Is compromise possible between Bulgaria and North Macedonia? | A debrief w/ Dimitar Bechev
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- čas přidán 18. 06. 2024
- While Sofia accepted the French proposal to find a solution between Bulgaria and North Macedonia, protests erupted after the Skopje government decided to consider approving the demands before beginning EU accession talks. Ilva Tare discusses the origins of this dispute and the path forward for both countries with Dimitar Bechev, lecturer at Oxford's School of Global & Area Studies.
Is it possible for Bulgaria and North Macedonia to create a model for non-provocative national identity expression? Is the current crisis setting a precedent for future rounds of regional enlargement? Can the EU act as a guarantee for bilateral talks?
You still dont understand the real problem it seems... You say you are not worried with the identity issue because identity doesnt change that easily, well i urge you to look back at the history books and realize that identity change is what has defined the macedonian question since its inception. It is the reason why we have three macedonian identities today. So its an understatement to say we shouldnt be worried about the further complication of this frenetic system of identity changes imposed by external propaganda and at great expense of the people, that has been witnessed in macedonia in the past centuries. Yes the question becomes much less complicated once you resolve the social and economical issues of the society, but that will take decades, a century maybe, while these other propagandist factors have a much quicker way of functioning, and they inevitably lead to instability.
Propaganda
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North Macedonian is a new term, no one in the past ever referred to themselves as anything but Macedonian (my father's mother's ancestory as he claimed, he lost contact with her over 80 years ago, so really no way to check or challenge this memory of his).
80 years ago they called themselves Bulgarians from the region of Macedonia...
replying to Dayan and VV, I really can't say much about this region of the world even if that is where my paternal grandmother was originally from (I never met either of my paternal biological grandparents), that's still a big if, but my father was quite convinced of it to his dying days that his biological mother was Macedonian so my guess is that if she called herself Macedonian 90 odd years ago (dad was born in Canada 90 years ago this Sept), then she probably was from Salonica in Greece or something - I even suspect that she may have been Jewish as she refused to marry granddad on religion grounds according to dad, we just don't know the religion in question or if granddad would not convert to hers or what. On the other hand, I met a couple of guys years ago speaking in a foreign language in the small store where I worked, and I asked them what language it was as I somehow felt that I should know it, sounded a bit close to Greek (I can read a bit, not speak it), but turned out to be Macedonian, we chatted a bit, and I said to the one fellow that he looked like he could be my twin brother and we laughed at that because it did look that way, it was a bit strange really, but definitely no sense of being a Bulgarian from the region of Macedonia, that's a new one to me, and was certainly never mentioned by dad, no he referred to his mother as Macedonian, and put Macedonian (and English for his father) on the census form whenever he filled it out. That being said, I live in a country where we tend to define ourselves most strongly by what we are not, Americans (yet we are in the Americas), rather than what makes us distinctively Canadian which no one has really been able to pin down succintly yet. So best of luck on working out the details of your national identities, as for me I will always consider myself part Macedonian from my paternal grandmother even if I can't define what makes me a Canadian to everyone's satisfaction. I will edit my original comment to reflect a correction.
@V V Thank you for the thourgh reply VV. I will try following up on some of your suggestions and I do have some books on the Balkans that I never seem to get around to reading. As for calling my self part Macedonian it is because my step grandmother was to never know that we kids knew that she was dad's step mother - whose roots were from the north of England while grandpa was from the south, Cornwall -, so for years people were speculating to us "oh you kids must have Scandinavian or Dutch ancestory in you" (and so did we) while the likelihood is not a speck! but who really knows without testing. I would also guess that some of the appeal is to Alexander of Macedon as some sort of purportedly great figure who conquored (and killed) a lot of people. I should have asked dad about what appealed to him about his Macedonian ancestory, I suspect that it's something about survival of the memory of where your ancestors came from when it's not obvious otherwise, especially since in the bad old days, dad would have been labelled a bastard aka illegitimate child and dad had issues about fitting into his family. But if you start digging I suspect that most people would find less than appealing aspects of the family line, for example I discovered that my first great uncle on my maternal grand father's side, was born two months after the marriage which my mother definitely did not know, as her usually prudish parents had eloped and had limited contact with the family back in remote fishing villages of the rocky North Atlantic. But definitely thank you for your explanation, that helps me understand the situation better.
@@peterhumphrys can I refer you to a YT chanel called "Samuil's fortress" ? The host- Kiril is a self identified american with macedonian parents and he has a pretty good view on the matter. To sum the chanel up, the modern macedonian identity is valid and that is fine but the root of said identity is absolutely bulgarian and that is also fine.
@@miroslavfilipov6589 yes, thank you
The french proposal is not balanced at all. This proposal fully support bulgarian side, and macedonia should not accept it. If EU is still credible, it should stick to copenhagen principles, and not open the door to bulgarian nationalists who denied existance of macedonian identity and language. Identity and history of one nation should be part of universal declaration of freedom and right
I do agree on keeping the far nationalists at bay and I do agree with N. Macedonians right to self identity but history is not up for debates. If Austrians call themselves germanic that would be fine, but if lets say Croats did it( they did not do it) that would be laughable. Just because you want to identify as something, this does not change your history and that is the point of the bulgarian view on the matter.
На протеста имаше хора с тениска "Гоцевата раса". Гоце е българин. Значи се самоопределят като част от българската раса? А протестират срещу "българизацията"? 🤔
(Друга тема е че деленето по "раси" - ако има такова нещо като раси- е отживелица в нормалните държави)
@@SeutesTercero тихо да не те чуят, че ще спрат и после няма на какво да се смеем 🤫
you people are slavs gligorof said you are slavs,thats why they tried to kill him,you use the bulgarian language you understand each other,wake up you are not macedonians you are slavs!!
The French proposal deals with the reality you used to call yourself Bulgarians.
" Identity and history of one nation should be part of universal declaration of freedom and right"
Indeed.. unfortunately ultra natioanlist frauds like you violate this right of Greeks and Bulgarians when you shamelessly try to steal our history.
"copenhagen principles"
I don't believe good neighbourly includes large number of nationals in Skopje manipulating history to promote what they call "United Macedonia".
Sozemenus mentions both Macedonians and Greeks in the 5th century 🇬🇷🇲🇰❤️☦️
The gesta hungarorum mentions Macedonians and Bulgarians in the 10th century 🇭🇺🇲🇰❤️
Demetrios Chomantenos the Ohrid Archbishop tells us about Ieraker who descends from the Macedonian race in the 11th century 🇲🇰☦️
Macedonians and Bulgarians are mentioned in Buck Whaley’s memoirs 1797 🇲🇰🇮🇪☘️❤️
Macedonians served in the Russian army in the 18th century -Macedonians Hussar Regiment. 🇲🇰🇷🇺☦️❤️
François Baron de Tott mentions Macedonians in his memoirs 1780 🇲🇰🇫🇷❤️
Nassau William Senior mentions the Macedonians in 1878 🏴🇲🇰❤️
Macedonians and there country ceased to exist after the battle of Pidna won by the Roman general Emilio Paolo were 20.000 soldiers were killed and after 150.000 were enslaved to Italy. Finally Romans destroyed 72 towns and brought to Rome their last king. Read some history books man don't tell lies!
@@simeonsimeonov5205 silly Chuvashi what happened to the Macedonians did they cease to exist ?
Manifesto from the Provisional Government of Macedonia - 1881.!
President, Vasil Chomo!
Secretary, Nikola Trajkov!
"'our beloved fatherland is calling to you my faithful children you descendants of Aristotle and Alexander the great you and whose veins flow Macedonian blood."
-- this means that we are Macedonian descendants of Aristotle and Alexander.
They were not Slavs -- they were Macedonians = We are Macedonians, not Slavs.
Please stop this Slavic Communist propaganda For us Macedonians.`
@@simeonsimeonov5205 and what I posted aren’t history books ?
@@DOOMMAKEDONIA Where does the name Kumanovo comes from? Don't tell me it's the Cuman Bulgars. Also what happened to the Thracians? Simply they got assimilated in the local population like the Bulgars.
No matter how you want to call yourselves the whole world know the historical true, that Macedonia was a part of ancient Greek. Macedonians spoke Greek ( Archeology proves that) and for Christ sake the word "Macedonia " has meaning only in Greek language and it means the place where tall men lives . You are Slavs , you talk a Bulgarian dialect ( proof of this is that Bulgarians can understand your language without translators ). So do yourselves a favor and accept the truth . Stop being a farce of a nation that the whole world laughs with .
They are acting like little kids, refusing to accept that they are a new nation and identity and digging up anything they can find in history with which they can blame their neighbours (except for Serbia, which controlled the region for 70 years).
I mean calling the Bulgarians - "mongol tatars" that have nothing to do with their "pure Slavic blood", but then at the same time conveniently stealing Bulgarian historical figures, writers, teachers etc, just so they can have content in their textbooks...
Pathetic
Your Macedonia and my Macedonia have different meanings, and both are historical facts. In Prespa agreement there is Article 7 and first sentence is "The Parties acknowledge that their respective understanding of the terms “Macedonia” and “Macedonian” refers to a different historical context and cultural heritage." Please read this agreement.
And our language is Macedonian Language and not dialect of Bulgarian. It is recognised by the Third UN Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names, held in Athens in 1977. This fact is also mentioned in Prespa agreement and signed by Greek government.
@@tediconevski3466 My Macedonia and your Macedonia ? History my friend is one and only one and the real History is the one that is verified by the Archeology ,so how can you say that your language is Macedonian when Archeology proves that the ancient Macedonians spoke Greek , how can you say that Alexander the Great was a " Slav Macedonian" when the Slavs came in the area at the 6th century AD (900 years after the death of Alexander ) ? Also Alexander the Great after his victory at Gaugamila he sent 300 shields to hang at Acropolis and he wrote " ΑΛΕΧΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΦΙΛΛΙΠΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΠΛΗΝ ΛΑΚΕΔΕΜΟΝΙΩΝ " (Meaning : Alexander the Great and the rest of the Greeks except the Spartans) because the Spartans didn't follow his campaign. You cannot forge History , History is being written by time and always justifies the right side no matter how much time it takes .
At last, Prespa agreement as you correctly said signed by the Government (and of course this Government was a communist one ,communism has a tradition in foraging history ) against the people .If you want see the protests of Greek people for this Agreement, the videos from the drones show that was more than 1million Greeks oppose the Government .
Sozemenus mentions both Macedonians and Greeks in the 5th century 🇬🇷🇲🇰❤️☦️
The gesta hungarorum mentions Macedonians and Bulgarians in the 10th century 🇭🇺🇲🇰❤️
Demetrios Chomantenos the Ohrid Archbishop tells us about Ieraker who descends from the Macedonian race in the 11th century 🇲🇰☦️
Macedonians and Bulgarians are mentioned in Buck Whaley’s memoirs 1797 🇲🇰🇮🇪☘️❤️
Macedonians served in the Russian army in the 18th century -Macedonians Hussar Regiment. 🇲🇰🇷🇺☦️❤️
François Baron de Tott mentions Macedonians in his memoirs 1780 🇲🇰🇫🇷❤️
Nassau William Senior mentions the Macedonians in 1878 🏴🇲🇰❤️
@@DOOMMAKEDONIA yes but these people do not consider themselves as Macedonians, but as Bulgarians from the macedonian region. This is a big difference.
Manifesto from the Provisional Government of Macedonia - 1881.!
President, Vasil Chomo!
Secretary, Nikola Trajkov!
"'our beloved fatherland is calling to you my faithful children you descendants of Aristotle and Alexander the great you and whose veins flow Macedonian blood."
-- this means that we are Macedonian descendants of Aristotle and Alexander.
They were not Slavs -- they were Macedonians = We are Macedonians, not Slavs.
Please stop this Slavic Communist propaganda For us Macedonians.`
You are slavs
North Macedonia is a new country which was formed politically and artificially. Historically and ethnically it was a part of the old Bulgarian state and territory. But after the liberation of Bulgaria from the Ottoman rule it remained in the territory of the Ottoman empire. Unfortunately this Bulgarian territory and population was attractive to Greece and Serbia and Bulgaria lost three wars attempting to liberate it. After the Second World War Bulgaria was on the side of defeated Germany (again because Germany promised to help about Macedonia) and this was the last third national catastrophy for the country. So Macedonia became a part of the Yougoslavian federation and the population in Macedonia was subjected to violent debulgarisation and brainwashing. New history was invented and lots of books, documents and historical artefacts were counterfeit. Graveyards were destroyed, people were killed and everything which showed the Bulgarian identity of the population was deleted. Even children at school and their families were punished severely by the serbian teachers and authorities if they showed in any way their Bulgarian identity. The repressions were so cruel and safocating that for about two decades after the SWW people were not only very scared to say but they didnt want to be Bulgarians anymore. The country Bulgaria itself couldn't do anything because as a defeated country after the SWW it barely managed to save its territory from before the war and also it was obliged to obey the communist policy of the Soviet Union. Nowadays Bulgarians see that the scale of the brainwashing in North Macedonia is so big that they literaly lie about everything in history, culture and identity. So we Bulgarians cannot make a compromise with all these lies and forgeries. The population was Bulgarian but was forced to name themselves "Macedonian" after the name of the territory. By the way, the name Macedonia was put late in the 18 or early 19 centuries. This territory had different names during the centuries. So nowadays Macedonians have nothing in common with the ancient Macedonians. They are Bulgarians whose ancestors were forced to become Macedonians. One of the main reasons was that none of the western countries wanted a big Bulgaria an ally of Russia.
macedonia is not a new country its been here around 2000 years old lol
@@chrisb2743 Hahaha! You haven't read a lot history, have you? The ancient Macedonia disappeared from history two centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ such as Troy, such as Sparta, such as Carthagen and Sumer. The remaining of the population mixed with other people's and that was it. There is no other revival of this country or etnicity. But the name remained. The Roman Empire kept the name to remind them of their victory perhaps. In the late 19 century started the adulteration of history because of political reason.
@@user-pg1er7ct9v ahaha really bulgaria is all mix also with more Turks and gypsies living in Bulgaria 🤣
@@chrisb2743 Ahaha. Bulgaria is mainly populated with Bulgarians as well as North Macedonia. The only difference is that North Macedonians are brain washed descendants of Bulgarians. How ironic!
@@chrisb2743 I’m not sure about that. 450 thousand are Gypsies and 900 thousand are Turks. Also doesn’t Macedonia have like 25% Albanian population? Или както вие ги наричате “Шиптари” То не е ли и Албански официален език в Македония? Тъй че като гледам не сме ние проблема.