The END Of Golden Freddy?! | MatPat Reacts To
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It's time for us to finish out our @Dual-Process-Theory reaction. We've done 4 parts already about Golden Freddy and solving FNAF but it's time to finally hit the end of this thing and definitely find out if FNAF is solved or not!
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Saying he wouldn't sacrifice Michael, the kid he blames for another kid's death, to save his favorite child is Mat's own bias as a parent. Mat's a good dad, William CLEARLY isn't.
William may also just straight up be a sociopath and utterly incapable of actual love and affection, at least in anyway normal folks would understand. There’s also the possibility that William said to himself “Well, if I go down there, they eat me. If they eat me, *nobody* gets put back together. If I send Mike, he may pull it off, which is good, and if he dies, I can just add him to the list of people who need to be put back together.”
My man is an only child he doesn't know about parents having favourites even if in subtle details sometimes that does happen😅
100% was thinking the same thing. Matt's blind spot to parental favoritism when siblings are involved really cramped his ability to think through that I think.
"His only surviving son" being the son responsible for significantly harming another of his children (who ultimately died at Williams hand, per this theory) which then sparked his drive to start this whole remnant experimenting in the first place, which ultimately led to the death of Elizabeth also.
A terrible person such as William could easily blame Michael for BOTH deaths of the other children, despite himself being the true hand of death. Classic Narcissistic blame-shifting and perpetual victimhood.
Why did you spell "Matt" like that?
The movie also showed William has no problem straight up stabbing his children for his own selfish ends. I don't think William is actually a "family man" in any sense.
Matt seems to be forgetting that in the immortal and the restless the kid clearly was Vlad's but Vlad kept denying it. So if anything it supports the point that William would happily sacrifice Mike for Elizabeth because he doesn't think of Mike as his kid (despite him being his kid).
THIS
Yes, this. As I saw another comment point out, William could have "disowned" Michael, even if mentally to himself. It's clear he began to see Michael as more of a pawn and errand boy than a son, while still using the manipulation and false care towards him to sway Michael in his favour
THANK YOU
Nice callout
If movie Vanessa is meant to be a parallel to game Mike, William absolutely would have no qualms harming his son.
I may be extrapolating here but I think that it says good things about MatPat that he can’t quite fathom why a dad would send his son to death.
Bro never seen abusive dad's before 😂
Yeahhhh
Quite the irony of talking about dead kids when your kid walks in and asks "who's that speaking?" :D
Literally I was thinking "Does MatPat need someone to explain parental abuse to him?" Glad to see this take about it here. You're right, it does say a lot about him, a lot of good things.
Ong
I think Matpat should have a discussion with Dual Process Theory where they can talk about this theory, it would maybe help clarify a lot and give a different perspective
Yea
Hard agree
Absolutely!! I’d love to see my two favourite theory channels discuss tbh, it would be really interesting :D
ThisThisThiiiiiiis! He's definetly doing his best to follow along but with this being a reaction Series theat's being done in front of a camera it's causing a lot of pausing and tangents on his part (and we love ya for it MatPat, it's why we're here lol) but it also means he forgets part of the video/lore that's already been discussed and leaves a bit to much room for misinterpretation, which he seems to recognize and aknowledge. It really would all be helped if it was a real time discussion.
I suggest he does one or two watchthroughs of the video and then maybe they do a live call to go through all of his questions about the theory. He's obviously busy with stuff so it might be a lot to take on but if they're gonna to a Game Theory related to DPT then I really think it's a must just so that everyone is on the same page.
The moment Ollie came in and interrupted the recording has me dying- he's just so sweet 🥺🥺😭😭🩷🩷
im sorry your wholesome comment got spammed
@@A59ri Thank you for your sympathy
@UTubeTrollPoIiceNWO you should feel disgusted of yourself for commenting this
@@thesorcererleolifesword2046it’s a bot just report the comments
Let’s spam this comment with good replies to drown out those other ones
I think they kinda misrepresented what dual process was saying the motivation was for William using Michael in sister location. It’s not out of vengeance that he sends Michael, but out of self preservation and utter indifference whether Michael lives or dies. He’s not planning Michael’s death, just doesn’t care if he survives or not.
Yes, this is what I got from it too. I actually think this makes more sense than what Matt suggested in his videos of William going missing for a while, so Michael went to investigate the bunker. Both DPT and Matt took a creative narrative spin to explain why Michael went down there, and I feel DPT’s explanation makes sense to me.
Honestly, it shows that MatPat comes from a healthier family dynamic, and actively *has* a healthier dynamic with his own son. A lot of people talk about it, but it is very true that people who are not from abusive households just do not understand what it means to go through that abuse.
@@FnafisGayyour troll account is pretty lame, honestly
Yeah I saw that as William using his tool to do smth he doesn’t want to do, cuz lets be honest William doesn’t care about Michael and by the looks of it Michael is a tool to William all throughout fnaf
@@FnafisGay Are you okay? You seem to be taking the work as literal, do you need help?
I think what Matpat is missing is that narcissists often have a scapegoat child. Michael is the scapegoat child, the one that can be blamed for everything going wrong. He was the reason crying child is dead, which kicked off everything. William hates Michael, but also uses him as a tool of convenience.
Exactly what I was thinking, I think we need to stop thinking that he may have been a good person at any point and just realise he may have always been a narcissists.
if anything this goes to show how good of a father he is that he cant grasp that concept bc he himself is a father- its only a little bitter but mostly like super sweet
The main issue I see with MatPat's pushback on Michael is applying sane logic to an insane person. Insanity can lead you to conclusions and logic that seem perfectly acceptable to an unsound mind, but would sound crazy coming from a sane person. William Afton is a psychopath. He is not sane. Applying your sound mind to his not sound thoughts doesn't align.
Bros admiring the purple dude too much. That's bad MATPAT
It also doesn't make for a good story, though. It feels like a copout to say a character is insane, and therefore can do anything at any time regardless of previous establishments. It muddies the story and is a cheap way to make any interpretation work. It's like Dream Theory applied to a character's personality, it's just weak.
@@Mega-Bricki wouldn’t say it’s a copout. a lot of william’s traits and actions like up with that of a narcissist. it is a very real issue that people face and can explain why he does certain things, especially involving the way he treats micheal.
it’s not that he’s simply “crazy”, but you also have to consider that no completely mentally healthy person is going around murdering children.
@@Mega-Brick ah yes, another person thinking any mental illness in a story is a copout lol. because surely a completely mentally sound man is going around on a rampage of slashing and killing kids. when they say an "insane" person, they are just being general and not pointing out a specific mental illness, it's not literal. insane in this instance just means mentally unsound.
A counter to the "Michael isnt his son", you can disown someone and claim they arent your child even with direct bloodline
Another counter: Michael is supposedly a spitting image of William.
A third counter: I think pineapple does work on pizza
@@handles-R-retodded I think they’re more saying that he can claim he’s not his son by disowning him by directly saying “you are not my son anymore“ rather than claiming he’s not a biological son, is what I think the original comment is saying. Disowning someone doesn’t mean that you don’t think that they’re yours, it just means that you don’t want them as to be thought off as your family anymore.
Maybe Michael really isn't Afton's son, he could be Henry's, wasn't Henry and William shown in the novels to look really similar then the "inmortal and the restless" would make sense, a son who looks a lot like him but it's not his
@kaoselleonoscuro1858 that might also be why recent stuff keeps saying Afton is a kidnapper, he kidnapped Michael
“He’s just so angry that he exumes his own body”? We have a character canonically so mad they create an entire purgatory for the target of their rage and keep their own soul and Afton’s there specifically through rage.
Is this really a surprise
lol thank yhu then how is Cassidy the one who shouldn’t have been killed by William when his brother did it lol but ig
That's also how William came back too, he didn't have remnant, there is not endoskeleton in the spring bonnie suit at that time.
@@lifenote1943 Isn't that Springtrap's thing though? The springlocks fail and the endoskeleton snaps back into place into William eventually killing him.
@@nathanielreik6617 Nah, I always assumed the springlock system is what kills the people, not the endoskeleton. When they're animatronics, the endoskeleton is in the suit and is held in place by the locks. When used as a mascot suit, the endoskeleton is taken out to create space, and the springs are pulled back so it can just be worn normally. The springlocks failing just means they're released and your body is stabbed by hundreds/thousands of springlocks at the same time and you slowly bleed out (think like the medieval ironmaidens- which aren't apparently real but point still stands).
@@nathanielreik6617yeah, what Spam said. the exoskeletons are separate, just like the normal animatronics - what makes the springlock suits special is that the springs to hold the endo in place can be wound back and the endo removed so a person can wear it. if you remove the endo from a non-spring animatronic, it's just a bunch of plastic shell pieces that can't be worn.
I hope Matt goes back and rewatches this in one go, taking in ALL THE INFORMATION 😭. He keeps going back and refrencing his own construct of the lore from points that are just as loose as some in the dual process theory video
He also didn't watch til the end. He clearly missed something important there!😅
@@silenthell666the entire final segment was the part I was waiting for the most, too 😭😭
Yeah matpat sorta gets in his own way. He kinda just loses attention and drifts off
I do the same. So I get it
this needs to get pinned because lowkey i was like "LET THEM TALKKKK YOURE JUMPING AHEAD"
I'm happy for Matt, genuinely, that he doesn't have the experiences to understand how compelling this narrative of William the narcissist and abuser is. William holding a grudge against his child, using him to do his bidding, and then killing him when he decides feels like said kid is no longer of use (or rather, just seeing him as disposable and therefore being willing to risk him for Elizabeth), is not at all that crazy of a story, even in the real world. Ollie is really lucky to have a dad who can't comprehend the idea that a parent could hate their child like that, even if they 'get along'
Something I noticed with regards to UCN that I don't think gets mentioned by either Dual Process or MatPat, and has become part of the reason why I personally believe the whole "Michael is the vengeful spirit" theory, is that Michael has encountered all of the animatronics you have to deal with in UCN, some of which are ones that ONLY Michael has encountered. Namely the phantom animatronics and most of the Pizzeria Sim purchasable animatronics like the Rockstars and the Mediocre Melodies. If Cassidy was the vengeful spirit (regardless of if they were William's kid or not) then they wouldn't know most of the animatronics. You could say they took the animatronics from William's memories or something, but even then, William has never seen the Phantoms, or the Nightmares, or the Pizzeria Sim guys. Michael has. Michael knows who all of these animatronics are and is using them to torture his father.
Ok that is a very good point. I was a bit undecided on this whole theory but you bringing that up has tipped the scales a bit. I feel like that was popping in the back of my head in the video but kept getting pushed back by other things being mentioned but you've brought it out. I'm definitely more on the side of Michael is the vengeful spirit now.
UCN is really frustrating in this regard - it’s too unclear what parts of the gameplay are actually happening in-world, and which ones are abstract gameplay features. Is Withered Bonnie really cracking face-puns to his own killer, or was that just something Scott thought would be funny? I’d be fine with this in any other game, but FNaF is too much of a detail-oriented franchise for something like this. Fun game, though.
There are multiple FNAF WORLD characters and references
@@bruceainsworth5513references maybe, i’d have to rewatch! but the only character in the lineup from
there is old man consequences, who they posit is henry, and omc is in fnaf world, so that puts an end to that on even the references end!
Great point!
As someone who grew up in an abusive household: Micheal only snapping after he died actually tracks.
You try and try all of your life to be loved. You shove yourself down, you obey... you go into a bunker full of murderous animatronics.
You would do ANYTHING because you can't help but hope that someday you'll have done enough to finally be loved... And it's a LOT harder to give up that hope when it's your parents.
When Micheal died, he snapped because he finally realized that "someday" was never coming. Even after everything he'd done for his father's affection, William still sent him to die. And when that realization really hits, it HURTS and you get ANGRY.
Of course it's not always the same process or reaction, but it mirrors my experience pretty darn well (minus the whole "animatronics and dead kids* stuff).
Note 1: I'm not saying this proves the WHOLE theory, just that this one part IS absolutely plausible if looked at via abuse. Overall I am ✨wildly✨ unqualified to debate FNAF lore, so I'm gonna just slide this under the theorists door (I just like listening to people talk about it 😅).
Note 2: I kind of completely forgot just how tragic stuff like this is/sounds so I'm really sorry if I made anyone feel bad! I snapped years ago and I've had plenty of time to heal and grow, so I'm totally fine and talking about it doesn't hurt me at all. I just thought it was valuable info when talking about this kind of abuse 😅. If it makes too many people feel bad I'll probably end up deleting this cause I don't wanna be the downer in the GTLive community
It would make sense that way, but all the other proof: Scott implying that vengeful spirit is indeed a child (from casting the voice), movie references to thta one boy who is vengeful and is the 5th missing child, and as Matpat points out, William is literally crying out to Mike, it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE to be crying out to the one who literally torments you right, it's satisfying narratively, and especially for you as you have experienced this and im so sorry that you have, but logically, it doesn't add up
Or you go the way I did and completely shut down, not interacting with anyone in the hopes that your abuser will forget about you, at least for now. Never telling anyone about your fears or your problems, and becoming a recluse. I wonder if that's the way CC/Cassidy would've turned out if he'd lived
Jesus bro 🗣️
I'm so sorry you've gone through this, your second line really made me laugh x
@@assadarlingtoni Oh, you're totally fine. I just made this comment to prove that singular point, not the whole theory.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that is confused by mats commentary it’s like his brain is resetting and forgetting past information lol
Like what?
A lot of the issues I think Mat has had with this theory are based on him wanting to jump in with his own explanations and theories while watching this video, which just confuses the points the video is making for him, and ends up muddling the message that the theory was trying to give, and constantly interrupting the points of the video to come to his own explanations about why it wouldn't work before listening to the arguments.
I think having Mat sit down to watch the full video without interrupting, just experiencing the thought process of the theory as it happens, without jumping around, would end up changing some of his views on it.
Eh, I think he had some very fair criticisms. There were a lot of portions where they had to reiterate points and hone in on the emotional impact of their claims to hide the fact that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Which is fine, to be fair, this is not a franchise with a clear solution and I totally like what they're going for.
42:33 Mat, I love you, and I love that you don't understand what an abuser will do, because William, despite being a murderer, would ABSOLUTELY make sure Micheal is surviving. Micheal is a pawn, a tool, something to be used in William's eyes, that's how any abusive father would view their kid that they liked less. William "allows" Micheal to survive only so he can keep tormenting Micheal, only so he has something to keep power over, only so he has someone who is diehard loyal to him and him alone. Micheal's death isn't worth as much as Micheal's utility in William's eyes. He does not see Micheal as a son, he does not see Micheal as a person, he sees Micheal as the boy that cost William the son he actually loved, and for that Micheal is not worthy of the escape death would bring him, not till William feels Micheal has payed his debt.
I hope he sees this an other comments an comes back to this with fresh eyes an new perspective. Cause idk but this was really hard watch cause is just so obvious how much his own person feelings, beliefs, and other various biases has gotten in the way.
I usually like watching his vids like this so can break it down with him, but he keeps getting in his own way this time. I guess didn't help Ollie came in and they talking about a "father" abusing and using his son.
@@sarhahillsburg5142yeah. I hope matpat does a full rewatch
like Ash said, mike would have served his purpose
omg U MADE A WHOLE COMMENT YES IM COMING HERE TO SAY I AGREE U R RIGHT 100% BIGGUS BRAINUS MAXIMUS GALAXIUS
@@Eldr1tchGl1tch But without Michael William would have no one to have power over
"The puppet wasn't in the Fnaf1 location."
Matpat. Are you forgetting the cutscenes from Fnaf2? The puppet appears in front of the stage from the Fnaf1 location as you watch through Freddy's eyes.
To be fair to him, those cutscenes are called dreams in the files.
@UTubeTrollPoIiceNWOfind God. You’ll need him.
@@ArtFromHer I think it's too late for him
@ArtFromHer not even he can help them
@UTubeTrollPoIiceNWO nice rage bait, this is what happens when ur deprived of love from your parents as a child.
I think something Mat is missing here is the fact that at 1:08:06, Nightmare Golden Freddy specifically EMPHASIZES " > This time an illusion < to fear."
If Cassidy is the crying child and was in a coma this whole time, Cassidy wouldn't have any knowledge or experience with illusions. That was all post Cassidy's bite. This means there's more evidence to prove that Michael is the vengeful spirit than Cassidy.
Not only that but Cassidy has had literally no build up of hatred towards his father this whole time. There's an important key fact that's being forgotten by Mat and his team; If the spirits don't remember what happened to them when they're wandering, Cassidy would have no memory of how he died. Not only that, his father did nothing to him when he was conscious and healthy. He killed him when he was in a coma.
It makes 0 sense for Cassidy to be the vengeful spirit: No memory of how he died. No connection to illusions. No reason to hate William even after being springlocked. Its 100% Michael.
In fairness, Matt does say that it wouldn't make sense for it to be Crying Child/Cassidy. I do think that the only explanations that really make sense are that it's Michael or that there are two spirits in Golden Freddy and the other one is the Vengeful Spirit. I don't know where Matt stands on the two spirits thing at this point (he does seem to agree with Cassidy = Crying Child, and I feel like that makes two spirits very questionable), but I think Dual Process made a strong case for it to only be Cassidy.
Well here's the thing I kinda agree with Matt that Michael=Vengeful Spirit has a lot of holes.
Firstly, we can't say that Nightmare Fredbears line is proof, as that assumes that Michael is the one saying that. Since some lines from Orville, Happy Frog, etc. are very obviously from the vengeful spirit, it's a jump to assume that all lines are from him.
For example, withered chicas "I was the first. I have seen everything." If we say that line is from the vengeful spirit, does that mean the vengeful spirit was killed first? Obviously not, we know that was Suzie. As a side note, I also doubt that Michael was the one behind Mr Hippos speeches.
As for Cassidy not knowing how he died, well, neither do we. Don't forget that the William placing CC in the golden Freddy suit and it getting springlocked while he was in a coma is pure speculation at best.
The twitching in the springlock suits happens from the person inside moving, not from the suit itself. This is mentioned in the Fazbear frights story. If CC was in a coma, how would he have been twitching the suit during the springlock.
As well as all the Cassidy and Golden Freddy imagery in UCN like cmon.
Overall I'm like 75% sure that we don't know who the vengeful spirit is yet. 20% sure its Cassidy (as in Crying Child). 5% sure that it could be Michael.
Sorry for long reply
“William is family oriented” SINCE WHEN??? He put a camera and a microphone into a teddy bear because he cared more about being at work than being a present father to his kids…
I do think there’s a lot to be said about the psychology of abusers and their scapegoat kids. Sure, Michael was “kept alive” this whole time, but he was USEFUL. He’s been using and experimenting on him for forever. That’s the point of Michael - his use. And while Michael did do something terrible, scapegoat kids don’t really ever NEED to do anything wrong to be the abused/discarded kid among “loved” kids. But it’s not because William cared about him, it’s because Michael was his punching bag and errand boy and ultimately, I think we’re looking for logic in why he’d sacrifice his last kid when at the end of the day, it’s possible that William just…didn’t care enough about him to not toss him down there when the opportunity to trade him for his golden child presented itself.
Yes, this. It's clear he began to see Michael as more of a pawn and errand boy than a son, while still using the manipulation and false care towards him to sway Michael in his favour. Not too get too personal, but I have experience with being a "scapegoat", and at the end of the day, once your use to them is used up, usually as a punching bag and thing to fall to to blame all your problems on, they throw you out. In this case, William was ready for it to be permanent, and if he somehow lived, meh, alright
I hope more people see your explanation. You put what I was feeling about the theory's narrative and MatPat's rebuttals to the "logic" of the narrative. The underlying themes of emotion abuse, dysfunctional family dynamics, and enmeshment are seen as incomprehensible to those that may not be familiar with those dynamics. Those that have lived through something similar, or actively educate themselves on those matter would have an easier time accepting that these underlying themes are very much reasonable because it happens to real people.
FNAF has a lot of Golden child/ Scapegoat dynamics and themes of Envy sprinkled in the lore's narrative. Purely speculative, I wouldn't put it past Scott to add those themes because of how much those topics are taught in Bible stories. It could very well be that Micheal bullied Cassidy simply because he was envious of him being the favored child. It's the next best thing to lashing out against an abuser by a victim. A sort of "You hurt me, I'll hurt something of yours." all while vying for attention and to be wanted.
I agree sooo much with this
yeah this is exactly how i see it
@@Night_Light9123 You say "it's clear" but it's really not. We never have once had confirmation William manipulated Michael into doing anything malicious, or was ever abusive towards him or the rest of his family for that matter. Never had a confirmation, only theories. Yes, sound illusion discs is still a theory when it comes to FNAF 4, no the books are not 100% canon to the games
I think the best explanation for Mike being a child as the vengeful spirit is that the abuse and manipulation he suffered at the hands of William caused him to never emotionally grow out of being that scared little boy. Also, with the hair color difference, I'm pretty sure its fairly common for people to be born with blonde hair and have it naturally darken to brown by the time they reach teenage years, I know it has happened with literally everyone in my family.
😊
😊
Funny, Matpat had an episode explaining that too, also he mentioned (as we saw) how two brown haired people have a blonde haired child. (Which becomes more likely if one or both parents were born blond). It's normal.
VS was killed by Afton according to them. Michael knew for a fact it was Henry that was about to burn him alive. Can't be him
fun fact, american kids also grow up to have british accents Lol
01:05:15 it's kinda funny matt put so much emphasis in "but the vengeful spirit is blond" when every depiction of Cassidy and a "vengeful spirit" (as in: andrew) has dark hair
Yeah. Mat sorta trips on the stick while lookjng at the trees in the forest
also kids can be born w blonde hair and grow with into more melanin- my sister did, she was born with light blonde hair and it turned dark brown by adulthood
Plus, are we even sure the vengeful spirit in the game IS blonde? That picture is absolutely deep-fried. All we can see of their hair is a few narrow highlights; their face is reflecting much more light than their hair.
It is kinda frustrating how many good points Mat dismisses purely because he doesn't fully understand what is being said. I wish he would invite DPT to a stream where they can discuss this theory face to face
it really feels matpat has a hard time accepting their theory because he is looking at this as him as a father. you can tell he really loves his son, i mean he appears there for a minute there, and is hard for him to swallow the idea a father would do that to his children.
Maybe, but Matt has held onto this belief of Afton being a twisted family man since the Ultimate timeline dropped so idk
I agree. He also seems to maybe cause was only child not understand parents can have favourites an can cause big divides an even siblings like Michael to lash-out like he did to his brother.
Honestly, it's really heartwarming seeing a father that can't even logically comprehend doing any of what William does to Micheal. That thinks it's illogical to do that to your own child, because in the end, Matpat is right. It is completely illogical and inhuman to do that to your own children, and yet.
Does it? I dont have a kid and I too struggle with many points in the theory. I wonder if your brain just made that connection because the kid appeared, or if you would have felt this way if it didnt.
@@lexa2310I think most of these people are projecting because this theory plays with the fandom’s favorite headcanon, which is that Michael was a poor little abused boy. Which yeah, abuse definitely happened, but every iteration and parallel of Michael we’ve seen, he is low key an asshole and 100% helping William up to SL. He *is* the Mini-Me Child who obeys Williams whims, while Elizabeth is the child that William just can’t control (and thus keeps disowning lol).
The "he's not my baby he's not my boy" is a euphemism for afton disowning Michael it's not that its not his real child
Source? Don't just say your headcanon as fact.
@@lilowhitney8614 the fact that Micheal is meant to be the spitting image of William??
@@lilowhitney8614 Michael looks just like Afton so it must be his kid....sorry u don't understand that where ur source that proves otherwise besides ur headcannon lol
I think it refers more to the point that William doesn't recognize Michael as his son, but he is.
Where _does_ that line come from? I’m not familiar with the books so I don’t know about it.
Ok ok, but Matpat not going to the actual end of their video to see the dedication... 😭😭😭
In regard to "It could be anyone that has suffered from William" logic, we know that most of the animatronics are barely more conscious than animals at some point, leaving very few mentally capable to hold a detailed grudge and memories.
And they're all kids, and EQUAL. Who gets to be the big bad, who is more vengeful than the others? Mike has suffered the most, as a full adult with years of trauma, guilt, and the sane painful death as the rest. I feel he'd be more aware and able to enact revenge, especially this specific brand of "reliving Freddy's" revenge.
If Michael IS the vengeful spirit, then the 5th child who chased William into springbonnie can definitely be Cassidy. Who says Cassidy needs to be nessesarily vengeful to chase after William? He could definitely just be confused and distressed, running to dad.
Also, the theory already outlined earlier that possession works properly when the spirits know where their bodies are and whatnot. Perhaps agony acts like an anchor that the spirits can latch onto when they recognise their vessel. Otherwise they *_roam._*
Actually it makes more sense for the 5th ghost chasing William into Bonnie to be Charlie. Charlie is the leader of the MCI victims. She's the one that gave them life. She led them to their bodies so they could stop roaming. They follow her, and she kills William.
Also if Mike is possessing his own corpse to get revenge against Afton that makes him a Revanent a undead that returns to haunt the living in the older sources but in more modern takes it is a undead that hunts their killers/people who wronged them till they get vengeance (think DnD)
@@jonathanhibberd9983 hey wait, if the other spirits only exited their vessels after they were ripped apart, then how could it be Charlie? We never saw the puppet in that specific Fnaf 3 minigame (correct me if I’m wrong), and the puppet is shown later on to be completely intact (or at least mostly intact) inside of Lefty in Pizza Sim
@@logan4365 yea,
Golden Freddy's condition at that point is a tad up in the air if we're to believe that it takes place after SL, so for all we know, Golden Freddy could have also been dismantled or something, although the reasoning for doing so eludes me... Or, more likely is that Cassidy's rather unusual condition compared to the other spirits simply allows him to do that, with the whole roaming around as a confused spirit 'n stuff. Maybe some agony got dispersed into the surroundings when William dismantled the animatronics or something, allowing Cassidy to better manifest itself. Although, that's just a some speculation on my part.
The puppet, on the other hand, is shown to still be around and kickin' by FNaF 3, which makes the theory of Charlie being the one leading the encounter questionable. Why not just show the puppet leading the charge?
@@logan4365 I view it more as metaphorical. Just like William isn't actually purple. It's 5 spirits, but Charlie in the puppet still counts as a spirit. That's why she is able to force him into the suit when the others are just standing there - she's a spirit, but she has a physical form that can hurt him in the form of the puppet.
Matt, you failed to understand what she said: "no matter how many times they burn *us*." Is what they meant by "they both were in the fire."
100%
The problem I can see is that they say "no matter how many times THEY burn us."
It implies the one saying it isn't one of the ones who burned them, and we assume Michael started the FNAF-3 fire.
The weird part though is that only Springtrap, Michael and The Puppet were present in FNAF 3.
It seems pretty unlikely that the vengeful spirit would be the Puppet, that line implies its not Michael, and I doubt William has a split personality and is torturing himself.
So was there a fourth character burned in FNAF 3?
@@robertkayborn7084I think the "no matter how many times they burn us" is only referring to the pizzeria fire. I think he's simply saying that if they'd try to burn them again, he would not let William go
@@robertkayborn7084Yes. Andrew from the books. The most likely reason for Afton having a heartbeat in FFPS is because Scott had already decided that he was still alive due to the influence of the vengeful spirit latching into him, the exact same way he survived the fire. Both fires. lol Andrew is the vengeful spirit, and likely saw both fires.
But people still don’t want to accept that, so here we are. lel
@@damkylan3Because accepting Andrew means accepting so much extra canon. The stichwraith storyline relies on so many others- ie fetch, into the pit etc, and there is still NO EVIDENCE in the games for Andrew existing, so if characters can just manifest in from the books then literally any story could be canon- including Faz goo and that weird M-preg one
Honestly I would strongly argue that the slow escalation that leads to Michael's death makes PERFECT sense when looking through the lens that Afton is an abuser, and Michael is probably his scapegoat for all of his anger. Abusers do not end the main target of their anger immediately, and they often don't even plan to. It takes years and years to build up sometimes, until they care so little for their victim's safety that it culminates in their victim's demise.
I was overall very surprised to hear them saying that was weird..... it is abusive relationship 101 that things progress slowly and have their ups and downs.
No lol
I like that matpat is happy to critique the theory, but it is frustrating that a lot of critiques are coming from misunderstanding the video. I think matpat needs to watch their video in one sitting, then film a “final thoughts” after following the video completely and reflecting on the full theory.
1:18:08 "If he's comatose, would he be twitching?" The twitching is the SPRINGLOCK! This was covered in like the first part of your reaction lol
Yeah since Mat Pat saw the video in segments, he forgot about a lot of details previously covered. I dislike that
Unfortunate he forgot about that
Also... muscle spasms in response to the springlocks could cause the twitching as well...
Still doesn't make sense. The two twitching moments we see are from 1 a conscious person (William) and 2 a possessed animatronic, Golden Freddy, we have no evidence to say that the spring locks are causing the twitching.
He said they might do a theory on it so they’ll watch it again anyway. Besides I feel like if he was in a coma the nerves would still twitch with the right stimulation. Like when you go to the doctor and they hit you in the knee for that reflex test or whatever
As a scapegoat child, i can 100% believe william not caring if Michael died if he got Elizabeth back. Some people just shouldn't be parents and won't love their kids even if they go above and beyond to appease their parents. Its tragic, but thats life.
Same, it was a bit heartbreaking how hard it was for Matt and Ash to believe a serial killer would do this to his kid, when I know a not-serial-killer would. I like that they don't know the easy of depravity, but it's not helpful when they don't understand this extremely important important part of William's character. He's an abuser, and he will act as an abuser.
Sure, but does William have to be alive at the time for that? He could have been dead already and stuck in a springlock suit. One does not proof the other.
@@lexa2310 that's not being argued here, they're arguing that it is believable for William to have just not cared whether Michael died, just that
I feel like this video is the reverse of Mat bringing up controversial evidence in a FNAF theory but the fandom largely ignores it, lol. DPT has a lot of evidence of Michael as the vengeful spirit and brings a conclusive end to everyone's story, but Mat is just like "ehhh, no. I don't like it." I definitely would've wanted him to be more open minded and really stew on having pre-conceived lore challenged, especially when he criticizes DPT for hand-waving or making narrative leaps and assumptions when he's guilty of doing the exact same thing in old videos and even in his own official timeline.
Honestly I love DPT's theory and it's a really strong candidate for being canon. It has holes and inconsistencies, but so does every theory, because that's the unfortunate nature of this franchise that had its story made up as it went along. This is,, in my opinion, as close as we can get to a conclusive, narratively satisfying and truly gripping story for pre-Steel Wool FNAF. And I feel like that's the ultimate goal of theorising as of right now.
I think the "He tried to burn us" line kind of directly says without any doubt that whoever this spirt is they were in the FNAF 6 fire tbh
That feels pretty explicit.
59:46
I wish MatPat had read this (despite being tight on time) cause I think it’s actually an interesting evidence point against Cassidy (CC cassidy) as VS. They are right- “i don’t hate you but stay out of my way” has to be talking to the vengeful spirit since she would definitely hate William, but it is a WILD thing to say to one of the kids you are actively protecting and trying to free. Leaving Mike, someone she doesn’t need to free but is a third party she doesn’t hate.
Also cc being the one he shouldnt have killed doesnt make sense since mike killed him and mike is the only one who could have seen the items in the different offices in ucm
@@douglasmidvik5866though according to DPT theory, Michael only put Cassidy in a coma, William springlocked him
I am confused. Puppet is definitely not talking to VS. Literally every voiceline in UCN is directed to William (The voicelines happen after jumpscares, when animatronics attack William). Charlie is known as being merciful spirit. She doesn't hate william, but tells him to stay out of her way so she can free the souls.
@@assadarlingtoni william literally killed her and is responsible for the deaths of the children she is trying to free, and i have a hard time believing that she wouldnt hate him after that.
@@fatlizard_ once again, Puppet is known to be the giver of life, the protector of the souls, she just wants peace. While golden freddy is considered as the vengeful and angry guy. Also, charlie was very very young when she died (3-4 years old), you really think a child that young is capable of intense hate?
1:01:04 - 109:31 What I think adds to it that isn't covered, We pick each night in UCN. We pick the animatronics, we pick the difficulty, we pick the office. We still play Michael in UCN, but only in the menu, the set up, drawing from our memories and experiences on how to torment william during game play. We decide how difficult it is, we decide who's there and where it is, we decide when the cycle starts, when it ends, and if it restarts. We play them both.
See, now this is an interesting take! It also explains how you get descriptions of all the characters before dropping in. Mike's familiar with them all. A problem with this theory, though, would be when Mike only chooses old man consequences. If you're playing as William in the gameplay itself, wouldn't you also be playing as William when you speak to old man consequences?
@@tiamorton1927maybe that's why we hear his distorted screams to Henry & Mike in the background? He is behind the screen watching this unfold
@@tiamorton1927The OMC scene is different from base gameplay and it crashes the game, you could see this break from the gameplay loop as a break from William's perspective and a return to Mike's
I really like that. I'm undecided if I'm fully convinced by everything in this video, but I really like your idea that regardless of who vengeful spirit is, they are the player in the menu.
This is a really interesting idea!
I wasn't super fond of how MatPat glossed over the "Michael is the only one among them who knows how it felt to be the FNAF security guard" bit, and I think this helps explain why. Like, that "This is how it feels" line from Orville was a huge sticking point for me. What else could it be referring to?? UCN is literally just a super-charged FNAF security guard shift that, like you said, is the vengeful spirit hand selecting which of the monsters to use against William. Michael is really the only character we have in the FNAF 6 fire who knows all of them, he'd be very familiar with them and how they work because of his experiences in the previous games, and he's literally picking and choosing which ones he wants to throw in William's face.
I just don't know who else would really fit at this point if not Michael.
Not Matt being to good of a dad to process that a parent this bad doesn’t care if his least favorite kid dies during an attempt to bring back the one/s he actually likes 😭😂
It's moreso just that saying William has a least/most-favorite child seems like a leap. I don't feel like there's enough info to actually interpret Michael as the least-favorite and Elizabeth as the most-favorite. That's what Mat's getting stuck on; to him, the two kids are still equally unliked, and trading one for another seems pointless.
@@Mega-Brick While I’d totally agree that there’s not much evidence to suggest a favorite, I’d argue that the idea that William may specifically have a problem with Mike after he killed one of the kids left in his care because he was purposefully bullying him isn’t a far reach. And considering Afton is kind of a violent maniac, I could definitely see him being detached when it comes to Mike and eventually getting to a point where his life means little to William beyond serving his god complex and meeting his goals of basically conquering death. I mean, what’s another dead kid to William? He thinks he can put em back together anyway. And if he actively has beef with Mike and isn’t particularly close to him, I can see him not being all too worried about Mike getting to finish out his adult life if it helps further the whole rebuilding the family thing in the end.
I get MatPat wanting to get this done, but I think it’s an insult to the creators to do a multi-hour reaction but not even finish the source theory. I’m not just talking about skipping the epilogue (though that is part of it) but also flipping by added text like at 59:53. It just seems like he should trim his own comments a bit more before just cutting off the original creator’s presentation.
It’s the equivalent of cutting someone off mid-sentence to inject your own arguments, then never letting them finish because “Oops we’re out of time.” It’s infuriating. If you’re tight on time, trim yourself before trimming your guest.
A small detail that I believe Matpat might have missed or forgotten. The narrative headcanon he has based on the books about William dying and THEN conducting experiments with Remnant doesn't hold up in the games. In FNAF 3, 30 years later, we are told that Springtrap was found in an old backroom. Why would William get back online, do experiments, and then go back to the backroom to be found and added as an attraction to Fazbear Frights?
EXACTLY!!! 👏👏👏
this exactly. a mat pat theory buster is that if matt is saying William came back online after getting sprung to do his experiments. then it would have to be AFTER FNAF three, where he would go to patch himself up with golden freddy, but that wouldn't work because sister location has to happen BEFORE that according to matts idea of Michael exploring the bunker when his dad went missing for a few days. because at that point all of the animatronics would have been released back out into the world. there wouldnt be any animatronics left to inject anything into. UNLESS there was experimentation during the time molten freddy, scrap baby, and afton all went to the bunker for parts at the same time since molten freddy had to get the fun time freddy mask. but i think thats too far a leap in logic.
@@trainstorm Why wouldnt it work that william dies, michael goes into the bunker because william is missing in sisterlocation and then william finally gets found in the secret storage room in fanf 3?
@@lexa2310 it can I guess. But I'm saying it can't if Matt is insisting that the robots get experimented on after William gets trapped in the backroom. Because by Fnaf three the events of sister location would have happened, leaving no robots left inside the bunker for remnant goop injection.... This is just my opinion though c:
Honestly I feel like the point of FNAF is less 'Making all the evidence fit together logically' and moreso 'Fit together in a narratively satisfying way based on how Scott wanted to take the latest game'
And then there's Steel Wool wanting to put things in certain places and add in their own two cents, but ultimately;
I think this is the most satisfying timeline, especially with Michael being the Vengeful
If you bring Scott into this, he has said multiple times that the first 3 games was the original story, after that he made a mistake and made the story too broad. The story is, the animatronics are haunted and they were killed by a guy wearing a costume, that guy is referenced as purple guy, the killer. In fnaf 2 we get to see his first victim, the puppet who helps free the souls of the animatronics, as we see in FNAF 3, that goes deeper with introducing us more personally to the killer, and then it all burns down. The reason it went on was because fans weren't happy with Springtrap's jumpscare. However, as far as Scott has provided proof, through the movie or clues, it goes against their theory, and more into that vengeful spirit is one of the missing children.
In defense of Child Michael: rhe hair is easy to explain because hair often does get darker over time. As for why a child? Because, Michael was the spitting image of his father once he got older. But back when he was young, and blonde, and INNOCENT, he is able to truly free himself of William and take control.
Seems like Matt needs to rewatch their video all in one sitting on his own time bc he forgets things they covered in previous segments
Something about that puppet line in Custom Night: Saying "I don't hate you, but you need to stay out my of way" is not something you'll say to your killer(Because of the first half), neither to any other of the MCI(Because of second half), no matter how vengeful you they were, after all, is Charlie's purpose to save them. It doesn't make sense for she to say "Stay out of my way" to Cassidy (whether it's the Crying Child or one of the MCI), but it does for someone like Michael, someone that never harm any of them(At least not intentionally), but it is related to the one who did, or because he's doing something she doesn't approve.
this!
Adding to the line that N. freadbear at 1:07:20 'Let me put you back together, then take you apart all over again' It may also refer to the monologue in sister location where Michael says "I put her back together, just like you asked me to", that implies that William said it at some point to Michael, so CC would not be the only one who has heard the phrase.
That’s a good point but I don’t know what Micheal would be standing in the way of. What is puppet trying to do in Custom Night? If Micheal was getting in the way of the puppet keeping William in eternal purgatory, that wouldn’t be very vengeful spirit of him. But I like the idea of him being stuck there in some capacity with the rest of them.
@@tingzzer3228 thisss
@@_lady_melz It could be that the vengeful spirit is keeping _everybody_ that died in the fire in eternal purgatory, not just William. And if the puppets still Charlie’s spirit, she’ll be trying to bust everybody out of UCN. In all likelihood, she doesn’t hate the person who’s torturing Afton, but she wants them to stay out of her way so she can get the rest of the spirits out.
MatPat: We know Afton has a grudge against Michael, does experiment on him, torments and tortures him… but he wouldn’t send him to die.
… … y-you just proved and enforced their point even more 😂😂
yeaaaa, I agree.
Me: *stops the video for 5 minutes to tell you that none of this was ever confirmed whatsoever*
Someone will get it
I think it comes to show how he can't comprehend bad parents when it starts to go beyond surface level. Which is great tbh! He has such good parents he can't fathom it.
@@Eldr1tchGl1tch I keep seeing this being brought up, and while that's probably partially true, Matt has been holding onto the belief that Afton is some kind of sick, twisted family man for a while now - I mean, look at the narrative he builds in the Ultimate Timeline series.
@@finixmoon127 I also believe he's some sick twisted family man but the thing is a sick twisted family man will have intense favourtism specialyl after everything that happened to his kids.
One thing that goes in favor of dual process is, if Golden Freddy was the vengeful spirit how would he know and why would he include phone guy and the phantoms into the character roster? those recording and those characters have all been seen and heard by Michael at some point.
Watching Matpat twist himself into a pretzel to grumpycat his way out of seriously considering Michael as the angry spirit was painful. Here's another point no one has mentioned: the resentment. The all-consuming anger behind the vengeful spirit's single-minded quest for revenge is not the kind that sprouts overnight. It's not the kind of anger one would feel toward some random stranger who killed them, nor is it the kind of rage a 10 year-old, in their very short exposure, would feel even to a terrible and murderous father. This kind of hatred, the kind that makes one be ok with burning for all eternity, just to ensure that their target burns with them, is born from deep-seated resentment. The kind that develops over many years, many decades, of mistreatment, lies, betrayal, and, ultimately, death. The strongest evidence -- your Occam's Razor -- for Michael being the vengeful spirit, is that he's the only one of William's victim's to have lived long enough to reach, and recognize, that level of betrayal and resentment.
Well said!
23:00 fun fact: nitrogen is almost always stored in liquid form and evaporated to flow throughout labs like in sister location or ruin, so the nitrogen is likely liquid that’s being used to produce gas :)
That's a great point of evidence , I hope this gets mor likes
As someone who works with liquid nitrogen a lot I nearly had an aneurism hearing him talk about it…
@@braydenbarney3158 As someone who knows nothing about that topic, I was also confused as to what his problem even was.
@clowdthebear you're right, especially because liquids have a smaller volume than gas so storing it in liquid form allows to store more nitrogen at once
What kind of lab is in Sister Location and Ruin again? I ask because a testing laboratory tends to use gas canisters to store nitrogen gas because it is cheaper to pump directly from a gas canister compared to storing it as a liquid and then converting to nitrogen gas. Speaking from my experience.
Ok but the “I should be dead but I’m not” and “I’m going to come find you” reminds me a lot of Frankenstein. That’s how the story is framed, through the undead monster searching for the doctor.
You’re right!!!! And both the monster and Michael deserve to get their vengeance
When Michael starts this "convo" he confirms that "they were all down there just like you said" implying that Michael told him what he was walking into. William would have no idea about Ennard or Michael potentially being scooped, so how could Michael see it as a setup?
It almost sounds like Michael is reporting his findings to William, that he's going to come find him for the next step of the plan. And the irony would be that William's dead trapped behind a wall. But Henry also says he had a way out for Michael before he starts the fire. If Michael was truly evil and on William's side, Henry wouldn't have been sympathizing with him at all
Just more bad writing by Scott by making that dialogue so wishy washy
and Victor Frankenstein is, at least symbolically, a father figure to the Creature
Fnaf does make a lot references to old gothic literature
@@Parallelocam you are forgetting henry as and adult has had a realization about afton to see what he is what he has done and would see mike As a broken child being brainwashed never having a chance to be different.
im so sad he didnt react to the homage to cassidy at the end. It would help out the lack of cassidy as the vengeful spirit and help mat understand more. Anyways thanks so much for reacting to this!!!
Seeing ppl "correct" mat and try to make him understand dual's points better warms my heart
I'm glad no one is mean about it; a lot of awe it's cute how he can't fathom what an abuser can do which is correct. he seems to be having a very hard time XD
Feels great getting to see a man in his 30s losing his sanity even after retirement. Truly remarkable.
lemon demon mentioned
Bruh MatPat is not middle aged 😭😭
Middle aged????? Dude he's not even 40 😂
How old do you think he is 😭
bro i keep getting mentioned everytime someone comments because i was the first gaddam
I feel like assuming that afton is a sane man/ non psychopath who wouldn't discard someone he's been using when he's done with them is wild. If he doesn't forgive Micheal and considers him less than because of everything, it makes sense to me
And hes been using him as fodder for fnaf 1/2
You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. He clearly cares for his kids on some level. Explaining away why he killed Michael with "Oh he's a psychopath idk" doesn't make sense.
@@knaughta.masso-kist5944 Except he clearly DOESN'T care about Michael since he risks his death sending him to work in the location in FNAF 1 and possibly part of FNAF 2.
It's quite easy to say that, while he might care about his kids, he doesn't care for the one who he blames for the death of his youngest son.
it's not just "greetings from the fire" putting the vengeful spirit in the fire, the next line is "He tried to release us, but I'm not going to let that happen, I will hold you here I will keep you here no matter how many times they burn us"
But _who_ would be the 'they' mentioned, if Michael _is_ one of the Two (2) people who burnt them?
1:15:38 but them you have to assume that EVERY animatronic in ucn has a soul, so he's killed even MORE people that we never seen? when did he do that?
and how did this souls got in to like, jack o chica? the nightmares? wouldn't it make more sense that most of the animatronics there are a creation of the vengeful spirit to torment William?
So there is a key point to Michael being the vengeful spirit. The Nightmare Animatronics appear in UCN and ONLY MICHAEL would know what those animatronics look like in their nightmarish appearances. William couldn’t have known what the Nightmares look like and no other spirit could’ve either, so Michael HAS to be the vengeful spirit for the Nightmares to have appeared in UCN.
This is a good point
Exactly!
I think people have to analyze how all of this works before saying a statement like that, for example, the vengeful spirit created the place and the animatronics in there, did they also create each animatronic's personality and voice-lines? How does the vengeful spirit know Chica was the first then? If that was the child spirit themselves talking, does that mean they're in there too? Going along in tormeting William? Does that mean they didn't move on? Or did the vengeful spirit somehow get everyone's memory for some reason?? If that's true then even someone who is not Michael or even CC can create them (and the phantoms). Things like that have to be analyzed imo
Edit: Also the Halloween update animatronics from FNAF4 got made canon, wonder what's that about
@@mariotheundyinghe could know that chica was the first through afton himself
Crying child saw them aswell but a more interesting point would be the Inclusion of the phantoms
I think a mistake May makes in this video is assuming Afton wants his family alive because he loves them or cares for them. This is a narcissistic serial killer we are talking about he isn’t being his family back for any love ring reason he’s doing it for his pride. Both his kids died at young ages due to his negligence and that is a mark on his record a wound to his pride. Killing Mike is so easy because he’s doing it intentionally and because Mike’s involvement in his brothers death. Mike brought about that wound to his pride because William likely left him in charge and it makes him look like a neglectful father to the outside observer.
We don't have any reason to believe Afton is narcissistic. Serial killers can still love their families and never want to hurt them, have you ever watched Dexter?
The movie supports William's narcissism and disregard for his children as well.
@@Parallelocamthat’s not a good argument .. dexters motives vs aftons are not the same at all
@@ParallelocamBut majority of serial killers are narcissistic and think everything they do is justified. Also, Movie afton manipilates his daughter and then stabs her. Its clear hes a narcissist. He even tells his child "ill put you back together" through the fredbear plush rather than telling him "it's ok son you'll be ok", showing that he was confident and so arrogant he believed he could bring someome back from death.
@@bonD6002it also showed how he didn't even view his children as human. You don't say something like that unless you think of your children as broken toys or objects.
I'm confused. Is it so hard to believe that William, a person who doesn't really care that much for Michael (going to an extent to state that he is not his child even though they look 1 to 1), a person who saw Michael as nothing more as a tool, would send Michael down to SL bunker for YET ANOTHER task he has for him. He sees that task as a higher priority than Michael's life. If he keeps being an obidient tool and does the task, great! if he dies, oh well, guess I'll have to do it myself
1:02:15 “No matter HOW MANY times, they burn US.”
It’s right there. The vengeful spirit was in not just one fire with Afton, but two. FNAF3 and Pizzeria Simulator.
1:07:18 “I put her back together again, just like you asked me to.” Micheal not only heard that phrase, he’s done it before.
Funny already confirmed Andrew says he attracted himself to William to keep him alive
Andrew literally with William fnaf 3 and 6
This how William heat still works in fnaf 6
1:05:05 Matt doesn't know many blonde people I guess. It's really common to be blonde at a young age but eventually get brown hair. (I've seen/heard of this transition happening anywhere from ages 6 to 20, but the range is definitely wider.) Point is the hair color thing is not a disqualifier.
Wasnt he blonde as a kid too?
I thought his comment towards this was so funny considering he did an ENTIRE THEORY dedicated to the genetics of why his son Ollie is blonde when both Mat and Steph are brunettes 😅
Yeah it happened to me too, I used to be blonde until I was like 7?
This happened to two of my cousins. They had blond hair when they were very little, but by about age 7 their hair had become a very dark shade of brown
It’s certainly not a disqualifier, but I think it’s another Occam’s Razor situation. Physical traits are such important symbols in these games (Baby’s eyes being the most famous example) that it feels odd for there to be a change for no narrative reason.
1:02:20 Orville's possessed line was "I will hold you here - I will keep you here - no matter how many times they burn us."
US.
As in, "I was burnt in at least one fire, alongside William".
1:07:11 Like they said, Michael repeats the phrase "put [blank] back together" (in his message to William in Sister Location: "I found her. I put her back together."). Since Michael had just said his final goodbye to Cassidy, he likely would've still been in the room when his father said that line over the plush - this isn't another case of "Circus Baby only strikes when alone".
Great catch!
The only flaw is that the first fire was started by Michael, as far as we know.
@@homerman76 I think when they say, "they" they just say it as treat, like, Hes just referencing the fact they were burn toguether in multiple ocations, the treat is like "i will never let you go even if we burn again"
She talks about "Unless MIchael had seen something. Seen too much." Did they completely forget the previous episode where the theory talked about Michael had probably found where Cassidy was buried. You know, the one thing that kept Cassidy as a 'missing child' and William's innocence. He DID know too much. Thats why William tortured him into the crazy level of obedience that he did.
Once more there are moments in this reaction video where if they remembered things from the previous video, or if they had just watched a few more minutes they would've had a lot of the answers that they were like "Oh, this isn't answered". ARGH!
Also. The blond > brunette. Thats pretty common. I was blond as a child and very quickly grew out of it to a dark brown hair. People's hair color can change.
1:07:30 William said it to the crying child, yes, but Mike could’ve been standing right there in the hospital room when he said it. We know Mike apologizes to C.C. and then William speaks. Why is the assumption made that Michael couldn’t hear the person next to him, or that Mike left the room?
Michael also uses the same wording during his little "I'm going to come find you" speech after you beat Sister Location's custom night on very hard mode. Michael point blank says that William told him to go put Elizabeth back together. "I put her back together, just like you asked me to."
Honestly, regardless of if their theory in its entirety is actually correct. I do much prefer their idea that Michael is the Vengeful spirit.
I agree but it just doesn’t work from an evidence standpoint
@@KanderUdonFriendly reminder that we’re dealing with a series that had its lore made up on the fly, so maybe cut them some slack?
@@TheTownHeifer i mean I like the theory overall I’m just saying that the idea that Michael is the VS is like saying that Harry potter is Voldemort. Ok maybe thats a bad example. Its like saying harry potter is dumbledore, it just is clearly against the evidence that we have.
@@KanderUdonand that's the thing about fnaf lore in general
depending on the interpretation, you can literally shapeshift the lore into anything ^^"
@@KanderUdon for me, its the fact that a random kid had more anger than the other victims rather than Williams own children
As a people pleasing least favorite child, my mother would def send me away to be scooped, even if she loves me sometimes. She has told me multiple times that in a zombie apocalypses, she's nocking me down so she can escape. The sibling ranking system do be like that sometimes.
Your mother is a pitiful person. Rest assured she will never be truly happy
That's a horrible thing to be told. Ouch
That sucks
That's horrible but also its so funny to me that all of us traumatized by parental abuse are Iike "Yeah a father like that would send his kid to the death"
Meanwhile Matt does not get that because he really really loves his kid and would do anything to protect him
Disgusting. Hope you get outta there
I will say that the type of abuse and trauma that stripped Micheal of his childhood and a good amount of his adulthood reverting him to a child in death would not surprise me. It'd basically be truly healing his inner child and getting a redo. Also it's possible when he was very young he was blonde and his hair just darkened as he got to his teenage years, that happens pretty often
The reason the funtimes didn't just pile into one of the two other employees they killed is because those employees were specifically used to fool the security system into thinking they were present on stage. Therefore they couldn't use them.
The vampire says “the baby isn’t mine” even though the baby is a vampire and all logic would say it is his. Could this be representing William emotionally disowning Michael after he gets crying child killed OR that despite them looking alike William and Michael are not related? 🤔
My only problem with golden Freddy being the vengeful spirit is that for him to create such an elaborate scheme to turture William he would've required such a mental capacity that I don't think that as a child who died barely knowing the world would've had.
This is actually huge and a really big deal lol this is such a good point
Yeah that’s why I think it’s Michael as well
If thats true then the child in the fnaf books wouldn't have been able to keep William alive to torture him in his mind either
@@bonD6002 cc was in a coma and his frontal lobe was damaged from the bite, i think thats worth remembering. i dunno much about the books but there would be a big difference between the two. i think cc would be very lost and disoriented because of this and possibly because he still hasnt found his body, having golden freddy still be a massive part of the games (because he is williams son) while being a backseat character fits well alongside that imo.
@@fatlizard_ Thats true. I also think there wouldn't be a point bringing back a basically brain dead person (the frontal lobe is responsible for basically everything important), so William must've just been like "lemme turn you into a robot", thats why he says "I will put you back together" which is something you'd say to a machine. Also in this theory video when she revealed his dead human body was in the locked box, I honestly thought everyone already knew that because of the fnaf books when Charlie was hidden in the box while she was replaced by a robot version
"canonically it's behind Afton's bookcase"
My god, William Afton has a batcave.
1:18:04 As someone who has been in a coma, it's not the same thing as being braindead. You can still toss & turn when you're in a coma, like when you're asleep.
The way Connie says “that’s right it’s time for Henry to get his @$$ back in the story, get on in here !” makes me giggle every time i hear it 💀💀
45:00 wait a minute. In those dracula shorts doesn't the mother insist that the baby is draculas while dracula denies it? Wouldn't that indicate that the baby is his and he's disowning it like william disowned michael? Could it be a way of saying william no longer viewed michael as his son after michael got CC killed?
Pretty sure one of the animators came out and said that those shorts were just nonsense and not lore specific
@Parallelocam Where is your proof of this? As far as I know, only one animator made those shorts, and haven't found anything about them saying whether they were Canon or not
Mat let me introduce you to a concept called narcissistic parents, favouritism and parents who wished you didn't exist.
The more Matt tries to deny this theory, the less sense he makes. I like Matt and all but he's really gotta learn to stop criticizing and just listen with an open mind, THEN pick holes later. He's clearly already convinced from the beginning of watching these that what he "knows" is true. Sadly, that led to many moments of him outright denying any point he didnt already consider and trying to explain around it (which got less and less convincing over time). That ALSO led to him outright missing crucial points that were made in Dual-Process-Theory's video. Sorry man, but I'm not convinced this time.
I still get the idea that MatPat is too attached to his own theories, despite saying he would approach this with an open mind.
A lot of his "rebuttals" are based on the idea that his own theories are fact, despite DualProcessTheory clearly stating at the start that they were approaching the theory video from the very beginning of the lore.
I agree. I love MatPat and that's no hate against him, but I do think in a lot of fandoms with a lot of theories, people get attached to the ones that have been there for a long time, and I think MatPat falls into this mindset. No judgement to him, and he seems open enough to new ideas, but it also comes down to the desire to fall back on what's comfortable as opposed to a new idea that hasn't been explored before or enough.
I think he has a point with DPT's timeline on when William gets springlocked and CC being kidnapped after falling intona coma not being the most intuitive and natural, but when has the intuitive answer ever been right in this series lol.
I agree. Plus he keeps talk about what is narratively satisfying. But this Theory is veeerryyy satisfying to me. More than any other theory I have seen in a while. So, I think, as much as I LOVE watching Matt, weather it's narratively satisfying to him or not, doesn't change what can be true or not.
I see him at least liking the idea of CC and Cassidy being the same and wanting that to be true (and there'll definitely be a Game Theory video talking about it to try to either confirm it, or to debunk it completely), I say that it is an open mind, especially with other theorists debunking it when mentioning it (no hate to them, they just think it's plain wrong based on their evidence, and that's fine, as they have a good argument)
I noticed this too. Some of the things he says were NEVER confirmed outside of his own theories. It's easy to get lost in the sauce when you're so deep in thought about everything, but honestly I say go for it. If Scott is too much of a coward to confirm or deny anything ever and just gives us question after question with no real solid answer, I say let MatPat create the lore for us. Scott's idea of good writing fell off a cliff once the books started anyway and I feel like the theories are just better than the reality every time anyway
This is unfortunately where I think Mats method of watching these things causes some problems.
Iirc the explanation for why the souls recognise Afton now wasn’t some handwavey thing it was specifically that while he was wearing his Springbonnie suit when he killed them he wasn’t when he dismantled them.
been saying this since part 1. DPT video makes much more sense when you watch it as a whole in one go. Mat having to pause and take a few days off away from it definitely has hindered his understanding of the video in its entirety. But even in retirement, he is a busy man.
The tone of voice changes alot at 1.5 speed ngl, it was much more comprehensible when I watched it normally.
They should have made that more clear then. With such a long video you have to take into account the people aren't going to watch it all in one go.
@@knaughta.masso-kist5944that sounds like a you and matpat problem then. They make it pretty clear that there is a set script and they want to do it all in one go. If they did it in the way you are suggesting, the video would be multiple videos
@@grandempressvicky6387 All they would need is a quick, "They recognised William because he wasn't wearing his Spring Bonnie suit this time.". Instead they mentioned it matter-of-factly, dismissively, hence "handwavey".
a small tiny point that could be made: mat was confused as to why william would call out to henry and michael if they were the ones torturing him, but it comes down to dual process theory's base idea for this theory and what many other people are reiterating, which is that he is an abuser attempting to find control however he can. even though he knows they are the ones in control, it is his instinct as an abuser to call out to them and try to manipulate them, especially since he has the least amount of power in the ucn situation
Its clear that Matt doesn't know much on abusers (said with love cause thats great honestly, just not for this context). William kept Mike alive because he was USEFUL, but just like Vanessa in the movies, he has no trouble sacrificing Mike if it gets him what he wants. Mike was only around to help William, and when he was more useful dead, he was sent down. Abusers are very known for turning on those close to them, even if they were loyal for many years (see Voldemort and Snape)
I think they're mostly right. It's what Mr. Hippo was talking about, "Focus on the story without losing yourself in minor details. Or you'll drive yourself crazy." Paraphrasing.
The overwhelming amount of Golden Freddy-VS connections isn't exactly "minor details"...
@@finixmoon127 "Mostly right."
@@metalmadness5851 Well considering how the video hinges on the 2 main points ("CC = Cassidy" and "VC = Michael"), I'd say that at best they're maybe 60% right, which to be fair is still very good for a theory that throws a lot of old preconceptions out of the window
I see why DPT is saying with the whole William sending Mike down, since I view it simply as William saying "If you die, that sucks" but justifying him it in Elizabeth being valued as more pure in his eyes & also that it proves all of his struggles properly worked with his murders showing a retrieved Elizabeth. So using Mike for that makes complete sense to me when it has so much purpose and he cannot die before he sees it was all worth it.
In short:
Micheal is the oldest child, Elizabeth is the youngest, and the stereotypes are true
CC is also very much the middle child considering William let Micheal bully him
i think it’s just the abusive hypocrisy in william. michael killed his other young child, therefore, michael is less worthy than his younger children
@@animuswonder Yeah, I know, but I also found that the order in which they were born and the way William treats them lines up pretty well with the stereotypes (oldest being commanded around/least favorite, middle being ignored and neglected, youngest being coddled) interesting
We also should not forget that in FNAF movie William stabs/kills Vanessa, his only child adult who did his bidding all this time just like game!Mike. We are not 100% sure if she is the only child but it is heavily implied in the movie
Something I wanted to bring up is that up until this point, Mike has been doing what William asked of him all this time and following his orders as the books imply, this may well have been like "This is your final act of loyalty" type-thing, and William simply saw Mike as a tool to get what he wants done without putting himself in harm's way.
I think a core reason to explain off william sacrificing michael for his other kids can be put simply as A. he resent him and blames him for being the reason his other son died and that he became a serial killer, which also lead to his daughter's death and B. To cover the tracks. Michael knows waaaaaaay too much.
One thing to note;
Michael has been systematically abused by William, and psycological damage that may follow with a narcisistic parent, who put his kids who died on a pedestal, while blaming Mike for putting his brother in that situation.
Every bad outcome William had trying to bring Cassidy back to life, was taken out on Michael.
Michael was not in cahoots with William;
Michael was a scared boy, living in an abusive household for YEARS if not decades, never being allowed to heal from it
He's been through so much psycological torture (FNAF 4), thatt any escape from it, he'd take. And by SL he could now also help his sister? That's the first light at the end of this endless tunnel
Considering cassidy explicitly gets their soul freed by the happiest day, and the vengeful spirit explicitly stays trapped with William. I dont know how you reconcile cassidy being the vengeful spirit without a lot of handwaving.
Works fine if it's Michael.
Agreed, though I will say happiest day doesn't seem to be canon. Everyone is still around after (molten Freddy, puppet in lefty) so I think that ending wasn't canon
@CottonCandySharks isn't it a release of the remnant and what's left is the agony?
Or am I fully headcannoning that?
@@CottonCandySharks I’ve actually been thinking about this a bit. Rewatch the Happiest Day cutscene again. The puppet’s mask falls significantly slower than the others, and hits the ground last. I’m pretty sure that’s signifying that the puppet stuck around after Happiest Day (and is why the Puppet is in FNaF 6 while the rest of the missing kids aren’t).
im pretty sure happiest day is the good ending of that game and the bad ending is the canon ending. we know for a fact the spirits did not all move on lell.
While i agree that the jacko-chica might not refer specifically to the fnaf 6 fire, i do think that the elephant animatronic (dont remember his name) saying "he tried to release you, he tried to release us" and saying "no matter how many times they burn us" implies they were in the fire. I dont think it really changes anything but thought i would point that out :)
That elephant line is the most disturbing one, i would not want to be William in that situation
At 48:29 : when talking about why Afton would willingly let Mike die: In psychological conditions/terms irl, if Afton is this psychotic/narcissist parent, he has no real empathy for his kids. He only has empathy for his own selfish desires (recreating life/bringing back Elisabeth). Narcissist parents typically have a favorite child, and one that is their punching bag/scape goat. Mike could be that scape goat. That abusive parent will manipulate that child to do their bidding and will do everything in their power to make the child think they are always in the wrong. I could see Williams motive being a selfish one, and Mike after all of the trauma he endured was broken by this final act. He realized his father was the villain all along. (Regardless of the take of is mike really his kid?). Mike now even as a shell of a human wants revenge.
My issue with Matpat here is that he's trying to argue that the vengeance enacted on William could have been from anyone, while actively talking about how there isn't enough supporting evidence to say it is Michael and not CC.
Ignoring the fact that DPT had just given many, many reasons why it isn't just *any* spirit. The evidence he then goes on to ridicule. Yes, it could be flimsy evidence, but it's still evidence. Which is far more than what we get for any other spirit in the series. They're either gone by then, or already done their job and paid their dues. The only one who didn't was Michael.
If we take into account the fact that CC was in a coma, and the springlocking was Michael's fault, what evidence do we have to state that he would have even known that it was William doing the things he did?
The only person with the motive, age, logical reasoning, and history (huge emphasis on HISTORY) of abuse from Afton, is Michael. Not CC or their sister. Only Michael.
I would much rather believe that a tortured, abused, neglected, TOOL (not son) of the main killer, who he gaslit and forced into actively helping him in the killings, would want more revenge than the golden child too young to even understand what had even happened in that time.
Matpat really needs to sit and take a long second watch of this theory and stop ridiculing it every three seconds so he can actually understand what they had said.
michael outright says "they thought i was you". meaning he looks just like william. do you know how hard it would be for william to find a kid to kidnap who would grow up and end up looking just like him? they both look alike AND they both have the accent. i think michael was like a harry potter type character and was raised and meant to die at the proper moment. in this case,william decided that the moment would be down where baby and the funtimes were
Ok, I agree with you on everything else, but… the accent isn’t an argument, those things aren’t genetic. He’d have it regardless.
While I agree that id be very hard to abduct a kid that ends up looking like you after puberty but I dont think he was specifically raised as a sacrificial goat. It seems more likely that that is just what he became later on becouse he was easily accessible.
@@Kayta-Linda british accents specifically are genetic
@@adora_was_taken That's wholly untrue- accents are always a product of environment, not genetics. Speech impediments and language disorders can be genetic, but not the specific accent/regionalisms
@@RaeGreywood nope, british accents (and only british accents) are genetic
Nothing in FNAF is airtight, but I will offer this: There's considerably more evidence that Michael is a revenge-driven Lich than there is a second spirit in Golden Freddy that only opts to speak up in Ultimate Custom Night about how they are particularly put out by all of this unfortunate robot business. I'm curious to hear if the team can come up with stronger evidence the other way someday.
I NEED Scott to come out and tell us if UCN is canon or not. If it's not canon, everything begins to make a lot more sense
Scott already confirmed ucn is canon and make story the man in room 1280 about little boy keep William alive and torture him@@Parallelocam
I disagree. Where is the evidence for either of these theories? They are both pretty much purely speculative.
@knaughta.masso-kist5944 Micheal was scooped, spent several days as a skinsuit and SOMEHOW got up. That's just... flat out the ending of Sister Location, he IS a supernatural being of some kind after that. Since every supernatural being in this franchise is some level of hostile to a murderous degree to someone or another, it's reasonable to assume the undead Micheal is too.
@@dustinfelix3495
I've always assumed Michael is still alive because he was injected with remnant via the scooper, which is in the blueprints in egg baby. Throughout the series we see the animatronics bodies being possessed, but with Michael it's just his own spirit possessing and controlling his own body. And he's able to function because there are still parts of ennard inside of him. When ennard got barfed out, notice how only the wires and head escaped. The rest is still inside Michael controlling his limbs, and what Michael's brain would have told his actual organs to do, it tells the endo parts to do instead prob
I think I fundamentally disagree with the idea that William can't have both intended to keep Michael alive and conditioned to obedience for decades AND deliberately sent him into sister location to die. That's _decades_ of time that passes - motivations evolve and change over time, and that's a lot of time. Perhaps William's outlook changed somehow, perhaps he reached criticality in terms of blaming Michael for the loss of his other children. Perhaps it's as simple as Michael outlived his usefulness. It's very clear by the way William treats and conditions Michael and then sends him in to do the jobs he does across the games that Michael is - at best - a useful tool for William. It's very possible Michael dies during any of the games where he's acting as the player character. Every time the player loses, Michael dies. So it's clear already that William isn't especially _bothered_ by the outcome of Michael's death. That William's kept him alive as a tool does nothing to preclude the concept he'd send Michael down to die in sister location.
Hells, it could have even been 'he might survive but he'll probably die and either way that's a win'.
01:02:33 matt kinda ignored kinda forgot the line where dual process put there that says "no matter how many times THEY BURN US"
like, they didn't just put the jack o chica there
For that line by N. Fredbear, they’re referring to the Sister Location monologue where Michael says “I put her back together, just like you asked me to” implying that William used the wording “put back together” when sending Michael to his death. It would’ve been more obvious if they replayed that audio after the voice line.
That’s possible, but seems rather unlikely to me. “I will put you back together” in Fnaf 4 was spoken through the Fredbear plushie, and so it being repeated by Fredbear seems like a reference to that scene specifically. Good point, though.
@@feralhawg867 Michael most likely heard this twice. A) in the hospital room as they were talking to cassidy/cc (remember michael said sorry, and then william talked about putting him back together as he flatlined) they most likely were in the same room. B) and then when he was sent to the bunker. Which is why michael said "I put her back together, just like you asked me to. Michael hasn't heard the phrase once, but twice at this point.
59:15 "I will hold you here. I will keep you here, no matter how many times... they burn us."
There are only 2 people who have been burned multiple times. William and Michael.
Vengeful spirit has to be Mike.
Mind, I like the theory, but ID's Fantasy brought up something important that I need should be considered:
"No matter how many times... *they* burn us."
Michael burnt Fazbear Frights, and then Henry burnt Freddy Fazbear's Pizza Place.
Michael is being 'othered'. He could've said "no matter how many times we burn", but instead, there's a 'they' and an 'us', and we've already established Michael is responsible for at least one of the fires.
Unless you think that somebody else burnt Fazbear Frights, but I think that would take away from Michael's revenge plot, yk?
Just something to consider, because I haven't seen anyone else point it out in the comments.
@carimeslockdownedtree2654 I understand your point, but I think Mike has maybe changed his revenge plans.
Maybe the original revenge plan was burning his father and that why he burned Fazbears Frights, but since it didn't work cause Burntrap came back in Fnaf 6, he decided that eternal torture was the way to go. And, at the end of the day, he was still burned at the end of fnaf 6, so he can still be part of the "us". And I also think, the emphasize on the "us" is because they burned together at the end.
Eh, that's not as conclusive as you make it out to be since there are other ways to interpret that statement.
@@homerman76 That is literally 99.99% of everything that goes on in this ridiculously nebulous franchise.
@@carimeslockdownedtree2654 I thought the second "they" was just still talking about Henry, "They" sometimes can be used in a person you dont know their gender, i dont know how this would aply to Henry since michael know hes a boy, but i think "they" its just still talking about henry
48:31
I don't think it's odd, William could just be thinking "i already tortured him, made he do things for me and now he can die bringing his sister back, bringing the GOOD kid, he can sacrifice him and atone for the sin of killing his brother by bringing back his sister"
because willian views Elizabeth as obedient, good, she admires him, and Michael don't
So, to be clear, Mat is saying that William (1) got sprung and died, subsequently possessing his own dead body and the animatronic parts integrated with it, (2) was boarded up for thirty years to rot in a back room until they pulled his body out to use an an attraction where he was subsequently (3) burned by Mike at a horror house, his already decayed body being further mutilated beyond recognition... and THEN (4) got the idea after seeing the ghosts decades earlier to pitch new animatronics to investors at a meeting, and THEN build the Funtimes using the remnant/agony taken from the OGs after the MCI, and THEN had his young daughter get killed by Baby? Because that's what his explanation sounds like, since he seemed to omit the several _decades_ William was missing and presumed dead, literally trapped in a closet. Book canon, movie canon, and game canon are _very_ different.
One thing about mat's theory that doesn't really make sense to me in a narrative way is Afton continuing experiments after he's been springlocked. The idea that the dead guy stuck in the big clunky suit has the ability to do all that just seems strange to me. Not impossible for sure, but it just doesn't sound right... I don't know how to further explain it myself though.
Exactly my thought! if he was killed by the ghosts (spring locked) and is trapped until FNAF 3 (Fone guy says that the secret place is closed - the phone dude find him there YEARS after) sister location only can happens after FNAF 3 but in FNAF 3 Michael is there and he is already a 'Zombie' (special cutscene from SL Custom Night)
I agree. That part always felt weird to me too.
More than that! Even if we *somehow* handwave away his physical ability to do so… the biggest problem still remains! The Fazbear Frights crew *literally* found him still stuck in that back room! There’s NO WAY he ever got out of there!
Wait but that's DPT's theory right ? Not Matt's ? He was literally pointing that out
@finixmoon127 Nope, that's on Matpat. He is saying that's how he'd go with a theory, since he believes that the only reason for Michael going to the bunker is if William was impaired in some way, like if he was in prison or too busy dying. DPT only said "William asked Michael to check on Baby" while Michael still was under his father's thumb
note like, frame 1 of this: the reason they don't know afton before now is that he killed them wearing a mask, but under this theory, he killed the kids at the fnaf2 location *unmasked*; the spirits saw him commit the crimes and now know he is their murderer.
Charlie absolutely saw William's face. She was banging on the windows of the restaurant because she knew she was in trouble, and William steps out of the car as purple guy, not springbonnie
The rest I will give you
@@Parallelocam sure yes but the point was being made for the MCI kids specifically, and why they only become agressive to william after being injected into the funtimes. Its because up until fnaf2 (in their interp), they never saw his face, they didn't know he was their killer.
Also when he destroyed their animatronic bodies he was unmasked, and when he injected their remnant into funtimes
@@Parallelocam I kind of assumed the point was he just walked up behind her and instantly killed her, so she never saw who her killer was. She was banging on the window because she was locked out in the rain and wanted to be let back in.
I’m going to keep saying this various places- hey, I think the prompt for the foxy grid is asking for a nonogram. It’s a puzzle book and that’s a kind of puzzle that uses numbers to produce 8-bit style images
I really like this idea
Just a small quip, people in comas do in fact twitch and move. Those who are not brain dead can and do respond to pain (unless they're paralyzed at the spot that is being stimulated aside from phantom pain) and twitching is usually the response. So for Cassidy's twitching in Golden Freddy as he's dying is definitely valid.