228: Solid State Batteries - Or Are They?
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- On today’s episode of Still To Be Determined we’re talking about the Yoshino “Solid State” battery and some of the controversy around it. There’s a lot to talk about … and definitely more to come on this topic.
Corrections:
24:15 - The name of the company is TechInsights, not Tech Ingredients.
Watch the Undecided with Matt Ferrell episode, Solid State Batteries Are REALLY Here: Yoshino Power Station • Solid State Batteries ...
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00:00 - Intro & Feedback
09:07 - Yoshino Solid State Battery Discussion
He still doesn't understand what a Solid State Cell is. The cells in the Yoshino battery are not Solid State.
Their safety data sheet states "ethylene carbonate" and "diethyl carbonate" and "methyl ethyl carbonate". These are dead stock mainstream liquid lithium ion electrolyte solvents. It also states lithium hexaflouro phosphate (the most common liquid lithium ion electrolyte salt) and poly ethylene polymer (the most common traditional liquid lithium ion separator) aluminum is the cathode current collector. Copper is the anode current collector, graphite is the anode, LiNiO2 is the cathode...they aren't even using NMC! Diflouroethylene polymer is the most common cathode binder. Styrene butadiene polymer and sodium carboxymethyl cellulose are always used as the anode binder in water based slurries for classic batteries. Nylon is what the outer pouch material is made of. Nickel is what the tabs are made of. But here's the biggest kicker... Phosphoric acid, iron(2+) lithium salt (1:1:1) is just a fancified description for LFP! Their cathode is an lfp nickel oxide blend (to boost enery density with the nickel). There is not a single component on their materials list that is not in a dead stock off the shelf consumer lithium ion battery. No unaccounted materials that could make a solid electryte. It is NOT even a semi solid state battery.
Safety tests can be be done in such a way to not cause the reaction you would expect (nail sharpness, nail material composition, cell size, even cell fixturing to dissipate heat). Passing some random safety test doesn't mean its actually safer in the real world even if you use a third party lab. (And many third party labs arent actually very good at their jobs). I havent seen anyone test their higher cycle life claims so all we have is their warranty to go by. If they'll lie about composition, id trust the warranty as far as i can throw it too.
7:38 That's absolutely shameful on Enphase's part.
I didn't hear anything about Enphase, only about the portable battery systems. Time stamp?
@@MatthewBarrettBrainTrainer 7:38 - Enphased charged them $250 to change the account to the new owner.
When a company uses word games with their description of a product I wonder if they will use word games with their warranty.
That's why you have legally-binding warranties for new and used products
I feel like calling something that is "semi-solid state" solid state is one of the less egregious misuses of technological terms by marketing. Eg "organic food" somehow coming to mean pesticide free rather than just containing carbon
The whole issue with his last video was the lie that it was Solid State Cells being used. Rather than listening to those that know the difference, he doubled down on the lie and relied on marketing BS.
Not watched TBD much (been mostly Undecided on and off) ... really enjoying this show. @Matt - I don't think you're perfect and you make some mistakes ... but I really enjoy your videos and find them informative. I like the premise of the channel, your personality, your attitude, your delivery, your humility and vulnerability, the work you put into presenting entertaining videos and the UX / end-user perspective. Please don't lose too much confidence when stuff trips you up or people disagree with you or occasionally show you up a bit lol. :) It's all a learning experience for all of us. Even for the absurdly pedantic. Ish. :) (Especially for them sometimes when the learning isn't occluded by their egos). :P~ (Hmmm - I have to include myself in that cohort sometimes). I think what you do is valuable. And I suspect a great deal of businesses market goods and services with a similar unarticulated "ish". Even reputable ones with pedigree engineering (precision) values.
I'm glad Matt is looking into this situation. The issue with definitions is that there are already generally accepted definitions of solid state vs. semi-solid state. Semi solid state have some benefits over a fully liquid electrolyte, like increased safety and such. But it's a small, evolutionary step. There are still organic solvent electrolytes soaked into the "solid" electrolyte substrate. It results in a mostly "dry" consistency (I've seen it described as paste or clay), but it's still very different from a true, solid state battery. Yoshino seems to use a semi-solid state battery (basically, just a lithium polymer cell, with a liquid electrolyte soaked into a "solid" polymer), but they market them as true solid state and utilize all the aspirational hype claims of true solid state. Even their claims of being the "worlds first" don't seem to be true if they are semi-solid state. I found another company selling power stations with semi-solid state batteries right now.
I bought a Yoshino B660, took it apart, and verified that the cells absolutely can violently fail in a fiery way. That alone contradicts many of Yoshino's claims that their batteries are not flammable and will not ignite when damaged. And the part number on the cells leads to a Safety Data Sheet that lists multiple, liquid, organic solvents. So if anything, they are semi solid state cell.
Thanks Guys. I'm very glad I didn't rush out and upgrade to Yoshino when they came out a year ago. On all their product literature, they should relabel as "semi-solid-state" or other nomenclature that is more honest. I still like the weight and size reduction compared to other solar generators, and may purchase on that basis alone.... but I'll wait another year so we have 2 year reviews of performance and reliability.
Two overall comments (beyond ongoing thanks to Matt & Sean): 1>> Enphase should be given a "broad-stroke" failure by BBB or similar organization (equivalent to price gouging) > Absolutely LOVED the fluid (yes, pun) conversation between you two on Yoshino issue (fluid or gel---and does it matter?). Keep up the GREAT work, even when projects take 5 hours.
I am more science oriented in my training and I tend to lean towards naming things correctly to prevent misconceptions. So I would lean to "semi-solid state" as a name for the overarching tech used in that Yoshino battery. It could well be that when real solid state batteries are available, the performance characteristics are even better than this. I also always had (still do really but that battle is lost) a problem with the name solar generators. Technically speaking the solar panels are generators and what we now call solar generators is really a combination of a battery with added electronics (charge controller, bms, converter, ....). The same goes for Matts AI example.
All batteries are semi-solid
Thanks for the info on Enphase. Hopefully I never have to sell so I can avoid that stupidity.
It actually makes me question using Enphase at all.
I think Matt kind of stumbled into hitting the nail on the head there, in at least as far as their marketing goes. If they were to start saying their battery, "uses Solid State Technology," and not listing it as an actual solid state battery, I think they're golden, that covers their bases pretty well. But full solid state and semi-solid state are really two different animals, though semi-solid state it a little bit of the best of both worlds. Easier to produce with traditional methods, but extra resistance to dendrite formation.
There isn't any Solid State technology being used though.
Their brief for sponsored youtubers who got the thing was to get the youtubers to hype the solid state batteries as being used.
Thats the real question: where did all these reviewers get the idea that it was the first solid state battery power station? Thats the bit we neer clarity on, how much of the entire reviews just come from the company brief?
Verify, verify, verify! Never trust marketing. Never trust people with a motive to get something of value from you.
Is it okay to market something as something it is not? Never. That is the very definition of misleading marketing. Companies will push meanings every way they can for profits. Honesty is absent.
As to the "solid state-ish" phrase, they could say based on solid state technology (if it actually is) and that would be absolutely fine as it is true.
This is the same reason honey "products" that contain honey but are not just honey can not be marketed or labelled as "Honey". It is claimed that the taste is the same, but those products in most cases are mostly corn syrup, flavoring and a bit of honey, not "Honey".
8:00 "What are you charging for?" -- "Because we *can*, that's why."
I had to stop halfway through and rewatch a teardown on a solid-state battery that was a simi-solid state battery. It was also supposed to be very safe but the cell he punctured flamed nicely. That might be why people wanted to see what was inside.
To ship overseas. Ship it with a freight forwarder. They will do your paperwork for you! I use to be one.
I contacted Amazon and I hope they investigate this.
The Yoshino battery is probably semi solid state which explains why it doesn't have a bigger weight advantage over NMC. I did doubt they were actually using a solid electrolyte in a production battery because from all reports there are some extremely big players who while close, have yet to solve the problems. There are however a couple of companies who have working semi solid state technology (the electrolyte is more a gel).
perhaps semi-solid state is a better term than solid state ish.
from my perspective the reason NMC is so much more flammable (vs lfp) is due to the electrolyte being a (better) fuel source,
if this "solid state" uses a different electrolyte that isn't as flammable (more comparable to lfp), then we have a winner, but if you put a torch to it and it still goes up like gasoline, then not so much.
Some youtubers have done flammability tests on these "semi-solid state" batteries and they are just as flammable as normal LiPo batteries. They're a little harder to puncture all the way through, but it's trivial to puncture them enough to ignite. Also, they're just as susceptible to fire if there's an electronic fault in the unit. It's honestly a trend with Matt where he's been clearly relying more and more on outside sources for his information, and not doing actual research. He has been blindly parroting claims for at least year now without bothering to do a quick google search. I think this channel is no longer for me with the constant shilling for Tesla-like companies selling people on false dreams and empty promises. I love all the emerging tech, but I think I need to get my information elsewhere. These "semi-solid state" batteries have been on the market for a good year, and even in this podcast he's still defending the "safety" of these cells. LFP is the only current viable option for safe lithium batteries.
@@meikgeik LTO is by far the safest Lithium-Ion cell technology currently available on the market.
@@VinoVeritas_Technically true, but LFP is nearly as good and also nearly twice as energy dense as LTO, not to mention much cheaper, so it would still be correct to say that LFP is the only viable option in this use case (which requires energy density and cheap production)
@@meikgeikStrictly speaking the NMC cells most people refer to as "normal" lithium cells are good old fashioned lithium ion, LiPo cells are even more flammable than that and tend to be reserved for more niche use cases, with the most consumer facing ones being some drones (and an occasional cheap small battery bank). Both lithium ion NMC and LiPo cells can be packaged in pouch cells so they can look very similar from the outside and both use NMC chemistries so they're the same voltage, but the distinction is still important because LiPos are much more flammable and lower lifespan, but also more energy dense and far more power dense.
Nitpick aside, fully agreed on Matt's approach to fact checking. A defensive walk back on a second channel after selling a ton of people on the product and taking a cut with an affiliate link represents a careless and uncritical approach to accuracy that's unacceptable for a channel that's acting like a reputable information source
bigtb1717 took one apart and shot an individual cell with a broadhead tipped arrow, granted, he had to puncture the cell twice to get it to burn but it did burn. My takeaway is that everyone should treat something with such a high energy density with respect.
"SOLIS STATE" is an underdevelopment technology. For me, that suggests many different properties are being experimented with. And no formula has been finalized. No exact minimum or maximum is set as a successful example. I agree with the performs in these areas as appropriate for the current state of the solid state technology. In 10 ywars, or whatever, it may not qualify as solid state. What I would be buying today isn't the name, but the performance that surpasses the competition.
'Solid state' comes from the move from valves to doped semi-conductor transistors, diodes etc., doesn't it, so I think the term will always be misleading when describing batteries. 'Solid electrolyte' would work. 'Non-liquid electrolyte' would cover gels, solids, and mixtures of gels and solids.
I ofyen have to submit info to get MSDSs written, and rlthe "is a gel a solid or a liquid?" hits me in the feels. (Generally, gels are considered high viscosity liquid). Pastes, especially thin pastes have a similar quandry, though theybare usually considered soft solids.
Gels can also be described as colloids.
Oh, hotdogs are sandwiches.
Overall, i prefer the most accurate/precise descriptors. Words matter, regardless of what many linguists say. Ill let "ain't" slip by, but a kilogram is mass, and no amount of idiocy will make me accept it as anything else. And the kg-f (kilogram force; e.g., the weight equivalent of one kilo, is a kludge for the lazy and ignorant)
As for the product in question, if there is some liquid, id prefer a "semi-solid state battery" as a descrition.
But thats just me.
Yoshino power teardowns reveal non solid state batteries in their power stations
Based on teardowns and analysis, it appears that Yoshino Power’s portable power stations, including the B330 and B4000 models, utilize non-solid-state batteries, contradicting their marketing claims of employing solid-state technology.
Key Findings
Liquid Electrolyte: Teardowns reveal the presence of a liquid electrolyte, a characteristic of traditional lithium-ion batteries, rather than a solid-state electrolyte.
NCM (Nickel Cobalt Manganese) Formula: The battery chemistry used by Yoshino Power is identified as NCM, which is a common formula for lithium-ion batteries, not solid-state batteries.
Safety Concerns: While Yoshino Power’s marketing emphasizes the safety benefits of solid-state batteries, the use of liquid electrolytes and NCM chemistry may still pose safety risks, such as thermal runaway and fires, similar to traditional lithium-ion batteries.
9 minutes is faster than normal???
Matt making dad jokes makes him a faux pa.
Such a pauper joke
People are familiar and comfortable with the term 'hybrid ' and there's no reason not to call the battery a semi-solid hybrid. They should have trumpeted the safety advantages and weight instead. smh
I'm definitely skeptical about this particular product. Yoshino is just a brand as far as I can tell, and probably farms out all the manufacture of the power stations to China. Like many Chinese-made products, claims are fast and furious but not necessarily accurate and might even be made-up. That's why I want to know whos battery cells they are actually using... they certainly aren't making the cells themselves!
As far as I can tell they are a no-name lifestyle brand and everything else is hidden from view. I suspect they just plopped into automotive NMC (NCA) batteries and called it a day, which would be a regression in the power station market given that most power station makers abandoned NMC/NCA years ago.
There are a dozen+ power station brands out there now and most of them don't make the units themselves. And the reason I think Yoshino is one of these is that Yoshino basically lo-balled all the power electronics in most of their offerings to the point where it doesn't matter whether the battery inside is solid state or not... the power electronics are so poorly spec'd they can't take advantage of it either way. What do people think they are buying with such a poorly-spec'd product?
So Yoshino is basically selling a lemon, in my view. They are taking advantage of consumers not really knowing what they are buying. There's no point putting solid-state cells in their products other than for marketing purposes because the electronics can't actually exercise the features that solid-state batteries have.
People might not be aware of this, but essentially all power stations are limited by their power electronics and the wiring gauges they decide to build the systems with, and NOT the cells. LiFePO4 cells can tolerate very high charge and discharge rates. They barely even get warm at 1C and most cells on the market today can easily handle 2C (at nominal ambient temperatures). There are cells on the market that can handle 4C all day long. Power station capabilities are not a function of cell capabilities.
-Matt
Exactly, "words have meaning", say wgat you mean and mean what you say 👍
The difficulty in handing off accounts when you move is one reason I want to self-host all of my IoT crap with Home Assistant. (The main reason is I don't want my stuff remotely bricked.)
However, if I sell to somebody who is not a technophile, I may end up being their extended tech support.
My own Home Assistant instance has been down since I moved. Only being used for one device in a Rube-Goldberg fashion. If it was controlling important systems it is possible I would have put maintaining it at a higher priority.
i agree with you on watt hour per kg end weight. (dating myself) i remember when companies would add lead to boomboxes so the end user thought they had more because heavier is more stuff right
I want to know the weight of the unit. if it has swappable batteries then i want to know the weight of the swap batteries as well. if the unit weights 40 lbs and the extra batteries weigh 30lbs the total is 70 lbs for the power end use.
maybe you can fins a patterner channel who is a tear down or other thing and link there videos and they can link yours for end user experience
That is an example of Goodhart’s Law.
Same kind of applies to power supplies too: more filtering generally requires more weight.
But lead is cheaper than coils.
when you talk about other channels like here when you talked about one that tears down and checks in, it's good if you link to the channel you're talking about
I think myself somewhat tech savvy but to Sean’s message that he didn’t connect the dots as Matt thought we all should have known is true. I need to pay closer attention and be more a critical thinker or Matt can be an improved story teller. Great content!
Is there any official definition or broadly accepted industry standard of what a solid state battery is?
I would prefer amend and republish, over the video vanishing, and keeping the first with a second update video over that. keep the continuum of discovery going.
Guess I won’t ever buy anything from Enphase..
Why don't you two work on telling us about this battery here😂
I understand what you’re saying…but at the end of the day, when the power’s out, it doesn’t really matter if this unit is “truly” solid state as long as the benefits are there.
Unless you are paying a premium for what are really lithium ion batteries as another reviewer has found. They even matched the battery model number on the container. How can we trust any reviews when in the end the answer is it doesn’t matter how much you were cheated or you bought the thing for safety or to support the environment, this thing kind of works so you shouldn’t be disappointed.
Can't you ship the Yoshino from another destination, say China, to the UK? Holiday in the UK Matt? Though I think there's a 99Wh limit on devices by passenger airlines.
Matt and Sean, you have standing invitations to stop by my place for a delicious hot dog sandwich.
Maybe Will Prowse will do a breakdown on CZcams.
Matt, why don't you talk to Jordan Giesige and ask him for his contact that does his battery teardowns and analysis
Can’t trust him again if he thinks it’s ok to advertise solid state. His poor judgement and ability to rationalize that not solid state is solid state is unacceptable. What was the harm? Geez.
Huge fail by enphase there
Dude cold-faced explains he has no responsibility for pushing a scam company's dangerous product
not your fault..it's the manufacturer.we are all being scammed
Well, the main problem with your watt-hours/kg calculation wasn't the "whole pack" issue. The main problem was that you were comparing other power stations that had LiFePO4 battery chemistries with the Yoshino which has some sort of automotive NMC/NCM chemistry. There is a vast difference in energy density between those two chemistries, and thus weight, that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether something is solid state or not solid state.
When power stations first began getting popular they were mostly NMC based, very light-weight for their energy content, but people quickly realized that they were wearing out quickly and that the chemistry was neither safe nor robust enough for the use case. Most power station makers switched to LiFePO4 which has a lower energy density but is far, far more robust and longer-lasting.
Yes, what people call AI is not AI and no, you shouldn't call it AI. AI will literally be the equivalent of a human being with no body, and you will rapidly not be allowed to abused them because once they exist they will go from dog intelligence, to raven intelligence to true AI (human intelligence). But as a form of journalist you have an ethical responsibility to NOT be part of the problem and misuse terms just because other people do. Just because football commentators describe players we have film off as 'legendary' doesn't mean they aren't committing a crime against education and progress by doing so.
The AI one is easier though than the solid state battery thing. But there should be a definition, like there is now of planets, and it should be legally required to use the correct definition. It's going to be covered by regulation like being able to ship it on aeroplanes. Are you allowed to carry it in your luggage? The battery chemistry matters.
When you present a video it's easy for you to say, 'This is a battery with some solid state technology.' But you aren't in a position to make the determination of what counts as a solid state battery. That should be done by engineers and scientists in the field. To me, it sounds like hybrid battery is a good candidate if we're going to have manufacturers releasing batteries that are a bridge between 'old fashioned' batteries and 'solid state batteries' by combining aspects of both. But yes, there should be industry agreed terms. Imagine if AA and AAA batteries hadn't become the international standard? It would have been utter chaos, like all those countries who don't use the British standard plug and socket and adopted their own, utterly unsafe, low voltage, awkward to use standards with few or no safety features, no fuse, and terrible design? That would cost the planet lives and billions a year in pointless regional variances and make manufacturing a nightmare (it is, precisely for this reason).
Using language correctly is helpful and the more good examples we are set, the more likely we are to use it correctly ourselves, and the more rapidly and clearly we can understand each other. Which is why you should correct anyone who says 'Specific Ocean' (they mean Pacific but probably misheard it and no-one corrected them).
Take the video down now and once you've found out the truth, delete it.
It's a bit like Taco Bell saying that their tacos are 100% beef, and someone complaining that the meat filling has onions and seasoning and can't be 100%. If the liquid is a binder used to help manufacturing and supplies no Electrical use to the battery, then it is totally 100% a Solid State Battery. You'd have to select a liquid that was not an electrical insulator, so someone could be extremely pedantic and claim that it was "helping". Hogwash. Electrolyte has a function, if the liquid is not providing that function, then the Electrolyte is Solid. End of Story.
@@CorwinPatrick That's incorrect. A solid state battery uses a solid electrolyte. What you are describing is a semi-solid state battery where the electrolyte is a gel. They simply don't have the same advantages as a fully solid state battery. I wish we wouldn't call them solid state because that used to imply the difference between valves and semiconductors and it implies something like a capacitor which is truly a "solid state battery" - whereas what we want to call a solid state battery is still relying on a chemical reaction. Anyway it's just a name.
The idea of a lawsuit on such a basis sounds so terrible American
I'm glad I was listening to this one without any kids around. Something I've appreciated about your content is that I don't need to work about it being PG rated. Disappointed in you introducing swearing to the content at the 9:58 mark. Is that going to continue or a one time thing?