Its Hip to be square
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- A quick video to accompany my article in Oct 2017 issue of Cutting Tool Engineering Magazine. In this video we show how you can create a perfect master square reference with common shop tools and without using a calibration standard.
Still mind boggling how simple stuff like that and level calibration is.
I discovered your channel a few days ago, I’m a race car mechanic from Argentina working around Europe and i love Lathe, machining and precision works but never got fully into it (just the basic shaft and repairs to fit in the cars, so i come from work, grab a beer, relax and enjoy learning with your videos, keep up the good work!!!
Thanks Tom, you showed this simular method in a previous video but not on it's own. Thanks for the video Tom, I always enjoy them. Steve Summers
This video was extremely helpful as usual. In my wannabe workshop true square can be elusive. Now to dig out that seldom used surface gauge and my "good" ball bearing. Thank you very much for sharing.
Thank you so much for this video! I've been trying to figure out how to measure squareness in my home shop without buying a reference square, and this is the answer to my problems!
Very very clever! Thanks for sharing this, Tom.
That's pretty slick. Having just gotten my first surface plate, I have much to learn. Thanks for sharing!
That's a nifty trick for us tool deprived guys jim
It's so simple, its genius! Now I must make a squarness comparator, or find one.
Thank you. Now I think I understand. Other youtubers never quite got the point across. Show me works so much better than tell me. Thanks again, Chuckie
Thank you Mr Lipton.
a good quick demonstration of self calibrating is the best type of demonstration combined with the knowledge of how to sweep the reference plane (granite plate) for flatness having a square that you can count on or even knowing how out of square it is is basic but important tool the knowledge is priceless thanks
Very good video Tom . But I'm feeling about 20 minutes short lol haven't even finished my coffee yet
Tom, are you going cover the meaning of life in a future video? I feel like you know that one too.
It could be said that scraping in your cast iron surface plate to perfect flatness is achieving a higher (quality) plane, from which all dimensions may be truly seen. I think the meaning of life becomes clear from there :)
you would not want to experience perfect flat or level. i have seen this on rick and morty show, it was not good ;) (Experience True Level (Rick and Morty Season 3) on youtube)
can never get enough of your tricks of the trade! thanks very much Tom!
Obvious once you are shown. Got it with you nice demo as I do the same bridge with a degree wheel to find Top dead center just had not thought of applying it in any other use.
Thanks Will
Thank you for your insight Mr Lipton. That will come in handy in creating our own metrology equipment.
Wow, I thought I was screwed without a true master square, but you showed me how! Thank you!
Very interesting!!!! Not unlike the technique carpenters use to correct long lines created with an out of calibration level.
All the best!
Mike
Wow, you have no idea how many opportunities that has just opened up! FM. Thanks Tom
Thank you for sharing, I have been kicking around the idea of building a "master square". You have verified that I can calibrate it close enough for anything that I would do in my shop.
Actually building a really accurate cylindrical square on a half decent lathe that's not totally clapped out isn't all that tough with a good micrometer. As long as the cylinder measures the same diameter along it's length and it's had at least one end faced off at the same setting then it has to be square to within at least the accuracy your micrometer will repeat to. Until I bought a good one I used a large diesel engine wrist pin as my small cylinder square. There hardened and ground to some pretty accurate specifications so work quite well.
That is what I had in mind. I have a piece of 2" stainless. Should work OK.
Suburban Tools do a real good explanation of how even a worn out of square cylindrical square will be still exactly square to the surface plate if you can measure where that exact point is on the cylinder that might be worth checking out. My B & S 558 square is just a bit over 6.250" long and has a diameter of 2.440 so was likely ground from 2.5" stock if those dimensions will help. The larger the diameter of stock you use the more stable it will be in use.To save on weight some of the more usual squares are ground from heavy wall schedule 80 or better pipe. But your stainless will help with the rust issue since a rusty cylindrical square is just about worthless.
Turning Point If the piece you intend to use is a tube then should work pretty good, but if a solid cylinder then you could have an issue. Most lathes will face slightly convex and a 'tippy' square is not much use... Perhaps if you turned an undercut in the center.
That's why you turn a narrow step on the squares bottom face and recess the rest so it remains stable in use. But any half decent lathe should face slightly concave right from the factory. Toolroom lathes if I remember the specifications correctly are or should be set up with an inward bias of .002"-003" over 12" on the cross slide so that would be on a 24" diameter workpiece. All bets would be off on exactly what you'd get with a seriously worn lathe though. All 3 lathes I've owned faced concave. But turning that bottom step should help to get a stable square.
Another good teaching video, you've covered square, parallel ECT over the yrs and I learn each time. Thanks for sharing. I do have a thought to add, when you're "reasonably" lol parralel 15millionths!! is bolted to the 1-2-3 block the torque of the bolt can induce deformation in a number of planes. Love learning new stuff, just wanted to add that.
Along the line of calibrating a spirit level. Nice.
Thanks Tom.
your timing is perfect & mind set is right where I'm presently at.
I'm just learning this new skill. Keep up the good work.
I always enjoy these lessons in 'first principles'. Simple geometry applied to shop metrology.
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for sharing.
Wow. Very nice vídeo.
I always learn a lot from watching your videos.
Congratulations from Brazil.
Eng. Nilton Polydoro
Tom, your post couldn't be more timely. I am looking at buying a small surface grinder this week!! Thank you!
Why don't you Lapp it........ Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Best. Tom
I used to road race motorcycles. I'm used to it. :)
IIRC, I noticed an IoM sticker on a workbox. Are you a fan of racing?
I've been in engineering for the last 60 years but I still get a buzz from watching precision work methods and the tools to enable it on the go.
Wow! And here I thought it was impossible to create something out of nothing!. Many thanks.
Very nicely and well demonstrated Tom.
Rain at the shop, that was a nice touch.
Tom, your skills in metrology are to be admired. Given that you seem to know how to calibrate things, may I make a suggestion?
In Australia we do get Starrett equipment, but Mitutoyo equipment is also readily available, and so too are the cheaper Chinese instruments. Would you consider doing a comparison of, say, a one inch micrometer and/or dial gauge from Starrett, Mitutoyo and (perhaps) Shars, to give us an idea of how they match up? Accuracy and repeatibility would be of concern, and so too would be your assessment of how each could be used in the home shop, and the sorts of tasks they could be entrusted with.
Super useful video instruction - as usual. Thanks Tom!
This is an elegant explanation of the idea. Thank you!
Damn that's cool! And so simple... Thank you!
Brilliant simplicity! Thanks for the great tip/video.
Thanks for the tips.
I’ve been hunting around for a master for a while now. This should buy me some time until I find one
What's the difference between a machinist and a musician? Not much in principle. Accuracy - refined accuracy - in space for the machinist: in time for the musician. I'm slowly realizing that the finest machinists, you certainly among the very best, are like the finest pianists who combine precision with spirit and come up with art. I am truly enjoying seeing your "performances", your exhibition of truly admirable skill and the "art" of your craftsmanship. Thanks for sharing, Tom. What a delight.
To paraphrase an old saying "out of darkness comes light" into "out of square, comes square" (pun intended)
Thank you sir for the entertaining and imformative video!
Tom, Great information. Thanks.
I don't think I've learned as much in 6 minutes since my dad was teaching me to ride a bike by walking behind me with his belt off, ready to give me a thrashing each time I fell off. This was as effective but somewhat less brutal, just hope I can remember it in 40+ years time too. (tbh I'll be well over 80 by then and probably won't remember if I've had lunch yet, but thanks anyway)
Thanks Tom. That is a good concept to put in the tool box!!!
That's a neato video, lots of information as usual. :) It's really nice that even when you're limited by what you can acquire or purchase, with some minimal tools, you can still make yourself stand up. We're kind of missing that sentiment these days.
To be clear, Tom, you are calibrating the comparator with the test indicator to indicate square, right? The parallel and 1-2-3 block setup is not perpendicular to the surface plate. I was a little confused at first. Since you said you were going to create a perfect master square reference and showed the two master squares, I was expecting the parallel to end up square to the surface plate. It made sense once I realized that what you were calibrating was the comparator to indicate square, not the parallel to be square. Good demo, nevertheless.
Hi Richard. Yes the comparator is perfectly square after this procedure. If you wanted to carry it further you could move the parallel around until you get the exact same reading on both sides. Then you would have a right angle artifact. Cheers. Tom
Great tip Tom, thanks for sharing
Very cool Tom, thank you for the awesome trick. Matt C
After videos like these I want to subscribe a second time to this channel.
Nice video there. I love that it can be done so simply. If I might ask, what are the curved lines of dots on the cylinder square for? I don't think I have seen one with those before.
I would be interested too
I'm also curious
Add me to the list!
they are used to measured how out of square an object is. line up the dot that matches the square to test object, read off the amount out of square from the dots
so the cylinder is not square all the way around?
Very Cool Tom! Love your vids....
Very informative, well done.
Mr. Gizzarrrrrrrrr, err...I mean Mr. Wizard, that's very clever! That trick will come in handy for Scrapefest 2! ;-)
Nice to know that square and parallel can be achieved without elaborate and expensive metrics
That was a great lesson, Tom.
How to make a 24" version of this? Would it work the way you did it? Also, wouldn't the 1-2-3 block do the same purpose?
Some of this stuff should be taught in schools...
That's really interesting, but now I'm wondering what those spiral dots on the outside of the cylinder square are for
That's a special cylinder square, he has another video on it. If you flip the cylinder upside down, that face is not square (on purpose). Those dots show how out of square a part is.
As always, an excellent video Tom. At the risk of being a pedant, I'd suggest for those interested in metrology, it's generally considered best practice to move the work (where possible) and not the gauge. ie when checking for parallel you'd slide the parallel beneath the stationary indicator. The reason is it typically results in less error due to surface plate tolerance.
That's the the older guys in our job shop tell me, move the part, not the gauge. Good to have another opinion on this.
Old guys are always right ;) Yes there's a few reasons for it, and for electronic gauges moving them can introduce errors just because of their sensitivity. However even with mechanical indicators, if you imagine the plate actually being a convex curve and you slid the parallel under the indicator, the parallel would follow the curve as it slid. Conversely, if the parallel was stationary and you moved the indicator, the indicator would follow the curve and you'd end up measuring the radius of the curve the indicator was sitting on.
Hopefully that makes sense. Most of the time the surface plates are so flat thats not a major factor, but it's still considered good practice. Nevertheless, with a 2 um indicator or similar, you will notice more reliable results by following best practice.
I get your gist, and...they aren't always right but the majority of the time, what they say at least works. :) We can always take it from there!
I've been looking for a comparator base like the one you used in the second half of the video (with the curved bumper) for some time but without success. Can anyone point me in the right direction? The one in the video doesn't look brand new - perhaps they're no longer made?
Are these "comparators" mostly shop-made tools??... I cannot locate anything similar online except bench top anvil comparators.... thx!
That was a neat trick!
"here there, and everywhere !" HL&tN
Keep on trucking (from France) !
Nice demonstration Tom. It seems like this procedure is pretty much like zeroing in the vice on the mill, sweep the jaw end to end, then keep adjusting half the indicator reading.
How do you like the Noga arm on your base? Real clever!
Steve
Tom, what is the purpose of those dimples on your cylindrical square?
Those particular comparator gauge bases are shop-made, right? I don't think I've ever seen one set up like that before.
Hi Tom, about the base with the curved front edge, would a normal scribe base with a vertical v notch in it (witch one of yours have it) and a big ball bearing ball up against the v notch also do the job sweeping for "zero".
Yes. If fact that is exactly what I used to do before I walked on land. Cheers. Tom
Hi Tom
I have the same cylinder square, inherited from my dad. What are the "dots" for?
Thanks,
John
GREAT VIDEO !!!
Great trick! High accuracy with simple means are invaluable. Biggest question now is do I want to drill a hole in one off my parallels😝
you could just clamp it on instead, the hole is nice but optional.
You might think I'm crazy, but I don't even care
'Cause I can tell what's going on
It's hip to be square! Lol
I have just been thinking about this, thought i was going to have to pop for an expensive standard. Noice!
Hi Tom,
Just curious as to what you think about checking both sides of the master square or cylinder just to be sure it reads the same ?
Well that will help me...squarest thing in my shop is my head.. :-)
I assume that the parallel could be moved slightly until the same measurement is achieved on both surfaces to achieve an actual square?
Absolutely correct. Then you really have something. Cheers. Tom
just ingenious!
Tom, if you ever decide to go into surface gage large knob business, you have a costumer.
Brilliant!
Awesome video
Nice...but how did you hold the 123 block together...😆😆😆
U rock Tom!
i had to watch it 3 times to understand. hahaha. now im going to hide under a rock.
Is there a shop tour video?
This video should be the first result when somebody googles "elegant".
Very cool.
Mind blown....
Tom, the cylinder master looked like it had a pattern of punch marks in it. What are those for? Great video as always.
Thay cylinder square can measure out of squareness directly. One end has a slight angle on it so when you rotate it and block the light coming through you can get an actual measurement. The opposite end of the cylinder is ground perfectly square so it behaves as a master also. Cheers. Tom
Can someone explain units to me. Based on my current understanding, a thou is a thousandth of an inch, a tenth is a tenth of a thou, and a millionth is a millionth of an inch. Is that correct?
Yes, correct. It's like this because .001" is the "base unit" most commonly used by machinists working in inch units.
I cannot figure this out. Why is one side A +5 and side B -5? What am I missing?
Larry Doolittle he "zeroed" on one side, then read the other side, and measured that as ten out. Since he new the sides were parallel, it mean s the whole thing leans, and one side is half the measurement away from the comparator, the other is half towards it, so one side is minus five from square, the other is plus five. Even though the thing wasn't square, he could use it to calibrate the comparator so he can check squareness of something else:)
Hi Larry. Because the parallel is not square. Its leaning one way plus and one way minus. We can split the difference with the comparator and derive true square. If you wanted to you can move the parallel around until you get zero zero on both sides. Hope this helps. Cheers. Tom
Thank you, Tom. Now I get it. Best.
thanks Tom
What is the reason for the dot patterns on the standard?
Here's an explanation of how a cylindrical square works. czcams.com/video/QiMPRyJ76KI/video.html
scroll up
Cool!
Tom, when you zeroed on side A, why doesn't side B show zero?
John Warden The parallel isn't perpendicular to the surface plate, so the initial zero is basically an arbitrary starting point. You are saying that zero indicates how far the parallel is tipped toward or away from you. Then when you indicate the other side it shows twice how far the parallel is tipped in the other direction. True perpendicularity is halfway in between the two readings.
Thanks for the reply, now it makes sense.
I have to think about this. Not sure how this works. Didn't Adam show a device with a curved like on your gauge and I believe he gave credit to you for it.
what are the purpose for the small holes or dots in the cylindrical true square? do they have a purpose or are they just cosmetic?
another one :) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks
awesome way to find true square for us youtube homegamers
The strange things that go through my mind...I see all that great metrology equipment sitting on top of the filing cabinet....and then worry about it rattling off onto the floor in the event of a decent earthquake...it is California after all...🤔
nice trick