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DYNO tune vs STREET tune
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- čas přidán 5. 04. 2022
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You guys should also take a look into safety wiring schemes used in aircraft. The bolt heads or shafts are cross drilled and the nuts to constrain them with wire on one side, and the nuts can be castellated to prevent rotation of all components. The real magic of safety wire steps in when you wire two bolts together, as they are wired in such a way that if one bolt tries to back out it will cause another bolt to tighten. Nordlock washers are great too but safety wire essentially guarantees stuff can not come out.
Yeah, nuts in safety will ensure they'll never come off. Also not sure if they know this, but with that crows foot, they need to re calculate their torque as the extra inch extension will change the overall torque value of the wrench. Equations is as follows TW = TA x L / L + A
TA = torque applied to the end of the adaptor
L = is length between middle of handle and the socket
A = length of adaptor
Your assumption is incorrect.
The function of safety wire, is to retain a failed part, in effect reducing potential hazards.
@@cheerdiver Not entirely.. safetying Is the process of securing all aircraft bolts, nuts, screws, pins and other fasteners so that they do
not work loose due to vibration. If you safety two fasteners together with the first wire going clockwise (tightening) and the second counter clockwise, they will always counter each other. Yes it doesn't prevent total failure but when done right with the right orientation and twists per inch you shouldn't have any issues with fasteners becoming loose.
They also use safety wiring in many auto racing applications too. This is definitely something rob should take a look at
@@Danielism we run our torque wrenches to 90° to avoid the torque calculation. But the way Rob did it would need a recalculation
Fun fact, 9% of the posts on this video (currently) is telling you to use a 90 degree angle on the torque wrench when doing whatever you did (are going to do, as I'm not even there yet in the video). Also, you should build a downpipe with bigger size than the exhaust flange on the turbo according to 2% of the comments.
My personal advice to you is to start using oil for rotaries instead of oil for cars with valves and to lock up your turbos at night, as your fabricator seemingly likes to nut in them.
Just FYI, you SHOULD put the crows foot on 90* angle to the torque wrench as to not add any leverage length to the wrench and affect the torque value.
They're using a click type wrench, the difference in length does not matter, lmao.
@@TheMailmanOfSteel Yes it does.
@@TheMailmanOfSteel well I've been doing wrong for 32 years then. 😆 obviously all the tmji trainers are as well. Fool
@@Oskariii lmao some of these youtube comments have nothing to do but mislead.
@@TheMailmanOfSteel The click type is still calibrated to a particular lever length, which is the length from the handle to the ratchet end. The crows foot adds that length, changing the torque value.
The most important thing with street tunes is knowing when to stop - if you just keep chasing the weak link you end up with an unstreetable racecar engine every time 🤣
Exactly. I think the current setup with an even smaller twin-scroll exhaust housing should be able to get them an engine with way more low-end torque than rotaries typically manage and hopefully it won't flow restrict when they get up to 8.5-9k RPM. I think at this point in the engine development, they're at a really good spot to leave it, at least when it comes to turbo designs. Injectors and fuel pumps might need to be tweaked as they retune the ECU based on the new turbo exhaust housing, but it's really getting to a great spot for it to be driven regularly. And that's really the hard part. Accepting that your car is, for all extents and purposes, done and you should refrain from tinkering with it and just enjoy it.
was LITERALLY just looking for something to watch and get a notification, thanks for the great timing :)
As opposed to figuratively?
Same
always nice when it works out that way ;¬)
you're talking about Dome Control and yes its annoying but more accurate.
map target is way nicer and easier to understand
you may be able to change it to MAP target
When using any extension (eg. crows feet) it should always be 90 degrees to ´the side ( Γ ), instead of on the same axis ( | ) because that will allow a higher torque to be applied at the bolt.
He's using a click type torque wrench, the difference doesn't matter.
I was wondering if someone beat me too this comment, i work in aviation and you use crows feet alot and yes you have to use it at a 90 degree so you dont add leverage
@@TheMailmanOfSteel Leverage is leverage. If you use the crows foot straight, you're increasing the distance between the nut and the end of the handle, and a longer lever makes it easier to turn. So you end up putting more torque on the nut for the same amount of pressure on the handle. By rotating it to 90 degrees sideways, the distance from the end of the handle to the pivot only changes by a very small amount.
@@that5what5he5aid As a fellow ame i use the formula with it straight. takes 2 sec
@@slickman5969 AME or AnP?
Rob, a good PID baseline is to think of your P gain as how much you want the output changed 1:1. Then the Integral gain is set to around 3 orders of magnitude less than the P gain value. You can set the derivative gain to zero to start as tuning all 3 at once can cause a lot of chasing your tail. If the boost overshoots on the first peak, your P is too high, so set it lower. If it takes too long to get to the boost then P is too low. Once you get that first peak correct to not overshoot and still reach target, you tweak the interval gain. If you see oscillations over time, you integral gain is too high causing it to over correct. 90% of the time the derivative gain can be left at zero and a PI controller works fairly well for most applications.
Yeah... Not sure why he didn't just zero it out and go from there haha. Starting with crazy values leads to crazy results
Also if he did Generic duty on the Fueltech it would be open loop.
You also have to factor In Your wastegate spring also. I don’t think it’s a fair assessment of the product because all ecu manufacturers does this the same way imo.
@@arjayhenry1031 Even holley does it the same way, I think it makes a semi accurate base configuration though
@@motoweenies4431 I have tune many different ecus and it the same way. Holley, Fueltech,haltech,motec,
Even leash electronics boost controller does it the same way.
@@arjayhenry1031 100% . If you can't deal with PID boost control, step away from the laptop
Ultimate flex - Rob DRIVING his car to DYNO ...
As a subscriber to HP Academy and Evans performance Academy, I learned a ton more about tuning from EPA over HPA. One of the best things Jeff does is walk you through every function of your ECU and explain to you what it does and how it works. EPA is my go-to when I need information on a specific topic, like Closed loop PID controls. Its absolutely worth a temp subscription to try it out.
Invite Brent from PFI Speed to come by and help wrestle the Fueltech boostcontrol issue. He loves those things, and should be able to work stuff out!
@Clownskull; @Rob Dahm;
Better yet, still ... Call, contact and communicate with Anderson Dick and his team at Fuel Tech directly. Visit them and learn more as Brent did with Kyle. 😄
@Clownskull; @Rob Dahm;
Better yet, still ... Call, contact and communicate with Anderson Dick and his team at Fuel Tech directly. Visit them and learn more as Brent did with Kyle. 😄
You actually want to use the crows foot at a 90 degree angle to the wrench, otherwise you are essentially lengthening the wrench which affects torque. Using it at a 90 maintains a much closer total length, and keeps you more accurate.
Not for a click-type wrench. The difference does not matter.
@@TheMailmanOfSteel said by a man who knows not how torque works
The difference is negligible though, no? And considering he wanted to slightly over torque the nuts, having it straight isn’t as big of a deal as all the comments are making it.
@@joshuafleckenstein351 it makes a difference, whether or not it’s negligible depends on the type of work you are doing. In this case it worked out okay for what he wanted, but it’s best that the information out there is correct.
@@matte4429 I absolutely agree, it definitely depends on what type of work. Given how many people are commenting on it, it’s a little unnecessary considering he was just tightening flange bolts
Hey Rob,
There is a software update from Fueltech that is supposed to fix the boost pressure fluctuations
it has nothing to do with that.
the entire issue is that it’s completely the wrong turbo for the application, even the smallest 0.83 AR turbine housing on this turbo has more flow capability than a 600 whp 13B requires. At the present 350 whp output it’s so grossly oversized that it’s never going to be controlled properly with two WGs.
it’s a bit sad really; so much resources, yet so little understanding of the basics.
.
@NobodySpecial rob is a jack of many trades, but a master of none. He knows that and most of us know that too.
@@nobodyspecial5026 you didn't watch the whole video and your comment shows it.
Yes, I did watch it to the end. He admits it’s the wrong everything including turbo, but he never came around to stating anything about the boost control issue being because of that. He left it as just the software and a lack of understanding on how it works.
So 350 whp is 46.5 lb/min compressor flow on a rotary and it was 21 lbs of boost (~2.45 PR), but the kicker is the IAT is over 200°F(!!!). There’s nothing efficient going on here.
The *reasons* for choosing the G40 was wrong from the very beginning and that was never actually addressed. Nor was it stated that it was the reason for the boost control issue. Again, it has two WGs coupled with a turbine that is operating way below it’s appropriate flow energy level.
It’s like having flow control valves on a 20” water pipe that only has a trickle running through it. There’s no way to control flow in that situation. It’s pretty much either on or off. All the PID knowledge and understanding in the world is not going to help. .
what a sexy car. never seen one of those in person before. at least we germans had the 944 for that kinda look
Anderson from Fueltech probably will listen to your ideas about that, love to see your car on their Dyno
Additionally the torque wrench and crows foot should be done at a 90° angle unless using an equation to correct it. Sincerely an aircraft mechanic.
hello fellow ame. I work on mu2-b-60 and they fucking suck!
For something like this the difference is gonna be completely negligible, in fact he said earlier in the video that he wanted the torque spec a little higher than what was listed on the website.
NGL seeing the FC on this channel, it has grown on me. It's a really cool car.
You "could" machine a flame ring to insert betwixt the 4 bolt flange. I know if some certain small displacement drag applications we had to do that because no gasket was safe....
One day I fully believe that Rob will get a Dyno fitted in the shop somewhere.
Any time Rob gains knowledge, his arms get bigger.
💪💪
This is cool
Can't wait for the 4 rotor dyno session :)
All drone racers have to learn PID control tuning and it is one of the biggest barriers to entry for that hobby. Learning how to tune a PID loop is just black magic, no better way to explain it. There are many things using a PID loop where you have to just learn it to get the balance right if you step outside the box. I struggle with it myself, I understand it just enough to get frustrated. I understand the theories, but struggle to tune a drone with a fresh PID tune. You might take a look into the history of PID loops, it helped me understand how they function. PID loops were first used for stabilizing ship rudders with mechanical systems in the 1800s. For that matter if you know any drone racers they might be able to help you understand PID tuning theories.
up
May I throw in two cent:
Proportional: an X,Y flat line or LINEAR function
Intergral: Total aggregate area under a function, Function two minus function one.
Differential: Financial DERIVATIVES, the compound function of acceleration. 32ft/sec^2 is the Derivative of gravity, 9.8 M/sec^2 aka Exponential. Can also mean to counter , a real time correction factor, differential rear axle.
These are how math functions are visually represented in a Cartesian Coordinate System.
I do PID for a living and it really just comes down to understanding the math behind it and using intuition to modify the K values to get the desired outcome
I may be wrong, but Holley also uses PID to control their wastegates. I think the main difference is its easier to make a base configuration.
With all due respect, PID controller tuning is not black magic, there are strict processes and rules to follow. It takes a while to get your head around, but with the correct data collection techniques and analytics tools it can be a pretty smooth experience.
Rob I recommend you try to make a larger downpipe for all the cars. Ive seen tons of gains on spool and power from having a larger diameter downpipe than the exit of the turbo. Stav-tech even had dyno testing and it shows a significant gain
That does look like a tiny ass downpipe
That’s for the wastegates
I was about to mention the stav tech research lol. Basically the bigger the downpipe the better because it makes a bigger pressure differential and it will also slow down exhaust speed which will make the car quieter 👍
11:35 For a quick second I thought, “Wow! When did Rob lose a finger?!?!” Lol
I read this while I watched it, crazy man
I can see Brent and Rob totally geeky out together soon
I love that Rob always gives feedback to the companies that sponsor/help him. He doesn't just suck them off for free shit. Because Rob understands that not all of us are him and would never figure out about the waste gate tuning.
I figure about 97% of your viewers can’t or don’t appreciate your attention to the electrical draw various components put on the electrical system of each of your builds. I love your attention to detail and even though it most likely goes over the heads of 97% of people watching for those of us that understand and actually get it this channel is so fucking helpful and valuable it’s crazy.
Wow! Beautiful sequence of the downpipe welding, well done
You're totally off on the crows feet. Set them to 90° of the torque wrench to keep them from changing the torque. If you have them going straight off the front it'll increase the torque applied to the nut. In this instance that might be good because you also didn't do anything with the run on torque of the lock nuts
or you can just use the formula with it straight
@@slickman5969 if you have the room why fuck with math when you can just set to 90
Came to say this
Today, April 6 2022, Rob Dahm first learned about LEDs low power consumption. Welcome to 2010, Rob.
little things like showing us the difference in draw between headlights is why Rob is absolutely GOAT’d
Nordlock works extremely well. I’ve used nordlocks to keep suppressors on firearms that see extreme heat/cool cycles.
I had good luck with nord lock washers on my turbo eclipse exhaust that I would have to check on like a weekly basis. Installed nord lock never had to mess with again.
Sick headlights for the FC Rob looks proper! The shining in the eyes is a killer lol we all have done it!
Don't for get to get new Apex seals for the FC a few of them were broken. I'm shocked they are still in there. Love the channel.
Finally you listened and got nordlocks! :D
Also, when using crow feet you should have it pointing in a 90 degree angle to the head of the torque wrench. If you have it straight forward you apply more torque than what you have set the wrench to.
Cool to see you guys using nord lock washers. I've only seen those on a few things on the caster wheels of a crown end rider jack. They never come loose during use lol.
She both sounds and looks amazing. So much usable power, it'll be a hoot on track!
There has to be a way to fit a thicker IC with bigger inlet and outlet in the same location.
And maybe some hidden water/methanol injection to keep intake temps down.
My favorite times of the week are Robs uploads can’t wait to see the 4 rotor and 3 rotor in whatever races you did
I agree with Rob on Fuel Tech and that's also the reason why I went with Haltech. It's no use to have a great piece of hardware, but no documentation to go along with it to call it a good product. Documentation goes a long way with any technical product.
this is not the dyno we've been waiting for but I love all the knowledge i am able to learn from your videos with the way you explain things.
Starting to love the edits y’all make man. Give me hella motivation
Love your videos. Quick comment on the PID tuning coming from a Controls Engineer. The problem is that Fueltech can't provide default gains for that particular system, because systems can vary extremely widely. From 3 ports to 4 ports to CO2 dual solenoids it's hard. Then, add to that, you may have a quick responding turbo or slow responding turbo. The gains will be very different for all those cases.
I agree the "wastegate pressure" is stupid.
All you can really do is just try different gains until you figure it out. Unfortunately it is hard to tune using traditional controls methods because it's an engine and it can be difficult to get it to chill when the conditions are changing so rapidly. Keep making awesome videos!
Rob, you have learned so much on this channel and you've taught so many people so much. I know you can conquer the PID controls.
Rob you should be putting a MLS (Multi layer steel) gasket for your T4 flange, you’ll never have a problem of it blowing out again.
P.S. I absolutely LOVE your "SAVE FERRIS '86" T-Shirt!
Where did you get that sweet peice of SWAG?
I cracked a rear iron after a week on the stock TMIC and a hybrid turbo. 93 octane and 180*F intake temps while learning how to tune are NOT a good combo! You guys made some really good power here.
Keep sharing this info with everyone, we are humble to have this channel with such details to specs🤟
I run a Stock TII intake manifold and throttle body on my TII 13b, 2.5in Intercooler piping on the cold side and still net 700hp @28psi on a very tired engine, they flow very well.
Explaining his Garrett turbo set up, next to his Pittsburgh jack stands this is quality content!
great job Rob!
pretty sure it goes the other way around with the crows feet. if you have it at 90° compared to the torque wrench the torque is the same but if its not at 90° it starts to get funky
Yup, makes the wrench have a longer fulcrum and skews the torque reading.
I get they are not exactly lightweight, but this car would look gorgeous with some gold BBS wheels😍
Good work guys!
We are using the nordlock washers on newly manufactured freight wagons, where the vibrations are extreme sometimes and they work perfectly.
Loving the videos! My engine Dyno cell is nearing completion and hope to release some videos sharing knowledge and our journey developing parts for various engines focusing on unknown cheap to buy and very capable engines and some videos on how to create a hybrid powertrain. Tip on boost control mapping.. If you have a pre-control map for boost control set this to around 25% below your boost target then allow the PID control to control up to your actual target boost level.
Omg finally something to watch! .. was getting bored at work thanks rob!
Who doesn’t love that dual N1 exhaust sound? 👍🏽
Dome pressure is how a lot of systems handle boost control. Holley, FuelTech, Megasquirt, all use it. I am not sure about Haltech or AEM.
🤣🤣 love the shirt Rob, 'SAVE FERRIS' 🤣🤣 I remember watching that movie at the drive in movie theatre of a town we were visiting on a family holiday in 1986.. good times 😉
The LED retrofit light kit is really nice!
I love this build great work guys
Thanks for uploading videos so consistently
Hey Rob, I come from Subaru land where there are a lot of top mount intercoolers and have you thought about an Intercooler spray, a lot of older special edition Subarus came with them (so they must have some value) and think this would be an excellent candidate for a spray system or at least to make an interesting experiment on the conductive/evaporative effects of water vs air.
Have you considered switching to a water to air intercooler and using the stock intercooler as the water to air cooler? You could even run another one remote if it cant keep up. That way it still has the look of the stock but its improved.
The problem with the stock intercooler is how flow restricted it is. He's better off just ditching the stock intercooler altogether and running something with enough core and inlet/exhaust flow to cope with the boost from that turbo.
@@mndlessdrwer true it is too small for the air volume of the engine and that's why my solution of running water through it instead would work because they can size the appropriate size of water to air cooler for the volume of air. The stock intercooler would just become the radiator for the water to air intercooler.
We tried using those nordlock washers at my R&D shop, a bit bigger though, they were for 1-3/4" studs and didn't have good luck with them. We also had them in a seawater environment which probably didn't help. I hope they work for you!
Props to the editor for the golden girls music while rob was tightening the bolts on the turbo hahahaahhahhahaha
Hey rob something I learned in a&p school regarding the crows feet is if you have it straight like you did in the video it will change the torque applied, not by much but it will. If it’s a 90* angle like you had it for a second and you said it’d mess with your readings well it’s actually the opposite and that would have been the correct torque. “When the crows feet is at a 90* from the torque wrench head”
Dang I love the factory look of those headlights! Going to upgrade mine ASAP!
I have a lot of love for this channel, with that said. Please, can you stop coasting in neutral between shifts! It’s like watching a learner driver. ❤️
Ladies and gentlemen the moment we have all been waiting for for the millions watching around the world here we have a fresh video from Rob
@@onichanyi9214 Even the females are waiting for a new video from Rob, imagine!
wow that exhaust work is beautiful!! I didn't appreciate it until I worked on my crappy exhaust shop exhaust
Rob, when using crow's feet to torque, it should be done at a 90deg angle. I'm in the navy and in our instructions for torquing, it has special instructions for crow's feet torque. If it's straight, you're getting a higher torque. Anyways, love the videos and I'm learning a ton. Makes me almost want a rotory... Almost
At this point i think its fair to say that im addicted to your videos
I've been depressed all day dealing with a death, thanks for taking my mind off of it for even a few minutes.
Already missing the 4 rotor.
For the wastegate boost controller pressure, watch Dr Tune Em All's videos. He calls it Dome Pressure. He's explained that you can make a table that correlates between boost pressure and dome pressure. Once you get that figured out, it is awesome to just change boost pressures.
It's super exciting to see you using a twin-scroll turbo for this project, particularly one tuned for quick-spooling as it'll make this a much more daily-driving friendly vehicle, even if it has enough power to be truly terrifying to actually drive aggressively on the road. Glad to see this car getting more attention, since I love the stock+ look you went with on it. Now you just need to upgrade the sound system so you can blast some Eurobeat and practice drifting.
ILY Rob ❤️
This is more of a heavy equipment side of things but we do not use lock washers. We use grade 8 hard flat washers on everything. We have had the split lock washer crack then lose clamping pressure. We use hard flats with the sharp edge to the mating surface. Even on turbo flanges, exhaust manifolds and non heated but crucial points and we have yet to have one loosen or create a leak. We explicitly use cat bolts, washers, nuts and lock nuts on everything we do and have had zero issues. I know every situation is unique but an outside view never hurts.
that rotor sound is music to my ears
Lucky 7 inspected my 91 vert prior to my cross country trip back to MD. Car didn't skip a beat.
I love this car, you've got it looking and sounding so good
You can get extension arbors for the hole-saw bits so you can drill those out all the way
Goddahm! Right on time!✨✨✨✨
Rob needs a hub dyno. And the ultimate interfooler. Cut like 2 mm off a top mount and pop in an air to water and use that to make it look like it's still air to air.
If you look for PID tuning for drones you'll find some really detailed tutorials, I'm sure you can apply that to the boost control.
I've waited for an upload all week, 😥 I can relax now
I honestly almost enjoyed this more than the 4 rotor. I love all day every day rippers.
As a Chemical Engineer who does process control, PID loops are amazing if you can tune them. there are many methods, look up what the P, I and D terms do. You can literally "predict the response vs setpoint" as you "wanted" and control using that. Be very careful though to not get unstable behavior.
Nice job 👍
Have you a link for the headlights?
Looks like there's plenty of room for a proper intercooler.
Love hearing Rob shout out PFI speed, those guys are awesome!
You want the crows foot 90deg from the wrench when you apply torque. If it’s in line you are adding to the moment arm and applying a different torque than it’s set to. The wrench is calibrated to apply a torque at the ratchet head…adding a crowd foot adds another inch or so depending on size.
You might also want to check out using a graphite gaskets for that turbo
Oh thank god, I was having withdrawls from 4 Rotor updates.
Edit: This video isn't about the 4 rotor. I feel attacked
1:00 thats why i use incandecent headlights to load test a non computer controlled circuit when testing wiring integrity.if its a 3a bulb and lights up then you know the wiring will have no problem activating a 1-3a device.great way other then voltage drop testing for a quick wire integrity test to prove theres not high resistance in wire
Your Fab Guy does some beautiful work
i have used nordlock for years. not single failure/loosing nut when use them. Those works well in manifolds turbos etc but allso chassis parts.
Rob, my coffee maker has configurable PID control. It's no worse than two extra knobs on a thermostat. Learn it and love it.