Christian missionaries were killed in Haiti. They never should have been there. (Livestream)
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- čas přidán 24. 05. 2024
- Christian missionaries Natalie Lloyd and her husband Davy Lloyd were killed by gangs in Haiti.
It's a tragic story. But why on earth were they unnecessarily in one of the most dangerous places in the world?
This is a clip from my recent livestream:
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Thank you to Yanely Del Rosario for providing captioning help!
Missionary work is inherently colonialist, so of course no one in their circle saw anything wrong with it. Christians literally feel entitled to the entire world.
Eh, this feels really lacking because I doubt you call when muslims did it the same. I would consider it even worse. Since they started the African slave trade and destroyed hindu Buddhist lands. Sadly no one calls that colonialism.
100% - reminds me of the guy John Allen Chau who went to East Sentinel Island to bring Jesus to a people totally uncontacted for tens of thousands of years - and they quickly demonstrated that his "god" is bullshit as they killed him dead quickly.
This “colonialist” narrative is utter BS. To say that the government of Haiti is wrong to set their immigration and work policies in some manner or other is WAY more colonialist than for some particular couple to go do charitable work there.
@@adamredwine774 missionary is not charitable
@@adamredwine774 The entire point of a missionary is to spread Christianity through propaganda and misinformation. They are the original colonizers FFS!
I'm a high school teacher in Florida and have a number of Haitian-American students. It breaks my heart hearing them worry about relatives still there and a few months ago helped dry the tears of a girl after hearing her brother was shot.
What makes me so mad about these "missionaries" is they completely ignore the fact that there are native and diaspora networks already in place that are in a much better position to provide aid and comfort, and yet they'd rather send a young white couple who stick out like sore thumbs and endanger not only themselves but the very congregations they claim to help by making themselves such a blatant target. If these "missionary" churches really want to help, contact a Haitian diaspora group in their local area. (Of course, do proper due diligence to make sure the group is legit as sadly some are not) Or they could help support and settle the thousands of Haitian refugees in various parts of the world.
But, no, they want to put white American faces in front of churches there.
... because missionary work is essentially colonialism.
Sadly, they won't be the last either. I hope missionaries take your suggestions. Doesn't the Bible say something about following rules and laws? Give onto Caesar, obey laws, etc... Government CLEARLY advises against travelling there, so DON'T!
And sadly, instead of helping, I'm sure some are put off helping Haiti.
@@fayito9970historically, they were tied to colonialism. Yes. The Jesuits are the best example of this.
But we are no longer in the age of colonialism. I know it's fashionable to try to see just about any international interaction - and especially geopolitics - through the lens of empire. But, speaking as a historian, I have to tell you that this doesn't really hold up much anymore except in rare cases.
I think we can criticize missionaries on a more fundamental level. They're arrogant and self-important. They aren't interested in preserving cultural diversity. And their charity comes with ulterior motives.
@@RobespierreThePoof "They're arrogant and self-important. They aren't interested in preserving cultural diversity. And their charity comes with ulterior motives." Which is exactly why it makes a lot of people think of colonialism. Maybe it's not exactly true from an historian perspective, but close enough.
@Jose-Gonzalez-cfl The way these missionaries ignore, bypass, or even sometimes outright hamper self-help groups in the countries they claim to help.
I recently was approached by teens from my neighborhood church who were raising money for a summer mission trip to Honduras. I asked what they were planning to do there, and they said they were going to build a fence around and paint a church. Thinking that was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard, I asked if they thought people in Honduras were not capable of building fences and painting. If the church was truly struggling, couldn't they just raise funds for the church to purchase paint and hire local workers to build and paint? Why put a bunch of spoiled suburban teenagers on an airplane to do it so they can post about it on social media? I was simply told I didn't understand doing the Lord's work. I guess I don't.
Hold up! 94% christian and the place is a nightmare? That says a lot about the "power of Christianity" to change people to be good.
Every place religious people went is now poor
Yes, but they're mostly Catholic, so they're not really Christians (I'm sure many also think "they're not white, so they're not Christian and need the white saviour"). At least that's how these people think, and why they go to Central-South America as missionaries.
It's not about the people being good. It's about leaving those people alone. They don't want them there.
@@kaybrown7733 You've completely missed the point of the comment. Or misunderstood the comment completely.
I think it is you that missed the point. The problems in Haiti are caused by foreign intervention caused by American imperialism. Attributing political unrest to an entire people being "bad" is an infantile, colonial position .@@Cindy-dk3ko
Unfortunately, knowing how often Christians cling to a persecution complex, it’s possible that churches will see these tragic deaths as “martyrdom” and that’ll lure others to a similarly awful fate. No one should die like this.
'Martyrdom' is actually how the church convinces them. This shit is promoted by religion as a 'path to glory'. That John Chau guy didn't just go to the Sentinal Islands of his own volition - his congregation's leaders essentially wound up their little idiot 'Christian soldier' and pointed him in that direction, and told him the laws of man were 'irrelevant'. And oh boy did they ever HOWL about 'retribution' when their boy got 86'd, and they used the schtick to cry 'persecution!'.
I promise you Chau's last rational thought was, "What the f__k was I thinking...?" And the answer, of course, is that he WAS NOT THINKING.
I'm feel bad for his family and friends, and it's sad that he's dead, but I have no sympathy left for people who exercise ZERO common sense. some people truly are their own worst enemy, and religion encourages them to embrace that and be prideful of it.
Every few years you hear about something like this happening - some 'missionary' goes some place and gets killed. How many times are these idiots going to keep experiencing the failure of 'divine armor' before they get the message? You'd think there'd be SOME introspect, but.... evidently not.
I don't know what sect the Lloyds were from, but I'd certainly expect it from most Pentecostals.
That's definitely part of it. There's also this perception among evangelical groups that their god will protect them from harm. But if he didn't protect them, well obviously that's what he wanted to happen and while it's tragic, it'll be used to bring more ppl to him or something like that.
It's pretty amazing how the rationalizing goes in these situations.
@@SadisticSenpai61
As a Christian, it's been very interesting reading a lot of the comments here, but I'll respond to you.
The Bible makes no assertions that we'll be 'protected' against all harm. In fact, it guarantees that Christians will go through some form of persecution. But to your second point of Christians trying to rationalise a tragic event, this is something that is even common in secular circles. It's not unusual for a good outcome to come from a tragic event. We've heard of many stories where a family has campaigned for a new law after the tragic death of their loved one, causing many lives to be saved as a result.
In the Scripture, God promises Christians that "all things God works for the good of those who love him, and are called according to his purposes." Romans 8:28
You and many others here may take issue with the last part of the verse: "of those who love him and are called according to his purposes." Some may think God is being petty, transactional and only loving someone conditionally. But the Gospel is an open invitation to anyone and everyone because Jesus died for everyone. You, me, Friendly Atheist, etc.
"But God demonstrated his love for us in this: whilst we were still sinners, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8
God doesn't want anyone to perish, nor does he take pleasure in anyone going to hell or dying, but he wants all to come to repentance. (3 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18:23).
Haiti just reopened their airport like 2-3 days ago, after it being closed due to violence for like 6 months... so these people went in as soon as it reopened.
Missionaries have some of the biggest egos on the planet. As do the irresponsible ones that send them.
Double barreled savior complex. White christianity in a nutshell
When you're doing Gods work, how could anything possibly go wrong?
They don’t believe in reality unless it’s their own.
They know what they're getting into. The all stars in Christendom are the martyrs. New Testament has 'to live is Christ and to die is gain'.
If you’re wondering why so many missionaries head to Haiti when it’s 94% Christian, look at the 66% Catholic rate. You have to be the right Christian because god is fickle.
Yep. Only I am a true christian. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Their goal is to convert Catholics as apparently we are no Christians!
@mort8143 Nuh uh, I'M the true Christian.
If we can figure out which ministry deployed the Lloyds there, we can tell that particular denomination, sect, or church movement to clean up their act.
Shouldn’t we be every type of Christian just to make sure. And all other religions and their various sects, as well? I wanna make sure I’m praying to the right invisible sky wizard.
The USA is the absolute last country Haiti wants to see and no matter how honest your intentions you will not be welcome there. The only thing the usa can do there right now is make things worse. Please look at the historical relationship and understand that Haiti has been repressed
Haiti was a French colony, and they made a mess.
its not the only thing we can do we are currently supporting Kenya in their effort to bring order and peace. you are right in the fact it cannot be US troops or citizens but we can support those who can help
@@hillockfarm8404 and we made it worse
@@hillockfarm8404actually Haiti has been independent for a really long time from France.
@user-bz6bz2yy3w Yes, but France used military violence to force Haiti to pay France for the freedom Haiti had won. The sum was so great that it took until 1947 for Haiti to pay what was demanded. Western countries have also contributed by not recognizing Haiti as an independent nation and keeping Haiti out of international economic trade.
I grew up in Brazil where thousands of American missionaries have dedicated their lives to converting Catholics to Christianity!
Catholics... who are already Christian... to another flavour of the same sludge?
😂 religions are weird
As much as I don't like Catholicism, I would rather have Catholics than Protestants.
Mormons too
This is exactly what they were no doubt doin in Haiti, same as they did in Ireland to my ancestors...
I agree: those folks need clean drinking water, housing, and an end to corruption in their nation, not a god who committed genocide against his neighboring gods for more land and slaves.
Oh dear. Please crack open a book. BTW, check out all of the nations with clean/potable tap water then look at their Christian heritage. Coincidence? You can shit on your heritage all you like but it's pointless to do so...unless you want to be like Haiti.
I mean many missionaries do that too when they go... aka digging wells building homes setting up medical and dental camps
"Neighboring gods"? 😂 What are you on bro?
“The crazy woman who decided to set up a hospital who had no medical license…”
Me: Mother Theresa?
I used to be in a church who believed that Catholics were just as condemned as a satanist. I got out, and now I see just how fear-filled my life was when I was in. Your whole life is lived in fear. Everything you do is either to keep yourself on the straight and narrow OR to save someone else from eternal damnation.
See, im almost certain that these christian missionaries thowt similar about Catholics bein the wrong kind of Christians; it explains why theyre goin there and fits in with what theyve done in other sufferin areas when colonisation causes unrest... Its the **same thing** they did to my Irish ancestors two centuries ago, bcuz they worshipped god wrongly
Never underestimate the danger and sorrow wreaked in the name of Catholophobia.
It was similar for me. Many of these churches were Calvinist or infiltrated by Calvinists. They saw every dogma but Calvinism as heresy but they wouldn't admit to being Calvinists.
In one church they would pray for Christians in Eastern Bloc countries as a distraction from the problems in the UK in the 80s with growing unemployment because of a declining manufacturing industry, dirty streets, and wars. But somehow we had to be grateful for religious freedom. In Eastern European countries and France they had the freedom not to be religious. Plus they had a better public transport system.
@@lemsip207 If the world had better critical thinking skills, everyone would find it suspicious that they were holding up John Calvin as the ultimate prophet.
@@dominicfucinari1942John Calvin was a uniquely evil entity and perverted the bible to further that cults own agenda.
I’m glad someone is pointing this out. Missionaries are ridiculous. Keep your religion to yourself.
Why do people always believe that we only go on missions just to rub religion in other people's faces? Where do you hear this shit? My church goes on mission trips to Tanzania to give poor people food, water, clothes, and medicine. That's it.🙄
My mother had planned a mission trip to the Ukraine in late 2021. However my sister and I were adamant that the trip was extremely dangerous due to the mounting aggressive posture of Russia. She had been there before and just assumed that the village she was to visit would be safe even though it was barely 40-50 miles from Chernobyl. Needless to say she was devastated to learn that her host village was overrun during the Russian invasion and grateful that we (my sister and I) basically forbade her from going.
Colonialism never ended, it just evolved into this.
It didn't evolve to this, this has always existed.
@@07Flash11MRCyep same with what happened with native Americans broke every treaty with them forced them into a location via the infamous trail of tears harmed men women and children colonists gave the native Americans blankets infected with small pox to get rid of them and took land from native Americans colonialism at its finest and all in the land of the free
Their organization supports a school with more than 240 students, operates the House of Compassion where children can live full time, and opened and operated the Good Hope Boys home for boys who have lost everything. They opened a bakery to employ young adults who have aged out of their children’s program. The bakery sells bread to the public and feeds the children who live there. Yeah, colonialism strikes again...
You'll soon learn that humans have been moving around and influencing places since the dawn of humanity
Let us remember..
Colonolialism is to benefit the rich NOT the natives or immigrants.
It's to get the resources - Oil, gas, minerals, gold, agriculture.. And land.
My suspicion is the US is arming gangs to destabilizing and threaten opposition to US corporations operating there.
These missionaries literally go to places where there’s poor people and be like I’ll give y water and food but y have to pray … they are like a virus .. y can help without forcing religion … and judging by what (missionaries) did 400 ago it’s normal that people don’t want them near their homes
"You" is too long a word & the logical abbreviation of "u" is too cool for you?
Missionaries also destroy the traditions and cultures of the regions they go to.
The people in the region didn't ask for it. They didn't ask for their cultures and traditions to be replaced.
George Carlin said it well many years ago: "religion is like lifts in your shoes...but you don't go nailing lifts on the natives' feet."
There's a long history of missionaries using their resources to manipulate locals - particularly during the period of European empires. They created opportunities for wage labor and provided food, clean water, education and healthcare. But then you read about how so many withheld access to be those things unless you converted.
It wasn't a universal practice but it was fairly common.
After empires went into decline, Europeans became far not interested in secular NGOs providing charity - real charity. But Americans? Nope.
I came across this when I was homeless in London. Food a hot drink and a warm up, from American missionaries as long as you got on your knees to their imaginary god. So I went shop lifting instead.
My ex husband, despite being an athiest, had an eidetic memory and had read the bible. He loved it when Jehovas came knocking as he liked a good argument and whatever bible passage they quoted he came back with one that said the exact opposite. On one memorable occasion two of them ran off up our drive yelling back at him over their shoulders that he was damned to hell.
That's the thing about zealots: they think they are the ones who make that call. Deep down, they believe that their opinions shape the nature of reality.
@@TumbrelsAndDrumbeats Deep down, they believe their opinions are "God's Truth." smh
😂😂 your husband had a ball😂 I've done that , but I get a silent f*you from them.😂😂
Have you seen the sketch from a few years ago "Kissing Hank's Ass". See the original by Qutub.
How interesting, I was told I have an eidetic memory,
May I ask, did he suffer from, well, memorizing things like license plates signs. Virtually anything readable? As if he didn't have a choice?
Tragic and unnecessary.
I wonder, How come Christians don't consider this kind of naïve behaviour to be "Testing god"?
The act of doing something so dangerous, that it demands a belief that god will protect you, seems like it would fit into this sinful category.
Christianity was a death cult-the only guarantee to salvation was baptism of blood. One of the early “church fathers” had his clothes hidden by his mother to keep him from going out and getting martyred, or so the story is told. Evangelicals are an apocalyptic sect and find inspiration in stories like that or in Foxe’s book of martyrs. It’s confirmation bias at its finest: if they survive, God was protecting them through the lions den. If they don’t, they were a martyr.
Good point. It looks as though the Christian tradition of poor scholarship and dubious thought got them in the end. They found more than one way to frame their actions, and took the path that best fit in with their desire to sacrifice for their god. Logical evaluation of the theology didn't enter the picture. Logical evaluation of the facts wasn't even in the room.
It's all fine. I mean they're in heaven now and haven't had to bother living a life on earth. Good for them.
Well, they took to the letter that versicle of "convert all the nations"....
I suspect tragedies like this present a fundraising opportunity. They are sent into active war zones, drug corridors, and places with extreme civil unrest. Most places already Christian. Catholic. Yes, I'm cynical, but the fundraising after such events is VERY intense.
Why send Christian missionaries to Haiti, when nearly everyone there is already Christian? Also, it's a "Do Not Travel" level of dangerous to go there, which speaks volumes about how safe and friendly a fully Christian nation would really be.
Bcuz theyre the wrong kind of Christians; Catholics
Greece is also around 99% Christian
Pat Robertson told them that Haiti is full of devil worshipers.
Because about 55% (at its lowest estimate) of that Christian is Catholic. And believe it or not, a good portion of Christian denominations don’t consider Catholics as “real” Christians.
I remember when I first heard this many MANY years ago and just scratched my head.
No 'Thoughts' were requested when planning the mission.
WHY would an all-powerful god need the help of mere mortals?
Christians need to raise their standard of what constitutes a "god." Their god is weak and shameful, like a king or wanna-be dictator.
I ask myself that all the time. The usual apologetic is that he doesn’t need them but he wants them. As for why he wants them, I dunno.
Schizophrenic to boot.
...such as the repulsive aberration known as the Orange Turd.
Well these are the same people that think Trump is literally a messiah and that he never lies. When you're that far removed from reality there is no hope anymore...
It all depends on the context.
A position consistent with the biblical texts is that humans are not mere mortals but reflections of God. Mini-gods in training to become eternal gods.
In that context God gives humans the agency and responsibility to spread truth, even though the Divine could do it without human help.
So it is a God that is doing the best for the gods in training.
Should missionaries be aids and agents of a racist colonial system of power?
Certainly not and I would challenge the bona fides of any such missionary.
"urgent prayer needed" says it all.
"Prayer didn't work" says the rest.
And you can bet they prayed and look how it panned out!
Prayer. A bigger con than the religion itself. 🇦🇺🦘
In Mathew, Jesus says if you follow him and believe in him, he will grant, wait for it, "ALL" prayers, even if you pray for a mountain to be moved into the sea, no conditions. So we've just had an example of prayers not being answered, and how many times prayers have failed for individuals. 🇦🇺🦘
They obviously should have been asking for 'Thoughts' as well. That might have got them out safely before it got to this.
Part of the problem isn't that they think God was going to protect them, it's that Christianity romanticized martyrs. They make these tragedies sound like a good thing. Get an express way to heaven (trust us , it exists) and be a hero, an inspiration to Christians everywhere.
It's sick.
Are you speaking from experience?
I’m Christian and I feel the same way . Over the top Christian masochism, patriarchal misogyny and killjoy behavior was the reason I refused to join my mother’s church even though my great grandfather was a minister.
I just don't get how martyrdom leads to more converts. Surely that would put people off. Hearing about it constantly while in religion made me afraid I would be called to be a martyr. I wish I had sought help for this horrible phobia.
@@dancingnatureThe last straw for me was my Bible study leader telling me that I shouldn't listen to secular music from any genre. I left religion for the final time then.
Worship music is so dire and I don't care that it is now played on electric guitars and drums now instead of acoustic guitars or Hammond organs. The lyrics are horrible, most of the musicians lack musical talent and the music itself lacks rhythm, has long drown out notes and three chords at the most. Think of the worst song in the music charts in the second half of the 20th century and those worship songs would be even worse. You would need more musical talent to play in a covers band in a pub
For me leaving religion at first meant quiet quitting. I stopped reading Christian magazines and then stopped wanting to consume Christian entertainment as a result. It was a lot cheaper to turn on the radio and television and listen to secular chart music and borrow books from public libraries. That led to me being ostracised in evangelical Christians as I was no longer consuming the same entertainment. I started to emerge from the holy huddles, reduced my attendance at church and then left altogether.
@@lemsip207It's not too late.
In July 2023, the state department released a warning saying pretty much, "Very dangerous! Don't go there!!!" And they went there.
I hope young people will be discouraged from ever applying at that ministry in the first place.
Racism of religion
@@dominicfucinari1942 What makes this ministry different?
@@user-yl3mp7um6kexactly. They're all as bad as each other.
On the "Why were they in a country that's 94% Christian" aspect, it's right there in the graphic: Only 19% of all Haitians are Protestant Christians. The vast majority of missionaries--especially American missionaries--tend to be Protestants (without knowing the definitions of "unaffiliated Christians" and "Independents" from the Association, it's a bit tough to know if those groups engage in missionary activity). But Protestant missionaries tend to be particularly contentious against ANY Christian who's not part of their particular denomination (sure, they'll link up for political and social matters but on specific religious dogma matters, they'll fight over who's right and wrong) and they will insist on proselytizing OTHER Christians in order to spread their specific interpretation of the Gospel.
60%+ are Catholics, and when I was forced to church as a kid, evangelical (Pentecostal nonetheless), Catholics weren't Christians AT ALL. So yes, to them, Haiti is only 19% Christian, and that's why they're impoverished (we were told.)
Yep. This is almost certainly the answer. Many protestants do not regard Catholics as Christian.
Many a person has made the mistake of telling an evangelical Protestant they're Catholic, thinking they won't continue to proselytize a fellow Christian. Jokes on us, they simply see it as a challenge.
I read about history of missionaries in my area of MI back in frontier days. It must've been confusing to the Native Americans.First, the Catholics came and told them to get rid of their pagsn ways and to convert to Catholic religion. Then, Baptists came in and told them that Catholics are wrong type of Christians and to convert to Baptist sect. Then, the Methodists came and told them that Baptists are wrong, Catholics are wrong and to convert to Methodist church.
@@Jose-Gonzalez-cflironic as it's protestants who aren't Christians in fact they are the exact opposite
I'm a life long socialist, if i went round knocking on doors proselytising i would be arrested. How come the god bothers get a pass.
Delusional thoughts of *_They are the good guys._* perhaps. 🖖
Jesus Christ was a socialist. I'm a Roman Catholic, and I am also a socialist.
@@stevengarman4848 practice what you preach. Give all your worldly goods to the poor. Or is it Ceaser, I could never work that one out. But I was raisd a prod so maybe they were lying to me?
@@therealrobertbirchall .
But now there is the prosperity gospel, give to the rich, have faith and you will become rich yourself.
Or so the rich feeding off the poor will tell you.
@@grahvis that'll be God's version ot trickle down economics then.
A relative spent some time in Haiti after graduating from nursing school, humanitarian, not religious. She went a couple of times, but now won't go because of the danger. She loved it there, but not enough to risk her life.
They're imaginary god was supposed to protect them. Reminds me of that Asian guy who went to Sentinel Island to spread the gospel to a tribe that is the only one untouched on an island, and they unalive anyone that goes there. It's so sad they were brainwashed into nonsense and lost their lives.
... He mentioned him in the video
He died being stupid and selfish, trying to force his religion on people who just wanted to be left alone. I have no pity for him
Apparently he had already been warned away from the island and decided to go back. Killed by his own hubris and arrogance.
Apparently, God did not save them from their lack of common sense.
God doesn't want us to have common sense, nor logic. All he wants from each one of us is unquestionable obedience.
@@christophercarey3232can't control people who think for themselves.
@@dougm4160Yes like those American Arm dealers, those gang got illegal arms trafficked predominantly from the US their Christians neighbors.. Sad
Dressed as a seal to feed wild polar bears was a second choice.
If you read up on that missionary who went to North Sentinel Island, and was killed, his own father failed to talk him out of going.
Imo Missionary work is profoundly immoral, but people don't deserve to die.
Christians do.
@@theflyingwelshman5338What the fuck is wrong with you?
@@theflyingwelshman5338That's disgusting. Vile attitudes like yours we don't need.
What about the millions of dollars in aid they have given, the kids they have educated etc? Deeply immoral?
@@HaleyStark. All done to satisfy their savior complexes. Nothing Christians ever do is for goodness sake. There’s always a motive behind it. It’s sinister, and yes, that makes it immoral.
Must've been praying to the wrong god.
Let's try Ra, or Thor, or Zeus or.........😂😂
When I was forced to go to church as a kid, churchgoers used to say, "don't tempt god." That meant doing things against advice (government, medical, any) and against common sense. "God" put warnings there for a reason, and you chose to ignore him. Don't be cocky and stand in the middle of a war zone and expect god to protect you. He's not your personal babysitter.
I'm sorry and horrified for their loss and tragedy, and any missionaries here, or acquaintances, PLEASE TAKE HEED OF WARNINGS, especially government. There's always some other ways to help.
That characterization of Him is far superior to any sect who portrays Him as deploying people into the thick of danger.
The need for "don't tempt god" advice proves that all gods are mythical and that we live in a natural universe.
@@darlalathan6143 .
Along with "God moves in mysterious ways" and "God helps those who helps themselves".
So her dad works for the government, but they ignored the government warning.
Republican dad,
Democrat warning.
There is caveat with them’ we help you BUT you have to …’. Good deeds should not come with fine print
you have to... give up your faith if you want to sip our soup
Thats what they said to my ancestors in Ireland
Almost as if the presence of fine print makes the deed no longer good.
When you “know” you have a god protecting you reasonable thought may not be the priority.
God does not offer us protection, even from the perpetrations of others. To be a Christian is to be a man who is, metaphorically, dead while living. Our lives have intrinsic value in that we are made in the image of God, but not of such value that we will not be prepared to sacrifice them at any time.
The arguments made on this channel are the very arguments that so frustrated the Roman elites, "Why do you die when you could live?" The answer, then as now, also remains the same. "We do not fear the destruction of our bodies, for that is the worst that you can do to us." (Matthew 10:28)
And then when you die where's God? I can't fathom how these people think. Even if you pray for your protection it's clear God isn't interested in your protection 100% of the time.
@kaglet4963
He will be right where He has always been. All around the world, Christians die. Heart attacks, cancer, diabetes, car wrecks, murder, war, unfortunate accidents, and more all make away with Christians. If we were as protected as you say, our lives would be unending with health unfailing, energy unflagging, and bodies unaging. Great fantasy, but dreary reality.
Where is God? He is standing by our side, right where He has always been, waiting to welcome us to peace, rest, and a departure from the endless sufferings of this present life. Tragically, our family loses members, and in this case, two young people just starting out. However, no matter the years between departure and reunion, it will seem to have been nothing more than an inconvenient moment. And once we are reunited, we will never more be sundered.
Death for the Christian is not a matter of despair, though it is filled with grief and sometimes questions. It is also at times a cause of rejoicing, to know that our sundered kin are beyond sorrow, pain, and affliction. Why would we ever wish them back into a world of confused corruption and decay? It is better that they have gone, and the knowledge of their awaiting us makes the anticipation of our own severance from this dissolute house and ever growing pleasure.
It's like that tale about the guy on his roof during the flood and he turns down a boat and helicopter rescue because god is going to save him and when he dies and asks god why god didn't save him, god says 'i sent a boat and helicopter'. in this tale, god sent state department warnings about not going there....
The predominant religious sect in Haiti is Catholic @ 65.9% of the country. To Evangelical Christians, Catholics aren't Christians. Don't ask me why, as I was shocked to find this out a couple years ago
Never a true Scotsman fallacy 😂
Catholics are Christians no matter how much people scream and whine about it
It’s sad. They thought their god would protect them because they were evangelizing for him. And god did nothing… because he’s not real
Amen
Well said my friend 🎉
exactly
sad but true -the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I wonder how much blame falls on other around them. Selling them a lie that it wasn't that dangerous, or that God would protect them. Or just being young dumb and clueless.
You know they have to make sure everyone is following the "right" flavour of their favorite story.
Please note that i'm not saying that the chaos in Haiti is due ONLY to religion, but religion is certainly part of the problem.
I’ll put it another way: the chaos would not exist as it is without religion.
Ironically, Americans are a major part of the problem because people like these keep voting for people who won’t allow places like Haiti to drag themselves off the canvas, after being out there by colonialism in the first place.
They went to fix a problem their kind helped create, and failed.
@@dejus_ewhy are you projecting in youtube comments lil bro
It's a status symbol for young Christians to be missionaries in exotic places, that needs to stop. There's plenty of places here in the USA to be missionaries if they find it necessary to influence people.
Yes! And we have gang violence too -- in inner cities, suburbs, and economically left-behind rural areas as well.
Yes. The more dangerous the more clout. White savior syndrome
@@pechaa But but but the conservatives will tell you that rural areas have no problems. Even though most of them are wracked with meth, marijuana, heroin and prescription drug abuse and people talking all kinds of wacko meds. Furthermore they never talk about domestic violence or any other kind of violence in small towns and rural areas. It simply don't exist in the Republican or conservative mindset as if they live in a Leave It To Beaver era or Mayberry USA nonsensical mentality.
@@johnperry8808why did you include marijuana? Cannabis is medicine, not at all in the same category as heroin or opioids. In fact, that’s why Joe Biden’s administration is rescheduling cannabis. On all other parts of your statement on rural communities, I lived in them for half my life and there are many problems: child physical and sexual abuse, incest, racism towards any POC or marginalized group, sexism as if we still live in the 1950s, white male egos, religious superiority, small town police corruption, bullying, a few families trying to control everyone else, it’s pretty toxic.
@@johnperry8808
It’s not because they don’t think it exists, it’s because they often do some of those things (abuse especially is sadly common in very religious communities) and are trying to distance themselves from those actions.
I'm not surprised that Haiti is very violent, it is 94.26% Christian after all.
💐🦕💃⚔️🤔🐈⬛😼♥️☕🥖🧀🇪🇺🇺🇦🌈🏳️⚧️💐
Christianity isn’t causing the violence, did you know correlation doesn’t equal causation 😂
you clearly don’t know the history of haiti then
@@jessicaroberts521 So pray tell, what in the history of Haiti contradicts what I said, bare in mind the figure of 94.26% Christian is from the video we are commenting on, I have not the foggiest whether that is actually accurate, nor do I care but it seems very high and makes me wonder why missionaries would be going there. Personally I am not big on missionaries, as an atheist I think it is not for god botherers to travel the world converting very naive populations to a belief system that does not have their interests at heart.
I know little about the history of Haiti, but I know a lot about Christianity, the violence, the abuse and the intolerance that always goes with it.
So rather than just smugly say that I don't know crap about Haiti, inform somebody for once in your life, tell me about Haiti and why my comment is inaccurate or just plain wrong.
💐🦕💃⚔️👗🤔🐈⬛🐕😼♥️☕🥖🧀🇪🇺🇺🇦🌈🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈💐
@@Dino-1958 Basically, the missionaries from evangelical Protestant sects believe that of Catholicism is not a valid form of Christianity. It's easier to preach to Catholic than to try preaching to a Muslim or Buddhist country, or some other non-western religion.
Hello I’m a white Christian and I’m here to help…
Yummy, I am a bit peckish. 😈
You can help by staying home.
Every accusation is a confession, rightronnie?
@@07Flash11MRC for sure.
Thanks I am a black Christian and I appreciate it.
Just before the Vietnam war kicked off the church I went to got a new pastor. He and his family had been missionaries there.
They had been told it was going to be dangerous and they needed to leave.
That church took the governments advice.
The sad part of the story is that one of the pastor's kids after he grew up a little was drafted before the war was over and was sent to Vietnam and was killed there then.
What's sad is that pastors son went around the world to kill innocent people.
Ugh, that's terrible.
@@squeakhawk01
Yeah it was awful. They were a nice family. Two boys and a girl.
😢
What a terrible way for things to come full circle. Sad.
Sometimes it feels like the risk of dying is part of why they do it that way. Like.. Look at me! I'm willing to risk my life for my faith!
The whole missionary thing is an ego trip.
🎯. It's all for clout.
They would have been superstars when they returned, but now they’re martyrs.
All for literally doing nothing. Nothing.
Yeah and they are cool. You not so much. Matthew 28 19 to 21. You coward
This is what can happen when you think that God is going to protect you.
This story had many different potentials of being told, and you managed to walk that mind field and do a great job. Very impressive.
Onward Christian solders marching off to convert.
How many sacrifices will “God” demand so that he can be worshipped. A moral “Father” would want to keep his children safe!😢
If your religion is true. Why would you need to travel the world to spread it. Why would Jesus inspire a prophet in The North sentinel Island and the uncontacted in the Amazon.
I live in a major Canadian city over a million people and over 300,000 people have not or do not know about Jesus…. So your comment is kinda like huh? 🤔
Call me an old lady who's seen a lot of this. These "missions" know how perilous this is. The State department issues special warnings to them. I sometimes wonder if these tragedies bring an uptick in donations. I know it's cynical, and no disrespect intended to the victims; but...
I definitely agree. I think these types of things lend credibility to christians’ martyrdom narrative.
perfect example of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
Perfect example of jumping to conclusion. Go back to bed, kid.
@@CheckmateSurvivor
You're not being very Christian in all these comments, sweetie
@@Richard_Nickerson When and where did they make the implication that they're religious?
@@CheckmateSurvivor lol. they went there despite knowing what the situation is. it was pretty stupid from them, and we can see what happened.
i am not "jumping to conclusions", i am describing reality
@@lepapercastle
They're in multiple threads, sweetie.
Wait... 3 people died? Why are we only hearing about this couple?
That must be even more terrible for the family of the third person whom no one acknowledges.
And all of the other Haitian citizens that are dying there in droves every day.
@@ftt7429 I'd like to think that goes without saying, but yes, agreed.
Jude Montis was Haitian, so obviously doesn't count.
Catholicism doesn’t count to a lot of evangelicals.
Protestantism doesn't count to Catholics and rightly so.
I too don't want to "blame the victim" here, but come on. They knowingly passed the "Do not enter" sign. Then the next one "No really! Do not enter!" Then the next one and the next one. So, yes, there is a part of me with little sympathy for these people. But there's also an organization behind their decision that really should be brought to justice. Those people need to be behind bars.
Yes, mission organizations claim good intentions all the time, but what they are most adept at is meddling in ways that are disengenious, self-gratifying, and often destructive. Usually they're destructive to the people with whom they interact. In this case, the reverse occurred. Rare indeed, but the writing was on the wall. They ignored that message and an organization helped them don those blinders.
The "adults" who made this happen should be held to legal redress. Poor kids should not have been there
They were legal adults.
@elisabethpuck those who brainwashed them into doing this should be held accountable.
@@lepapercastle they were brainwashed members of a cult.
@@lepapercastleadults who believe in some stupid magical shit should not be considered legal adults
@SilverMKI I mean, there's no realistic way to break that down. It could've been a singular person, or several people over the course of their life.
Glad you're calling out the voluntourism. I remember reading about how young people from wealthy countries would go over to poor countries to build houses, and during the night, the locals would tear down what they'd built and rebuild it _properly_ because the tourists didn't know what they were doing... because they weren't builders. But the locals needed their investment, their money so they went along with this charade because it made the tourists feel good about themselves enough to invest resources, even while they themselves and their "helping" just got in the way. 🤮
Why are they all white tho?
Yeah, there are churches that the missionaries repaint several times a year.
You're a better person than I am.
I quite literally believe they got what they asked for, martyrdom.
GAWD sent me, Gawd wants me there, Gawd has a plan, Gawd will protect me.
They are in the middle of a war zone as one more body in the way.
I have severe issues with missionaries. To the point of gutteral distain.
The family didn't warn them not to go, the family would have insisted they go and signed the death certificate.
Who am I to argue with one (or two) less missionaries?
My daughter and her missionary preacher husband. They have some weird things going on. I can do nothing about it or if🎉 that their luck will hold.
I love her, but she has little to do with me and other because I'm a heathen. They have dragged them into not being around their own family because we don't think like others. Right now, they are in the states.
@Cookie-ri9pz My ex's son and d-i-l are radical christian creationists and MLM enthusiasts. Covid really set them off and we had to cut ties by 2021. Their constant sharing on social media and phone calls crossed the line into outright bullying. Even general questions about the grandchildren weren't safe.
Disdain*
Same
@@Cookie-ri9pzheart with you, all you can do, as much as it hurts, let them go, they are brainwashed.
sad to hear how many people are a better person than you then. you can acknowledge that they did something they shouldn't have without thinking they "deserved" to be unalived for it. they're still people.
Going to Vermont these conservative evangelicals might run into scary Bernie Bros 🤷🏼♂️
😂😂
That would be truly dangerous
They could try converting him.
Most short term missions are money-makers for their organizers. The typical thing the short termers in Nicaragua did was three days of workish stuff and the rest of the time at the beach, visiting Granada, and looking around town. We even had people who were hopitality and tourism majors running dental missions -- and they didn't require dentists as their short term visitors. Fortunately, we don't have so many now because the government requires full disclosures of finances.
Haiti has been a disaster since they gained independence from France in 1804, with only a short period of relative stability in the 1880's. The arrogance of missionaries to think they are safe because they are working for god is incredible. I don't care if the man grew up there, when gangs are involved you never know when are going to become violent. It was their arrogance that got them killed.
When I was a teen I went on 2 missions trips, once to Peru and once to Panama and I remember thinking I was doing AMAZING work. Truly helping these poor people not only have a better life now, but a better future with god...
holy shit looking back it was really awful. We did a little 30 minute drama in a town park, and told people they need to love jesus, and if they said yes, we'd connect them to a church in the area. The problem being if they left the church or like, struggle going for whatever reason, they were cut off from the help they were promised.
But more still was the absolutely disgusting "worship" nights we'd do as a missions group in our resort, yes we stayed in resorts. I remember one evening the guest speaker took to the stage, looked at 400 or so teens, ranging from 12-18 and thought "yes... let me show pictures of abortions, and really scar them for life." and proceeded to do just that. All the brainwashing, and scare tactics, emotional priming.
Missions trips are bad all around. I'm so glad I got out of the church when I did.
Prayer and faith won't stop bullets.
Same thought process behind snake handling, I suppose...
They'll be fine, because, "afterlife."
what is sad is the fact that some christian will make money on martyrdom
I detest all religious organisations, but I feel compassion for most young missionaries who have been brainwashed, guilted and pressured into serving missions. Remember, many of them would lose their family, friends and community if they decide not to do what is expected of them. The truly evil missionaries like mother Theresa, no compassion at all.
Hard to feel sorry for them. They were selfish and arrogant and reckless. They should have stayed at home.
I am sorry for this couple's demise, and agree that it never had to happen.
The part of missionary work that bothers me most, is those that subject their children to a life that they are not able to consent. If you wish to be a missionary, you should not have children, nor bring children into hostile environments. The reality that Haiti is 94% Christian, only emphasizes that the Christian religion cannot escape its underlying Colonization and violence.
Sadly, missionaries that die while doing missionary work, are viewed as martyrs. It sickens me to no end, that even their good deeds (education, medical care, feeding the hungry, etc.), still comes with the ulterior motive for conversion. To me, that is just preying on the weak and downtrodden to glorify their own selves, not to benefit the lives of those who are in need of life-saving (not spritual salvation).
The worse were a group that came down to play Christian music to the Nicaraguans, who have some really good musical traditions and are quite aware of world music.
Since it was mentioned,
I recommend the documentary "The mission".
It's about john chau, the guy who went to the sentinel isles.
People in his life told him not to go.
Not to be confused with a historical fictionalized film of the same name with DeNiro in 16th century S. America.
@@jeannerogers7085i was referring to nat geo documentary.
Was not aware the film you mentioned.
@@jeannerogers7085Who the fuck knows that guy
Reading up some more it becomes a bit more understandable - the father of Davy set up a mission church 20 yrs ago and they had an understanding with the local gangs who left them alone except for this outside gang who were looting what they could before international forces arrive.The church and bakery had been open and working fine until this event.
Having said all that, Davy and his sisters had been kidnapped when 5 yrs oldi n 2005! And his parents had been at the mission a few days before but his son declined to depart with them. So they knew the risks.
Wow! Where angels fear to tread......
Thanks for clarifying, makes more sense. However, Haiti is spiraling down so badly in recent history, that it's time to listen to authorities and not rely on previous experiences. All I hope is that other missionaries take heed and choose to help other ways. The Bible says plenty about following rules and laws.
I went to Haiti on a missionary trip back when I was 18. Thankfully the worse that happened was a cyclone threatened but I look back now and cringe that I was involved in something like that. But I did believe in god back then.
Just as well you didn't die for nothing like those two. They obviously worshipped the wrong "god".
Matthew 28 19 to 21. You coward
NGO Barbie is a hilarious take on what normally shows up to save some poor country from other people like them.
I'm in Kansas. A decade or two ago we had local missionaries killed. They had kids and started leaving them to go on years long missions, and our city was supposed to take care of the kids they didn't want. It's the most fucked up parenting I've ever heard of. They shouldn't spread their lies to anyone. The worst patents on earth and their church mourns them as heroes.🙄
I mean, let's be frank here. If you look at the picture of the couple and then look at a picture of your average Haitian citizen there's a fairly obvious reason why they figured they could "save" the people in Haiti (despite Haitians being largely already Christian)
I really wish that religious belief were that shallow because it would make it so much easier to deconvert people but it seems pretty clear that their beliefs are much deeper.
@@adamredwine774 Most of it for the short termers of high school age is for their college applications. Americans (USAnos) believe that they have better work ethic, better religion (or a better understanding of socialism or whatever) than the locals.
"Christian missionaries were killed in [Location]. They never should have been there."
Tale as old as time.
You, Hemant, are a little more charitable in your thinking than I am. I would not give missionaries the benefit of the doubt that they are "going in to help, to bring peace to people."
I feel that a lot of missionaries are like collectors, but instead of collecting cards or books or whatever, they collect conversions. There's also a big "white saviour" element to a lot of overseas missionary work.
Sadly, a 23 year old and a 21 year old who've grown up in the sort of denomination that these two appear to have belonged to tend to be very naïve. They appear to have grossly underestimated the danger or perhaps ignored the warnings entirely.
Don't forget the overweening sense of hubris, arrogance and superiority that these people are usually filled with as if the normal rules which everyone else follows don't apply to them.
It is so sad to see Haiti fall into complete chaos. There are so many good people stuck there. But Missionaries are often not helpful even if people have needs.
Haiti for pretty much most of its history has always been chaotic. 😢
A you offer some examples of ways in which specific missions do harm?
@@adamredwine774 Have you just nvr studied the history here? Are you just ignorin that they went to Haiti to convert Catholics to Protestants bcuz they believe Catholics are heretics?
Missionaries in my ancestral homeland came there when there was a great hunger imposed on our ppl by a colonisin force extractin our resources; and they made many of us give up our christian faith and convert to their one true christian faith, if we refused... We didnt get to eat their soup; we died or we fled our ancestral homeland
And thats in Ireland, a land that compared to many other colonised lands; fared quite well bcuz in the end, they were at least accepted as white ppl eventually
Its far worse in places like Haiti
Missionaries are colonialists, that's what's wrong @adam.
@@07Flash11MRC That is a factually incorrect statement that is easily checkable. That so many in this community are so fanatically defending this demonstrably false statement is humorous given the typical assertion that skeptics are more resistant to such group think.
Thanks for keeping us up to date Hemant
Why can’t people just try to help without trying to force their culture and beliefs onto people? It’s so arrogant…
One thing that would help would be encouraging our government to stop bribing people to try to put candidates the US picks in power. Visit as a tourist. Pay attention. Most USAnos (and I'm one) from left to right imagine that things can be fixed. Live in a place, wait a few years, make friends, and then ask what you can do to help.
Hope their families can overcome this tragedy...
The sad thing is that these people will probably be turned into martyrs and used to further religious rhetoric
It constantly makes me sad that there are trillions and quadrillions of dollars spent on missions and "charity" and keeping churches in business when all of it (or even a fraction of it!) could go to help people WITHOUT the reciprocation of converting to xtianity. People could just be kind for the sake of being kind and helping others get a leg up. But no, we have to tell this LIE to them about a magical man who lives in the sky.... SMDH
I grew up in the church, Pentecostal church of god, there is noting more important to Christians than being a martyr. Despite the teachings of love and spreading the gospel the main focus is always on being a victim. I'm not saying I am glad they died, I'm never glad to hear of anyone's death and it's a tragedy... but in the church I can guarantee these people are held high like a saint or deity, they're praised for their commitment to and for being the best victim you can be a martyr, because here in the U.S christianity is the majority and isn't really persecuted like they want themselves to be.
I wont cheer the deaths of people, and I sincerely feel for their loved ones, however, the thing that gets me the most about this sort of thing, is that many of the same people who will purposely place themselves in a dangerous situation, will victim blame as if it were their job. To even support people placing themselves in harms way, just to advertise their religion like cheap used car salesmen looking for a new market, could be considered immoral. Should we blame the church for sending them there in the first place? If you're going to blame a woman who was raped, for dressing `immodestly,` it only seems fair.
We have one rich guy who has built a feeding program for young Nicaraguan boy, in a very hot part of the country, where some communities lose a quarter or more of the men who work in sugar cane to early kidney disease. The gringo believes he is teaching Nicaraguan kids work ethics. Most Nicaraguans work very hard (some don't) and the idea of someone rich teaching them work ethics instead of tech skills that might make them decent money and encourage them to buy tractors if they're staying on the farms. Secular NGOs can be as bad. The religion isn't as much the issue as being oblivious to local conditions. Southern US heresies of Christianity preach resigning oneself to ones lot in life, subjugation of women and the lesser (I grew up in South Carolina). A lot of this (left as well Christian is white arrogance).
I'm sure they thought god would keep them safe.
Yes. It’s sad. I’m sure they were nice people who got caught in the crossfire. Condolences to their families.
@@SupportTheArts-yo8oxi agree.
😂😂😂
😂😂😂
@@gordongipson2538 what’s the joke?
So I'm from Missouri. This is a huge story around here. And it is heartbreaking seeing comments about how they died doing the right thing and how proud people are for them doing the lords work even if it cost then their life cuz it was gods plan anyways and they are with him now.
they got to meet their beloved jesus sooner...
Surprise! Paradise canceled on account of oblivion!
No need to be nasty. This is very sad and disturbing.
Ha ha 😂😂
@@SupportTheArts-yo8oxno it’s not.
@@SupportTheArts-yo8ox i am not nasty about it.
they wanted to go to an active anarchy place to lie about people about their invisible -skytyrant- "friend".
Thats what happens when you hold a bowl of rice behind a prayer wall.
“They thought they were doing good” In what way? Were they actually helping people to build houses? Were they bringing actual medical care? Ok, some missionaries do, but often they do a few token things, like make some sandwiches as a context for playing Jesus songs on guitars and telling the Haitian people all about a religion they already know about.
They could have set up food kitchens in the U.S. Many kids only get food at school so once school is out they go hungry. They could provide meals for the homeless and work on solutions to the housing crisis for the homeless. There is so much need here in our own country that's overlooked.
Your tag line reads exactly what my thoughts were when I first heard about this story.
Once again, god drops the ball.
The Bible tells you to spread the word, Ok you would think if God wanted you to do that, he would protect you in the process. Hmm it's almost like he never existed how about that lol
Hi namesake 👋
@@DavidSmith-vr1nb lol 👋
What is the point of your comment?
" I'm right, you're wrong. Hehaharharheh."
Maybe you are right, but this isn't the way to go about it.
@@lepapercastlewhat’s the point of your comment? “I’m a gatekeeping virtue signaler”?
Your comment was fine until the “lol”. You might want to think about the literal meaning of “lol”.
Oh she's dressed like she's from the crazy religion i grew up in. That makes me even more sad and even more angry. I love my friends and family in that church and I hate it's toxic beliefs.
I have no sympathy for these people it’s sad, and their own stupidity got them killed.
"Urgent prayer needed".
What do these people think?
I know from my past that even groups like the Assemblies of God have home missions boards. They could've "worked" here.
Years ago HCJB radio set up a fully functioning hospital in Quito, Ecuador. Some....SOME missions do a good job. But they are so infrequent these "missions" often do more damage than good.
Groups such as Doctors Without Borders does the same if not more good and they have no religious requirements and they provide care without judgment or proselytizing.
@@EmpressMermaid Médecins Sans Frontières does a far better job, donation-wise, than any missions organisation. I've donated to these kind of groups over the past 40 years than any religious group. Plus, being transgender, I won't give assistance to people who think I shouldn't exist, now!
@obnoxious_atheist Good point about that issue, too. Living in a small Southern town, I'm constantly bombarded with fundraisers for church mission trips. Ugh! I hate dealing with those folks. Since I'm in Florida, there are many diaspora Haitian organizations who already have the networks and connections to offer true aid where it is needed. (You have to check them out, though, because sadly, wherever there is tragedy, there are also loads of scammers)
Some of the missionaries do some good, but they tend to pay no better than the local upper class prats who bitch at me for paying transient helpers too much in Nicaragua.
@@obnoxious_atheist The test I use is whether or not the group is run by a professional in what the work of a mission is. Doctors Without Borders, Engineer Without Borders are so run.
“Haiti is 94% Christian.” They don’t need more “faith” in magic or fairytales.
They need TRUTH, logic, and reason. Not “missionaries.”Sad…😢
And that is the quiet part no one is saying--,what were they doing there in the first place, they should have been either restricted/denied entry or evacuated.
US gov. used to run evacuation services for free. Now it's buy space on a charter plane.
I have no sympathy for them.
Spreading bullshit to people they consider sub standard should be outlawed.
This did not need to happen.
The sad thing is that theists have convinced themselves that just hearing the words of the bible will suddenly make everything better. Like it has some literal magical power.
Per an article on NPR, the couple had been in Haiti since August of 2022. The young man, Davy Lloyd, was the son of the missionaries who ran the orphanage, school and church for the organization (Missions in Haiti, Inc) there, and he and his siblings had grown up in Haiti. His mother was able to fly out of the country and back to the US a month ago. It sounds like the father and younger son went back with her, but as soon as flights were available back into Port Au Prince, the two of them went back to Haiti. Jude Montis, the third victim, was the director of Missions in Haiti, Inc.