New Piccadilly Tube Trains Tested By Siemens In Germany
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- čas přidán 16. 11. 2023
- A new Piccadilly line tube train - that will finally bring air conditioning to the deep underground line - is being put through its paces during testing at a German site.
There will be 94 new state-of-the-art trains built, and the first test train is at the Test and Validation Centre in Wegberg-Wildenrath, Germany.
As well as being smoother and more energy efficient, the 94 new trains will be fully walk-through and will have improved accessibility.
The new metro trains will also increase capacity by around 10% and are also lighter than existing designs which will mean the trains are more energy efficient, quieter and smoother.
All trains will be fitted with CCTV in the carriages.
The train will be tested on a dynamic track to demonstrate acceleration and braking along with noise and vibration trials.
A three-car formation of the Piccadilly line carriages has been put through testing in a special climate chamber to ensure the trains will be able to endure extreme weather conditions.
Tests focused on the effects of extreme ambient temperatures from -15°C to 40°C, ice and high wind speeds of up to 100km/h to check the train can still operate in extreme weather conditions.
Nice to see Geoff Marshall on the new tube train. Can’t wait for him to do his own video on the new Piccadilly Line 2024 stock.
Yes, nice to see Geoff. But also a nice clickbait.
Booked comment.
I read 'Picccadilly live stock'😁. (Or piccalilly live stock for that matter)
available now
Yawn
As an American, I wasn't aware subway cars could be built new. I thought we were stuck using the same ones from 100 years ago because there was no other choice.
so you‘re from NYC 😅❤
@@maxs351 Or Chicago!
Great cameo from Geoff!
Many people are confusing "without staff"/"automated"/"driverless". As usual. Even Jago Hazard did confuse them and he is a very intelligent enthusiast.
What would a London underground video be without Geoff Marshall
It could be one of Jago Hazzard's "Tales from the Tube".
A better one
Bro this train design has been kicking around since 2015
The confusion between driverless and automated continues. The Picc will be automated. Driverless on the Tube would be unsafe without significant modification, which realistically probably cant be done, at least not cheaper than having "drivers".
Not at all confused. Automated trains can be driverless with a "train manager" manning the tube for safety (no driver required). As with the DLR, override training for manual operation can be given.
I think the (Tory) politicians' dream is to stop ASLEF strikes. The reality on the Tube is that you will always need one human on board a train to deal with incidents, evacuation etc. So stopping industrial action is not a deliverable outcome. Whether it is worth the expense of (for example) platform edge doors to swap a driver in the cab watching the train drive itself, for a train manager standing in the train is very debatable.
@@dariengoodwin I think stopping (in fact, not having) strikes is most passenger's/the public's dream. Who actually wants ASLEF strikes? (except the self-interested and a handful of lefty hard-liners). The srikes are a ransom for more money.
The human element itself isn't the issue. "Train managers" (TMs) are cheaper and more trainable, so TOCs would be less dependent on train managers than they are on drivers. They can train new TMs and have them available to reduce the dependence on union members, and bring them in on 7-day contracts without this archaic "Sundays = overtime" issue... As they mature and join unions, they have a new batch getting trained up - a constant pipeline. They can fund this because they're cheaper and quicker to bring in than drivers (you don't really need to have the full array of driver skills because of automation)... The focus of TMs is safety (so ASLEF can't claim that safety is an issue):- basic signaling, coupling, track isolation etc and basic push button override operations - they don't need the full driver syllabus and can be trained in 6 months and be safety experts, probably more so than an average train driver.
I think the strikes are partly why automated trains are so high on the wish list of (Tory) governments and the public. In the long run, this is what's going to happen - we live in an age of technology advancement where having a wobbling head in the front of a train will be a farcical, almost purely luddite extravagance.
It might also be impossible on routes where the Pic shares track with the Dis/Met line.
@@dariengoodwinThen the RMT can go on strike
Can’t wait for Geoff’s video 😊
From the thumbnail, I thought this was Geoff's channel !
I've been scammed !!
See his channel
Me too, nice video but don’t appreciate being tricked into watching it
Me too!
It even sounded like Geoff for the first 10 seconds
me too lol
Driverless trains allow for trains to be run closer together and the ability to add trains to the service at a moments notice. This means extra capacity and less crowding. Paris upgraded line 4 to driverless operation just this year and the line is vastly improved for passengers. Shame we didn't do it for the Piccadilly, however driverless trains ideally require platform edge doors and I'm not certain the line could easily installed them.
you can do the same with trains with drivers… and it’s safer.
Would not only require platform-edge doors but other safety measures in the tunnels. Also I’m not sure what would happen in the bit where it parallels and then shares track with the district line so I’m not sure that’s a realistic concept right now. Jago Hazzard did a video on how the underground could become driverless and why it probably won’t soon and it’s quite interesting
Not quite. Automatic trains allow all that without having to go driverless. London has them on the Central & Jubilee, possibly also on the Northern, Met, Circle, H&C & District too. The DLR, Elizabeth & Victoria Lines have always been automated (it had a rather crude auto system in 1969, but it was automatic). The drivers (or captains on the DLR) are there to ensure the safety of passengers & take control if anything goes wrong. So drivers are still there but do not often drive the train.
They do not require platform edge doors and AI cameras on the platform would be able to do the job much more cheaply that driver edge doors now anyway.
@@TheRip72 Elizabeth line is only automated in the core section and to Abbey Wood. Outside of that it’s just like a normal national rail train ride. Thameslink is the same (automated in the core but normal out of it)
Only watched because I thought it was Geoff Marshall lol - in his style so well done 😂
Informative can't wait to go in the 94 trains shows how many are needed for 1 line on the tube😮
Great video I cant wait, im gonna miss the 1973 stock
Same here. I’d assume LTM is preserving a car, but it’d be great if they could preserve a whole train to maybe run a heritage service years from now, like they’ve done with the 38 Stock.
These trains are actually *already* built to be capable for fully automated/unattended operation (GoA4), though obviously would need significant investment on the line itself and convincing unions (the main bit even if it was ready tomorrow). Paris did it with Line 1 and 4 (built in 1900 and 1908, with no walkways/small tunnels, now fully automated) - props to them 👏👏, without losing any jobs
I believe the Piccadilly is (was?) slated to get a signalling upgrade in 2028 - hopefully this would support the line being automated.
The lines won’t ever be automated! Did you listen to the video?? Unions won’t allow it
They will be automated as modern signalling for metros is usually automated. But it wouldn't be driverless. @@callumcc8897
Nice to see Geoff!
“To get to see it you have to get off the train and on the plane”-not true! You can get to Wegberg in a bit over six hours by train (closer to five and a half if you take a taxi for the last couple of miles, as the rail connections mean you have to take a bit of a detour via Rheydt)
A bit longer but not that much than the total time to Heathrow, check in, flight to Düsseldorf, exit airport, and get taxi to Wegberg. Given the state of the world we need to reconsider the attitude that you “have” to fly-sure, in some cases it’s the most convenient option, but it’s almost always a choice, especially within Western Europe.
Don't forget that on the train you can take a lot more luggage...for free!
@@JohnnyMotel99but the Eurostar costs like £100
@@alphabetaomega265 if jet fuel would be taxed and airports would have to actually operate profitable (Düsseldorf Airport lost 11 Mil € in 2022, all paid by the city as owner of the airport) flights would be more expensive too
@@martinum4 Yep, airtravel is heavily subsidised.
Not to mention the atrocious abuse and delays caused by the the security staff at Heathrow. I would not go near the place again.
Can’t wait to see them in service
It's been decades since I rode the Piccadilly line train to Heathrow, but at the time, I got the distinct impression that the poor ride was due to the track, not the train.
At one time it was, (I used to travel Green Park to Northfields and later the opposite way to Wood Green), but these trains are now old and have taken some punishment over the last 50 years.
All looks very good, but it's sad that a country that pioneered the railways, the underground and the industrial revolution now imports everything as it it has lost the will to succeed.
So much for Brexit.
Even the new high speed trains for the East Coast mainline are built in Spain.
It's been like that for a long time, sadly - the original trains used on the HK MTR were built by Metro Cammell in Birmingham - but when they needed more trains in 1992 they had to be delivered as parts and assembled locally in HK because the assembly workshops had been closed. Later in 1999 GEC-Alstom (who had taken over Metro-Cammell) no-bid the contract for the KCR trains because they couldn't even supply the parts and the contract ended up going to a Japanese consortium. They also no-bid the refurbishment contract for the older trains and that ended up going to UGL rail in Australia. @@Steven_Rowe
It's noisy and really shaky. I don't know whether this is due to the trains themselves or the tracks. But there's always a feeling of claustrophobia on that and the Northern Line, especially when compared to District and other lines and especially when you've travelled on the metros in East Asia.
@@TrimeshSZThe people who run Britain think that wealth is created by pushing money around.
The old trains are 50 - the same age as me! I will miss them - especially the seats you can rest against at the end of carriages.
When you just look at the thumbnail and expect to start hearing Geoff talk but then you have to do a double take a realise it’s not his video. Great video Rags!
Look fine to me, I just wish they'd take up the option in the agreement to also replace the Bakerloo Line...
I love the transverse seats on the B'loo line stock. I wonder if they can do a variant...just to please me! 😄
They will replace the Bakerloo line too mate
I've heard that bakerloo will keep its current stock until 2040, or even 2050, the tunnels are just not big enough
If they can afford to/can get the funding for more then they will, in theory the order could go to another manufacturer but if they happy with what Siemens supplies (which is pretty much guaranteed) they'll probably write any new tender so that it effectively makes Siemens the only possible winner.
They certainly have the most reliable mainline trains in the UK.
Get rid of this govt and they might just do it.
Geoff thumbnail clickbait 😒
Unions holding back technological progress. Imagine the blacksmiths /farriers union preventing the adoption of the automobile.
I think it did happen more than once: shephards were protesting against cotton, hence it was banned or heavily restricted to be imported to the UK... (Calico Acts)
I worked there for Siemens on their own high speed trains, the ICE3. Commissioning trains for the Dutch Railway company N.S. and Deutsche Bahn. The testcentre was just open and brand new at that time. 1998 that was. It's 6 km away from the Netherlands 😉. The third rail was added many years later. All types of trams, metro's and trains can be tested there on different tracks. It used to be a RAF base until 1983. Great to see the London tube carriages driving on test track T1!
People need to realise that the Underground doesn't have to be fully driverless to be great. Nearly every line is already semi-automated. The only thing the driver controls is the doors and has the option to emergency override the acceleration/braking if a fault occurs.
Finally new information!
Great video !
I can’t wait
They look well impressive 😎!
Paris metro line 1 opened 6 years before the Piccadilly line and has had no on-board staff since 2007.
Piccadilly line is over 4 times longer though and uses single track tube tunnels which are much deeper that the Ligne 1. Whilst being longer their capacity is lower though. Also can’t ignore the difference in infrastructure project costs between the different countries as well.
Where the site is where I was based in the RAF at Wildenrath near Moenchengladbach… seeing this brings back memories 🇩🇪
FYI along with the Docklands Light Rail which features truly driverless trains, eight of the London Underground lines have varying degrees of automatic train operation to the extent that in most cases the "drivers" are only responsible for the opening and closing of the doors at station. What is interesting is that, despite the unions' claims of "safety concerns", in actual fact the higher the degree of automation of the various lines, the more punctual and safer they are. Furthermore, it makes an absolute mockery of the unions' claims when you see a train pull into a station and the "driver" is reading a book or newspaper! What the unions are really about is maintaining their hold over the British public by protecting the over-inflated salaries of train drivers, which in the case of Tube drivers is almost two and a half times the UK average.
Big up, Geoff!
Definitely be on those when they enter service
A really interesting report, thank you for sharing! I am also looking forward to Geoff's video on the new train stock :D
Yawn
The interiors look more claustrophobic, probably owing to the fact the windows are smaller. Will have to wait and see when they get put on the lines!
I dont think its possible to make them any bigger
The interiors i mean
it’s a trade off for the air con
Geoff! I live in Aachen and I saw you on our local news program called Lokalzeit on Friday evening. 🇩🇪
I am reminded of an article from several years ago that Siemens had to spend around €7,000,000 to degrade its test track in Germany when producing a new train set for the U.K. (can't remember which line, might have been the Great Western) to match the voltage and gauge variations and other sundry negative track conditions on the customer's line.
The Piccadilly line itself is over 100 years old. Thats what you get for being a trailblazing nation. It's far easier and cheaper to lay new infrastructure than upgrading existing ones, while painting a level of service.
Very disingenuous to use Geoff as the video thumbnail, intentionally trading off his face to gain yourself more views. That earned a thumbs down
Pretty
Why is Geoff Marshall on the thumbnail? I've been catfished!
Hi..im from KL Malaysia,and im a frequent user of Kajang Line Metro,..My train are in fact in the same Siemens Inspiro family as the Piccadily line rolling stock..and yes..mine is driverless.
Those walk through trains guve a weird sensation when they go round bends. The Munich ubahn has them.
2:45 The Moquette to give it its proper name.......
In my day it was called Seat Covering, always was and always will be.
Used to live on the site at Wildenrath when it was an RAF station
Apparently, they will not fully replace the 1973 stock for a while after they come into service. Noises coming out that they plan to only make 50% of them for the network and that the 1973 stock will be around for a long time yet.
Wow.
I was under the impression that the Victoria Line trains were automatic and did not require drivers since the line opened .
They run on ATO which is an automatic system but it still requires a driver in the cab to operate the system and open/ close the doors.
With making the carriages more open, doesn’t that mean there is now less surfaces to lean against?
Looking forward to seeing Geoff's video and when these trains finally hit London!
😂😂😂😂😂
Yay! Geoff Marshall is here!
When driverless trains are implemented, the staff member becomes a roving monitor, increasing passenger safety and convenience by a large margin. On the new walk-through trainsets, that will make driverless operation much easier to implement.
I feel so bad for the old pic line it was my second favourite line in the underground but it’s gonna be gone soon😢
I can probably see Transport for London inviting dovetail games on a test run with the train provided they want to have it featured on Bakerloo line which uses 1972 Stock Mark IIs right now 1985 both Mark II & 1938 stock card compartment is on the rear section of the driver's cab.
Would this be present for the Uxbridge branch as Heathrow would be priortised?
I did a semester at the end of the Piccadilly Line in 1989 - they seemed old back then!!
Every trip to and from the school started and ended on those trains...
Yes. Driverless trains. That is what we need. Not just underground but everywhere.
The famous Clapham Junction crash which occurred because the driver could not see the signals in the sunlight would not have occurred, if those signals were beamed straight into the cab.
This can be solved by ETCS and ATO. With ETCS signals and speed limits get transfered directly to the cab.
Who cares. Accidents with driverless happen too. Picking on one human error doesn't prove anything.
If you're going to take a single incident as an argument, then I will too. Did you see that clip of a driver who was about to crash into a truck and ran through the train warning everyone to get down so they weren't injured? Yea, I don't think a CPU is able to do that.
@@transportenthusiast11
In general, computers are far more reliable than human beings.
Computers get tested over and over and over again. Any faults are found and fixed. I don't think you can do that with a human.
Driverless or automated?
Was your video recorded at Wildenrath? It was difficult to say from the short duration recorded..
If so, ir was probably the former RAF Wildenrath. I served there during the 80s.
They're deffinatly nicer then the other newer stock. i love the design, altough windows look a bit strange from the inside. But overall very aerodynamic cool design-lines. Only 2 doors per carriage, but are the carriages bit shorter, I see trains have 9 cars? The current pic.-line trains only have 6 carriages, right?
Is it possible to send this trains to UK over rails?
They use standard gauge and can be hauled by normal locomotive. Maybe just pick-up shoe would be an issue.
Next time maybe do some real research on why totally unattended train operation on legacy London underground lines is super hard (ie super expensive) rather than resorting to the lazy trope of blaming the unions.
London Reconnections published a great article on it a few years back.
Hope you're proud of yourselves importing your tube stock. Is Britain determined to dissolve itself?
The seat fabric is clever, but it already looks dated.
i like the british’s attitude towards driverless trains🎉
OMG Amazing woohoo ❤
Why are the windows so small?
A system, like the underground trains are, is qualified to run automatically. It's the same, as with elevators.
hmmm this should be going to the Central line 🥵
To nit-pick, we can take a train to Wegberg, Wildenrath, Germany from London, just takes a little longer.
0:45 Stuff the other upgrades, will they all come with a full length mirror like this demonstrator.
At a glance the destination indicator is too small and the seats look suspiciously free of any cushioning.
Would have liked some foray into why they are one to two years behind schedule.
why are the windows so small?
What do you mean by „close to Düsseldorf“ that test centre is former RAF station Wilderrath, served the UK and NATO very well over 40 years.
2:43 GEOFF
3:07 "New announcements"
He returned?
I will tell my Mum on the talent show online about the new Piccadilly line on the underground at London On 1st December 2023 after project 49 and after dinner.
What about bakerloo!!!
Real question is when the fook are they going to sort out the Bakerloo line? I apprciate the Picc line trains are old, but look space age compared to the Bakerloo. Still no word on when the Bakerloo will see some love
Driverless trains should hopefully allow for night tube as well 24/7 across London, but alas we ain't getting either.
The tunnels need to be maintained every night
As usual U.K. was first, in this case with underground trains, but we now suffer from an old network which misses out on new technology.
So it took the Germans to introduce air-conditioning. I guess that’s better than driverless trains in someways.
Air conditioning can just create more heat inside the stations and takes up a lot of space in the train. Just wear more appropriate clothes.
@@transportenthusiast11 nope there train engine is producing less heat, which can compensate for the air conditioning
@@transportenthusiast11it has AC. And it is the reason for the small windows
will the door buttons be rendered useful for the passengers or useless
Hmm, I only clicked on this video because I saw Geoff on the thumbnail and assumed it was his. But I guess that's why you did it.
That door opening sound is horrific. Hope they change that before delivery.
To people talking about how they should be driverless have a look to see if you think the cost justify the need to do the work.
Three Paris Metro lines are currently driverless, Ligne 14 (8.6 miles) was purpose built and Ligne 1 and 4 (18.9 miles 53 stations combined) were converted, all three are practically entirely in shallow two track tunnels.
Conversion of Ligne 1 cost €600m in 2012 (€800m today) and ligne 4 cost €470m so the cost is roughly €60m per mile (as it should be cheaper with experience).
The Piccadilly line is much longer (43.7 miles) and a mix of single track deep tube tunnel and open sections which is a major factor (in Germany, networks being converted to driverless aren’t touching lines with open sections). In addition, assistance from another train alongside would be impossible in the tunnel sections. Ignoring these massive differences and inflation it would cost about €2622m which is about £2275m to convert minimum. Drivers on the Piccadilly roughly cost £30m a year so ignoring the additional technical staff to maintain the new system it would take 76 years to recoup the investment.
This ignores the important issue that the UK currently faces with hugely overpriced infrastructure projects. Currently they cost 5-10 more than equivalent projects on the continent in which case it would take 380-760 years to recoup investment 😂.
That also ignores the benefits of the increased service that full automation allows
@@Gfynbcyiokbg8710 it doesn’t ignore that benefit, by full automation do you mean driverless or automatic train operation? It’s the signalling that has an effect on train frequency, not whether there’s a person on board or not.
@@v52gc Regardless of if there's a person there or not you'd still be spending hundreds of millions on signalling upgrades but that would come with a 60% increase in frequency something that you don't account for at all.
Also the UK isn't that much more expensive than e.g. Paris. The Grand Paris Express is now estimated to cost about £210m per km compared to about £370m per km of tunnel for Crossrail (I think those are 2022 figures for both), but that's not entirely fair to Crossrail as it uses larger tunnels, whilst the GPE includes significant above ground portions.
@@Gfynbcyiokbg8710 My original comment wasn’t about signalling upgrades. It’s about the cost benefit of converting to driverless.
With regards to signalling it’s about reducing existing overlaps to increase frequency, whether you do this using a moving or smaller fixed block system; signalling systems eventually perish and need replacing, usually at which point they get upgraded.
@@Gfynbcyiokbg8710 The figures you’ve quoted refer to new build lines, I’m specifically referring to conversion.
i don't know all the stations of Piccadilly line but I guess its one of the older, almost ancient lines of London Underground. so perhaps the gates and barriers would take up too much space of the already small and narrow platforms. driverless trains demand for more than just on-train technologies, the general infrastructure needs to be adapted too
Nice Video but I must admit I hate the hostile design for the seats. Its a shame
What about the Bakerloo line 1972 Stock??
It wouldnt be a tube train vid without geoff marshall
So strange to have lived in both locations (and nearby Rheindahlen) as a child of the British Army.
I have news for you. You don't actually have to get on a plane to go to Germany. Trains go there too.
And ships and even your run of the mill motor car, van, bus, coach or lorry.
it's about time as Piccadilly Line stock are almost ancient now, and can only be refurbished and updated to a point, current stock I believe was made by Metro Cammell in 1973, making this year their 50th anniversary
I’ve been using the Piccadilly line all my life. It’ll be sad to see the ‘73 stock go, but I’m looking forward to see what the improvements for the new stock are for myself.
Drivers on the Underground provide a level of safety and emergency response that you cannot get without major reconstructions across the network. It's really not worth cutting a couple hundred jobs to eek out one or two trains per hour, when the safety of thousands of people is in the balance.
Automation would increase the security. You could use the staff as train managers who do not care about the driving, but all other topics
There are a lot of systems who did that successfully
@@fzsmaurice2742 That is precisely why the Tube does ATO, with the driver still at the controls to react in case. ATO is very useful.
@@fzsmaurice2742 It is only natural for a bot youtube account to promote AI.
Air conditioning and regenerative braking will be nice!
It's not technically Air Conditioning, but air cooling. I remember reading there's an important distinction between them and that New Tube for London is using the latter.
I imagine expats in Germany get confused when driving past.
Not sure about the design. Very nice from the front , but the new train is not as streamlined as the existing model which is very nicely designed around the windows and doors. All appears to be little in the way of luggage space for an underground train that goes to Heathrow.
the new design is more streamlined, it has fewer irregular surfaces, not that it really matters. both are extremely unstreamlined.
Bit annoying that the Picc gets them first when the Bakerloo trains are older.
Why’d you have to fly from London to Düsseldorf?
my dyslexic ass thought there were gonna be sidemen in this vid but after watching the video all the way I realised...
Geoff where your video?
I wonder if Germany has any UK built trains? Honestly, the Country that gave the world railways is now more or less incapable of producing anything.....but proud to put together kits from Japan!
I don’t get this obsession with driverless trains.
Makes pretty much zero difference to passengers, isn’t immune from strikes.
And since the tube has narrow tunnels with no emergency walkway and curved platforms with massive gaps, it isn’t safe to run driverless trains in those conditions.
The idea is that driverless trains can run faster and closer to each other (more traffic density) because each train constantly communicates its exact speed and position to other trains so they can all adjust speeds and distances collectively.
This means that instead of a train running I'm fixed absolute blocks on the "one train out one train in" principle, the whole railway becomes a series of dynamic, rolling blocks defined by the trains themselves.
@@thomasm1964 Wrong. For that to happen, trains needs to be "automated" rather than "driverless" like the Victoria Line.
The obsession with truly driverless trains is government trying to limit industrial action.
@@thomasm1964 Trains don’t have to be driverless to operate in this way. The Victoria, central, jubilee and northern lines already work like this and they are not driverless
@@milesthemelonator do people realise that a driverless train network still needs staff in order to operate? Control room staff go on strike = no trains. Also on the tube if the station staff are on strike the station cannot legally be open = no trains.
If the tube ever goes driverless it will follow the DLR model with a member of staff on board so the will actually be no mitigation to the risk of strikes.
Much easier to just cooperate with your staff.
@@thomasm1964 you’ve described an automated system, not driverless. In addition, there are both moving and fixed block automated systems. The Underground has both if you’re interested.