Alpha .308 Torture Test: How Many Firings On A Single Piece Of Brass?
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- čas přidán 18. 06. 2024
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How many firings can you get out of a single piece of brass? That's right, we're going to take 1 piece of brass and fire it, then reload it, over and over. Does this brass have a breaking point? We've already done some extreme testing with Alpha Munitions OCD brass. We've pushed pressures way beyond max loads, taking .308 into 300 Win mag territory. We've been amazed by the strength of the brass thus far. In this next phase of testing we're building on that. This time, we’re torture testing it again to find its breaking point!
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![[Don't Try This] Pushing the 308 Win to 300 Win Mag (Bat Machine, Alpha Munitions)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uXkmcpk7Brc/mqdefault.jpg)
15:28 for anyone wondering: 47 firings without annealing
I'm curious how much of it had to do with the nutty pressures. Repeat test with normal pressures and no annealing and seeing if its the same would be interesting.
@@Dragonfiregum agreed. Interesting results but need a test minimizing variables.
Thank you for saving me 15 minutes
He might still be testing if he annealed and kept the pressure normal.
@@Mike-xi4zt Then that brass would be still viable after he ran out of components...
Have Used Lake City 82 Brass (Same 100 Pcs) for Match - Silhouette Shooting for More than 10 Years - Only Loosing 1 Piece due to Neck Split...( Not Annealed Either)...Large Rifle Primers - CCI 200...
That's pretty cool. Groups still holding up well, I take it?
LC brass is tough as nails. I’ve run top end 175gr loads 6-7 times and the cases are still fine. Peterson brass is also outstanding. Winchester and Hornady brass is junk.
I've experienced loose primer pockets in 223 lc brass but wcc seems to hold up better in 223 for me.
*losing (not loosing).
To help me remember the difference between loose and lose, I think of the opposite word since they share the same number of letters: Tight/Loose - opposites with 5 letters each, Find/Lose - opposites with 4 letters each. Hope that helps. Have a good day.
I've had similar results with Lake City crimped primer brass. It can last for a astounding amount of firings by anneeling and keeping the pressure reasonable.
That amount of firing is crazy on a single case, the most iv got on 308w Lapua brass with over pressure loads was 11...
News for ya. Brass being the most expensive component of reloading these days I take all my brass to the outer limits of sanity lol
If you pay a dollar per piece and get 10 firings that's only 10c per shot. Match bullets cost 4-6x that. Powder is around 3x depending on the details.
@@Lucas12v100% agree. Primer’s are the only thing cheaper than brass
A year ago I would have told you that you were crazy . I've never paid for brass. Even my match rifle brass. At a recent match I scored over 100 pieces of Federal GMM brass for free. By prepping the cases obsessively, I can achieve 3 fps SDs and very little runout. Then I started planning to build a rifle in 6GT and holy smokes. Yup. Brass can get expensive.
Brass is more expensive than bullets?
@@Patrick-xd8jv Only if you get a lot of firings off each case.
Using a pull through expander ball does more case stretching than anything. Sizing and then using an carbide expander ball pushed down from the top, through the sized neck, so as to not stretch the case nearly eliminates case stretching. You adjust the expander ball out from the die enough that the neck doesn't get sized in the die. Annealing makes brass last 10 - 20 times longer.
I bought alpha brass because I know epstein didn't kill himself..
Rooolf
Now it's time for the Annealling test. Do it like your last set but would add the Annealling step I Anneal and have had great luck with old cartidges I got from the range. I only ask because this video was great and alot was learned.
What was the 47-shot group size?
Any interest in trying with Lapua brass? Starline? Federal? This is a neat study, but would be more interesting if compared to other brands of brass.
I'd like to see starline. Lapua hasn't been as good in my experience
While impressive, you really need a control test of quality large primer brass as stated above. I would also be interested to see how the necked up 277 fury bimetal cases stack up. Happy to ship you some if it helps the project along, let me know
I wasn't shooting high pressure loads, but when I was bench shooting I had enough rounds through one 7BR case I was indexing that the extractor wore the rim to the fail point, I reindexed to another position and kept going. Well over 300 rounds.
Do you think that you were maybe just lucky enough to pick the best piece of brass in the box? I wonder how the rest of them may have performed?
Would love to see this done comparing others too like Lapua, Peterson, Starline, etc
i did a similar test years ago with LAPUA 06 brass, got about 50 plus reloads out of a case with max loads of R22 behind a 200 Partition...sitting on a vel of 2700 from a 24 inch barrel....brass was not annealed, neck sized and full length resized every 5 or so shots...eventually the necks started splitting
Pretty awesome testing. Alpha always did seem like the best brass I’ve loaded with but this shows how nice it is.
Not surprising for 308 and good brass. I had many reloads for 308 Palma shooting, and never had a pressure sign. Great test!
Great Test, would also be good when done with other common brands like Nosler, Hornady…
Great practical testing
I’m happy I found this channel it’s helpful especially when i’m just getting back into reloading
His older stuff is much more interesting/informative than his newer stuff in regards to reloading
I'm loving these test videos, BZ.
This channel is just awesome. Thanks for all the interesting and informative videos.
I’ve been running the SP 6.5 creedmoor brass since 2017 or 2018. I still haven’t worn out 100 cases out of the 500 I ordered.
Great video and that is amazing how well the brass held up. I think I’m up to about 10 loadings on some Lapua brass and it looks great with good fit on the primers but I couldn’t even imagine 30+ and I do anneal every time.
can you also test Peterson brass?
Great test with more than impressive results. Many thanks.
Appreciate the data.
I bought 2 sets of Lapua 308 and 2 sets of alpha. My intention was to wear out the Lapua first and then move on to the alpha.... I'm still shooting the original two sets of lapua 308 in the barrel is starting to get pretty fire cracked and pretty nasty... Maybe Someday I'll get to try the alpha 😅
I did this same test with my HK91. Every case was ruined after the first firing. Roller delayed blowback is a beast on brass.
Yes, those HK's are rough on brass!
Typical change on gun safety rules on HK91/G3: Do not point the gun or the ejection port toward anything you are not willing to destroy.
As for reloading, you are lucky if you can even find the casing to scrap it for the brass.
Excellent video
Very interesting Gavin, good work, would be nice to also quantify the effect of annealing on case longevity
Outstanding SD figure, particularly for so many shots! Great brass life too...
I have one lot of 308 Winchester Lapua large primer brass with 12 firings. Those were relatively hot loadings behind 175 grainers. I won't lie, I checked them out close for split and head seperation. I found 0 of either. I did find a few that primer pockets weren't as tight as others. This brass had never been annealed and loaded what some would call dirty, half those firings. Funny thing is the rifle is extremely accurate to 1200 yard's if I do my part. Stock Savage FCP M10 heavy fluted barrel. Put up some amazing group's testing from 45 to 46 grains. None over half an inch one @ .188. I love that little stock rifle.
Nice!! Awesome channel Gavin
Thank you for watching, this was a fun experiment :)
I anneal my brass after every firing, I full length resize, no expander ball, and I use a mandrel to expand the I.D. [0.0015" below bullet diameter] of the neck. Since using this process, my brass lasts years. I also find that trimming is needed a lot less often.
Great work!
Very cool video!
You mentioned the importance of your rifle chamber and the dimensions of your sizing guy. Have you ever thought about making custom sizing dies to perfectly match the chambers that you ream?
Yes! At some point I'd like to offer dies that match our Ultimate Reloader custom rifles...
Fascinating video. A couple months ago I recieved my first .308 Alpha brass and noticed the mouths has some burrs both on the inside and outside, so deburrred and chamfered them all. Then took ten and measured everything to compare to Lapua and Peterson brass, both as virgin and after being fired once. During the firing of that ten, which were primed with CC-I400's, 3 of the 10 were pierced, which I guess shouldn't have surprised me given the 400's thinner cup and the cautionary report of that possibly happening due to their larger flash holes. Loaded up another 10 with 450's and they all did great, better than any virgin brass I've done before. Loaded up the remainder of the 100 the same for fire forming and they all again did great (80 shots, ES:29, SD: 6.2, sub 1/2 MOA on targets). Case dimension are very consistent as is the case volumes; better than what I've measure with Lapua and Peterson. Web thickness is substantially thicker than my Lapua brass, which supports why the Alpha brass hold up so well. Primer pockets were .002-.003 deeper also. Case volume ~.5 gr less than Lapua and ~.2 gr more than Peters (for the brass that I have). Alpha .308 brass . . . really good brass. IMHO
Great info, I was surprised to hear how much it did or did not grow, also understanding milage may vary with different brass manufacturer
In our testing we saw basically same results with alpha ocd 22 creed brass . Very impressed .
Extremely interested. Thanks
Gavin, a few questions: 1st: you never stated if you were neck resizing or full case sizing?
2nd: did you clean brass at all or was it straight from chamber back to press?
3rd did you use case lube after each firing during sizing?
Lastly I actually loved this kind of video not so much max load data torture testing but I guess that sets the bar for standards when comparing it against other brass, which I would love to see.
Back in the day lake city brass was all the rage then a few years ago lupa brass now this brass seems to be the new king. Let’s see a test between like standard big box brass and custom brass???? That would be awesomw
I the feeling he was doing an absolute minimal full length based on what he said.
He used the Area 419 Modular Headspace die, which is a full-length sizing die with adjustments in .001"
Another good video Gavin….
Cool content; thanks
Just had to trim after 7th reload, aguila brass, 125 sie spt over 48g h4895. Grew 10thou. Started to feel it when chambering rounds. Trimed and still loading.
How do you know how much of this durability (longevity) is properly attributed to the brass, and how much is properly attributed to the rifle?
If you do another test with annealing have one round you anneal every time and another that you anneal every 5 or 10 firings and see which one last longer and gives more consistent velocity.
Shots 1 and 2 basically fire formed the case. Tight chamber specs kept the case elongation to a minimum.
Good info. 👍👍
Very, very cool. Subbed, for sure. Keep it up!
Thanks for watching!
Interesting experiment. The number of uses a case can withstand will of course be affected by case prep and load pressure. I don't load .308, but it's probably the next rifle I'll buy. The closest I load is 7mm Rem Mag. I shoot it infrequently and have about 200 cases of various makes, loaded and not. Based on how often I shoot 7mm Rem Mag, I could use each case just once and still have unfired rounds when my heir gets the rifle, a Browning A-Bolt Medallion.
So like a well seasoned block in a racecar, they mellow with use and become more consistent
please do other brands of brass this was very interesting
That's really interesting. I did a 9mm hot load torture test using a semi automatic uzi. I used ten pieces of brass and the last one failed at about 14 firings.
Would love to see this with a standard rifle, Hornady brass, and a standard velocity loading to see how the results changed. Also to determine if POI changes with used brass
That is tough brass.
I feel the added velocity could be due to the reduced case capacity in alpha brass vs the hornady or winchester (huge) that hodgdon data uses
Also have you done any testing with the high pressure two piece steel/brass cases?
Having been close to THREE rifles exploding from reloads, I dont see the ultimate economy vs risk equation here.
Nice test what was your shoulder bump ?
My mother bought me a savage 30/06 and 5 boxes of Remington ammo when I was 16 I'm 52 now I've never bought another box of ammo for it and have been simply reusing the brass . I've hunted every season with that rifle and ammo I'm down to only about half a box of usable brass now but my hunting days are growing shorter anyways .
I’ve had Winchester and PPU brass either crack around the neck or lose the ability to hold neck tension when neck only sizing after four to five firings if I don’t anneal.
Impressive
Data and math! We put superglue on a fly… but it died.
How did you have the sizing die set? How far did you set the shoulder back?
Gavin normally bumps the shoulder back .002”
That's impressive.......or is it? Are those results unique to Alpha brass or would any premium brass give basically the same result? What this does prove beyond doubt is annealing is essential to long life. Thanks Gavin!!!
Did you use Alpha reamer for 6 dasher Alpha brass? Excellent video.
this is interesting....i would also like to see a video cover reusing old shells..... like ones that are tarnished, or even rusty/corroded.
ive always been curious how well it would work if some one cleaned up an old range and reloaded the shells, or if you were in some sort of war situation where you only have bad condition shells. Ive always wondered, how bad is too bad.
Interesting experiment! Thanks for the video!
Ok, love your details! Question, what is the case head dia of new Alpha brass in 308?
Don't use Alpha BRA brass in anything other than a chamber done with the alpha bra reamer. They chose some funny numbers.
Phenomenally impressive….
Would like to see the same type of test done with .243win, .270win, 6,5x55 swede, 30-06 and 300win mag.
And a comparison test with Norma brass, lapua brass, Remington brass, hornady brass, ppu brass and starline brass in the same calibers
I had once done this test on 22 K-Hornet brass. I was getting about 8 firings from my 223 Ackley and needed a scientific test with cheaper components. I found 6-8 reliable reloads on un-annealed brass was the standard life span. Neck sizing only really didn't do much for the lifespan since you need to FL size occasionally anyway - I think I extended my results by 2 firings on average, which wasn't statistically significant. What made the most difference on those tiny necks was annealing - I got 22 reloads out of a lot of 20 before I finally got tired of the test. You can hear the brass when it's finished.
Anecdotally I can say if you only neck size and don't go crazy with the charge they last a looooong time. When I was a kid I loaded the same 10 pieces of 308 brass over and over with a lee loader and the primer pockets wore out before anything cracked or failed.
I'd like to see a comparison of various manufactures 308 case capacities.. I am guessing the Alpha brass is thicker then most, possibly contributing to the high speed (pressure) and longevity..
Does the suppressor add any fps? I bet Hogdon didn't use one.
Minute 11:20, you totally missed that the Hodgdon data used Winchester brass, not Alpha. I would bet the Winchester has a larger case volume than Alpha. You are comparing apples and oranges again.
My measurements show that Winchester brass has the highest case volume of any 308 case
You can't really expect objectivity when the entire video is literally an advertisement for the product being featured.
I did have a 308 case blow the primer out and the shell was very hot nothing happen it shot fine
I wonder if the rifle powder burns hot enough to anneal the brass slightly with each shot.
Hi Gavin I don't reload but I would like to see a high pressure 85grain 308 loading.the bullet is from the 30 carbine .extreme cavatator
We shoot FTR combination many use, 200g Berger at 2,650 FPS (roughly) with Lapua Palma brass (SRP) and I've got over 20 loads one season. The LRP brass would only last 2-3 before they would not hold primer.
Cool test. I would have stopped at 40, when the hairline crack started to appear. Good test though. That chamber on your rifle has a lot to do with the condition of the brass. Alpha is great brass, and this shows where using small rifle primers has a benefit over using large rifle primer pocket brass.
Mind you this little bit of experience is sort of an apples to oranges comparison. But my father and I used to load 5.56 for use in semi and full auto rifles, ussually with a goal of innexpensive shooting. It was common to start seeing case splits after 3-4 loadings. Yeah, we didn't anneal them either. I know this kind of loading and shooting are completely different than your approach, but it's another way to experience case life testing.
Call the crazy Mark Fox, he's running his .510, .416 and the 420Blitz at 100.000 psi all day long. Different design, CNC made brass,high pressure action and here you go...
Cnc made brass?
still waiting for when that stuff will actually be available.....also, how will the barrel life be at those pressures? until there is another leap in barrel material tech, I don't see it......
@@Spruce-Bug yes it can be done on a lathe (CNC lathe).
@@SigmaBallistics dont know for sure but barrel life will be less than 1000 rounds. Over 200grains of powder at 90-100k psi comes with a price...
Interesting. I am a new reloader who has been reloading while using some basic level of "load development" strategy for my hunting ammo needs for about the last 3 years. I have been using the same 50-60 pieces of brass this entire time (some may have fallen out due to my learning curve and mishandling) and I have been wondering if I should throw it all away this year and get new brass for this co.ing season??... According to my notes, I'd guess each piece of brass has 8-10 shots on it. I have been hand annealing with a torch mostly by hand. with this info presented here. I would guess i am good for at least 1 more year even thoughi dont have the same brass tested here.... Switching to Barnes TTSX Copper this year, so the entire load development process shall happen on this brass. SHOULD BE GOOD??
So, when you get a split neck...it still shoots safely? You don't notice it when shot??
Maximum 5 time can you load after that you can see in bas brass black line around
If running a bolt rifle, you need very little sizing. Any cartridge with a belt can be problematic as can rimmed cartridges like 303 British or 30-30 that needs full sizing for lever guns.
Was this full length resize or just "shoulder bump"
So: which is the best brass to reload (GOAT)?
Was about to write: What about 1. large primer pockets,2. single annealing vs no annealing per cycle, and 3. only slightly overpressured for adding that reliability margin.
Lapua brass right outta the box, no die work at all, zero. Filled case to the top of the neck, Varget, screeded excess (+/- 48.5 gr) & seated 155 Lapua Scenar’s until they would not push down any more, no measuring. Shot one hole ragged groups at 2880 fps consistently. Since the brass is 1000 ct box, I just keep loading new cases for my hunting rounds. Not sure I will go thru 1000 with my remaining lifetime.
Destructive testing. Is done by the US military all the time. For many kinds of weapons. I was present when this was done to a Helicopter rotor , the rotor currently used in the Apache helicopter. At about 145% of max speed it exploded, in a controlled environment. You have to know.
That's how engineering parameters are achieved!!
Do you think you would of had a different result in longevity in the brass if you would have annealed it? EDIT, I see you addressed this.
I don't get near that, I use small base die, Lake City brass, 147 fmj and shoot thru an autoloader
6.5 BR lapua Match - Silhouette Shooting have not lost any in 10 years mild load 107 @ 2600fps my PRS gun 6xc Lapua I get 25 and the necks are to thin. 115 dtac @ 3200fps.
Great paid ad for Alpha Brass
What lifespan do you think you can get out of "store bought" brass? Aka; Winchester
Alpha Brass (from my research) 😢does not offer any of my current rifles (working ones 7mm-08 has barrel shot out after 25 years). My current baby is my 6.5 PRC and Alpha does not make that. Do you know if they are working on brass for that?
Not sure about 6.5 PRC, but you would neck down 308 to 7mm-08 if you have that rifle up and running at some point.
@Ultimatereloader yeah, we used to neck down military 7.62 (308) brass for 7mm-08. Father worked on a military base and had buckets full of it. During Covid I had to sell off our Savage 99 lever action 308 to survive. Very sad day for me. It was my first hunting rifle.
Gavin on your first fire did you run a the resizing ball through it and chamfer and deburr or no prep?
Why would a person want to over pressure a case?
It’s actually too tough