Was Rating Update Good For Us?
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- čas přidán 13. 01. 2023
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I've seen people actively brag about their number while at the same time admitting how theyr'e quitting games not to lose points, without them seeing anything wrong with that scenario. Actually deranged.
When I used to play For Honor me and the people I played with developed a phrase "ranked is a circus and people who take it seriously are clowns" because it was so easy to exploit the system to climb. It was sort of hilarious to see these people brag about how their top 10 meanwhile footage of them exploiting these things is circulating on the daily. Just plain delusion.
Sad.
Pfp Sauce (Artist)? 🗿
@@SimoneBellomonte Sinensian (nsfw)
Reminds me of a GDC talk on cursed game design problems. The idea is that any kind of gameplay makes implicit promises to its players about what kind of experience to expect. If those promises contradict each other, it's a cursed problem. Cursed problems cannot be resolved except by altering one or more of the player promises.
It's a great talk and I really recommend checking it out.
underrated comment
do you have a link?
@@moil6384 Links seem to automatically flag a comment as spam and hide it, but it's on CZcams if you search for it
I've seen that video, also highly reccomend.
@@lilliangoulston5706 Just split the link in 2 or use a text to hexadecimal converter, that’s how I always bypass CZcams’s bullshit censorship.
I used rating update to look at my character win percentage to see which match ups I need practice in and would seek those characters out in the tower. I just wish some of this data wasn't obfuscated within Strive itself
Same here. I thought I had a Sin problem and I confirmed it when I checked ratingupdate and saw I had a 20% winrate against Sin ;-;
@@meethepie make sure to throw or stuff the follow up dash it’s twenty frames
Almost never press buttons after the elk hunt follow up he’s plus 8
Throw out some low hitting attacks in neutral to catch elk hunt
Faultless defence his block strings in the corner or they loop
@Speenta I know the dash is technically reactable but it looks so similar to elk hunt that I end up getting caught by it 9/10 times, and am afraid to fuzzy it since elk follow-up frame traps.
Major contributing factor is that I don't have the DLC or I woulda labbed him out a lot more
@@meethepie for real the training mode is awesome but if you could lab dlc it would be perfect
If the tower didn't suck so much it wouldn't have been needed. The skill difference on floor 10 is stupid.
It's really good for TO's to seed and host beginner tournaments, so I want it back
I pulled up Rating Update after a long session to see what level of players I was playing against. Celestial feels like floors 11-30 in one room, so it's nice to have a little more context regarding who you got annihilated by.
I know somebody who thought that the very act of playing ranked in a competitive game meant that you were hopeful for a career. It's pretty obvious which competitive game he was into.
Clarification, I mean league. Bringing the idea of competitive games into a fighting game makes me wonder if using strong mindsets in other competitive games can help you in any of the genre.
Me vibing in a floor 6 to 8 blender. Ah yes, funny number.
After I checked Rating Update out of curiosity, my performance in the tower tanked. I got really wrapped up in the "proper" elo for a bit, especially as I started to recognize the names of people I'd beaten easily and won tons of points from as people I was suddenly struggling with. And whether they simply put in more time than me and got better (likely, my day job is busy and I don't get to practice as much as I'd like) or if my mental just got that jacked up, I just got worse and worse. I felt really down on myself, and while I've managed to mostly discard these concepts thanks to people like you, Romolla, Lord Knight, and Sajam, I still feel an anxiety spike going into the tower. I wish I'd never looked at Rating Update.
This is why Strive was wise enough to make the tower a meaningless rank system. Every publicly visible elo game community turns into toxic mess.
I don't remember how but I found Rating Update within the first month of me playing Strive because I somehow managed to flounder my way into Celestial and I was curious what kind of drain-cleaner-straight-into-the-eyeball Chipp I had faced as my fourth match in Celestial because I was bummed out that I had just gotten so absolutely thrashed. Well that Chipp turned out to be ZIN and Rating Update helped me realize the actual scope of Celestial. Even though I didn't put much weight into my own numbers, it did help to gauge my win% against certain matchups, letting me find out what I needed to work on and such.
Then I switched from Baiken to Anji and it all went downhill from there.
Gekko is this just you confessing to an ELO addiction?
Wouldn’t people obsess over their number anyway if there was a proper skill based match-making?
Worth mentioning that, at least from my exp, that sometimes there's not enough players in the first place for the matchmaking to function correctly.
I didn't there was this kind of website
but thanks I checked it and now I see that I struggle a lot against Millia
I think people often use these things backwards, yeah. You should play, learn, try your best, and then you can check your number and say ah, that's where I'm at give or take. OK. Instead people make the number their goal, and they'll abuse the system yet still pretend their number means their skill somehow. Just odd.
When a metric becomes a target kit ceases to be a good metric
Lets goo new vid 🔥🔥🔥🔥 love your vids
The lack of a “ranked” system is really fucking with us xD
Rating Update was never flawed. It's implementing a fairly standard system of ranking players. Celestial may be flawed, and you may not like how the ELO system works, and some players may overfocus on numbers, but none of that is on ratingupdate. It's just an implementation.
Ayo, Pinhead mentioned, huge W for the channel tbh
It's back!
I've actually seen plenty of former Celestial or current Celestial players as low as 1200~ on Rating Update, which also felt around when most players can start getting the challenge regularly.
Rating Update was the only way for anyone without the money to go to tournaments to actually get known.
What about online tournaments?
@@joeyrhubarb2558 no one has any respect for those for whatever reason, while also saying rollback is just like playing with someone sitting next to you
Me watching the top 100 scroll by: "There I am Garry there I am!"
Whats that bgm at the beginning sounds pretty familiar
pros of playing on console: not having to worry about things like ratings and hackers
cons of playing on console: not having access to more character colors
I'm still waiting on you to talk about Blazblue and your opinion on the game series, or the characters, or literally anything about it. :3
Rating update never updated for me besides like one match when I started playing Strive, meaning it was great for me since according to the website I had a perfect winning streak of 1.
Good points. I still would prefer for RU to be up tho, since it's pretty useful for various reasons and gives you at least some feel of progression (which is hard to get past certain level), but there is no doubt the system is flawed
If an official number was assigned to players based on their skill, lots of people would be malding so hard. If people using rating update are already getting obsessive about it. Just imagine everyone getting in their feelings about a number placement that is just smacked on their screen showing how bad or good they are.
I personally liked RU. But I was one of those people that checked it maybe after every second playsession. So overall I didn´t fuss about the numbers. I just found them interesting to atleast get a rough idea where I am standing.
My thoughts on Celestial are still the same as last year. I really hate it. I guess my problem is that I am a type of player that sits somewhere in between a casual and a dedicated FGC member. I mainly play for fun and pretty much all I ever labbed were a few combo routes. I still regularly get into Celestial without picking my matches. And when I get there I play there because floor 10 players are usually not to interesting to play to me. But at the same time I really don´t want to play those level 5000 Nagos, HCs and so on. They just roll over me and even if I wanted to try out stuff and analyze my game to get better I don´t even have the chance for that. All I want is to play some equally strong opponents and get matched against stronger opponents as my skill level naturally rises with the time I spend in the game. But ever since I got to the point of reaching celestial on a regular basis that has been pretty much taken from me. Most matches are rather one sided and simply not as much fun anymore as a result
I think it's a bit reductive to boil down RU's main functionality to elo. I was struggling to improve as Sol, and thanks to Rating Update saw that I had bad winrates against characters with strong pre-emptive attacks like Ramlethal, Sin, Testament and Faust. Thanks to that info, the people in the Sol channels were able to give me the exact advice I needed and sure enough I started smoking Rams left and right. It's also a good tool for running beginner tournaments
I managed to get onto the top 100 in RU, and it was at times nerve wracking, when I started to care about my number it made me super self conscious of my matches, losing to a lower elo player made me tilt, I just thought to myself “This is gonna tank my elo”, I know several other players who managed to be in the top 100 and they too felt a similar way, we all worried about it too much and just focused on the number.
But i do want to highlight one of the positives of RU, it did a good job at showing strong players, I meet strive friends by just comparing my funny number and trying to beat each other in the rankings, but at long term it didn’t have a positive impact on us, and now that the site is broken I feel like I can breathe easier now
How you holding up now that it's back? lol
@@ZawaOnCZcams im in like the top 5 with my main last time I checked, I try to not look at it too much or else it might just affect my mental
they shood maybe do somthing like ssbu with a score (that is not shown) in combination with the current system.
I saw this happen over a decade ago when Glicko-2 (the same rating system) was used in the Pokemon simulator Shoddy Battle. I just don't think the system works for ladder/tower systems. Not only that but Glicko-2 doesn't actually give you a single rating (an impression not helped by people calling it an Elo score); the number it tells you first is just the mean rating. The plus/minus is just as important, and for most players it's so high that it renders the whole thing pretty useless (an impression not helped by Felix trying to use the ratings of new players to analyze their tower experiences).
I did an experiment where I created a randomizer weighted according to each of my characters' rating values and used that to pick characters until I hopefully got my picks consistently narrowed down to a handful of characters, ideally one. Over the entire time since I found out about the rating update site, that never happened.
Can You still dodge bad matchups at tower? If so celestial means nothing for the majority.
Honestly the fact that I've no idea what my exact rank is in Strive is one of my favorite parts of the game. I'm not here to worry about implicit imaginary numbers going down, I'm here to play and get better. If I lose 10 matches in a row I do *not* care cause there's no long term consequences for those loses
If the weighted ratings are done properly I feel like the number should still be somewhat accurate like yet it's a bit dependent on chance and who you happen to run into but isn't that the case always anyways. I'm not saying it's perfect and I think the numbers would be more accurate if there was skill based matchmaking in conjunction with the rating system but I think they're still somewhat accurate you know yeah you might end up going as people who are way higher than you but you shouldn't lose a lot of points to those people and if you beat one you should game an exponentially larger amount of points.
Le me watching video where Gekko talks about Celestial while I'm stuck on F8 😁😆😅😪
the music is a bit too loud, thanks for the video!
Oi Gekko, your audio mix is a lil high on the bgm on this one. Cheers
Lobby play would immediately die out in the vein of a new SBMM system and you can see that in rating update itself, let alone the entire community server scene struggling just to survive in a post counterstrike/league world. All it would take is a single pro player to prefer using the sbmm system over lobby to domino the tower into being a ghost town all the way to the lowest levels.
7:36 timing lol
I want it back 😭
A little of topic and a little well not original but I played online for like an hour and a half the other day and wanted to pull out my hair in frustration. So I can imagine having a number associated with it. It would make evey hopeless match feel even more sol crushing
(See what I did there sol crushing )
I'm kinda glad it's gone. I felt like I wouldn't even be allowed to go to locals until I hit F10 and I was worrying about mine and my opponents' rank in every match (I still do though tbh). For me it even took installing a mod that replaces all rank info with a picture of Sajam's face. 😂Also hello I'm Aimee that shy floor 8 Baiken who keeps leaving SFO early and not playing casuals bc I'm embarrassed. 😖
While I'm playing the game more without the website I still get so tilted because I keep slowly reaching floor 9, losing sets and ranking down from going 0-3 in as little as a single set! Before trying to "join the FGC" as a last-ditch effort to make friends, I didn't care about any of that, nor get tilted at games - I think that's why I still put so much pressure on because there's more at stake than just losing a video game.
Would be nice to have an actual ranked mode in strive, too much work for arcsys i guess🗿
rating update destroyed my mental and made me obsessed with arbitrary numbers. i don’t have anything against it, but i do regret checking it because it ruined the game for a couple months for me. i stopped checking it when i realized what it was doing for me.
i decided to check again for the hell of it, and what’s funny is that my elo absolutely tanked because I guess a bug happened where it registered all my recent games as losses lmao
Loving all the Danganronpa music
One time I became the #2 Ky player on ratingupdate and then that same session I dropped down like 20 places. I felt so trash after I closed the game. tbh I'm glad ratingupdate is down. A loss doesn't mean you got worse it just means you have room to grow.
IMO the classic system of Bronze, to silver, to gold, to Platinum, to Crystal with different tiers at each level, (I.E. Silver II, Gold III) is the best way to do it
I managed to make top 1 overall on console on late october @ 2400 ELO (my tag is AXL THROW). After reaching the top l kept getting ducked and 1&doned. I also played the previous #1 player who topped with several characters (menvra) and they ragequitted. And if l lost a match vs a new DLC or a lower ELO player (they all were when l was #1) l would dip significantly like -20 points per loss which is ridiculous if you care about holding your status.
I was tempted to change my tag to GG player and use a secondary just so people wouldn't duck me just by reading my name or seeing my main's level.
I now dipped to like top 42 but am a stronger player. Which means that rating update was flawed because it rewarded ducking, rage quitting, sniping and inactivity.
The less feedback I have from a ranking system while I'm playing the better, IMHO. Between sessions, if there are actually useful statistics, sure. Otherwise, I don't want to know.
Players playing (and losing) against players of significantly lower ELO and losing a bunch of points is the way ELO is supposed to work. In something like chess, someone 2000 will basically never lose to someone 1600, and if they do, they'll indeed lose a bunch of ELO.
The real underlying problem is not that X or Y system is flawed, playing against players of differing skill levels is not a problem, the real problem is the volatility of the game. If you're truly scared of losing against someone 400 or 600 points lower than you, than either your ELO is wrong in the first place, or the game is just too volatile for a solid competitive environment.
It's literally just what a normal ranked MMR looks like in almost any other real competitive game. People taking it too seriously shouldn't be a deterrent to having a real ranked ladder in competitive games imo. Disagree on how it means that the rating doesnt mean anything though. When you look at the best players in the game, they very rarely lose elo to people who are rated much lower than them. Being able to consistently beat lower skilled players is a skill in itself. Although I do think the system could do a better job at looking at the entire set rather than updating after single games.
I'm sorry Gekko, I like your videos and I'm not saying this just to be rude, I'm saying it because I want to see you do better in the future, but this one was really dumb. You can say that you don't like RatingUpdate and that's completely valid, but your reasoning is based on factually incorrect information that a simple google search would've corrected.
It seems your main points at the end of the video are
1. ELO doesn't work for Strive because not every match will be evenly skilled
and 2. Matches against people far from your skill level lead to massive point changes
The problem is that ELO *DOES* work in matches where the players aren't the same skill level, in fact not only was it designed to work with matches where players aren't the same skill level, doing that is literally the ENTIRE POINT of the algorithm. ELO was created for the sole purpose of being an algorithm that can rate players skill when they don't always play opponents of the same skill level. It was literally created for chess tournaments, y'know, those things where massive amount of players of varying skill levels from 'Just decided to try playing in their first tournament' to 'World Champion' play against each other? Hmm, something sounds *awfully familiar* about that. (*cough* *cough* Celestial)
which brings me to point 2, you complaining that matches against players of much higher/lower skill can lead to massive rating changes. Once again, that's not a flaw in ELO, it's literally the entire point of the algorithm. The reason it does that is that, well, statistically that's just the correct thing to do. If I have a 99% chance to beat someone and I lose, that indicates a MASSIVE upset, so it *should* cause a massive change in Rating, because it's so unlikely that it would happen if our ratings were correct.
Or let me put it this way, the idea is that let's say you play 100 opponents that you have a 90% chance to beat. If your rating is correct, you'll gain 10 ELO every time you win, and lose 90 ELO when you lose. If you have a 90% chance to beat those opponents, then we expect that you'll beat 90 of them, and lose to 10, so in the end you gain (90*10)-(10*90) ELO = No change. Now let's say your ELO was wrong, let's say you're better than the system thinks, in that case maybe you'll win 95 matches and lose 5. In that case you'll gain (95*10)-(5*90)=(950-450)=400 ELO. And if you're worse than the system thinks and you only win 85 matches, you'd get (85*10)-(15*90)=(850-1350) = -500 ELO.
(Keep in mind those numbers are only really big because that's the theoretical result of 100 games)
So yeah as you can see, the system will always move you in the correct direction given enough time, meaning that over time your rating will always get more accurate regardless of if you play again opponents of the same skill level or not, and the massive ELO changes from playing against opponents of different skill level isn't a flaw, it's one of the most important parts of the algorithm.
So yeah, in conclusion, it's perfectly fine to dislike RatingUpdate. it's not a perfect system by any means, and it does have a negative affect on some players who end up focusing on it too much, but the reasoning you gave in the video was based on two fundamentally incorrect assumptions which completely undermines anything that you were trying to say in this video. Again, I'm not saying this to be rude or to hate, I'm saying this because I enjoy your content and I'm hoping that in the future you'll do your due diligence and make sure that what you're saying is correct, because I want to see you improve as a content creator so that in the future I'll be able to watch even better videos.
this type of systems are needed but at the same time is needed to be hidden. The reason is because it is useful to match you with people of somewhat the same skill but it is best for the player to not know his mmr to avoid anxiety and abuse of the system.
My point is this should had been done by the devs but as you said the fighting game devs always fuck up the system despite many games outside the genre that have already solved the issues
RatingUpdate is not gone forever, is it? Nothing from Felix suggests they’re done working on it as far as I know.
I got my highest rank, when I didn‘t care about it 😂
I don't play GGST much, but from what I can tell, Ranking system is Very similar to smash GSP. And honestly, that system made me feel like such shit that It made me entirely uninterested in ever playing competitively, at least for that game. Idk what tf they were thinking, but having a big ass number go down everytime you lose just saps motivation to play online ever.
I had 30 straight losses on floor 6 without dropping to 5 a couple weeks ago. I just can't get to 'my' rank.
And then, I repeated that with brand new character. Hit random buttons, without dashing and even specials. 10 straight losses - no drop. It's clearly not the case of 'I play too good for low floors'. (I was at floor 9 twice, maybe I just am prohibited from dropping below 6 ever again?)
Restrictive systems like this annoy me to no end. I just want per-character ranking in the game. (assumes fetal position)
It's like the system invites me to say: Bro, since I'm not falling, let me just spend 3 hours and get you to celestial real quick?
Sorry, I was writing it about what was in december's patchnotes, and not about the rating site:
"To make it easier to match with players of the same skill level, the rule preventing players from falling below a certain floor even after repeated losses based on certain input techniques and floors previously reached has been eased."
Rating Update has no inherent problems, any problems with it are problems that literally any fighting game ranked system has. Placing numbers on skill is impossible, yet people will still make it their mission to do so, AND stake their self worth on it. The number of people who misunderstand rating update in terms of matchups was also inevitable. With the number of new people Strive brought in, it HAD to bring in idiots who simply didn't know anything about the game
In conclusion, the Xrd lobby system is still king among every fighting game
Yeah playing soccer made it worth it
i think i agree with the point that skillbased match making goes out the window if you don't have enough players. ie. a small fighting game.
if you're not mk or street fighter or tekken then too bad its gonna die in a few years or less.....dnf
ELO systems just bread toxicity and put a lot of players in the head space where any experimentation is bad cos it makes your number go down even though it's essential to improving
I really hope Arcsys adds ranked to Strive someday. The reason why it isn’t there is a good reason considering arcsys’s past. But given how Strive popped off really really hard, there would 100% still be people playing ranked to this day and for a while longer.
yeah this reminds me of how splatoon matchmaking works, and trust me, it is EVEN worse.
Rating update, and any other elo system, is a tool. What makes it bad or good is how you use it. A hammer can be used to nail things, or it can be used to bash skulls.
You shouldn't play games in order to get your ELO up, you should play games and see where your ELO progresses over the span of several weeks. Does it go up? Good, you've been getting better, keep at it. Does it go down? You're doing something wrong and need to figure it out.
ELO is a tool, not a goal.
No rating update is stupid my friend who got into GG around like testament time really got into using it and its just annoying to hear about like just play the game
it could also have a modifier overhaul, where you get/lose more elo by fighting people on about the same bracket as you and wins/losses vs high/low elo players would have a diminished impact on points. This would mean your ranking would only really alter when you fight people on your bracket so no more elo tanking.
examples:
- 1600 vs 1600 players, one comes out with 1620 and the other 1580
- 2200 vs 1900 players, if the higher one wins they come out with 2202 and the lower one with 1798 or 2199/1801
->1500 vs 2000+ could have no repercussions on rating at all
The first example is rewarding the player for besting people their own theorical skill level
The second is lessening the impact of random losses/easy wins
The third is a limiter put in place that is assuming this match wouldnt happen in skill based matchmaking and therefore ignores it
My idea is that if your opponent is 150 elo above or below you then the first example applies, a elo difference higher than that would mean you get less elo and if the difference is high enough it wont even count at all. Its supposed to simulate what skill based mm would do by removing the matches or lessening the impact of matches that wouldn't have happened if the game actually had skill based matchmaking.
This would mean no more funnies with elo sniping because you'd have to raise a character to that specific elo, then win multiple matches to have a visible effect so people dont have to be scare to play because of funny numbers
GekkoSquirrel, as one of my favorite Tekken-like content creators, PLEASE, stop calling it Elo. Elo is it's own MMR algorithm! Rating Update is based on the Glicko-2 algorithm!
Call it MMR, call it Rating, just DON'T CALL IT ELO!
Don't call it Glicko-2 because no one calls anything that.
More like Hating Update
tldr: no
So in response to ArcSys's attempt to curb the worst effects of an MMR system on player's brains, the community ended up creating an even more flawed and somewhat extreme bootleg version.
Strive UI is so bad imo. Love the game but the matchmaking sucks, ranked system sucks, rooms suck(I realize some people like rooms but I am not a fan), leveling sucks and it'd impossible to level up putside celestial, leaderboards suck(monthly wins in celestial is the main stat which is trash imo), and I'm sure there is other things but those are just some examples. There are plenty of examples used in popular games of those things that work well. Why are we shafted in things that seem so basic and already have been implemented well in many other games? People complain about the balance in Strive but the gameplay is pretty good and it's the surrounding system that are actually quite bad.
Okay
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The Waffle House has found it’s new host.
The waffle house has found its new host