Garrulous64 Hi 👋 I’m not sure if you’ll see this but what if Zavok and the Deadly six were villains for Dr Eggman to face and overcome? Like how Black Doom & Mephiles were villains to Shadow? I’m curious to hear your opinion on this is? (Thank you for reading.)🙏
MetalKingBoo I’m pretty sure he still is,after all, Infinite is just another character that looks like a deviant art oc that wants to take the spotlight and became powerful by harnessing the power of a rare jewel and wearing a mask. XD
Chaos: Misunderstood chao who wanted vengeance and in the end resorted back to being good. Dark Gaia: Massive demon who literally destroyed the world. Was defeated through sacrifice. Metal Sonic: Sonic's non verbal comic like rival who is almost as Iconic as sonic himself. Zavok: Thicc bad boy with Thicc muscles who looks at the camera for 2 minutes and then disappears.
i dont even think chaos is a good villain,but at least there would be a reason to bring him back.the chaosemeralds are still a vital part of soniclore,right? they kinda disappeared randomly
I don't personally mind Zavok being in TSR, it's really not a big deal to me at all, but I definitely don't think anyone has a right to claim hypocrisy on liking Bowser but not Zavok. The only thing they have in common are Sonic Team's poor attempts to have a Bowser-esque villain for their heavily Mario-esque game at the time, the two are completely different in every other way so the comparison is completely negligible in my opinion
I would have to agree with you there. The king of Koopa himself I always thought was a great character due to games like inside story and I was able to at least take him a little bit seriously, but Zavok? I don't like at all, and he is in no way comparable to Bowser. (Mind you I hate lots about Lost World).
That doesn't even make sense. Why should you like an inferior version of something? If anything that's more reason to dislike it because it's clearly failing to do anything that makes what it's based on special.
Despite the sheer amount of wasted potential Infinite had, he still at least has a cool design, slick voice and a kickass theme song. Zavok has nothing going for him besides being a blatant Bowser rip-off, and also being *the* most generic, forgettable villain in a video-game I’ve ever played.
Bowser has the ability to be both charming and intimidating, sometimes both at the same time. Zavok has neither of those things. He is just......Zavok.
@@dapperfan44 Just because a character is based off of something doesn't make them inherently well-written or impactful or *good*, nor does that automatically make the symbolism something that's well-implemented into or well-represented in his character. No one was saying the Deadly Six wasn't based off of a concept, we all know that, it's obvious and goes without saying. We're saying that Bowser is a good character, and that Zavok is not.
@@dapperfan44 dapperfan44 If I made up a character that was based on Satan, that doesn't just automatically make it good. There needs to be competent writing, and character traits, motivations that make sense, etc. In other words, he has to be an ACTUAL CHARACTER instead of a stand-in for something else. Otherwise you could just call him "Wrath" or "Satan" because he's not really a character, just a rip-off of something else. Also, "shows what you know"? Really?
@@Garrulous64 Luna Alex even then, it's a _Sonic game_ at the end of the day. I'm not looking for Uncharted-level writing, I'm just here to have fun. Fighting Zavok was fun, therefore I was pleased.
Okay... This is really starting to frustrate me. You keep saying ZAH-VUK. That's not how it's pronounced. The correct pronunciation is... Discount Bowser.
Infinite is RIGHT THERE. He doesn't have much more personality than Zavok but atleast they TRIED to give a him a backstory with the comic and episode shadow. He's also Eggman's only partner that hasn't betrayed him AND accomplished Eggman's goals of world domination. Zavok is diet Bowser.
Also infinite has a much better character design than Zavok. Zavok is such a lazy character. Edit. although gamma is canonically dead, why not have some sort of eggman robot as the third member, it would make sense since nobody else likes him.
Infinite has a better personality too. He tries to be an edgelord and act scary but he is just weak and with a lot of fear inside him. Also Cubot and Orbot would have been better.
i'm the catman, don't forget though, Infinite's backstory was retconned by the end of the game when they revealed he was kept in a lab and was Metal Sonic lite all along.
Personally I think Infinite would have been a better choice. Think about it: Sega REALLY hyped that guy up and fans were *excited* to see him in Forces. Forces didn't really do many good things with him, but he's got a lot of potential. He's a stand-alone character, too. But the main thing is this: he was loyal to Eggman until the end. It's like Sega wants Infinite to be his new assistant. Zavok was not loyal to Eggman and betrayed him the second he had the chance. It would honestly make more sense to have Infinite rather than Zavok.
Well-said, sir. Sega needs to start asking Sonic Team to give thought to store, lore, and character relationships; this would have been a vast improvement in that regard.
In Lost World, Zavok and the rest of the Deadly Six stopped being loyal to Eggman because Sonic kicked the horn out of Eggman's hands that controlled the Deadly Six.
Sonic Team wasting a character's potential? Now where have I seen that before? *Stares at Silver* In all seriousness I agree, Infinite should've been in Sonic TR, not Zavok
Ah yes, it's make more sense putting a character so powerful who defeated Sonic *driving a car* , i mean Team Sonic Racing is after Sonic Forces and putting a character that mysterious who we don't know he died or just dissapeared *driving a car* it's just to ridiculous, he just dissapeared leaving us the mystery if he's dead or no, but hell yeah let's solve that mystery putting him back *driving a car*
Charii assumed he might owe Eggman something. What if the doctor sent one of his robots to attack Zavok and then "saved" the zeti,who in turn decided to thank Robotnik and joined his team?
@@user-gn5jt5gf2x Sonic saved Zavok from Eggman's control and then Zavok Literally treathened to turn sonic's best friend into a robot,so yeah,Zavok isn't really a guy you can trust.
Right at 6:09 when you asked what Zavok was, a trailer for a Marvel game came up and Thanos was immediately standing there. It took me a second to realize it was an ad, I thought you were comparing Zavok to Thanos for some reason.
I really think the only reason they chose Zavok in TSR is because Chaos doesn't speak. But if that's the case, why not just go with Infinite? Infinite at least has fans, even if it's only for his design.
Exactly. They hyped Infinite up so hard for Forces and then they just threw him away because the reception was bad. They clearly didn't have any faith in him as a character.
Basically Zavoc, and the deadly six are just poor versions of Bowser and the Koopalings. Sure the Koopalings have one main trait, but even they’re still more fleshed out characters.
Not really. At least the Six can talk. I mean the Koopalings have a lot more games though. Sega needs to flesh out the Six if they want to keep using them. And they need to be together.
@@Garrulous64 And you know there are actually a lot of characters in Sonic that have more personality that don't talk now that I think about it. Like Chaos and (usually)Metal Sonic.
Yeah wait a minute, Metal Sonic doesn't talk and he can race. The Chao don't talk and they can race. Why couldn't they just use Chaos for Eggman's team? People woulda ate that up.
I still don’t get why they gave Zavok a boss fight, instead of Chaos. Yes, of course! Because Zavok is *SUCH* *a popular character* that he needs a boss fight, and not Chaos.
Nintendo: "We make new characters and carry them on the best we can to be sure they are fitting and are favorable. Sega: "We make new characters yet don't really give a damn what happens to them or whatever else."
Nintendo literally puts Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach as playable characters in spinoffs despite those being not even real characters. Also Dr.Mario in Smash. No excuse.
@@iregretsomeofmypreviouscom3284 Literally the only thing Sega (or sonic team) do when it comes to new characters is that they don't even try thinking about how it should work in the game. This is them: "Hey look we made a new sonic character lets just throw him in there and see if he or she does a great job or not." Take a good look at this: no thinking, no going into terms and no plan. Every time a new character is introduced in a sonic game it can always turn out to be either boring, uninteresting, dumb or annoying.
Infinite: >Has some popularity >Cool design >Somewhat intimidating >Funny backstory >He is not weak >Doesn't get in TSR Zavok: >Uh, he is a villain >Uh >He is a villain >Gets in TSR
I really think you nailed it here, Dylan! Bowser works because we got a twenty hour game of fleshing out to make up for the twenty years of missing character development, and that worked because the writers made Bowser one of the most lovable characters in video game history. Bowser is able to stand on his own in character and personality, without his minions, because he's got a depth to him and a lot of moments that define and make him memorable. Heck, Zavok being a recent character isn't even an issue! Rosalina was introduced in 2007, and because she was loved by fans she got to be in tons of future titles. Same thing is happening with Pauline, an-old-turned-new fan favorite, with her being included in Mario Tennis Aces and a Spirit in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate! Sure, they have supporting elements, like Luma for Rosalina and Donkey Kong for Pauline, but they're still their own character. Zavok is written poorly, requires cohorts to matter, and, beyond being able to block attacks from Super Sonic in one of his fights. doesn't have anything outstanding or memorable to him. It's far too late to rework him into a reoccurring character, and we have enough of those as it is. Team Eggman's heavy character could've been E-100 (Zero), you know... that robot that chases Amy in Sonic Adventure that no one seems to know the name of... and it would've been better. I would've liked to see an updated model of that thing!
I wouldn't really say adding Zavok is like adding Ludwig. It's more like adding Axem Ranger Red. Didn't do much except lead a team of cliches and lost. It's hard for me to be mad or annoyed with the choice of Zavok because at the end of the day, it's a racing game and it will only be looked at for a short period of time. In other words, I can't bring myself to care.
Going by TWIP, the game's gonna be really good anyways. So. . .who cares. Plus. . .DLC and/or secret unlockable characters are not out of the question.
It doesn't even make sense with the Teams thing either, Eggman could have been Power, Metal could have been Speed and Orbot & Cubot (or someone else) could have been Technical, but why did we get this instead? It doesn't make sense to me.
@Daniel von Strangle For the Orbot & Cubot thing, nobody asked for 4 chaos yet we got them so why not them, not only that but it would make a lot of sense why they are with Eggman, and i say no for Tails Doll for 2 things, First of all how is a doll going to drive a car?, And second of all i don't think Sega will use the character thanks to that Creepypasta, i know its not real but other people/kids may not know it so i don't think its going to give Sega a good reputation for the game.
The only trait that Eggman have of a power character is... that he's fat, like Big. That's really the only thing I can tell. Maybe in his gundam/robot from SA2 he feels "powerful", but I don't see them put Eggman in a gundam in a car x)
At least Infinite had a tiny bit of depth and things that made him memorable (in both good and bad ways), but he was at least a half-decent villain. He would have been a better choice for the power type (Eggman could force him into the role if he's still around). Although, I believe that an artificial Chaos clone or just some Eggman robot (heck, even an EggPawn) would have been better choices than Zavok.
Orbot and Cubot in one car King hard boiled heavie in a car Hell...SCRATCH AND GROUNDER WOULD HAVE BEEN WAY BETTER! No one likes zavoc...he is way too boring
One of my favorite things about Forces were the trailers where they showed all the returning villains and all of them look super iconic and then we pan to Zavok, who looks super out of place just purely over how generic he looks.
Zavok's inclusion doesn't make sense in Team Eggman, since he hates Eggman. It would've made more sense if he had his own team with Zazz and Zeena. They also could've used Infinite to be in Eggman's team, too, so why is Zavok in Eggman's team?!
The Koopalings are indeed being characterized more. In Paper Jam, Color Splash, and the new modes, especially Bowser Jr's Journey, I like them more than just their designs. They are developing characters now, and I actually want them to return in more main games, as long as they aren't the main bosses. One of my favorite ideas for a new 2D Mario game that I've came up with, is splitting up the Volcano World and Bowser's Castle. Instead of having Bowser's Castle be a single level, you would go inside of it, and there would be 7-9 more levels. Each One would go through a different part of the castle, and you'd end up inside someone's room. That someone being a Koopaling, and you'd fight them. That way they can be in the game, and have their time to shine, but instead of being the main bosses of each world, they would be the boss of their home, and the main bosses can ACTUALLY be interesting characters. I'm starting to ramble about the problems with 2D Mario now, so I think I'll end this here.
I agree 100%. Especially about the Bowser part. I first played Bowser’s Inside Stort on the DS, and he has way more personality than Zavok could ever dream of. Great video!
I don't know why they put Zavok in, but not Cream or the other Chaotix Atleast I REMEMBERED Cream and The Chaotix, But I always keep forgetting about Zavok, and the Deadly six in general...
They needed a character for Team Eggman. And before you say it, adding Infinite in a racing game inmediately after he apeared would be a wasted oportunity. If he will return he should do it in a meaningful way.
I honestly wish there was one more member so that could be based on the Seven Deadly Sins. Zavok would easily be Wrath, Zeena would be Lust, Zom would be Gluttony, Zik would be Pride, Zor would be Sloth, and Zazz... uh, maybe Envy? So the last one would be based on Greed. I mean if two particular anime can flesh out seven characters, why not Sega?
As someone who actually really likes Zavok, i can say his inclusion in Team Sonic Racing makes no sense at all. He hates Eggman's guts, there's no way they're gonna come up with a good reason why he's working with him, especially after Forces dropped that ball. He's just introduced like it's normal for him to be working with Eggman and that's...confusing, to say the least. TBH I think Infinite of all characters would work in that slot. He dissappeared in a similarly anticlimatctic manner, sure, but he actually willingly worked with Eggman and never betrayed him, only butting heads with him in the past. If not that option, why not have Orbot & Cubot in one car? That'd be fun.
I feel that even disregarding the Mario RPG's Bowser is still a more likable character. He's always doing something unexpected. His fight in New Super Mario Bros isn't a platforming stage. He has a realistic looking dragon in odyssey. He has a cool car in 3d world. Zavok never does anything cool, interesting, unique, or surprising. He's just dull.
This video is so right in every way. Zavok is so underwhelming compared to Bowser when you play through Bowsers Inside Story because the interactions in that game with chippy/star low, the bros, peach, and ESPECIALLY fawful and midbus are beautifully written. You can tell the story writers behind that game had a blast embracing the characters in that game and actually put effort into the plot.
The simplistic “no direction” style that Mario has doesn’t work well with Sonic. You can really see that in these games in the past decade. That’s why he’s such I a shit villain. Especially when you look back towards people like Chaos, Shadow, Mephiles, etc. Those characters were also back when these games had more fleshed out stories, characters, and lore.
Who actually likes Zavok? I understand why he was put in forces, they needed a fourth bad guy to round out that line up, but why are they putting him in TSR? Who likes this guy. Chaos or Infinite, heck or even someone more obscure like Mephilis or Imparator Ix from chronicles would have been neat. (I understand why they wouldn't do mephitis though, he does have a neat design.) Seriously, how does this guy stick around?
Zerodot 0 I mean... Mephiles was already thrown into a canon spin-off game... granted it was a mobile one but they still did. They already have some DLC lined up though, I wouldn't be shocked if one of the teams is a Team Deity consisting of: Power: Chaos Technique: Tikal Speed: Mephiles Jus to throw in a third member even if Mephiles doesn't have a connection to them despite all having connections to or being a higher authority. Because I don't think we can fit Dark Gaia into a car or anything.
Zavok is technically the best Deadly Six member though. Like, they're all trash but he's probably the least trash besides Zazz, but that's not saying much. Trash is still trash.
While I do understand your opinion entirely and agree with almost everything you said, there is one thing I want to say.... Mario Kart 8 originally had the Koopalings( without Bowser Jr.) as playable characters. The game also added Pink Gold Peach and Metal Mario(Two characters based off of other characters) into the game. Zavock is a "character" that doesn't need to be in this game( And probably is a leftover from Forces ), I will give you that( Especially since we should of had the entirety of Team Chaotix and Cream in Sliver and Blaze's team). But this isn't as big an issue as Nintendo had with their own characters( ie. Toadette, Pink Gold Peach, Daisy isn't considered a major character despite debuting from a mainline game, Waluigi and Professor.Gaud not being considered for a racing spinoff, and the presence of Dry Bowser( even though he is a *Dead* version of Bowser). Many Characters are either forgotten or not even within the thoughts of the developers, and Sonic is a series with this big issue. But the Mario series is no saint with this issue( especially when Nintendo decides to create characters out of Princess Peach. P.S: I meant no harm when writing this.
I like him decently. Who would you put as the power though? Chaos is a deeper character and he's not really a villain. Maybe they should have made an original villian. LOL it does imply the zeti get straight up killed. Honestly the 3DS version shows them fly away at least. Maybe we should give Zavok a chance. Half the Sonic cast would be bland characters if we only count Colors onward. And I agree, the Deadly Six need to be together.
@@Garrulous64 Infinite was such a disappointment to me honestly. Biggest letdown of a character ever. He was advertised up to be this godlike entity that surpasses Sonic in every way and would push him to his limits, but in the actual game that never happens. I would like them to give Infinite a better backstory and another chance, but I doubt they will.
He really was, but I feel that his design was better, he stands on his own as a character (Zavok doesn't) and they put a lot of time into marketing Forces, so it shocks me they didn't just go with him.
@@Garrulous64 They need to give his worldview a reason to be what it is and make him powerful without the crutch of the Phantom Ruby. The reason he comes off as so silly is lack of justification for his edginess imo. And Sonic's reactions to him are also a problem. Remember in the trailer for Forces when Sonic was all pissed off and serious? Yeah, not in the game. :/
@@GordieKat Well it's the writers who made his potential underdeveloped and half-baked he could've been a dominating villain it would've been better off if he didn't have a backstory sometimes it makes the villain more threatening and devious if we're actually curious about a villain that just pretty much came out of nowhere.
honestly, i'd rather see infinite come back than zavok. as for him being the power slot... shouldn't that go to eggman? he was power type in the riders games, so i see little to no reason he shouldn't keep that.
Because 1) that game operated on Heroes types, and thus, had no other workable types, 2) he's Skill in the Olympics, and 3) he's an evil genius, making him Power when a type for smart people exists in the same game is inherently wasteful.
I really feel like tails doll or infinite would have been a way better choice, like zavok is one of those villans thats like "oh i am scary so you should be shaking in your boots!" kind of villan. hell, i only liked zavok when he went all bowser in lost worlds final boss. so im totally on point with ur opinion.
They just keep pushing this white desk of a character for no reason and it kinda looks like one guy on the st creative staff just keeps pushing his cool original character design to be featured in more and more sonic games. I think Zavok was also in one of the olympic games
Not to defend Zavok or anything, but He's having hardly any games to grow his personality compared to Bowser. And if Super Mario PRG never happened, we won't get him as he is in Super Mario Sunshine and beyond. King Koopa would still be NES villain cut-out... And don't forget old North American manual booklets, Nintendo Power magazines and shows what made up Bowser's lore as we know. Sega just doesn't care of adding the printed trivia to their characters nowadays. Even IDW don't seem to be fond of expanding the Deadly Six either.
I didn't even realize the similarity between Zavoc and Bowser until you mentioned it! Why was Lost World trying so hard to be Mario??? I just don't understand! Why Sega!? You made Sonic to rival Mario not copy him! 🤦🏻♂️
It really confuses me as to why they didn't make Eggman the power-type instead. Heck, if they wanted someone that still would be more interesting they could've added an obscure Eggman robot from the other games(like Heav- oh wait Classic characters don't exist in Modern Sonic, forgot about that).
Are you a fan of wasted opportunities? Because they didn't waste the opportunity to make the guy with superhuman intelligence be the type literally meant for people like him.
You have hit the nail right on the head, my good man. None of the Deadly Six are characters; they're character-shaped objects. Personally, I'd love for the "Deadly Six" to be forgotten altogether. Unlike Ray, Mighty, Bean, and so on, those six actually *deserve* to be forgotten and never used again. ___ I really hope Sega's decision-makers see this video, and videos like it.
Honestly I never really cared about Zavok either way. While I liked lost world more then others but not to a love standpoint (I need to replay it) I was caught in a weird place not knowing why Zazz or Zavok showed up so much (they were shortly in rio Olympics) but even though the designs are generic why everyone was so upset about them. That being said this video clarified that so much for me and makes complete sense. I always remembered chaos due to childhood shadows awesome and so is metal sonic. Infinite had so much potential and just flopped sadly. These characters worked because in a lot of cases they either developed (like shadow) or took over as the final villain. Zeena also looked promising like she’d be a strong memorable female villain but then she was so girly which is strange for a villain who looks like this. Another issue is that lost world didn’t have enough characters to interact with. Chaos interacted with so many characters, so did shadow and rouge. Zavok only really interacted with sonic, tails and Eggman. If they had more characters that he interacted with giving him more motive personality and a great boss fight he would’ve been better for it. Sorry that I went on a bit of a tangent but I enjoyed the video! 😄
Im not sure why but i kind of like zavok. The idea of a sonic universes bowser is intresting to me. I dont know whats wrong with me. I just think hes kinda cool.
zavoc imo doesnt even design wise belong in a sonic game, he came from lost world where everything was more un-sonic-y in aesthetic than ever. He just looks so simple and unappealing. He doesnt seemt o have texture or interesting limbs. Compare him with eggman and one'll notice how much more detail eggman has in each part of his body. I would've by far preferred cubot and orbot for technique so eggman could go power.
"If you take his five subordinates away, then what is he!?" I was typing my other comment at this point. After you said that, an ad kicked in that had a moment of silence, and then a man saying: "I can deduct this, right?" I had thought that was an actual part of the video; it's such a funny coincidence for me that I can't help but want to share.
After doing some research I found out that Zavok and the rest of the Deadly Six are based on Japanese Oni (Demons), they are described as being hulking figures with one or more horns growing out of their heads and being several different colors like red and blue. Oni were often depicted as being the stock villains of folklore, literature and theater so perhaps that is why the Deadly Six don't have much personality, they were designed to be similar in origin to the Oni. If you look up drawings and statues of Oni they look a lot like Zavok red color and all plus maybe Sega of Japan wanted to create something in the Sonic universe that represents Japanese mythology.
@@bubbykins4864 I believe your thinking of the Kitsune foxes. I meant something Japanese that's truly on the side of evil, like Mario's Kappas or koopas as Nintendo calls them.
Well. I respect your opinion. I personally am more in between but Zavok is just not intresting enough. If he had more things like a backstory (Unlike Infinite who's backstory is literally Mercenary, then Shadow called him weak, then he kills everybody.), he would be better. And me personally think that Chaos should be there instead of Zavok. At least we get some... Variety I guess?
I like Zavok and the other Deadly Six -conceptually, they're very one note and poorly written- but I am 100% ready to hear you roast him for ten minutes
That's the common thing about Sega nowadays. Creates a memorable character that is loved and supported by either a large or small but strong group of fans, almost completely forgotten or receives the role as a NPC or a cameo. Forgettable character, a minuscule or not even a any countable fans and is given roles that barely make any sense or just shot out of the blue. It's how I felt when I found out for TSR that Silver, Blaze, and E-123 Omega were going to be in this game. I was overjoyed to be able to play as them again even if it was for a racing game. Zavok....wait, what?!
If they needed a power type, why not throw in someone more recent? Sure the heavies are from a classic style game, but they could transition to 3D well. And the deadly six, I guarantee, were made the way they were because of the Nintendo exclusivity deal. They’re basically like Koopalings in a way.
@Viva La Waifu The developers said “Only Modern Characters” To take out the possibility of “Classic Sonic Nostalgia” again. Zavok it’s a cool choice and very logical so don’t complain for one character
Zavok, the rest of the Deadly Six, And Infinite are main reasons I want new writers for the games. They get hyped up so much but they end up being generic and forgettable because the writers suck dick at making new characters interesting. If they were in control of someone like Shadow in his first appearance, I have a feeling he wouldn’t be as loved as he is today.
OK, look. I understand Cream and Cheese aren't the most important and interesting characters in the series, but why do you choose random Chao and ZAVOK, over her? Cream at least is more interesting than either of them, and has been in the series longer than Zavok. SEGA, what are you doing?
@@draco4450 Being old enough doesn't really work when there is a certain someone with two tails that easily can drive. I understand he's kind of the exception, but it's still a faulty argument nonetheless. And Cream has been in recent titles, like Sonic Generations, as well as in the mobile Sonic Forces game. If she's faded into obscurity, why do they still use a character like Blaze, who also hasn't been seen since Sonic Forces, or Big, who wasn't even been in a main Sonic title since who knows how long.
My biggest confusion with this is that they could have added characters from more popular games. they could have replaced Zavok with the Heavy King, replaced Metal Sonic with Infinite, and given Metal Sonic his own team with the other two copycat robots (Tails Doll and Metal Knuckles) who we haven't seen outside of comics since 1997 in Sonic R. And if they wanted to go the extra mile, they could make them Team Neo, and give Tails Doll and Metal Knuckles Neo Designs like Metal's in Heroes. There are SO many teams they could have added to make this the best racing game in the series. like, why are the Chao with Amy and Big instead of Cream and Cheese? you know, ACTUAL CHARACTERS? and why is Vector of all characters with Blaze and Silver instead of those detective guys that you apparently want on your side? they could have added Fang/Nack, Bark and Bean! Mighty, Ray and Honey the Cat! Maybe they could have put Cream with Blaze and Silver, and had E-102 Gamma with Amy and Big! So much about this game is a missed oppurtinity, I could go for a while about how much they could have added.
You know, I won't mind Zavok appearing a lot in Sonic stuff if they give him some character development and interactions with others like he did in IDW Comics, so that way he won't be just some generic big scary thug for hire when he reappears. Forces & TSR could've have him banter with other characters but he was mostly an afterthought and also like Shadow & Metal Sonic he's just there as a boss fight and going against Sonic.
Bowser Jr.’s story in the remake of bowsers inside story builds a ton of character between the koopalings. If you have the remake, I suggest you play Bowser Jr.’s part aswell.
"Bowser has had more time to grow his character in other things, and Zavok hasn't" Then give him a chance to do so. Look I'm sorry, but praising Bowser for having a personality developed in spinoffs while complaining about Zavok in a spinoff is incredibly hypocritical. Like any character he needs time to grow and develop. Like Bowser, or hell like other Sonic characters. Half the cast was bland in their debut but overtime were developed further and became likable characters. While I agree that Zavok wasn't memorable from the start, you gotta give it a chance. He's been in 3 games including TSR, and one of them isn't canon, while the other was a fake Zavok. That leaves his debut game which suffered from very bad writing. But I'm sure that given proper care, Zavok could become not only a good character, but someone just as memorable as the rest of the cast, maybe one day living up to someone like Bowser. But for that to happen we need to allow him to be included so he can be further developed. Besides... it's just a racing game, who really cares?
It's not my job to let him grow his character, Sega has to do that. Any game that these characters appear in are fair game in terms of turning them into something more than what they appear to be, and I definitely don't see it your way. Sonic Team has had 6 years to do something interesting with Zavok and they just haven't, so that's on them.
@Garrulous64 Yeah but it’s a car racing game that he’s base it’s on Speed type- Technically Type- And Powert Type Who really it’s “Power” on the Sonic lore that can be recognizable? Exactly, villains like Infinite or Chaos or Mephiles are Techincal or speed types we don’t have too much Brute Force. Even that, Zavok it’s not entirely brute force, he even attack with an strategy so even if Sega and Sonic team it’s trying to deal with his franchise, Maybe they can make better his development to be a better character.
Infinite could easily be a power type. He tried to kill everyone by dropping the sun on them. Not saying Infinite is a good character either, but he's at least better than Sonic Bowser
@Garrulous64 Not really, He’s abilities are more for technical or Speed type because of the phantom Ruby... And we have enough edge With Shadow, Omega, Metal Sonic’s Car and Zavok. Remember not Sonic Bowser or Incineroar it’s Z A V O K You can do it
"The Deadly Six worked in Lost World because together they basically made up one functioning antagonistic force. If you meshed them all together, their personalities would probably fill up one somewhat memorable villain..." Now I'm thinking that Lost World's story would have been significantly improved by explaining that each of the Six was (or contained) a fragment of an original super-being's essence and were seeking to reunite back into its original form, or something along those lines. Maybe the twist is that Zavok has the mind of the original, so he's the only one that knows that the others are going to be losing their individuality/powers once they reach the endgame that they are all ostensibly working towards.
Something I've noticed when you were listing off previous villains and their stories and eventually got to Zavok: It just feels like Sega doesn't care about their story writing or building up characters like they used to. If they want us to like these characters, they need to give them more of a personality or something that stands out. Same thing can be said with Infinite, before Forces, everyone was hyped for this new villain and all he did was get called 'weak' by Shadow and at the end of the game Infinite just disappears into nothing. It also doesn't help with how the writing has been in the recent Sonic games. If we get a new main Sonic game this year, I'm hoping for good writing and a fleshed out villain or new character Edit: I didn't watch the whole video as I was typing this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If you want to see how i'd improve Zavok, check out the video below!
czcams.com/video/DSz3Zx9vsOo/video.html
Garrulous64 what game is that at 1:48 where ur playing as silver?? I need to play that game!
@@colet1615 Sonic World.
Shit how have I never heard of that game thank you
I've never even heard of him
Garrulous64
Hi 👋 I’m not sure if you’ll see this but what if Zavok and the Deadly six were villains for Dr Eggman to face and overcome?
Like how Black Doom & Mephiles were villains to Shadow?
I’m curious to hear your opinion on this is?
(Thank you for reading.)🙏
Hell Infinite could have taken the power character slot. After all he isn't W E A K.
I would take Zavok over that OC
MetalKingBoo
I’m pretty sure he still is,after all, Infinite is just another character that looks like a deviant art oc that wants to take the spotlight and became powerful by harnessing the power of a rare jewel and wearing a mask. XD
Yea, I think Infinite is a really good villain
Nah Infinite could have been the Technique and Eggman should have been the Power character from the start cuz he was a damn power type in Riders!
He ded
Chaos: Misunderstood chao who wanted vengeance and in the end resorted back to being good.
Dark Gaia: Massive demon who literally destroyed the world. Was defeated through sacrifice.
Metal Sonic: Sonic's non verbal comic like rival who is almost as Iconic as sonic himself.
Zavok: Thicc bad boy with Thicc muscles who looks at the camera for 2 minutes and then disappears.
*Thicc boi*
one red boi
i dont even think chaos is a good villain,but at least there would be a reason to bring him back.the chaosemeralds are still a vital part of soniclore,right? they kinda disappeared randomly
hearing the word 'thicc' to describe zavok hit me in the kneecaps
*Zavok: Walmart Bowser
I don't personally mind Zavok being in TSR, it's really not a big deal to me at all, but I definitely don't think anyone has a right to claim hypocrisy on liking Bowser but not Zavok. The only thing they have in common are Sonic Team's poor attempts to have a Bowser-esque villain for their heavily Mario-esque game at the time, the two are completely different in every other way so the comparison is completely negligible in my opinion
Oh hi fellow Persona fan-I mean Lil Boulder!
I would have to agree with you there. The king of Koopa himself I always thought was a great character due to games like inside story and I was able to at least take him a little bit seriously, but Zavok? I don't like at all, and he is in no way comparable to Bowser. (Mind you I hate lots about Lost World).
That doesn't even make sense.
Why should you like an inferior version of something? If anything that's more reason to dislike it because it's clearly failing to do anything that makes what it's based on special.
@@andrewt329 To whom are you replying
@@themcguinnessexperiment617
No one. Just putting my thoughts out there.
Despite the sheer amount of wasted potential Infinite had, he still at least has a cool design, slick voice and a kickass theme song. Zavok has nothing going for him besides being a blatant Bowser rip-off, and also being *the* most generic, forgettable villain in a video-game I’ve ever played.
#saveInfinite
#SaveInfinite
Agreed! Really, he had so much potential and was an interesting villan! Why not just do more with him?
Callum Sparrow I guess the Deadly 6 theme was pretty good.
Infinite was the badass character that never met his full potential. I would like Sega to do more with him.
Nah man, Infinite was a pussy who relied on a magic stone after Shadow kicked his ass.
REAL badass villain would be Mephiles.
Bowser has the ability to be both charming and intimidating, sometimes both at the same time.
Zavok has neither of those things. He is just......Zavok.
Yeah exactly
He's literally the personification of the deadly sin of wrath. Bowser has no such symbolism. Shows what you know.
@@dapperfan44 Just because a character is based off of something doesn't make them inherently well-written or impactful or *good*, nor does that automatically make the symbolism something that's well-implemented into or well-represented in his character.
No one was saying the Deadly Six wasn't based off of a concept, we all know that, it's obvious and goes without saying. We're saying that Bowser is a good character, and that Zavok is not.
@@dapperfan44 dapperfan44 If I made up a character that was based on Satan, that doesn't just automatically make it good. There needs to be competent writing, and character traits, motivations that make sense, etc. In other words, he has to be an ACTUAL CHARACTER instead of a stand-in for something else. Otherwise you could just call him "Wrath" or "Satan" because he's not really a character, just a rip-off of something else.
Also, "shows what you know"? Really?
@@Garrulous64 Luna Alex even then, it's a _Sonic game_ at the end of the day. I'm not looking for Uncharted-level writing, I'm just here to have fun. Fighting Zavok was fun, therefore I was pleased.
Okay...
This is really starting to frustrate me. You keep saying ZAH-VUK. That's not how it's pronounced.
The correct pronunciation is...
Discount Bowser.
Thank you kind sir
More like Goodwill Bowser
more like thrift store bowser
Ah, I see what you did there
Its Like detos but bowser
Detos are a bootleg of Doritos
Infinite is RIGHT THERE. He doesn't have much more personality than Zavok but atleast they TRIED to give a him a backstory with the comic and episode shadow. He's also Eggman's only partner that hasn't betrayed him AND accomplished Eggman's goals of world domination.
Zavok is diet Bowser.
Also infinite has a much better character design than Zavok. Zavok is such a lazy character. Edit. although gamma is canonically dead, why not have some sort of eggman robot as the third member, it would make sense since nobody else likes him.
Infinite has a better personality too. He tries to be an edgelord and act scary but he is just weak and with a lot of fear inside him.
Also Cubot and Orbot would have been better.
Agustin Leguiza They should've used Metal Knuckles as Team Eggman's power type.
@@iregretsomeofmypreviouscom3284 i aM nOt wEaK!!11
i'm the catman, don't forget though, Infinite's backstory was retconned by the end of the game when they revealed he was kept in a lab and was Metal Sonic lite all along.
Personally I think Infinite would have been a better choice. Think about it: Sega REALLY hyped that guy up and fans were *excited* to see him in Forces. Forces didn't really do many good things with him, but he's got a lot of potential. He's a stand-alone character, too. But the main thing is this: he was loyal to Eggman until the end. It's like Sega wants Infinite to be his new assistant. Zavok was not loyal to Eggman and betrayed him the second he had the chance. It would honestly make more sense to have Infinite rather than Zavok.
Well-said, sir. Sega needs to start asking Sonic Team to give thought to store, lore, and character relationships; this would have been a vast improvement in that regard.
I was seriously Infinite would've been the last member on Robotnik's team. *sigh* Or hell Chaos would've been great to. But nope......Zavok.
In Lost World, Zavok and the rest of the Deadly Six stopped being loyal to Eggman because Sonic kicked the horn out of Eggman's hands that controlled the Deadly Six.
Sonic Team wasting a character's potential? Now where have I seen that before? *Stares at Silver* In all seriousness I agree, Infinite should've been in Sonic TR, not Zavok
Ah yes, it's make more sense putting a character so powerful who defeated Sonic *driving a car* , i mean Team Sonic Racing is after Sonic Forces and putting a character that mysterious who we don't know he died or just dissapeared *driving a car* it's just to ridiculous, he just dissapeared leaving us the mystery if he's dead or no, but hell yeah let's solve that mystery putting him back *driving a car*
Most importantly.... HE IS NOT EVEN WORKING FOR EGGMAN. INFACT, HE HATES EGGMAN! WHY IS HE TEAMING WITH HIM?!
First2comment YEAH WTF and zavok is like a cheap copy of bowser
He doesn't even get paid. Literally in the Story Mode
Charii assumed he might owe Eggman something. What if the doctor sent one of his robots to attack Zavok and then "saved" the zeti,who in turn decided to thank Robotnik and joined his team?
@@user-gn5jt5gf2x Sonic saved Zavok from Eggman's control and then Zavok Literally treathened to turn sonic's best friend into a robot,so yeah,Zavok isn't really a guy you can trust.
Right at 6:09 when you asked what Zavok was, a trailer for a Marvel game came up and Thanos was immediately standing there. It took me a second to realize it was an ad, I thought you were comparing Zavok to Thanos for some reason.
Zavos/Thavok
lol
i wish zavok was a thanos-type villain, maybe then he'd be interesting
Bruh i got a ritz ad it’s official Zavok is a ritz
ShadowOftheSilver / TheGlitchedOutGamer *it's a sign*
I really think the only reason they chose Zavok in TSR is because Chaos doesn't speak. But if that's the case, why not just go with Infinite? Infinite at least has fans, even if it's only for his design.
Exactly. They hyped Infinite up so hard for Forces and then they just threw him away because the reception was bad. They clearly didn't have any faith in him as a character.
Garrulous64
Infinite it’s a Speed or technical type onw
ElectricEgg
Metal makes Mechanical and Techno noises in some later iterations. Don’t ask which ones, because I cannot remember...
Eggman = Power
Metal Sonic = Speed
Cubot & Orbot = Technique
@Agustin Leguiza
Eggman it’s not power
To be honest before this video I forgot who zavok was
Your comment made me laugh.
same
I remmember him from lost world. The evil guy from sonic lost world.
SEGA: Hey what if we bring back zavok for a racing game, since it isn’t a main line game
Dylan: OOO BOY WHATS THIS
And still no Cream the Rabbit. 😢
@@legoking6165 IKR, I mean maybe they'll make a DLC team with her and the other two Chaotix members, but it's just weird.
Replace all characters with Big the cat "BOOM" I fixed the game, you may shower me with flowers and money now.
B I G isn't how you spell Blaze. You know that, right?
*You guys really don’t know how to spell Metal Sonic?*
-Then they reveal sonic lost world 2-
This would wound me.
Then sonic lost world 3 & knuckles
@@Garrulous64 And it's actually good.
i would actually kill myself
@@sonicthehedgehog611 then sonic lost world 4 Mania
Basically Zavoc, and the deadly six are just poor versions of Bowser and the Koopalings. Sure the Koopalings have one main trait, but even they’re still more fleshed out characters.
Not really. At least the Six can talk. I mean the Koopalings have a lot more games though. Sega needs to flesh out the Six if they want to keep using them. And they need to be together.
The koopalings talk in the RPGs.
@@Garrulous64 True.
@@Garrulous64 And you know there are actually a lot of characters in Sonic that have more personality that don't talk now that I think about it. Like Chaos and (usually)Metal Sonic.
Yeah wait a minute, Metal Sonic doesn't talk and he can race. The Chao don't talk and they can race. Why couldn't they just use Chaos for Eggman's team? People woulda ate that up.
"zic: he's evil Yoda." Best thing I've ever heard.
I still don’t get why they gave Zavok a boss fight, instead of Chaos. Yes, of course! Because Zavok is *SUCH* *a popular character* that he needs a boss fight, and not Chaos.
Nintendo: "We make new characters and carry them on the best we can to be sure they are fitting and are favorable.
Sega: "We make new characters yet don't really give a damn what happens to them or whatever else."
Nintendo literally puts Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach as playable characters in spinoffs despite those being not even real characters.
Also Dr.Mario in Smash. No excuse.
@@iregretsomeofmypreviouscom3284 Literally the only thing Sega (or sonic team) do when it comes to new characters is that they don't even try thinking about how it should work in the game. This is them: "Hey look we made a new sonic character lets just throw him in there and see if he or she does a great job or not." Take a good look at this: no thinking, no going into terms and no plan. Every time a new character is introduced in a sonic game it can always turn out to be either boring, uninteresting, dumb or annoying.
Princess Daisy.
@@theamazingmaymay123 yes
Fun is INFINITE
Signed by djnn
Infinite:
>Has some popularity
>Cool design
>Somewhat intimidating
>Funny backstory
>He is not weak
>Doesn't get in TSR
Zavok:
>Uh, he is a villain
>Uh
>He is a villain
>Gets in TSR
> gets some characterization in IDW Bad Guys I think idk I haven't read IDW uhhhh
I really think you nailed it here, Dylan!
Bowser works because we got a twenty hour game of fleshing out to make up for the twenty years of missing character development, and that worked because the writers made Bowser one of the most lovable characters in video game history. Bowser is able to stand on his own in character and personality, without his minions, because he's got a depth to him and a lot of moments that define and make him memorable.
Heck, Zavok being a recent character isn't even an issue! Rosalina was introduced in 2007, and because she was loved by fans she got to be in tons of future titles. Same thing is happening with Pauline, an-old-turned-new fan favorite, with her being included in Mario Tennis Aces and a Spirit in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate! Sure, they have supporting elements, like Luma for Rosalina and Donkey Kong for Pauline, but they're still their own character.
Zavok is written poorly, requires cohorts to matter, and, beyond being able to block attacks from Super Sonic in one of his fights. doesn't have anything outstanding or memorable to him. It's far too late to rework him into a reoccurring character, and we have enough of those as it is. Team Eggman's heavy character could've been E-100 (Zero), you know... that robot that chases Amy in Sonic Adventure that no one seems to know the name of... and it would've been better. I would've liked to see an updated model of that thing!
I wouldn't really say adding Zavok is like adding Ludwig. It's more like adding Axem Ranger Red. Didn't do much except lead a team of cliches and lost.
It's hard for me to be mad or annoyed with the choice of Zavok because at the end of the day, it's a racing game and it will only be looked at for a short period of time. In other words, I can't bring myself to care.
It's more that I just really dislike the character because he's not really anything other than a big red stop sign for Sonic to knock over.
Oh, right, the Axem Rangers are a thing... Man, I miss them...
Garrulous64
He’s not
Going by TWIP, the game's gonna be really good anyways. So. . .who cares.
Plus. . .DLC and/or secret unlockable characters are not out of the question.
@@johnr.deluca4258
Yeah, but... that's going by TWIP, which is a whole other can of worms, really.
It doesn't even make sense with the Teams thing either, Eggman could have been Power, Metal could have been Speed and Orbot & Cubot (or someone else) could have been Technical, but why did we get this instead? It doesn't make sense to me.
@Daniel von Strangle For the Orbot & Cubot thing, nobody asked for 4 chaos yet we got them so why not them, not only that but it would make a lot of sense why they are with Eggman, and i say no for Tails Doll for 2 things, First of all how is a doll going to drive a car?, And second of all i don't think Sega will use the character thanks to that Creepypasta, i know its not real but other people/kids may not know it so i don't think its going to give Sega a good reputation for the game.
Eggman as power makes no sense to me.
The only trait that Eggman have of a power character is... that he's fat, like Big. That's really the only thing I can tell. Maybe in his gundam/robot from SA2 he feels "powerful", but I don't see them put Eggman in a gundam in a car x)
@Daniel von Strangle there isnt even a flight category. It's "Technique".
@@GordieKat Eggman was a power type in Riders
At least Infinite had a tiny bit of depth and things that made him memorable (in both good and bad ways), but he was at least a half-decent villain. He would have been a better choice for the power type (Eggman could force him into the role if he's still around). Although, I believe that an artificial Chaos clone or just some Eggman robot (heck, even an EggPawn) would have been better choices than Zavok.
They could have used an angry stop sign and it would have been equal to or better than Zavok
@@Garrulous64 LOL
A freaking Ring would've been a better character than zavok.
I would rather prefer Mephiles than Infinite.
@@CrimsonNeo Well, he probably won't ever be seen again, but he was one of the few Sonic villains to get stuff done (aka, kill Sonic).
Oh wait, zavok is from lost world?..
Oh wait... he was...
Orbot and Cubot in one car
King hard boiled heavie in a car
Hell...SCRATCH AND GROUNDER WOULD HAVE BEEN WAY BETTER! No one likes zavoc...he is way too boring
Scratch and Grounder would actually be pretty cool not gonna lie-
But how would Orbot and Cubot be a Power type character or Scratch and Grounder so thats the only reason zavok is here
Eggman is power type like he was in Riders. Orbot and Cubot are Technical, and Metal is speed. It's easy.
"No one likes zavoc"
*Sweats nervously*
Hell, even the Metarex, Decoe, Bocoe and Bokkun were by miles better than Deadly Six!
#BokkunForTSR
One of my favorite things about Forces were the trailers where they showed all the returning villains and all of them look super iconic and then we pan to Zavok, who looks super out of place just purely over how generic he looks.
Zavok's inclusion doesn't make sense in Team Eggman, since he hates Eggman. It would've made more sense if he had his own team with Zazz and Zeena. They also could've used Infinite to be in Eggman's team, too, so why is Zavok in Eggman's team?!
The Koopalings are indeed being characterized more.
In Paper Jam, Color Splash, and the new modes, especially Bowser Jr's Journey, I like them more than just their designs.
They are developing characters now, and I actually want them to return in more main games, as long as they aren't the main bosses.
One of my favorite ideas for a new 2D Mario game that I've came up with, is splitting up the Volcano World and Bowser's Castle.
Instead of having Bowser's Castle be a single level, you would go inside of it, and there would be 7-9 more levels. Each One would go through a different part of the castle, and you'd end up inside someone's room. That someone being a Koopaling, and you'd fight them. That way they can be in the game, and have their time to shine, but instead of being the main bosses of each world, they would be the boss of their home, and the main bosses can ACTUALLY be interesting characters. I'm starting to ramble about the problems with 2D Mario now, so I think I'll end this here.
You know, I completely agree.
At least Chaos, and dark gaia, had unique quirks. Zavok...he's just bowser but worse.
And not at all sexy.
@@kuribirdie that too
I agree 100%. Especially about the Bowser part. I first played Bowser’s Inside Stort on the DS, and he has way more personality than Zavok could ever dream of. Great video!
I agree
"Zic, hes evil yoda"
That is hilarious
I don't know why they put Zavok in, but not Cream or the other Chaotix
Atleast I REMEMBERED Cream and The Chaotix, But I always keep forgetting about Zavok, and the Deadly six in general...
What about espeo
He's not in the game, from what we've seen
They needed a character for Team Eggman.
And before you say it, adding Infinite in a racing game inmediately after he apeared would be a wasted oportunity. If he will return he should do it in a meaningful way.
People want to forget, be they where a mistake.
I can remember even Charmy but I always forget Zavok and everything about Lost World at all
9:39 I guess you could say that there are... INFINITE possibilities with his character roles in the future.
I honestly wish there was one more member so that could be based on the Seven Deadly Sins. Zavok would easily be Wrath, Zeena would be Lust, Zom would be Gluttony, Zik would be Pride, Zor would be Sloth, and Zazz... uh, maybe Envy? So the last one would be based on Greed.
I mean if two particular anime can flesh out seven characters, why not Sega?
Eggman would represent Greed.
As someone who actually really likes Zavok, i can say his inclusion in Team Sonic Racing makes no sense at all.
He hates Eggman's guts, there's no way they're gonna come up with a good reason why he's working with him, especially after Forces dropped that ball. He's just introduced like it's normal for him to be working with Eggman and that's...confusing, to say the least.
TBH I think Infinite of all characters would work in that slot. He dissappeared in a similarly anticlimatctic manner, sure, but he actually willingly worked with Eggman and never betrayed him, only butting heads with him in the past. If not that option, why not have Orbot & Cubot in one car? That'd be fun.
So we got crazy,fat,evil yoda,girl,depressed, and leader wOw
I feel that even disregarding the Mario RPG's Bowser is still a more likable character. He's always doing something unexpected. His fight in New Super Mario Bros isn't a platforming stage. He has a realistic looking dragon in odyssey. He has a cool car in 3d world. Zavok never does anything cool, interesting, unique, or surprising. He's just dull.
Sonic lost world? More like sonic lost characteristics.
This video is so right in every way. Zavok is so underwhelming compared to Bowser when you play through Bowsers Inside Story because the interactions in that game with chippy/star low, the bros, peach, and ESPECIALLY fawful and midbus are beautifully written. You can tell the story writers behind that game had a blast embracing the characters in that game and actually put effort into the plot.
The simplistic “no direction” style that Mario has doesn’t work well with Sonic. You can really see that in these games in the past decade. That’s why he’s such I a shit villain. Especially when you look back towards people like Chaos, Shadow, Mephiles, etc. Those characters were also back when these games had more fleshed out stories, characters, and lore.
Who actually likes Zavok? I understand why he was put in forces, they needed a fourth bad guy to round out that line up, but why are they putting him in TSR? Who likes this guy. Chaos or Infinite, heck or even someone more obscure like Mephilis or Imparator Ix from chronicles would have been neat. (I understand why they wouldn't do mephitis though, he does have a neat design.) Seriously, how does this guy stick around?
That's what I want to know.
Zerodot 0 I mean... Mephiles was already thrown into a canon spin-off game... granted it was a mobile one but they still did.
They already have some DLC lined up though, I wouldn't be shocked if one of the teams is a Team Deity consisting of:
Power: Chaos
Technique: Tikal
Speed: Mephiles
Jus to throw in a third member even if Mephiles doesn't have a connection to them despite all having connections to or being a higher authority. Because I don't think we can fit Dark Gaia into a car or anything.
I actually like Zavok
@@Jorx390 ok then, what character does he have?
@@SteveCrafts2k he's big an evil that's enough
3:03 Hmmm do I hear a Steven Universe meme....?
*Greg calls the police*
8:19 That is completely different to the Zavok situation because Ludwig is the best koopaling
Zavok is technically the best Deadly Six member though. Like, they're all trash but he's probably the least trash besides Zazz, but that's not saying much. Trash is still trash.
@@Garrulous64 It's because the Koopalings have actual fans.
@@Garrulous64 Zazz was the best smh
@@Garrulous64 Zazz isn't trash tho,I loved him in lost worlds,he is insanely funny.
@@Garrulous64Axem Ranger Red would still be a more apt comparison.
I want lost world to be removed from the canon.
Nothing important even happens so I don't really think it would even matter.
@@freeziboi3249 True, but the deadly 6 wouldn't exist.
WHY?!
is not a bad game (at all)
And Zavok is not a bad character
You can think that, that's fine.
That doesn't sound like an issue to me.
Infinite would've been better. He is literally the only villain that never even betrayed Eggman and wanted to help him.
Bowser in the omlympic games: *yes I'm not a sonic character,but I still took that personnally*
Hmmm I'm curious, maybe you should do a video on how to fix Zavok and the rest of the Six, that would be an interesting video.
That might be interesting. I'm not sure i'm creative enough to be able to do that though.
Garrulous64
Nah, I believe in you.
You can do it.
While I do understand your opinion entirely and agree with almost everything you said, there is one thing I want to say....
Mario Kart 8 originally had the Koopalings( without Bowser Jr.) as playable characters. The game also added Pink Gold Peach and Metal Mario(Two characters based off of other characters) into the game. Zavock is a "character" that doesn't need to be in this game( And probably is a leftover from Forces ), I will give you that( Especially since we should of had the entirety of Team Chaotix and Cream in Sliver and Blaze's team). But this isn't as big an issue as Nintendo had with their own characters( ie. Toadette, Pink Gold Peach, Daisy isn't considered a major character despite debuting from a mainline game, Waluigi and Professor.Gaud not being considered for a racing spinoff, and the presence of Dry Bowser( even though he is a *Dead* version of Bowser). Many Characters are either forgotten or not even within the thoughts of the developers, and Sonic is a series with this big issue. But the Mario series is no saint with this issue( especially when Nintendo decides to create characters out of Princess Peach.
P.S: I meant no harm when writing this.
I agree. And the dumb babies.
MK8 had the absolute WORST roster of playable characters in any game I've ever played.
@Marisa Kirisame
Really? Who cares?
@@zkyegamble5714 Apparently the two people in this thread other than you share a similar opinion to mine, that's why I said it.
I don’t think SEGA is going to a zavok’s inside story because Nintendo did it already and the deadly 6 weren’t well received.
I always forget about Zavok
I like him decently. Who would you put as the power though? Chaos is a deeper character and he's not really a villain. Maybe they should have made an original villian.
LOL it does imply the zeti get straight up killed. Honestly the 3DS version shows them fly away at least.
Maybe we should give Zavok a chance. Half the Sonic cast would be bland characters if we only count Colors onward. And I agree, the Deadly Six need to be together.
They should have used Infinite. They just made a new villain and he was plenty powerful.
@@Garrulous64 Infinite was such a disappointment to me honestly. Biggest letdown of a character ever. He was advertised up to be this godlike entity that surpasses Sonic in every way and would push him to his limits, but in the actual game that never happens. I would like them to give Infinite a better backstory and another chance, but I doubt they will.
He really was, but I feel that his design was better, he stands on his own as a character (Zavok doesn't) and they put a lot of time into marketing Forces, so it shocks me they didn't just go with him.
@@Garrulous64 They need to give his worldview a reason to be what it is and make him powerful without the crutch of the Phantom Ruby. The reason he comes off as so silly is lack of justification for his edginess imo. And Sonic's reactions to him are also a problem. Remember in the trailer for Forces when Sonic was all pissed off and serious? Yeah, not in the game. :/
@@GordieKat Well it's the writers who made his potential underdeveloped and half-baked he could've been a dominating villain it would've been better off if he didn't have a backstory sometimes it makes the villain more threatening and devious if we're actually curious about a villain that just pretty much came out of nowhere.
honestly, i'd rather see infinite come back than zavok.
as for him being the power slot... shouldn't that go to eggman? he was power type in the riders games, so i see little to no reason he shouldn't keep that.
Because 1) that game operated on Heroes types, and thus, had no other workable types, 2) he's Skill in the Olympics, and 3) he's an evil genius, making him Power when a type for smart people exists in the same game is inherently wasteful.
Zavok, more like Tragic.
Those dont even rhyme
@@theringsragingflameinciner3901 It actually does.
@@lordkaijux5262 its za-vuk not za-VIC
@@theringsragingflameinciner3901 Both words end with an IC/ICK sound. Other than that tomato tomato.
Zavok. More like pathetic.
I really feel like tails doll or infinite would have been a way better choice, like zavok is one of those villans thats like "oh i am scary so you should be shaking in your boots!" kind of villan. hell, i only liked zavok when he went all bowser in lost worlds final boss. so im totally on point with ur opinion.
They just keep pushing this white desk of a character for no reason and it kinda looks like one guy on the st creative staff just keeps pushing his cool original character design to be featured in more and more sonic games. I think Zavok was also in one of the olympic games
Man, I actually really liked the deadly six as villains and Im happy to see they are still doing things with them
Yea i like them too they are my favorites.
Finally i see someone who agrees with me
Not to defend Zavok or anything, but
He's having hardly any games to grow his personality compared to Bowser. And if Super Mario PRG never happened, we won't get him as he is in Super Mario Sunshine and beyond. King Koopa would still be NES villain cut-out...
And don't forget old North American manual booklets, Nintendo Power magazines and shows what made up Bowser's lore as we know. Sega just doesn't care of adding the printed trivia to their characters nowadays. Even IDW don't seem to be fond of expanding the Deadly Six either.
Yeah, this game can possibly make him a likeable character
@@Burnout-db7ji CRINGE BEFORE ZAVOK
I didn't even realize the similarity between Zavoc and Bowser until you mentioned it! Why was Lost World trying so hard to be Mario??? I just don't understand! Why Sega!? You made Sonic to rival Mario not copy him! 🤦🏻♂️
It really confuses me as to why they didn't make Eggman the power-type instead. Heck, if they wanted someone that still would be more interesting they could've added an obscure Eggman robot from the other games(like Heav- oh wait Classic characters don't exist in Modern Sonic, forgot about that).
Are you a fan of wasted opportunities? Because they didn't waste the opportunity to make the guy with superhuman intelligence be the type literally meant for people like him.
You have hit the nail right on the head, my good man. None of the Deadly Six are characters; they're character-shaped objects.
Personally, I'd love for the "Deadly Six" to be forgotten altogether. Unlike Ray, Mighty, Bean, and so on, those six actually *deserve* to be forgotten and never used again.
___
I really hope Sega's decision-makers see this video, and videos like it.
Honestly I never really cared about Zavok either way. While I liked lost world more then others but not to a love standpoint (I need to replay it) I was caught in a weird place not knowing why Zazz or Zavok showed up so much (they were shortly in rio Olympics) but even though the designs are generic why everyone was so upset about them. That being said this video clarified that so much for me and makes complete sense. I always remembered chaos due to childhood shadows awesome and so is metal sonic. Infinite had so much potential and just flopped sadly. These characters worked because in a lot of cases they either developed (like shadow) or took over as the final villain. Zeena also looked promising like she’d be a strong memorable female villain but then she was so girly which is strange for a villain who looks like this. Another issue is that lost world didn’t have enough characters to interact with. Chaos interacted with so many characters, so did shadow and rouge. Zavok only really interacted with sonic, tails and Eggman. If they had more characters that he interacted with giving him more motive personality and a great boss fight he would’ve been better for it. Sorry that I went on a bit of a tangent but I enjoyed the video! 😄
I like this new style of video, dude! It’s awesome
I would have preferred one of the Archie villains in that power type slot instead.
Im not sure why but i kind of like zavok. The idea of a sonic universes bowser is intresting to me. I dont know whats wrong with me. I just think hes kinda cool.
zavoc imo doesnt even design wise belong in a sonic game, he came from lost world where everything was more un-sonic-y in aesthetic than ever. He just looks so simple and unappealing. He doesnt seemt o have texture or interesting limbs. Compare him with eggman and one'll notice how much more detail eggman has in each part of his body. I would've by far preferred cubot and orbot for technique so eggman could go power.
"If you take his five subordinates away, then what is he!?"
I was typing my other comment at this point. After you said that, an ad kicked in that had a moment of silence, and then a man saying: "I can deduct this, right?"
I had thought that was an actual part of the video; it's such a funny coincidence for me that I can't help but want to share.
honestly bowser jr's journey actually made the koopalings feel like characters and they are really fun
I haven't played that cuz I'm not a fan of the gameplay, but I'll try and watch the cutscenes if that's the case.
ALL of the Deadly Six are bad characters.
Fixed your title.
I like zazz
You dont like Sonic Bowser?
The way you describe the Deadly Six was spot on.
After doing some research I found out that Zavok and the rest of the Deadly Six are based on Japanese Oni (Demons), they are described as being hulking figures with one or more horns growing out of their heads and being several different colors like red and blue. Oni were often depicted as being the stock villains of folklore, literature and theater so perhaps that is why the Deadly Six don't have much personality, they were designed to be similar in origin to the Oni. If you look up drawings and statues of Oni they look a lot like Zavok red color and all plus maybe Sega of Japan wanted to create something in the Sonic universe that represents Japanese mythology.
They already had Miles Prower for that.
@@bubbykins4864 I believe your thinking of the Kitsune foxes. I meant something Japanese that's truly on the side of evil, like Mario's Kappas or koopas as Nintendo calls them.
Zavok is what you get when you take all the personality out of bowser
Not really,if he was even that,he would actually last longer than a minute against sonic LOL.
Well. I respect your opinion. I personally am more in between but Zavok is just not intresting enough. If he had more things like a backstory (Unlike Infinite who's backstory is literally Mercenary, then Shadow called him weak, then he kills everybody.), he would be better. And me personally think that Chaos should be there instead of Zavok. At least we get some... Variety I guess?
I like Zavok and the other Deadly Six -conceptually, they're very one note and poorly written- but I am 100% ready to hear you roast him for ten minutes
Nintendo: HEY U DID COPY OFF OF US?
SEGA: noooooo *cough* maybe
This is one of those times where i wish the Mario and sonic fanbases swapped.
"Koopa troopa doesn't deserve to be in Mario kart" lol.
Implying that Zavok is somehow as good as Koopa Troopa
Implying that he's as good as the weakest common enemy prior to 1992 when Waddle Dees took over the role of being the weakest foe in all of gaming.
Sonic Lost World is an awesome game, but not a Sonic one. Nothing in it fits Sonic, but it's still awesome and the music is just amazing.
That's the common thing about Sega nowadays. Creates a memorable character that is loved and supported by either a large or small but strong group of fans, almost completely forgotten or receives the role as a NPC or a cameo. Forgettable character, a minuscule or not even a any countable fans and is given roles that barely make any sense or just shot out of the blue. It's how I felt when I found out for TSR that Silver, Blaze, and E-123 Omega were going to be in this game. I was overjoyed to be able to play as them again even if it was for a racing game. Zavok....wait, what?!
The people over at sonic team seem to care more about zavok then they do alot of the other sonic villains like chaos
You really hit the nail on the head here.
If they needed a power type, why not throw in someone more recent? Sure the heavies are from a classic style game, but they could transition to 3D well.
And the deadly six, I guarantee, were made the way they were because of the Nintendo exclusivity deal. They’re basically like Koopalings in a way.
@Viva La Waifu
The developers said “Only Modern Characters”
To take out the possibility of “Classic Sonic Nostalgia” again.
Zavok it’s a cool choice and very logical so don’t complain for one character
The heavies are not related to this eggman theyre from the mania world
champion of alola nick
That’s the point. It’s classic Sonic characters, So we might not get a “Classic Sonic team with Mighty and Ray”
champion of alola nick well yeah but still
Hysteria didn’t hear that
Zavok, the rest of the Deadly Six, And Infinite are main reasons I want new writers for the games. They get hyped up so much but they end up being generic and forgettable because the writers suck dick at making new characters interesting. If they were in control of someone like Shadow in his first appearance, I have a feeling he wouldn’t be as loved as he is today.
This was the FIRST video I watched on your channel! :)
Zavok, more like bargain bin bowser
OK, look. I understand Cream and Cheese aren't the most important and interesting characters in the series, but why do you choose random Chao and ZAVOK, over her? Cream at least is more interesting than either of them, and has been in the series longer than Zavok. SEGA, what are you doing?
the chaos represent cream, she ain't old enough to drive for one,and has faded into obscurity
@@draco4450
Being old enough doesn't really work when there is a certain someone with two tails that easily can drive. I understand he's kind of the exception, but it's still a faulty argument nonetheless.
And Cream has been in recent titles, like Sonic Generations, as well as in the mobile Sonic Forces game. If she's faded into obscurity, why do they still use a character like Blaze, who also hasn't been seen since Sonic Forces, or Big, who wasn't even been in a main Sonic title since who knows how long.
@@Mr.Cynical Disrespect Big one more time and we're going to have a long talk
8:14 I mean, Ludwig got a special treatment many times on the Mario series.
He's always been the koopaling with the best boss fight.
My biggest confusion with this is that they could have added characters from more popular games. they could have replaced Zavok with the Heavy King, replaced Metal Sonic with Infinite, and given Metal Sonic his own team with the other two copycat robots (Tails Doll and Metal Knuckles) who we haven't seen outside of comics since 1997 in Sonic R.
And if they wanted to go the extra mile, they could make them Team Neo, and give Tails Doll and Metal Knuckles Neo Designs like Metal's in Heroes.
There are SO many teams they could have added to make this the best racing game in the series. like, why are the Chao with Amy and Big instead of Cream and Cheese? you know, ACTUAL CHARACTERS? and why is Vector of all characters with Blaze and Silver instead of those detective guys that you apparently want on your side? they could have added Fang/Nack, Bark and Bean! Mighty, Ray and Honey the Cat! Maybe they could have put Cream with Blaze and Silver, and had E-102 Gamma with Amy and Big! So much about this game is a missed oppurtinity, I could go for a while about how much they could have added.
I don’t really care that he is in it.
You know, I won't mind Zavok appearing a lot in Sonic stuff if they give him some character development and interactions with others like he did in IDW Comics, so that way he won't be just some generic big scary thug for hire when he reappears.
Forces & TSR could've have him banter with other characters but he was mostly an afterthought and also like Shadow & Metal Sonic he's just there as a boss fight and going against Sonic.
Bowser Jr.’s story in the remake of bowsers inside story builds a ton of character between the koopalings. If you have the remake, I suggest you play Bowser Jr.’s part aswell.
"Bowser has had more time to grow his character in other things, and Zavok hasn't"
Then give him a chance to do so. Look I'm sorry, but praising Bowser for having a personality developed in spinoffs while complaining about Zavok in a spinoff is incredibly hypocritical. Like any character he needs time to grow and develop. Like Bowser, or hell like other Sonic characters. Half the cast was bland in their debut but overtime were developed further and became likable characters. While I agree that Zavok wasn't memorable from the start, you gotta give it a chance. He's been in 3 games including TSR, and one of them isn't canon, while the other was a fake Zavok. That leaves his debut game which suffered from very bad writing. But I'm sure that given proper care, Zavok could become not only a good character, but someone just as memorable as the rest of the cast, maybe one day living up to someone like Bowser. But for that to happen we need to allow him to be included so he can be further developed. Besides... it's just a racing game, who really cares?
It's not my job to let him grow his character, Sega has to do that. Any game that these characters appear in are fair game in terms of turning them into something more than what they appear to be, and I definitely don't see it your way. Sonic Team has had 6 years to do something interesting with Zavok and they just haven't, so that's on them.
@@Garrulous64 That is true. Honestly I think Sonic Team just needs new staff at this point
@Garrulous64
Yeah but it’s a car racing game that he’s base it’s on Speed type- Technically Type- And Powert Type
Who really it’s “Power” on the Sonic lore that can be recognizable? Exactly, villains like Infinite or Chaos or Mephiles are Techincal or speed types we don’t have too much Brute Force.
Even that, Zavok it’s not entirely brute force, he even attack with an strategy so even if Sega and Sonic team it’s trying to deal with his franchise, Maybe they can make better his development to be a better character.
Infinite could easily be a power type. He tried to kill everyone by dropping the sun on them. Not saying Infinite is a good character either, but he's at least better than Sonic Bowser
@Garrulous64
Not really, He’s abilities are more for technical or Speed type because of the phantom Ruby...
And we have enough edge With Shadow, Omega, Metal Sonic’s Car and Zavok.
Remember not Sonic Bowser or Incineroar it’s
Z A V O K
You can do it
Would've been a million times better if Eggman was the power character and Orbot and Cubot were driving in the same car as the technique character.
@Mikester_Paltoes
I think they are representing the “Physical” skill similar to heroes/adventure 2.
Its a Racing game, not fighting
Eggman as power doesn't mske sense to me at all.
How does it not make sense? He’s Eggman!
Eggman was already a Power type in Sonic Riders
@@iregretsomeofmypreviouscom3284...which abides by Heroes types.
Oh if you think Zavok is bad, wait til you see Zooey in Sonic Boom
Sega seems to love Zavok so much that they could even make an entire game where he just dies.
Maybe it's just me, but I think Zavok has a Superiority Complex.
Less than a minute in and I already agree with a bunch of points.
Edit: Okay I definitely agree with everything said. WHY ISN'T CHAOS IN THIS GAME?!
Star Bird Alright, Chaos in a Car. Ha Good one.
@@Lunatic-Overlord Sure, why not?
Also Chaos isn’t evil. Why would he help Eggman? Zavok may not be on the best terms with Eggman, but he is evil.
Zavok hates Eggman. Why would he help him?
@@Garrulous64 He can control Zavok's Mind u know.
"The Deadly Six worked in Lost World because together they basically made up one functioning antagonistic force. If you meshed them all together, their personalities would probably fill up one somewhat memorable villain..."
Now I'm thinking that Lost World's story would have been significantly improved by explaining that each of the Six was (or contained) a fragment of an original super-being's essence and were seeking to reunite back into its original form, or something along those lines. Maybe the twist is that Zavok has the mind of the original, so he's the only one that knows that the others are going to be losing their individuality/powers once they reach the endgame that they are all ostensibly working towards.
That's a really fun idea.
Something I've noticed when you were listing off previous villains and their stories and eventually got to Zavok: It just feels like Sega doesn't care about their story writing or building up characters like they used to. If they want us to like these characters, they need to give them more of a personality or something that stands out. Same thing can be said with Infinite, before Forces, everyone was hyped for this new villain and all he did was get called 'weak' by Shadow and at the end of the game Infinite just disappears into nothing. It also doesn't help with how the writing has been in the recent Sonic games. If we get a new main Sonic game this year, I'm hoping for good writing and a fleshed out villain or new character
Edit: I didn't watch the whole video as I was typing this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯