this article has me so beyond angry to this day. as a finn stan, as a finnrey shipper, and just as a feminist in fandom in general. there is a massive, massive difference between "things that are traditionally made for women and girls come under harsher scrutiny" versus "if you don't like this fictional thing or support the people who do, you're anti-feminist." and reylos know that. they completely co-opted this argument for their own benefit to give reylo a veneer of "female empowerment", all while stepping over john, oscar, and kelly to do it. no room for discussion, no room for intersectionality, and it is disgusting. something i hate about fandom nowadays, especially on tumblr, is this idea that there has to be a moral or "social justice" reason to enjoy something (any scott mccall stans out there remember "agenda shipping?"). if reylos just came out and said, "i like reylo because i think adam driver is hot" i would respect them a lot more. instead, they have to twist social justice language to make it seem like they're morally in the right. fandom is supposed to be fun, and while there is something to be said for the racist sidelining of kelly, john, and oscar for kylo/reylo, the bottom line is, *i don't need an excuse or agenda to like finn or scott mccall.* i like their characters, period. but people like mccort can't comprehend why anyone would actually enjoy characters of color *without* some "secret social justice" agenda behind it. and there's a reason why that is.
"People who care about race and abusive portrayals in sories are basically the same as right wingers, they don't care about anything, both these groups just hate women and want to silence them!" This is the gist of the article Im getting from just reading it. But its so long tho so we'll see.
Oh, this was a fantastic video. Thank you! All I can say. This video made me feel too much to express properly what I loved about this the most, so just... Thanks :) And I want to hug you... so, here's a virtual hug for you. I hope it'll comfort you. Best, A 32-year-old geek with a twenty-year-old history in various fandoms who grew out of shipping due to a lot of toxicity involved.
very glad i finally decided to watch this video of yours. i have (somehow) fallen down a rabbithole of reylo fic despite watching none of this chapter of star wars films. even with my very nebulous understanding of this cast of characters and how they all relate to one another... i have seen some questionable characterizations, pairings and even character omissions or “reassignments” that have made me raise an eyebrow - especially regarding finn. this plus my suspicions that fanon kylo ren/reylo is a much more sanitized version of their canon makes me rather hesitant to watch the films. i think it’s important to have these sorts of conversations. it really sucks that these communities centered around fictional stories and relationships run rampant with racist overtures/undertones. the “it’s not about race/why does it always have to be about race” arguments are soooo overplayed at this point. can we get some constructive discourse going?? jeez. over it. thank you as always for your perspective, it’s much appreciated 🙏🏾
Omg I don’t know you but I am sending you a virtual hug!!! I agree with everything you said, and I wanna also add that I think it’s totally possible to have a discussion about what sorts of relationships are responsible to glorify in kid’s media without blasting people who like that ship, AND without saying “this should be illegal and banned”
I’m going to return to this video whenever I doubt my feelings as I navigate my favorite ships cautiously enter new fandoms. I’ve been reading fanfiction for 22 years and it hasn’t gotten any easier 🥴
Kara spent the entire first season of Supergirl pining over Jimmy. She finally gets him in the season finale and then literally out if the blue some white dude (Mon-El) is like NOPE!
I'm late to this party, but I'll still add my two cents. This article screams ~white feminism~. The fact that it focus on this particular aspect of the Star Wars fandom, how the fans treat Reylo shippers as opposed to say, the blantaly racists that spent all this time harassing John Boyega and Kelly Marie Tran (to the point that her character was made completely irrelevant in the last movie!!! I will never forgive JJ Abrams for that btw, effing coward) is extremely telling. You can't explicitly point out that someone is being racist by shipping two white people, but racism is structural and internalized so, I'm sorry but if there is a poc involved, racism can and probably will be a factor. I was never a Finn/Rey shipper, but I would be okay with them being a thing (Finn/Poe aka StormPilot fan here lol), although the whole "everyone wants the love of the white woman" does come a lot to mind when I think of these type of interracial couple configuration (it's a little hard to avoid these kind of discussions/thoughts as a black/mixed race latina woman). But still, any interracial couple is still progress when 99% of media only show us white straight cis people loving each other.
I know this wasn't the focus of the video, but I had no idea there was hate about Arthur/Gwen. I didn't get into the show until years after the finale, so I missed all the fandom drama. And I was just... Gwen is so nice? And a character with SO much potential! I loved when she was on screen, and I was happy for the Arwen ship. (THOUGH... Morgwen forever.) But also, alongside gay ships being used to justify pushing out ships with POC, you definitely see a similar thing with f/f ships (with or without POC). And when you do see f/f ships, it can often feel like "pair the spares", and they get relegated to the background in fanfiction (if you see them at all).
thank you so much for making this video! (essay processing my feelings ahead) im a white girl who's outside the star wars fandom and mildly shipped reylo and finnpoe after seeing the last jedi and the force awakens once. i remember when this happened i had to mute any phrase related to reylo and just get off twitter for a while because the harassment in my feed was so intense. this is one of those issues that is so easy to get lost in. i really didn't understand where the hatred was coming from as my only interactions with the star wars fandom had been the movies themselves and some of my friends in real life. from the outside looking in, especially at the point where it hit my circle of david tennant twitter, all i saw was slander, harassment, and actual abuse in the forms of doxxing and death threats. it's a little triggering even now just with the intensity of the shit i was seeing especially without context. i saw the arguments of how reylo could be used by racists against finn, agreed with them, checked myself and my motivations (i just liked reylo's dynamic in tlj and i liked finn/poe and finn/rose better), and moved on, but i get how someone more deeply entrenched in that culture wouldn't be inclined to do so. fandom and people in general love to dogpile on anything they have a reason to hate. it's why 'cancel culture' is so prevalent. it feels good to just point at something, be mad at it, and move on. that's what i saw when i saw the reylo discourse from a distance: a bunch of people hating a ship because it was the thing to hate at the moment, and moving on. this video helped so much with contextualizing the outburst and where it was coming from. for a little while now i've been making an effort to analyze my ships and why i'm drawn to some and not to others, and where my biases lie. race in media and fandom is so infuriating to engage with as a fan simply because a lot of times it isn't done well. (this happens with lgbt stuff too, but i haven't noticed the same level of outcry about interracial ships that you see with queerbaiting.) i don't have many interracial ships, but when i think about it most of the fandoms im in simply don't have the content. i personally need canon basis for my ships, but in so many shows poc exist but they aren't given the same level of development or complexity as the usually white and usually male leads. it's important to build up a culture of self criticism and analysis. why do i like this thing? is this thing good? do i like it for prejudiced reasons? the answers can be complex but even just the act of thinking about them requires self reflection and growth. the star wars fandom drama specifically has done a strong job of spotlighting the kneejerk racist and sexist reactions to media. i loved rose when i saw tlj, and seeing the scale of the backlash to her was frankly horrifying but a good reminder of just how prevalent racism is. acknowledging your personal biases is a necessary part of interacting with the world, and seeing shit like the reylo drama, especially when both sides were facing oppression in different ways, just affirms that necessity. this shit is hard and there is never a simple answer, but as long as we make an effort to be better i think we haven't lost.
That’s why I’m creating a majority black cast independent tv and comic fantasy series. It will be out sometime next year. We need our own space our own stories and black females will be represented properly!!!!!!
Girl, I wish you could see yourself in the content you watch. We need to do better! You're making me tear up here AND I'M NOT EVEN A SHIPPER. Sending love and positive energy your way.
I know why I have long since dropped out of active fandom. I just write my stupid fanfics and ships when I feel good enough to and ignore everything because fandoms in general just seem to get more and more toxic ... and I always had the feeling that fandoms tended to be pretty hostile against female characters in general. Makes me sad to hear you and everyone else has to listen to so much shit just for shipping the people whom you like. I can relate to it a little bit, but only on a very small scale. Also, I feel Media fuels that particular inacceptance of interracial ships by portraying them so seldom. It's like whenever you see a movie you just know 99% of the time who is going to end up together.
"There is no black woman whose mentions are without fuckery." A little louder for the folks in the back!!! I felt her rage on this one. What are we even talking about in 2020?
"I do the work to unpack that... Y'all have to do the same." I couldn't agree more. Especially now in 2020, I've been working really hard to do exactly that. It's uncomfortable and it is not easy, but it's absolutely vital (and your videos have been extremely helpful in aiding me to do so; thank you for that).
Important: "Reylo is not more important than racism!" Side Note: Reylo is definitely not unique. I remember before TROS, there was some interesting content @StarWarsConnection discussing Reylo in terms of literary references (Jane Austen, Charlotte Bronte, Byron, etc.). It was in between that time of TLJ tension and the TROS confirmation, so it was a pretty open space to explore that ship.
I actually thought finnray would happen bc they acted like how all other ships like that start, but you got the experience to know it wouldn't happen. That makes me so sad at how predictable people's implicit biases are.
This is such a necessary video, omg! I just wanted to thank you and comment, as a die hard Merthur shipper, that I never really thought about Arthur and Gwen having zero chemistry and that being related to Gwen's blackness. I love Gwen as character so much (it's the first version of Guinevere that I don't hate, tbh) and, as black woman, I should have paid more attention. On the other hand, tho I watched Merlin as it was airing, I never joined the fandom till very recently, so I guess I missed most of the discussion around it... Even so, me being a black woman, I really should've paid more attention
/aaaand now i've finished your video! i appreciate your input :) you are passionate and intelligent, and you're good at articulating yourself! i understand much better your point and what other people have also said. it is a bit weird to only focus one part of the misogny in the star wars fandom and not bring up racism as well, and where they both intersect. thanks for pointing that out!
reylos were way too quick to attack john boyega when that happened. had it been adam driver, the shaved mole rat it would have played out differently. when a reylo says "its not about race" its DEFINITELY about race
@That One Even when Adam himself says he is a white man and has benefited from white male privilege. They still insist that he is Native American and say that he keeps it "secret" because he is afraid of not getting roles. Yet, they can't admit to the fact that John Boyega being black impacts the venom and hatred they spew his way and the racism he has to face in the Star Wars racism.
Tracy Simms, ugh barf can they not. He’s a white nan who isn’t bothered to be one and is highlighted and celebrated by Hollywood. I mean is this not what whites have been decrying when they attack representation and diversity? Why are they so quick to try and protect it by asserting an ethnicity that isn’t real when they don’t even listen to us anyways.
I never realised that raylo was even a massive ship. I came massively late to the game, and I can say I really didn’t like that ship and was begging in the cinema for them not to kiss lol 😂
lol I was loving this until you said that you ship zutara because I will always be a kataang shipper But in all seriousness love your content, please keep up the videos they are fantastic!!!!!!!!!!
I'm so tired of fandom folks using "its all just fandom shipwar bullshit" to dismiss any fandom critical discourse, and then turn around to use the language of oppression and social justice as a shield for their fandom shipwar bullshit.
I'm a white dude, but Martha was such a fucking strong companion and she was my absolute favourite companions period, because she was able to keep a straight head even when the Doctor was freaking out! I was absolutely perplexed to see her getting shat on to the point where I was wondering if I'd even watched the same show
While I do like Rey and Kylo's dynamic (though I wasn't hoping for any romantic payoff), Rey and Finn has more chemistry than all the official couples in Star Wars.
Reylos just hated the idea of s Blackman getting with a white woman , it's gonna happen sometime in old republic saga . Anyways Finn and Rey will hook up in the comic in future stories he force strong and him and Rey have a strong bond clearly showing she is done when he sensed her death
Gwen/Arthur is the canon ship of the whole fucking Arthurian mythology. They were cute as fuck and anyone who says that ship was homophobic can fight me! And in my mind, there were a bout two alternate universes. 1) Arthur, Merlin, and Gwen formed a poly 2) Arthur/Merlin and Gwen/Morgana I will accept nothing less
RIGHT!!!?!?! And they're such teases for having that episode where Charlotte has a dream where she kisses Henry and absolutely nothing comes of it. They didn't even do anything when Jasper thought Charlotte had a crush on him. Like really? Really? I'm sorry if you have no idea what I'm talking about I'm just heated. I've been heated from day one.
Yep. Re dr who I started with season 3 and low key hated Rose because the amount of shit talking I heard about Martha when she was perfectly fine. Her literal only character flaw was she loved the doctor too much (but not enough to destroy the world). I don’t hate Rose but I’ll never like her for how much people deified her and shat on Martha and Mickey and then fucking Davies pairing the two of them together as if they were even fucking friends first.
I loved this video so much! Such a balanced and informative video. I dislike reylo as well, personally, I don't care about shipping it I just didn't want it to be canon (which is sort of is now? idk) because unlike the other ships you mentioned those were more "adult" or "teenage" shows. ST being a family and children friendly series I always thought something like reylo was too dark to explore. But I agree it is nothing new, It's Delena, Spuffy, etc. It's nothing new and will always exist. I just think there is a time and place to explore dark relationships, also you have to make sure to do them correctly. I feel also very insulted at the idea that "Finnrey shippers never made content" comment by the author, I made plenty of gifsets and edits. They never did that well on my blog, and while I don't want to say I do everything for a reblog or alike after a while I thought what was the point of making gifsets or edits (which take a lot of work) if I barely get any notes. Even my edits of just Finn didn't do as well of my "anti reylo" gifsets did or my Solo sibling gifsets theories did. So eventually I gave up, maybe that's on me but I hate the implication the fandom never tried. Literally, there was the whole account called Finnrey-Fridays which had people post Finn and Rey content on Fridays for fun. And I agree with you about how exhausted the situation has become, I feel completely drained to talk anything about ST. The whole sequel trilogy boiled down to this reylo discussion, which has more or less destroyed the fandom.
“Reylo is not more important than racism” thank you! As a woc I’m exhausted with as you say the flattening of the discussion of race and misogyny in fandom. Sometimes it is sad to see the level of harassment certain shippers and fans can get, but that article rubbed me the wrong way for a lot of the reasons you pointed out. Meanwhile fans of color and actors of color endure harassment and racism and that conversation always gets brushed aside and neglected. It’s an isolating experience. It’s like you say, it’s hard to feel solidarity with the white section of fandom sometimes because it’s like they have blinders on.
Yes, but the article wouldnt have so overreacted of it werent as serious insults BECAUSE racism is a serious subject which shouldnt be thrown around. The article just makes the point that women in all kind of media are critized for what they like to consume and takes Reylo JUST AS AN EXAMPLE. It just stated that this shippers were called rascist because they were shipping The woman with A WHITE MAN. But that comment can be racist to us you indicate that you care what kind of skin colour the charactere has instead of the whole charactersation. It can be totally critized that Finn for example wasnt cast as the protagonist especially because they had him in the marketing as the protagonist and taht they AGAIN casted two "white" characters. This is legit as Hollywood often has "woke" as their marketing key but sometimes refuses to act like it. But this has nothing to do with the ship.
@@minwa5329 You are completely missing the point of this video.
@@tracysimms8701 Maybe yeah Sorry. I just commented on the one comment above. I dont think that a groupe should be taken more serouisly than a real issue matter (like fight against racism) but unfortunatly such overreaction are created by throwning words (when people have to deal with real racism today badly not only online) like racist to a groupe cause you didnt like the dynamic they are invested in. Also this groupe represented the question is fiction allowed to show a relationship which has problematic circumstances.
@ThisIsMyRealName i dont care.
@Jan Rose But the article ever say that Reylo is more important than racism? If not then seems like a strawman.
It disgusts me that Disney capitalized off racist "fan" outrage for marketing from the jump, first with John Boyega and then Kelly Marie Tran, used the actors as props, didn't do shit to protect them from harassment, and never gave their characters the development they deserved.
Amén!!! This! This! So much this! Frustratingly obvious that Disney was practicing wokenomics [+]
As a long term fan of doctor who, it hurts me how much I've internalized hate for Martha. She has been one of the strongest and most competent companions of the Doctor, but when I was growing up and reading people trash her, i just took it because that's how people talked about black women all the time.
Now looking back, Marth was a better doctor than the doctor! Saved the whole damn world more than once, and was an ACTUAL doctor, and fine af. There was nothing wrong with her other than the writers making her love for the doctor tragically unrequited and made sure to shove in our faces that this white man fell for a 19 year old white girl, but was fully unattracted to a sexy black doctor.
It's why I'm so scared that they've hinted at a future black female doctor in the new series. I REALLY want to see it happen, but damn my heart is weak. Even the white female doctor got called a whore and bitch, a BLACK female doctor?? I'm not ready.
@@Allyenna it makes 100% sense. The episode where he and Martha are stuck in the past, she as a maid and he having to forget who he was is what explains this dynamic to me. He so comfortably fell for the next woman that wasnt her, and proceeded to literally never even look at her. The entire episode it was her job to try to get him to see her and remember who he was, and it was like he was aggressively ignoring her, even when what she says starts to make sense.
The bitch went from doctor to maid and didnt even get an apology from the doctor for having to watch him love up on the next white woman to make him feel warm and bothered.
It was very painful to watch, and I think after that I just questioned why she'd stay. The doctor always did everything to make all the companions feel special, and for some reason he just expected Martha to handle herself and be grateful.
@@Allyenna And it's hardly talked about that shes the only companion who did this. Chose herself over the doctor. Even Amy and Clara for all their bravery chose him. And think its because Martha got his worse side honestly, so she wasnt entranced like the rest. She not only picked herself but her family when other companions were leaving home to follow a mad man for years without prioritizing family
Martha was my favorite companion
I hate their dynamic and I have no idea why they chose to frame it that way. Martha is a good character and her actress is awesome in other things especially Sense8. I always read it that the Doctor wasn't ready for a new connection because he was still mourning Rose which is fine but unfair to Martha as a new companion with high potential. Martha deserved better.
Completely agree with you. I was super into 10xrose and never gave Martha a chance at first. Until the episode where he has to live as a human with dormant memories. When he as a human fell for a random white lady, I realized my negative feelings towards Martha came from toxic shipping goggles and not seeing her as a character on her own. Now, Martha is one of my favorite DW characters period.
I can't really rewatch new who because of the way they treated their black characters, especially Mickey and Martha. They deserved so much better.
It infuriates me how John Boyega/Finn has been treated throughout the years. And the fact that the people spewing that hate had the nerve to cry "bullying" after he went off is so ridiculous it'd be laughable if it wasn't damaging.
The ending portion of this video was really compelling. You are completely justified in getting emotional with how rampant, yet brushed off these issues have been in favor of "easier" topics like Reylo. And to co-opt certain language for said topics is just a slap in the face. I wish people could just take a step back and realize the hurt and isolation it causes.
Thank you for speaking on this (Also, zutara for life lol)
😢It's hard to be a black girl and fandom knowing that you probably got to look for OC's that are black or purposely look for content shape to yourself and shipping is so much harder.
Thank you!!! SOMEONE HAS TO MENTION IT.
I find it so frustrating how white washed stories in the YA section is. It's always the same tropes. Regular [white] teenage girl/guy who's hobbies in the guy's case are video games [or maybe card games, sports or cars], and in the girl's case ....well a lot of stories don't even get that far in addressing a characters interests outside of family and fling you straight into the action.
It's frustrating. I have to go out of my way to look for an OC that is a WOC and consider myself lucky if in my fandom I'll find more than 2 put of 10,000 stories that fit the bill, [and the stories don't get deleted by the site, I wonder why they do that? HMMM]
The worst part is when you can tell the author is either diluting the narrative or isn't a POC at all in how they handle bringing in the culture they're portraying. So many of the [very few] stories about bilingual characters out there are so unrealistic it hurts, and so often the physical description of these characters are white washed too, no one wants to talk about the Mayan noses, coily kinky hairs, or the flat faces. No if their face is flat they have a "strong" nose, if they're black you'll hear references to their "dark" skin in two variations "dark and caramel", anything in between doesn't exist on the shade spectrum, Hispanics of Latin american descent never get described with the a red undertone in their skin or their distinctive noses.
It's always the same and that's boring. There's a reason I haven't bout much fantasy stories recently. They're all the same white washed, "western" narrative.
When you mentioned Merthur I suddenly felt so guilty because I had never even considered the racist hate that Angel and Arwen fans must have received and I am a huge Merthur fan. Thank you for making this video and articulating something that I had not thought about much before. It is important for those of us who are not WOC to acknowledge the problems in our fan communities.
Thank you for mentioning the part about how Reylos take shots at Finnrey/Finn. The problem with the article that it was only coming from the Reylo perspective and what they experienced. And didn't really bother to ask Non-Reylo fans, including black and brown women about our experiences in fandom. When it comes to facing harassment, bullying or racism.
Reylos NEED to play the part of the victims. But they're often the offenders and not the people being offended.. The same goes for the Alt Right types. They're always the victims.
@@dustinmaxwell259 Alt right types? Rly now?
Yes, girl! Lest we forget all the interracial ships that went down without a peep from white fans. Kenzi & Hale, Ichabod & Abbie, and Shawn & Angela to name a few.
Dragonflynoire10 IchabodxAbbie 😭😭 we were robbed
Remember when they tried to tell us that Katrina was more interesting than Abbie? KATRINA
@@Princess_Weekes Yep, and someone actually told me that Abbie was just the help. I'm still mad!
@@Dragonflynoire10 So no idea who the character or the show is, but that sounds like yikes, is it yikes?
@@willowarkan2263 haven't watched that show either but that's definitely a big YIKES 😬
I teared up at you talking about interracial ships and characters of color b/c it's a struggle, and it comes from both het and lgbtq white people in fandom and the writers behind the scenes, I've teared up many times in fandom just thinking about the treatment of these characters and if the actors see this racial mess; the funny thing is we do create content but it is always drowned out, ignored, or not celebrated like the favorite or popular ship of the fandom.
In terms of reylo, reylo isn't like stelena vs delena where two popular ships from a show would wage war on each other, or like other fandoms with multiple ships waging war, reylo is like sterek, a behemoth ship, but when a ship starts to get a sizable anti-ship or hatedom, when it starts becoming like fandom as a collective is against the ship, (like how it seemed most fans started to view/see sterek shippers as the seasons went on and it started feeling like the teen wolf fandom vs sterek) it's usually a result of the shippers horrible behavior, and no amount of charity that reylos do is gonna change how horrible most of their shippers are, just like it didn't change how horrible most of the sterek shippers were either.
Let people ship what they want, sure, until it becomes obvious the reason you're shipping those characters in the first place is a result of unconcious bias/racism. The amount of times characters of color in multiple fandoms have been pushed aside just so fans can continue to ship two white characters who only breathed near each other is ridiculous...
When a black person says there's a race issue.... THERE'S A RACE ISSUE
Also, same people ignoring hate for Boyega were the ones saying "that's too harsh" when he said he hated white racism. Like how you think hating racism is too harsh?? Lollll
Right?? Shouldn't hating racism be... the norm?
Plus Boyega got SO much hate and gross treatment thrown at him over and over and over. But the second he claps back in any way ohhh he's such a bully? That ain't how it works xD
This video is amazing thank you for all this. Being Vietnamese, it infuriates me all Kelly Marie Tran went through never got this care or attention like how Reylo on both sides are being more serious about. Antis yelling about it and then reylo defenders being horrible and all the while, not a single person defended her in this intensity.
I'm more talking about the antis who are sending death threats and suicide baiting to general shippers and neutral people over the ship. I'm glad people focused on the racists attacking John and others, but there is a vocal majority in antis who are sending threats to non-issue people.
Racism from the Star Wars fandom is not being talked about like fucking Reylo. Racism should be what people care about, not a ship.
Rose is one of my favorite characters and I was SO angry when she got sidelined in the third movie. 😡
Reylo just reinforces the idea that a white woman being in a relationship with her troubled, abusive, boyfriend is better than her being a relationship with her supporting black friend. That should tell you everything you need to know
YES. THANK YOU. This was why the article bothered me. I LOVE problematic shipping, and I would never believe in any way that harassment over such a thing is valid or warranted. But that doesn't mean that it has to be this big profound thing? And I think a lot of people who ship Reylo just...don't understand...WHY so many fans (fans of color especially) dislike the pairing? (They certainly don't understand the rampant racism and abuse/harassment of actors that makes quite a few people wary of the Star Wars fandom in general. Because if they really cared about intersectional social justice, they wouldn't be hyperfocusing on the fandom dynamics surrounding white cishet ship between two generally-agreed-to-be-attractive young people, like you said.) I think what irritated me the most is that a big part of the hatred for Reylo (at least that I've seen, but I only lurk in carefully curated corners of the Internet, so what do I know) comes from the fact that a) canonizing it furthers the idea that women are responsible for "redeeming" men and that men are entitled to romantic attention by doing something vaguely not-completely-as-terrible-as-they-could have and b) the fascination with Reylo above LITERALLY EVERY OTHER POSSIBLE STAR WARS PAIRING is, for many people in many circles, formed by a racist bias. THESE are the things a lot of people who don't like Reylo complain about, and I feel like the article just...completely ignored that? Yes, there are absolutely people who just hate certain ships to the point of ridiculous harmful irl behavior and people think your fictional preferences prove you are a terrible person always 100% of the time. And yes, some of the anti-Reylo discussion stems from that, and I agree that's bad. But to chalk ALL hatred of this pairing up to standard misogyny and ship wars seems...highly ignorant. Fandoms can easily serve as microcosms of broader social dynamics, so if you want to talk about how certain Star Wars fans don't want people to enjoy things, you NEED to include characters and fans of color in that discussion.
And YES. THE TREATMENT OF REYLO AS A SACRED THING OH MY /GOD/. Like...I was a Cersei Lannister stan in Game of Thrones for /years/. No one said anything when I talked about how men would harass me at cons when I cosplayed her or people would tell me that I was a terrible person for not hating her every second of the show. I, apparently, wasn't worthy of that same protection. If people are harassing and doxxing and threatening you, THAT'S BAD, YES. But to act like you don't expect people to disagree with you for liking something problematic is unrealistic. You don't get to tell people that they aren't allowed to be uncomfortable with the problematic thing you like and that anyone disliking it or criticizing it is a negative reflection on you that exemplifies misogyny or [insert prejudice here].
@@musical-chick-134 Listen! and it's always a Black woman who "in the way" always.
@@Princess_Weekes YOU'RE RIGHT AND YOU SHOULD SAY IT
YES YES YES, those points are exactly why I hated the reylo ship. criticism is not always unjustified and simplifying it in the manner some reylos skips over the nuance and is really insulting to the other members of the fandom
I felt kind of uncomfortable reading that article and your video has really helped me work out why. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
I honestly just have the hots for Adam Driver and I kind of unwillingly like that enemy chemistry he and Rey have going on. That said, I’m glad it ended where it did for Rey and Kylo - I really couldn’t see them both living and moving on and having babies or whatever. I ship them in a limited way and I could have done without the romance as well, even though I think the actors had good chemistry.
As for Finn and Rey, I don’t mind them, I just think they are really cute as friends and I felt some sparks between Finn and Poe in the first movie and thought that a real proper gay couple would be a great thing for the SW universe.
Also, I CANNOT BELIEVE that Boyega would get hate for this, and yet I’m not surprised from what I’ve seen from this fandom. It is honestly the most toxic fandom I have ever come in contact with. Had it ended with Rey and Finn, I would be a bit disappointed mainly because of Stormpilot (that we didn’t get anyway so who cares) but I would not in any way find it outlandish or bad per se, I can really see that it would have meant a great deal for a lot of fans.
Reylo is mad tepid, like if that was gonna be the canon ship they should’ve gone hard on that enemies to lovers vibe. The whole series is a mess where they didn’t want to be definite on anything so that they could please everybody but also not really. At the same time the POC actors in this franchise have been bullied relentlessly so I’m unsurprised if nobody on the cast has patience now that everything is wrapped up, they can go off because the fandom has been the worst.
this video definitely hit home. tumblr's a dumpster fire rn with a loud subsection of reylos discussing now how critical fans of star wars are racist themselves because adam driver MIGHT (it's very dubious and unconfirmed, adam has called himself white) be part indigenous. but at the same time these were people shitting on john boyega, trying to "diagnose" him with "narcissism", saying oscar isaac's character was a closeted gay who hated women, etc. and calling them out on the latter two felt like yelling at a brick wall because really genuinely disconcerting behavior that hurts black and brown people was ignored in favor of justifying some white people. john boyega's feelings are irrelevant, oscar isaac's feelings are irrelevant, fans of color don't get a voice in these discussions UNLESS they talk about how they support reylo. it's not about the ship, it's about how loud these people are when it comes to their "oppression". it's about how racism's many forms come out in fandom. it sucks as a brown woman in fandom to basically be told that my experiences of racism are less valid than their experiences of alleged sexism.
this is also a rant i apologize but it's been tiresome to just see this mess evolve and grow but not the support for fans of color / actors of color gain traction in the same manner.
thank you for making this, honestly. it's very well put together, very balanced, and definitely very real. you're right we all need to put in the work, and a lot of people just aren't willing to do that, when we should! putting in the work doesn't just make us better people but it gives the chance to elevate other marginalized voices. we shouldn't be against doing that.
No need to apologize. I totally feel the same way.
I'm going to break my "don't comment on CZcams videos" rule to leave a comment. Great video. Makes me want to work harder to be a better ally.
you made SEVERAL POINTS w/t this video & you are 100% correct. i’m so happy to see someone on CZcams make this kind of video, especially in response to that article. you’re a fantastic speaker & content maker, and you summed up these issues so beautifully. thank you, keep doing your thing!! 💖👏💖
The one thing I will say about Twilight, as a Native person, is that, while I am sure that there are Native people who may have actually enjoyed it (for God knows whatever reason), there are a LOT of people online who claim to be Native who are not who just like hijacking these conversations.
Thank you for this video! As a white nonbinary person while reading the article I did in general agree with it but there was something wrong about it that I couldn't find the words for... Thank you for making me understand this so much better
I want to put every word of this on sky high billboards!!! 💜💜💜
Jeez. Talk about an argument that goes over people's heads.
I am so, so sorry. I'm in tears over here. I'm a consumer in the Reylo fandom; I add my likes and retweets. The shit from January 2020 in the Star Wars shipping fandom was not okay. I hope things change and those who hold the keys at Lucasfilm, Disney, and every other production company stop being such cowards. We need more people of colour and LGBTQ rep in love stories.
I totally totally get this frustration of not having black/brown ppls perspective in any convo about feminism and toxic masculinity. I see a lot of convos about toxic masculinity talk about how men have always been expected to suppress their emotions, remain strong, etc. But there are many women of color who are expected to have these same traits in their communities, whether it’s due to the domestic violence or religious suppression. For example, in certain middle eastern and SOME (not all) Indian cultures, having a daughter is almost like a sin and there are many instances where the family would rather abort than have the daughter. But if they have a son, they are treated like a king, they must have the perfect girl given to them at marriage. Any daughters that are there live silently in oppression, and no matter how much they serve or pour their hearts out, they will never receive the same love just because they’re not born a male. I understand toxic masculinity exists, but the type where the men are expected to be strong while the women are allowed to freely express their emotions is honestly more specific to white American/Western European culture.
And many black/brown women are trying to fight thru the complicated issues of their communities. As a brown woman, I personally have not had a fantasy romance like many white women get and don’t really expect to get one. A lot of that had to do with pressure from my family and community not to date until I was older, or else rumors would spread like wildfire. I used to get dirty and racist jokes and comments from white guys at my high school, asking why my hair was a certain way, why I didn’t have a bf, if I would ever consider sucking someone’s dick, etc. I was the “goody two shoes” they wanted to mock and secretly hated, but the truth is I was trying to balance btw keeping my family happy while trying to be American enough for my friends.
Then I would see how the white girls would get nice compliments and gifts and roses, or there were the cool girls who hung out with the guys. I spent so long trying to figure out who I should please and who I should be like that I forgot about myself.
And then my sister got to the age of marriage (usu starting from 21-22) and I saw how my family and all the aunties in the community got weird around her. They would constantly pester her, relatives started contacting men in India without her permission, my mom setup a website account specifically for brown ppl, ALL without my sisters permission when she was out working. Expectation are the same for both men and women, sometimes even more expected from women, so there’s no toxic masculinity but rather a 2-way high standard list. The girl must by young, somewhat fair, slim, not too short and not too tall, educated with MD or PhD, or if not working a good job (like engineering or software or something of that sort), but also expected to be domestic enough to meet the standards of the in laws (bc in a lot of brown cultures family expectations are priority over the couple’s). Similar standards for men, but don’t have to be domesticated.
My sister met some of these men after being urged by my parents. They all ended up being jerks and frauds who lied on their profiles and were so disrespectful, but their parents never scolded their sons for their behavior. I remember how heartbroken she was at how she’d been treated. Finally she found someone on her own and I was so happy. When my parents found out, they fought for months bc he wasn’t Indian. Finally they have come to accept him, but my mother still hesitates to even show the rest of my family pics of him bc she’s worried how they’ll react since he’s not Indian.
Many women in non-white cultures constantly live in shame and romances are short lived or non-existent. I’m thankful to my sister for opening my parents minds so it may be easier for me in the future to be in a relationship of my choice. My mom does keep pressuring me about marriage though, but she’s being a bit nicer about it this time. I know there are many women of color out there fighting the good fight to make things better for their communities but it won’t be easy breaking certain stigmas, from the both their own community and from white ppl. The duality makes it all the more complicated, but don’t ever let anyone make you feel like any less of a woman ever. You all deserve a MILLION roses and a galaxy of prom dances with the dreamiest gentlemen (or women or anything in between 😉😉😉)
Ever since reading that article I’ve been feeling gross about it thank you so much for vocalizing the issues with it
I’m not a black person, but I do love Finn/Rey and I kind of get Reylo, but I don’t ship it at all. Since I don’t ship Reylo and never saw it, in Rise of Skywalker, that ship felt forced to me and more catering to those shippers. I just love Finn/Rey a lot more because of their chemistry and friendship. I do wish Finn could’ve been the main character because his background story as a Stormtrooper was so interesting and unique. Poe felt bland to me throughout all of those movies.
I ship other interracial pairings too like Shawn and Angela. I hated how the writers screwed her over in Girl Meets World. Kinda off topic, but I do ship Snape and Lily since you mentioned it.
I love Finnrey and dislike Reylo in the films as well, Reylo in the fan art/fanfiction department though is great.
OMG, when you mentioned Bamon!! I still can't believe I sat through so many seasons of TVD and had to watch all these terrible couples get together (Alaric and Caroline? For real? lmao), but Damon and Bonnie were never allowed to happen when they had so much history and chemistry, and Bonnie had to be stuck with the lamest love interests (Jeremy and Enzo... UGH) and treated like a punching bag. What a terrible show tbh, they got away with so much racist shit.
As usual, is a delight to listen to you speak. It amazes me how people think a fictional pairing between two white cis people is more important than John Boyega getting called racial slurs. I don't care what people ship, it's never okay to ignore the racism in fandom.
Don't get me started on TVD. In the end Bonnie got no one/a ghost and everyone else got somebody for their little shitty happy endings.
You made a lot of really good points in this video! I have never shipped Reylo myself, (tbh I always saw FinnRey as an ideal pairing, in-universe) but looking at a lot of the things Anti-Reylos say that might be valid, it makes me be careful to look at what I DO ship in other fandoms and make sure I'm not copping a double-standard; I don't want to find myself condemning one thing in Star Wars and condoning it somewhere else.
All this to say, great video, great views, and I agree with your comments! Thanks so much for posting this ✨👌🏻✨
Melina, your videos are always detailed; articulate, well thought out and worthy of a strong argument that can produce a fun discussion. i mean that.
Hot take Martha was way better than Rose. Also Bill in Doctor Who was a treasure who wasn't on the show long enough.
Also I wasn't fond of Rey as a character (she could have been great, but she didn't get handled well at all) so I was always more fond of Finn/Poe because those two were great together.
The saddest part is she probably spent more time explaining how Reylo shippers are the most oppressed people in the world than the writers spent on TROS script.
👏😂
oof tea
I think the writers of TROS spent about three months working on the script, that's the average time that is spent on a screeplay.
Dolled up? Mel, you are gorgeous no matter what you do! Love your content
As a Mexican Star Wars fan Ive been a fan of FinnRey since The Force Awakens came out. Thats a wholesome ship, thats a good ship. Finn was done dirty by The Rise of Skywalker in order to appeal to white female fans who couldnt handle Rey being with a black man.
I've said this before but being a fan of color is exhausting because you constantly have to defend not just yourself but any non-white character and it's even harder when you're black. Like I don't think I'd have a problem with Reylo or the shippers in general if they just admit that there is a race problem in shipping, especially when it comes to Star Wars. It's just so frustrating.
Plus being an anti anti isn't a minority identity. It's definitely not a race either. So it's extra offensive to repackage language that black social justice activists used to make it be about shipping. It's even worse when white fandom bloggers do that.
I know its possible to have civilized discussions with Reylo shippers. Not all of them are acting a fool. I don't even have a problem with the ship itself. What I have a problem with are the delusional and racist shippers of Reylo who are proclaiming their innocence in harrassing Boyega for the eternity of his SW career. Not all Reylo shippers harassed Boyega, but a huge number of the fans who did it are,, and they refuse to acknowledge it, and that's my issue.
“Reylo is not more important than racism” AMEN! I get the ship, I really do. As a gay man, I shipped Fin and Poe. But the twisting of the issue, and the absolute ignorance over what John Boyega, Kelly Marie Tran, Oscar Isaac, and Naomi Ackie went through just highlights how damn toxic and racist and ignorant so much of the fan base is. The part that always gets me is that Finn was set up as a Jedi. In all of Disney’s promotional material for “The Force Awakens”, Finn is holding the blue lightsaber. His dual with Kylo Ren was shown in the trailer. Then suddenly, they said, “just kidding here’s a white woman”. The producers completely pushed Finn to the sidelines, and poor Rose was completely fridged in “Rise of Skywalker.” Jannah was fucking amazing. I loved her bow and arrow, so unique, and her story was incredible too and then she was also just dropped.
Thank you so much for this video! Everything you said. Especially from 14:48 hit me DEEP! I'll come back and comment again when I can gather my thoughts. Thanks again! This needed to be said. Your channel means a lot.
Late, but gawd do I love Martha. She is probably one of my favorite NuWho companions and I never got why anyone would be upset at her developing feelings for The Doctor. A smart, attractive man comes out of nowhere and shows you allo of space and time, yeah totes falling for. Her realizing she was a rebound and leaving on her own terms, and letting the friendship develop the way Martha wanted was baller as fuck.
I was far more into the idea of Poe and Finn together, and Reye going on adventures on her, and Kylo being left as the sad boi he deserves to be.
Lando loved a droid and people lost their minds.
Oh god I can still remember the horrible thumbnails in my recommended.
This. one of the things that always frustrates me especially being a black woman fan, is that the ships i like, the ones that has people that look like me, almost never become canon. I knew Finnrey wasn't going to happen.
Well done! People have lost the ability to understand fictional context as fiction. And when people miss the plot there,they miss the actual social intersections. When one attributes utter importance to the lightsaber colors and lengths,it becomes impossible to discuss what actually matters.
I have been binging your channel since I stumbled across you, and I am in LOVE with your style and passion for everything you talk about. You are also the first person I've come across who saw the hate for Gwen on Merlin and felt that same anger and hurt about how she and that ship was treated solely because of the race of the beautiful, graceful, regal actress cast to play her. Thank you for all you're doing!! Keep it up!! ❤️❤️❤️
I hate that we feel this stress and I don't wish it on anyone BUT more than anything, I wish more fans of popular media do the work to understand other fans of the things we love. Why fight when we can lure in even MORE diverse fans, which will undoubtedly snowball into better and better content -- both fan and cannon?? It's just so sad and frustrating. As always, well said, and happy to see you and other creators moving this conversation forward. :D
Wow. I am near speechless. This is so powerful and important. There is so much to unpack. For me personally, I never cared when people pooped on my ships cuz it’s my ship. It happens in my version/universe of the story [+]
Thank you for sharing your feelings. It can be tiring to be apart of these fandoms, but it's down right disheartening when it feels like no one's listening. There are several fandoms that this applies to, though at the moment I was thinking about the ship of Thor and Valkyrie (since they're from one of my favorite movies). When you add in the bisexual factor it feels like even the people you should have camaraderie with will still put whiteness/the binary first. I definitely feel like the writers/directors cooled things down because of the race factor, especially with Jane coming back. I'm interested in your thoughts regarding queer WOC and shipping.
I've been thinking about this as well! I remember reading that the writers originally wrote Thor and Valkyrie to be romantically interested in each other during Ragnorak, but they replaced the writer and that got scraped.There was also a lot of racist backlash ( Tessa Thompson spoke about this during an interview).
@@nadiajohnson1517 Damn, I would've loved the ship even more if they were romantically inclined in the film :(
I totally feel you on fandoms being fucking exhausting sometimes. I never saw the reason to really fight over ships because it's all based on emotions & kinks. I understand why some people can get defensive because a ship can be very personal, but that doesn't excuse racist and/or sexist behavior from anyone.
EDIT:
And yes, the poc cast members deserved so much better, from both the fans & the filmmakers.
this is kind of off topic, but in fandoms, i've noticed wlw ships and interracial ships being either tokenized (as bg characters for a white male gay ship or a white straight ship, or as a short shoutout, never as a main ship) and that makes it harder to ship them? like, if there's less content, it's not as easy to fall into it, you know? and that's if there are enough women/poc/woc in a show to be able to ship ppl *at all* The only interracial ship that got popular that I can think of is Klance from Voltron.
@J W "femslash" & "lesbian" are fine terms, just not popular anymore.
I know that a lot of this is actually personal taste. I only think it may have a political *component* because, *from what I have seen*, it's inordinately rare. My Hero Aca is a really large fandom & the series has a lot of cool female characters, but while there are absolutely wlw ships, they always seemed tokenized & pushed to the back. Meanwhile, m/m ships about barely fleshed out side characters gained steam.
To be honest... this post exists because I have never really gotten into a wlw relationship in fiction. I think, in my case, it's a mix of me having internalized misogyny (I find the idea of a passive/passive relationship boring... but that's not how women are?) and me not seeing very many complicated, interesting w/w retionships in media. Soooo.... idk. In the end, you're right. It's not that big of a deal.
Congratulations on figuring out your identity!
Thank you for taking the time to say all this and let me listen.
Yeah! I really liked Martha on Dr. Who - I felt like she was kind, and smart, and had a gentle strength about her that a lot of the other companions lacked, and just because she was black and ha unrequited feelings for The Doctor after his loss of Rose, she was shit on. But she was seriously one of the most badass and competent companions he ever had!
Thank you for your perspective! I feel like I leave your videos having learned something new.
I know plenty of writers of all kinds and across the board they'll get White fans telling them, "I know you these characters are X, but I'm gonna imagine them as Y." Which is in their right, I guess, but why include the writer in this conversation? And it's such a pressure all around to make characters White Cis Hetero upper middle class or straight up rich. *rubs temples* There is so much content out there, if that's what they want... why come to the few diverse writers and push that on them? Disenfranchised groups change things, because they can't find representation. One of my closest writer friends has specifically made a female lead character dark brown yet every week her FB group has fans posting light skin girls. And every week she has to affirm that her character is dark skinned. She's Black. From a Black family. 100% Black. Her twin..... he's Black too. It's so frustrating to watch, but she's gotta bite her tongue and be professional. She's much better than me, I would have snapped. She's got pics for all her characters and her mods will directed fans to them. There is no secret or subtlety in the text or in her fandom who is what.
When it comes to seeing the Snyder cut or getting Sonic's teeth changed its grest to have that fan pressure, but also these writers and studios need to also have a vision and figure out what is best for a storyline and arc over doing fan service. Fans arent (for the most part) writers. They don't really know how stories and all its elements work. It's like letting a child direct the ingredients going into a cake. They're gonna keep adding sugar and sprinkles and not care if there are ingredients that support a cakes structure, etc.
It's easy to say it's not about race when it's not the characters who look like you that are being killed off or relegated to the background all the time.
"SHIPPING IS NOT REPRESENTATION" FUCKING THANK YOU. this article has me so beyond angry to this day. as a finn stan, as a finnrey shipper, and just as a feminist in fandom in general. there is a massive, massive difference between "things that are traditionally made for women and girls come under harsher scrutiny" versus "if you don't like this fictional thing or support the people who do, you're anti-feminist." and reylos know that. they completely co-opted this argument for their own benefit to give reylo a veneer of "female empowerment", all while stepping over john, oscar, and kelly to do it. no room for discussion, no room for intersectionality, and it is disgusting. something i hate about fandom nowadays, especially on tumblr, is this idea that there has to be a moral or "social justice" reason to enjoy something (any scott mccall stans out there remember "agenda shipping?"). if reylos just came out and said, "i like reylo because i think adam driver is hot" i would respect them a lot more. instead, they have to twist social justice language to make it seem like they're morally in the right. fandom is supposed to be fun, and while there is something to be said for the racist sidelining of kelly, john, and oscar for kylo/reylo, the bottom line is, *i don't need an excuse or agenda to like finn or scott mccall.* i like their characters, period. but people like mccort can't comprehend why anyone would actually enjoy characters of color *without* some "secret social justice" agenda behind it. and there's a reason why that is.
"People who care about race and abusive portrayals in sories are basically the same as right wingers, they don't care about anything, both these groups just hate women and want to silence them!" This is the gist of the article Im getting from just reading it. But its so long tho so we'll see.
Oh, this was a fantastic video. Thank you! All I can say. This video made me feel too much to express properly what I loved about this the most, so just... Thanks :) And I want to hug you... so, here's a virtual hug for you. I hope it'll comfort you.
Best,
A 32-year-old geek with a twenty-year-old history in various fandoms who grew out of shipping due to a lot of toxicity involved.
Thank you for putting into words how alienating that was
very glad i finally decided to watch this video of yours. i have (somehow) fallen down a rabbithole of reylo fic despite watching none of this chapter of star wars films. even with my very nebulous understanding of this cast of characters and how they all relate to one another... i have seen some questionable characterizations, pairings and even character omissions or “reassignments” that have made me raise an eyebrow - especially regarding finn. this plus my suspicions that fanon kylo ren/reylo is a much more sanitized version of their canon makes me rather hesitant to watch the films.
i think it’s important to have these sorts of conversations. it really sucks that these communities centered around fictional stories and relationships run rampant with racist overtures/undertones. the “it’s not about race/why does it always have to be about race” arguments are soooo overplayed at this point. can we get some constructive discourse going?? jeez. over it.
thank you as always for your perspective, it’s much appreciated 🙏🏾
Omg I don’t know you but I am sending you a virtual hug!!! I agree with everything you said, and I wanna also add that I think it’s totally possible to have a discussion about what sorts of relationships are responsible to glorify in kid’s media without blasting people who like that ship, AND without saying “this should be illegal and banned”
Ship what ever you want, but that won't change that the movies were a mess.
I’m going to return to this video whenever I doubt my feelings as I navigate my favorite ships cautiously enter new fandoms. I’ve been reading fanfiction for 22 years and it hasn’t gotten any easier 🥴
Kara spent the entire first season of Supergirl pining over Jimmy. She finally gets him in the season finale and then literally out if the blue some white dude (Mon-El) is like NOPE!
I'm late to this party, but I'll still add my two cents. This article screams ~white feminism~. The fact that it focus on this particular aspect of the Star Wars fandom, how the fans treat Reylo shippers as opposed to say, the blantaly racists that spent all this time harassing John Boyega and Kelly Marie Tran (to the point that her character was made completely irrelevant in the last movie!!! I will never forgive JJ Abrams for that btw, effing coward) is extremely telling. You can't explicitly point out that someone is being racist by shipping two white people, but racism is structural and internalized so, I'm sorry but if there is a poc involved, racism can and probably will be a factor. I was never a Finn/Rey shipper, but I would be okay with them being a thing (Finn/Poe aka StormPilot fan here lol), although the whole "everyone wants the love of the white woman" does come a lot to mind when I think of these type of interracial couple configuration (it's a little hard to avoid these kind of discussions/thoughts as a black/mixed race latina woman). But still, any interracial couple is still progress when 99% of media only show us white straight cis people loving each other.
I know this wasn't the focus of the video, but I had no idea there was hate about Arthur/Gwen. I didn't get into the show until years after the finale, so I missed all the fandom drama. And I was just... Gwen is so nice? And a character with SO much potential! I loved when she was on screen, and I was happy for the Arwen ship. (THOUGH... Morgwen forever.)
But also, alongside gay ships being used to justify pushing out ships with POC, you definitely see a similar thing with f/f ships (with or without POC). And when you do see f/f ships, it can often feel like "pair the spares", and they get relegated to the background in fanfiction (if you see them at all).
Martha Jones is the best companion nobody can change my mind!
thank you so much for making this video! (essay processing my feelings ahead)
im a white girl who's outside the star wars fandom and mildly shipped reylo and finnpoe after seeing the last jedi and the force awakens once. i remember when this happened i had to mute any phrase related to reylo and just get off twitter for a while because the harassment in my feed was so intense. this is one of those issues that is so easy to get lost in. i really didn't understand where the hatred was coming from as my only interactions with the star wars fandom had been the movies themselves and some of my friends in real life.
from the outside looking in, especially at the point where it hit my circle of david tennant twitter, all i saw was slander, harassment, and actual abuse in the forms of doxxing and death threats. it's a little triggering even now just with the intensity of the shit i was seeing especially without context. i saw the arguments of how reylo could be used by racists against finn, agreed with them, checked myself and my motivations (i just liked reylo's dynamic in tlj and i liked finn/poe and finn/rose better), and moved on, but i get how someone more deeply entrenched in that culture wouldn't be inclined to do so.
fandom and people in general love to dogpile on anything they have a reason to hate. it's why 'cancel culture' is so prevalent. it feels good to just point at something, be mad at it, and move on. that's what i saw when i saw the reylo discourse from a distance: a bunch of people hating a ship because it was the thing to hate at the moment, and moving on.
this video helped so much with contextualizing the outburst and where it was coming from. for a little while now i've been making an effort to analyze my ships and why i'm drawn to some and not to others, and where my biases lie. race in media and fandom is so infuriating to engage with as a fan simply because a lot of times it isn't done well. (this happens with lgbt stuff too, but i haven't noticed the same level of outcry about interracial ships that you see with queerbaiting.) i don't have many interracial ships, but when i think about it most of the fandoms im in simply don't have the content. i personally need canon basis for my ships, but in so many shows poc exist but they aren't given the same level of development or complexity as the usually white and usually male leads.
it's important to build up a culture of self criticism and analysis. why do i like this thing? is this thing good? do i like it for prejudiced reasons? the answers can be complex but even just the act of thinking about them requires self reflection and growth. the star wars fandom drama specifically has done a strong job of spotlighting the kneejerk racist and sexist reactions to media. i loved rose when i saw tlj, and seeing the scale of the backlash to her was frankly horrifying but a good reminder of just how prevalent racism is. acknowledging your personal biases is a necessary part of interacting with the world, and seeing shit like the reylo drama, especially when both sides were facing oppression in different ways, just affirms that necessity.
this shit is hard and there is never a simple answer, but as long as we make an effort to be better i think we haven't lost.
That’s why I’m creating a majority black cast independent tv and comic fantasy series. It will be out sometime next year. We need our own space our own stories and black females will be represented properly!!!!!!
Girl, I wish you could see yourself in the content you watch. We need to do better! You're making me tear up here AND I'M NOT EVEN A SHIPPER. Sending love and positive energy your way.
I know why I have long since dropped out of active fandom. I just write my stupid fanfics and ships when I feel good enough to and ignore everything because fandoms in general just seem to get more and more toxic ... and I always had the feeling that fandoms tended to be pretty hostile against female characters in general.
Makes me sad to hear you and everyone else has to listen to so much shit just for shipping the people whom you like. I can relate to it a little bit, but only on a very small scale.
Also, I feel Media fuels that particular inacceptance of interracial ships by portraying them so seldom. It's like whenever you see a movie you just know 99% of the time who is going to end up together.
"There is no black woman whose mentions are without fuckery."
A little louder for the folks in the back!!! I felt her rage on this one. What are we even talking about in 2020?
"I do the work to unpack that... Y'all have to do the same." I couldn't agree more. Especially now in 2020, I've been working really hard to do exactly that. It's uncomfortable and it is not easy, but it's absolutely vital (and your videos have been extremely helpful in aiding me to do so; thank you for that).
Stumbled into your videos by accident and have been enjoying them. This video spoke to me. This video got also you a new patreon supporter.
Important: "Reylo is not more important than racism!"
Side Note: Reylo is definitely not unique. I remember before TROS, there was some interesting content @StarWarsConnection discussing Reylo in terms of literary references (Jane Austen, Charlotte Bronte, Byron, etc.). It was in between that time of TLJ tension and the TROS confirmation, so it was a pretty open space to explore that ship.
I actually thought finnray would happen bc they acted like how all other ships like that start, but you got the experience to know it wouldn't happen. That makes me so sad at how predictable people's implicit biases are.
They had such a perfect friends to lovers set up, there was honestly so much potential!
"I ship Zutara" Aaah I see you're a man of culture as well.
This is such a necessary video, omg! I just wanted to thank you and comment, as a die hard Merthur shipper, that I never really thought about Arthur and Gwen having zero chemistry and that being related to Gwen's blackness. I love Gwen as character so much (it's the first version of Guinevere that I don't hate, tbh) and, as black woman, I should have paid more attention. On the other hand, tho I watched Merlin as it was airing, I never joined the fandom till very recently, so I guess I missed most of the discussion around it... Even so, me being a black woman, I really should've paid more attention
/aaaand now i've finished your video! i appreciate your input :) you are passionate and intelligent, and you're good at articulating yourself! i understand much better your point and what other people have also said. it is a bit weird to only focus one part of the misogny in the star wars fandom and not bring up racism as well, and where they both intersect. thanks for pointing that out!
I have been watching your videos and heard all the Avatar comments and wondered who you shipped for a little bit. And yes! Zutara. :D
reylos were way too quick to attack john boyega when that happened. had it been adam driver, the shaved mole rat it would have played out differently. when a reylo says "its not about race" its DEFINITELY about race
ugh not surprised. they were writing kylo native american au fics way back in 2015. nasty af
@That One Even when Adam himself says he is a white man and has benefited from white male privilege. They still insist that he is Native American and say that he keeps it "secret" because he is afraid of not getting roles. Yet, they can't admit to the fact that John Boyega being black impacts the venom and hatred they spew his way and the racism he has to face in the Star Wars racism.
Tracy Simms, ugh barf can they not. He’s a white nan who isn’t bothered to be one and is highlighted and celebrated by Hollywood. I mean is this not what whites have been decrying when they attack representation and diversity? Why are they so quick to try and protect it by asserting an ethnicity that isn’t real when they don’t even listen to us anyways.
@That One
How did that even happen? Like yeah Adam doesn't look like peak white but he's still white.
Martha is the best Doctor companion !!
I never realised that raylo was even a massive ship. I came massively late to the game, and I can say I really didn’t like that ship and was begging in the cinema for them not to kiss lol 😂
lol I was loving this until you said that you ship zutara because I will always be a kataang shipper
But in all seriousness love your content, please keep up the videos they are fantastic!!!!!!!!!!
I can’t deal with Zutara either my dude, it’s so rare to see a POC content creator that I adore shipping Aang and Katara together 😂
That line from 13:04 to 13:10 encapsulates so perfectly the way yt people act in fandom (and life in general, tbh).
I'm so tired of fandom folks using "its all just fandom shipwar bullshit" to dismiss any fandom critical discourse, and then turn around to use the language of oppression and social justice as a shield for their fandom shipwar bullshit.
thank you for saying this!
Honestly the Martha season was the only season I liked of Doctor Who😂
I'm a white dude, but Martha was such a fucking strong companion and she was my absolute favourite companions period, because she was able to keep a straight head even when the Doctor was freaking out! I was absolutely perplexed to see her getting shat on to the point where I was wondering if I'd even watched the same show
I've only seen two videos of yours but both are incredibly good takes on the subject matter. Subscribed.
Loved hearing your thoughts on this.
they way people treat shipping and fandom like some sort of social justice cause...
While I do like Rey and Kylo's dynamic (though I wasn't hoping for any romantic payoff), Rey and Finn has more chemistry than all the official couples in Star Wars.
You're irrefutably correct.
Reylos just hated the idea of s Blackman getting with a white woman , it's gonna happen sometime in old republic saga . Anyways Finn and Rey will hook up in the comic in future stories he force strong and him and Rey have a strong bond clearly showing she is done when he sensed her death
God I hope so
Thank you. I think we're all exhausted of essentially having eyes rolled at us for even MENTIONING race in fandom.
Your eyebrows though 😍 youre seriously so pretty!!!!!!!
Gwen/Arthur is the canon ship of the whole fucking Arthurian mythology. They were cute as fuck and anyone who says that ship was homophobic can fight me! And in my mind, there were a bout two alternate universes.
1) Arthur, Merlin, and Gwen formed a poly
2) Arthur/Merlin and Gwen/Morgana
I will accept nothing less
Zutara FTW. Yeah they had a better chemistry/rivalry and friendship than Aang and Katara.
Kid Danger should have totally dated his girl best friend! 😞
RIGHT!!!?!?! And they're such teases for having that episode where Charlotte has a dream where she kisses Henry and absolutely nothing comes of it. They didn't even do anything when Jasper thought Charlotte had a crush on him. Like really? Really? I'm sorry if you have no idea what I'm talking about I'm just heated. I've been heated from day one.
Yep. Re dr who I started with season 3 and low key hated Rose because the amount of shit talking I heard about Martha when she was perfectly fine. Her literal only character flaw was she loved the doctor too much (but not enough to destroy the world). I don’t hate Rose but I’ll never like her for how much people deified her and shat on Martha and Mickey and then fucking Davies pairing the two of them together as if they were even fucking friends first.
I loved this video so much! Such a balanced and informative video.
I dislike reylo as well, personally, I don't care about shipping it I just didn't want it to be canon (which is sort of is now? idk) because unlike the other ships you mentioned those were more "adult" or "teenage" shows. ST being a family and children friendly series I always thought something like reylo was too dark to explore. But I agree it is nothing new, It's Delena, Spuffy, etc. It's nothing new and will always exist. I just think there is a time and place to explore dark relationships, also you have to make sure to do them correctly.
I feel also very insulted at the idea that "Finnrey shippers never made content" comment by the author, I made plenty of gifsets and edits. They never did that well on my blog, and while I don't want to say I do everything for a reblog or alike after a while I thought what was the point of making gifsets or edits (which take a lot of work) if I barely get any notes. Even my edits of just Finn didn't do as well of my "anti reylo" gifsets did or my Solo sibling gifsets theories did. So eventually I gave up, maybe that's on me but I hate the implication the fandom never tried. Literally, there was the whole account called Finnrey-Fridays which had people post Finn and Rey content on Fridays for fun.
And I agree with you about how exhausted the situation has become, I feel completely drained to talk anything about ST. The whole sequel trilogy boiled down to this reylo discussion, which has more or less destroyed the fandom.