Why 3 Pieces Are Better Than A Queen?
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 7. 06. 2024
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About This Video:
In chess, minor pieces (knights and bishops) are worth 3 points. The queen is worth 9 points. One might conclude that 3 pieces should be equal to a queen. But it turns out in practice, that the 3 pieces will usually outperform the queen. In this video we look at an example game where you can see the power the 2 knights and bishop have over the lone queen. By protecting your pieces with pawns, the queen has a hard time making progress.
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Stockfish:
how do you only have like 1 comment
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"The good thing about losing a queen is that you dont have a queen to blunder anymore"
what if you blundered every other piece
@@havitar3950 then you need to blunder 3 times, not one. Its much better
Works irl
-Said Eric just before blundering a bishop
You can always promote a pawn to a queen and blunder it anyway đđ
3 pieces vs. queen basically means that every subsequent trade is a loss to the other side. Can't trade pieces one for one because there's no minor pieces left to trade away. In that sense, his every remaining major piece is basically an "undefended" piece because everybody will gladly take a rook with a knight, even though it's defended. Never thought of it that way before, but it makes a lot of sense.
I don't get what you are saying. Non native speaker here.
@@FlameTaxi what he's saying is that even if you attack my pawn with two rooks, I can still defend it with only one knight. Despite you having more attackers, I am still defending the pawn because if you take the pawn with the rook I can take your rook with my knight and win the exchange.
@@FlameTaxi Relax and drink Orange Juice, you might get it
In other words it means that you need to over trade opponent with 3 pieces by trade of rook for 2 minor pieces or queen for 2 rooks/4 m.p. to get advantage on the board and position, which is very very hard to do due to numerical superiority
What's interesting is that in an endgame with 4 minor pieces vs a queen, the side with the minor pieces can actually force checkmate, even with a whole queen there is no way to defend.
Great video. Not only saying it, but actually showing why.
The board coverage was also great. Never actually seen the board like that. It makes sense why positioning and piece coordination give such an advantage.
Maybe a Queen against 3 discoordinated pieces will be better.
In the hands of a master the coordination of the three pieces, to get maximum effect, is more likely!
on an open board it's very hard to maintain piece coordination, but in a middle game with pawns, it's very very hard for the queen to really use it's maneuverability
it's really depend on how big brain you are. I saw some Alpha Zero map which one pawn literally lock the whole left side of the board of the enemy
He even has those 3 pawns in the bottom left covered, which he didn't show! Seriously good coverage!
Added to that king safety is also equally important I feel, if our king is weak/exposed, this kind of a trade would obviously be catastrophic! The enemy queen can keep checking and at the right moment grab undefended pawns or pieces with some help from the enemy rooks.
In the game, white's king was completely safe, so it worked out well.
Thought I'm just a 1200 a do wanna mention for all the beginners* out there that in a Queen vs 3 pieces situation out on open board with an exposed king, it's usually better for the player with the Queen because of possible check for the Q that could pick up isolated pawns and pieces.
If you have a material advantage you are supposed to consolidate and keep control of the game. If your king is exposed and you have all kinds of loose and uncoordinated pieces, that gives compensation for a material disadvantage, sure. But such a situation would give your opponent a positional advantage regardless of the material match-up. If your opponent also has an open king and loose pawns left and right your three pieces should have just as many opportunities for forks and tactics as the queen. You might as well say that a rook is better than three minor pieces if the guy with three minor pieces hangs backrank mate.
Thanks for the comment, Jon. You're right it can be tricky against a queen for weaker players but as long as they keep the pieces protected, it will be hard for the queen to do anything. But it's a good point to be aware of, thanks!
i agree the queen can always fork the king and isolated pieces
but in closed positions the queen is not too active
Yes, if they are beginner for sure because they donât know how to defend or attack properly
@@ChessVibesOfficial Yeah, but if there are very little pawns left, then the task of defending your pieces gets even harder.
The graphic with the squares lit up, really drives the point home. Great video đ
*Note that you can always sacrifice a King with 2 Minor Pieces to help your position to be better.*
If you sacrifice the king it will give you a huge advantage because you can no longer be mated. I find that most people forget about that and try to keep their king on the board.
@@Makron5 *Anything for Family.*
This đ
LMAO
I wish my brain just did that square light up thing, maybe thatâs how GMâs see the board.
No they don't actively think about that, at least most of them. Strong players just know how they move fast enough and that isn't really even an issue. Seeing them lit up is just too slow.
@@moatef1886 agreed. Cuz many moves are a-priori useless and shouldnât really be considered aka wasted energy. Rather think about the most likely moves, but deep enough to win the fight
I think their subconsciousness does the job here
@@moatef1886 they don't literally light up in your head. But stronger players will always have a very clear idea of what squares are controlled and defended and which ones are weak without having to count the pieces and check which squares they attack with which piece.
How do people not understand itâs just a joke
Remember this, in an endgame, Queens are monsters and you have to play cautiously because if those knights are far away, you best know you ain't seeing them again if you are a beginner or even intermediate player, but in middlegames they are usually better if your king is safe and they will harass the queen, you can draw three minor pieces vs queen, but remember this, they have to protect each other and the king so you have to know your endgame,
Queen in endgame absolutely overpower LoL
Yeah, I think if there are enough pawns/other pieces to shield/defend the minor pieces, the minor pieces can easily work together, but in the endgame, the queen usually can fork some minor pieces, so the queen is definitely better in most endgames. Depends on the situation. Though, from what I see, 3 pieces for a queen is quite an uncommon trade to occur, and usually only occurs after one side sacrifices one or two minor pieces, and the other has to give back their queen to defend.
two bishops in the centre of the board in an endgame scenario can easily outperform a queen, having a knight in addition tips the odds against the side with the queen. The queen's ability to fork isn't really a problem if you just..don't move your king or pieces to positions where they can get forked ie. you aren't a noob
Open games in general queen will overpower. If your pieces wander off on the edge, they are gone. If your king is open, your pieces are gone. If yur pawn structure is bad (Isolated or backwards pawns), they are gone. So many threats and with perfect play on both side, best the side with the minor pieces can get is a draw.
If itâs a middle game though, 3 pieces will absolutely dominate. Best the side with the queen can do is try to open the position with pawn breaks, otherwise all you have to do is centralize your pieces and, like we saw here, you control almost the entire board with constant fork and pin threats.
@@potatoboy549 'with perfect play on both side, best the side with the minor pieces can get is a draw' - you're talking shit, this is not based on any analysis at all
I remember that one game where Vishy gave 3 pieces for the queen and was able to win, I didn't realise how non-standard and innovative that idea was until I saw this video.
Yes, that was world rapid championship match against peter leko!!
@@rutvijtole9264 It's LĂ©kĂł PĂ©ter! English alphabet đ€ź
@@ratioripbozo They wrote it as well as they could without having to waste time to place those special characters, and honestly english is way better, and the reason is the EXACT SAME ONE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
You don't have to be bothering to put multiple of these special characters, which is way easier and comfortable for people using keyboards.
Also no, I'm not saying this cuz it's the language I was born with or smth like that, my native language is actually spanish and it does use a lot of these special characters, which I HATE.
@@julimos7301 Boohoo. Salty has arrived
@@ratioripbozo "Salty" I was just defending Rutvij Tole, since they did nothing wrong and you were the one being actually a bit ew ngl.
Come back when u have an actual argument Ig? Lets just end it here, before anyone of us starts getting toxic, and you come up with your little insults, bye.
5:17
The Knight e7 fork is avaliable, and yet so white plays another move
@@_AlQuran1 diffrent knight
computer likes it but maybe nelson missed it or thought there was some threat
this is his response btw : 'It does look pretty good. It would be a little tricky after Ra8, Nxf5, Ra1+, Kd2, but I think you're right, still probably good for me. I missed it completely in the game though in time pressure!'
@@_AlQuran1 ahh you are one more person to give false information
Got reminded of this video while seeing recent Carlsen-Giri match. Former sacrificed queen for 3 pieces in move 8 and won.
5:17
You already had a fork opportunity here.
Thanks for sharing.
Really enjoyed this video, easier to follow as slightly less intensely paced than some of your others, and illustrated by a real-world game example that demonstrated the concept very well. Thank you.
Awesome vid. Explained concept in a short and easy to remember way. Showed exactly why itâs useful
Id be SUPER interested if you continued this match from the point which you traded your queen off vs a GM. I would like to see what a GM would do vs a strong player such as yourself in this situation.
Awesomely enough if anyones curious, Magnus just played a game where this situation came up!! Heres the vid via Agadmator: czcams.com/video/T5I_fB-wNPA/video.html&ab_channel=agadmator%27sChessChannel
You can try this against engine from that point on
GM would have easily won. After the trade, both white and black look about the same. Sure it's 3 pieces vs a queen but black has an extra pawn too. The problem is that black directly blundered with that b5-b4 move.
Your videos are so helpful. Thanks for sharing all the tips and tricks!
Great video from you Chess Vibes, your videos are very informational and help me with my chess. Was introduced to you through the Chess Rating Climb video series, and have been watching ever since. Thank you.
Thanks a lot, glad you're learning!
the visualization you did at 4:15 was super interesting!!
Thats really good example, I'm a begginer and I was wondering about this. Thank you!
Great demonstration of this kind of situation and how to deal with it, thanks.
You did a really nice job - thanks - much appreciated!
Hi Iâm new to chess, thanks for the amazing videos! Is Ne7 at 5:13 not a good fork?
Looks pretty good to me! He could have done it at 5:17 as well but I think he was running low on time and didn't quite see it.
It does look pretty good. It would be a little tricky after Ra8, Nxf5, Ra1+, Kd2, but I think you're right, still probably good for me. I missed it completely in the game though in time pressure!
@@ChessVibesOfficial knight on f5 still protects your bishop so he cannot checkmate by taking the bishop with his queen after Kd2, though he could fork your knight and you bishop with qf3 but that would be a good trade for you a minor peace for a rook
If following the logic of nominal piece values, then bishops have been shown to be worth slightly more than 3 points (around 3.15 to 3.5 or so). And since 3 minor pieces will necessarily involve at least one bishop, together they will add up to slightly more than 9.
3 minor pieces are better than a queen as long as you know how to properly coordinate them. It would be easier for a weaker player to maneuver with only a queen.
A weaker player's goal is to get better, though. If you'd rather have a queen, you'll never get better in this scenario.
@@DudeWatIsThis Every player's goal is to get better. If a weaker player is looking to win then they may want to have a queen instead.
@@nerpe9946 not true to be fair. Most player's goal is just to relax and have fun
@@olegtrophymenko7037 Yeah I do agree but the same applies to weaker players. I just didn't feel the comment I replied too was all that correct!
Stellar video! Very very informative. My only editing complaint is that the intro and outro music was quite loud compared to the rest of the video. Otherwise, extremely well done!
4:06 was a brilliant move, both attacking black's queen and protecting the king. But after that, at 5:18, I guess you couldn't see the Ne7 where you fork the rooks. Or maybe pushing your pawn seemed a bit more advantageous, I don't know. But if you think Ne7 was unnecessary, why?
Good video with explanations. Thank you
I think the key things that got you a win instead of a draw was the material count before making the trade. If there are less pawns playing for a win gets a lot harder as there often are scenarios where your opponent can just sack the queen in a way that leaves you with two knights and any type of forward and aggressive piece moves get a lot more dangerous on a open board so you might almost be forced to set up a fortress to not risk loosing.
One of the best chess vids so far on yt!
Very instructive!
Wow.. great video and explanation. Thanks
Great example
Thanks, Bob!
Three pieces can coordinate with each other. A single queen attacking three pieces can't do anything if multiple pieces are both defending each other and attacking at the same time. It'd just be more efficient to have multiple pieces doing many things instead of just having a single piece running around trying not to get caught while attacking.
If it was three knights, then I'd favor the Queen.
Just had this odd game right after seeing this, where I had two bishops and six pawns against a rook, a queen and three pawns. Mine were connected in two lumps of three but all his were isolated. A bit odd, but I won. He couldn't take anything without losing a rook or a queen vs a pawn, a bishop or one of each.
I mean if we count the materials he was basically up a rook so he shouldnt have lost that even against a solid structure of pawns, he couldve tried to make mate threats with this heavy pieces and that way he could force you to either sacrifice a piece, distract a piece to break your pawn chain and start gobbling up the pawns, or just zugswang you and start pushing his pawns to either make a new queen or break the pawn chains. Still good job to you for defending that position.
Kind of irrelevant if you can't mention your elo
@@lightman9935 according to the engine analysis i was at one point ahead more than 8 pawns.
@@lightman9935 I guess that towards the endgame, passed pawns increase a lot in value if your opponent has nothing to sac to them. Anyhow I just wanted to share it because it was a fun coincidence.
@@igorz4582 No, it's not irrelevant. wtf does his elo have to do with anything. Stop gatekeeping.
I'd like to add that if you find yourself in the position where you have the queen against 3 pieces, the best way to play it is to try to open up the position as much as possible. There are no absolutes in chess, but most of the time you will be looking for a draw rather than a win, so always check if you can make a perpetual check which is often possible if your opponent is not carefull. Sometimes you can even sacrifice a rook or even two to get a perpetual.
Opening up the position also makes the opponent's king more vulnerable, which makes it easier to win a piece back or create counterplay.
I love your content I hope you blow up. Very instructive and concise!
This is definitely true for more experienced players. Beginner/intermediate players might have trouble coordinating the pieces to get the most out of them.
But newer players have a higher chance to blunder a queen
@@toowiggly yea but if you are at the level where you frequently blunder a queen, thereâs no way youâre gonna be able to coordinate 2 knights and a bishop to win the game.
@@animaniacs538 That's assuming the only pieces you have are those pieces. Usually you have a rook or something to help with the checkmates. Even if you just have two knights and a bishop and the other side has nothing, you don't have much opportunity to blunder them or a queen, so what I said isn't applicable to that.
a very nice example , actually showing how the 3 pieces covering the whole board and how all of them are targeting that queen while the queen cant target anyone of them cuz its a very important piece , *Thanks :D*
Nice videos bro, love your content :D
Appreciate it!
Love the board coverage analysis.
I remember in my first year of OTB chess, i was 1500 or so and had to play someone 2000+.
I was doing quite well in the opening an early middlegame, I felt like there had to be something in the position, but i couldn't manage and eventually a lot of trades happenened and i got crushed in the endgame.
Computer analysis later turned out that there was indeed something, I could give the queen for 3 pieces and have a significant advantage.
Me and my opponent both didn't even consider it.
You are absolutely one of the best chess teachers ever!!!!!
Man this video came into my reccomended right on time! In one of my daily games there is currently a possible line where I can get 3 pieces for a queen, all I have to do is wait for my opponent's move and see if it's possible.
Legendary name and profile pic
Best example possible.. thanx
This is one of the best explanations of the advantages three minor pieces can have over a queen I've seen.
Really solid work.
Great game, great advice!
Man that was awesome thanks
One thing someone notices at the sub 1200 level is that people that play the Italian always go for the bishop+knight battery at the f7 pawn, after black has successfuly castled, they still go for the exchange of bishop+knight for rook+pawn, which is catastrophic for white because 2 minor pieces are almsot always better than a rook with a pawn, in the endgame the pawn becomes a liability and the rook has to watch over it, while the minor pieces attack both of them.
Super inciteful stuff!
I love watching the 3 pieces for a Queen trade videos. Wish there were more of them
Very nice to see the concept demonstrated with a concrete example rather than someone just speaking in conceptual terms. Thanks Nelson.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks, this Will help me
Great video, never noticed that. Anyway when you showed the coverage of the board (which is very interesting point), after he continued with queen one square, you could have easily fork his rooks with knight.... Why didnt you do that? Is that something hidden or you just havent noticed that?
5:16 You missed a rook fork with the knight. u couldve moved ur knight to E7 which wins 2 material. thats why the eval bar dropped a few points and the pawn move was probably marked as a missed win.
Could you please do a video on R+R vs 3 minor pieces next?
5:15 you missed Ne7 :D
thanks for the video
i learned so much!!! just one question i'm 1200 in chess and not really understanding too much but why on minute 5:17 you did not fork the rooks? with Ne7? just asking the explanation, i want to learn more, thanks. P.S sorry for bad english
Yeah, in the one comment, he said, he missed it
Did you have a fork with Ne7 at 5:18? Or am I missing something?
Today , I learned a news thing in Chess, Thank you very much, Sir, đ
I was wondering if the Ne7 fork does works at 5:16... could someone tell me ? (After ... Qf3)
At 5:15 after the Queen move, do you miss a fork on the rooks or there something else Iâve not seen there?
At 5:17 isn't Ne7 a viable fork too?
I wold have liked to hear some general rules how the sides should play. Who wants to trade pawns in this situation? Who wants to trade pieces? Who wants to open up the position, who wants to close it? Stuff like that would be quite helpful
The dude with the small pieces wants the endgame. Its a bit hard to play, but in the endgame its winning for the 3 pieces bc your pawns can promote since you got more control of squares. Dude with the queen wants to infiltrate and pick off weak pieces or pawns.
you played a great end game. Rarely someone under 1900 would have won that game. Your position was already good for the trade, and amazing end game.
Love the 2s intro, ty
The most entertaining kind of position for me. I love having multiple little pieces against one big piece (such as bishop and knight vs rook) and slowly strangling my opponent.
Cool tutorial!
5:16 knight E7 wouldâve been a beautiful fork
Positioning is also very important when it comes to whether or not you would value the three pieces over your pawn. If you can take 3 developed pieces in a similar exchange that would be huge
I know this video is a year old but I had a similar situation where I got 2 pieces and a rook against a queen and they just couldnât get any counterplay. This helped me understand that piece coordination is key. Can you make a video about 2 rooks vs queen?
good coordination between you pieces.
Next video try same position vs Stockfish after you do the trades will be fun to try.
I will definitely try this when I get the chance
5:17 ...did he miss the rook fork by the knight?
Yeah you are right that was missed! Although its a little tricky after Ra8 with Ra1+ ideas but still looks better for white
at 5:16 why did you not play Ne7 forking the rooks?
That explains alot
quick question, iâm only at 850, but is at 5:15 Ne7 a good move? I thought of taking the rooks. It surprised me that it wasnât used. :)
looks like the strongest move to me, can't see any reason not to play it. Must have just been the time pressure. I believe black's next move moving the rook back to f8 was b/c he saw white could play Ne7 and fork the two rooks (disclaimer: am 'only' 1700)
never thought about this ooo
fantastic example, line that really sold it for me was how if you keep attacking the queen, she has to keep moving cuz thats the whole gameplan, while you can lose pieces of your "gameplan" and still be in a good spot w trades
At 5:17, is E7 not a better move in stead of B4?
I always feel like Iâm loosing after I trade my rook for a night and bishop but ig not
Yeah usually 2 pieces are better than the rook
When it comes to the 3 pieces, is the dark squared bishop always best option, or can I go light squared bishop and two knights'?
just found your channel and am interested in more
Welcome aboard!
am i missing something? at minute 5:17 in the video...instead of moving the pawn to B4, wouldnt KD-E7 be better? you attack both of his rooks
I won a game once where my opponent had a queen and I had three minor pieces and a rook. Rook stated with king for safety. While minor pieces harassed queen relentlessly. I had pawns to support em too and eventually I captured it
Could you fork the rooks by Ne7 at 2:18?
You had a chance to fork the rooks by your knight. Is there a combo by black after the fork that I am missing?
Correct me if I'm wrong but with perfect play on pawnless endgames, a queen vs 3 minor pieces is usually a draw except in rare scenarios like all the pieces being bishops of the same color.
5:17 there is knight e7 fork why he didnt take it? my elo is only 1100 on lichess so please explain me
5:18 shouldnt knight e7 be played?
Depends how well co-ordinated the three pieces are, and how well protected the king is. This is a good example where the answer to both is "very well", but if the pieces are far apart and difficult to defend, the queen can easily fork them, or one of them and the king. And even if the position is otherwise better for the side with the three pieces, if the king is exposed then the queen might still be able to force perpetual check.
at 5:17 why did you not go for knight e7 to fork both rooks and connect your own rooks?
The thing about assigning values to the pieces is that it's a general guild not a thing set in stone or written into the laws of the universe. In some situations the knight is more valuable than the bishop, in others the bishop is more valuable. Depending on the situation, a pawn can be more valuable than a queen. The only piece whose value is set and never changes is the king.
But a brilliant display, drove the point home there without question.
At 5:17, would Ne7 not be a good move?
Wasn't at 5:17 Knight to e7 a good move, forking both towers?
Another interesting scenario is BBNN vs QR!
That also extends for other values in my experience.
Like... most of the time a piece and two pawns is better than a rook, or two pieces are better than a rook and a pawn. Also three pawns are better than a piece.
wow esti cel mai tare. tot respectul!